So Atlanta is 1-2 right now and it got me thinking...
What if Atlanta were to have the wheels come of and end up at say 2-14, giving us the number one pick next year. And what if we somehow scrape out 9-7... Would You draft Luck? Which way would you go.
I'm torn. I wouldn't want the QB controversy but how do you pass on Luck? A stud right tackle, a star WR or a beast at LB all being our bigger needs.
I know it's highly unlikely, but at least we can dream. Thoughts?
Andrew Luck right now...if that were the case, i think would be more valuable to us as trade bait than anything else. You know what we could get for him?
Seattle, San Fran (especially with their coach), Indy, Washington (maybe? i think Sexy Rexy will level off back to typical Rexy), Denver (i know another 1st rounder? well Fox didnt pick any of em), KC, and Miami all have pretty terrible QBs...you could leverage each team against each other and drive the price so far skyward that we could do unbelieveable things.
Don't count us out of the Luck sweepstakes. If I had to guess right now, I'd say we'll be in the bottom of the top 10 ... but I would be somewhat surprised if Seneca Wallace isn't at the helm for at least two games this year.
I'm all for enjoying the fact that we're 2-1, but let's not forget that our two wins have come against bad teams that don't have a win between them. It's very rare to get a W with the kind of offense we put out there today. We stole one.
Worst case scenario is that you have 2 really top quality QBs, with one becoming a major trade piece. You could also have a quality backup in case what happened to Manning happens to us. We would also be further protected if McCoy busts out. Like it or not, that is still a very real possibility.
I don't see this team and front office passing up a guy who is a franchise type QB. If they feel that he is a franchise QB, we'll take him no matter what else we have at the position.
but what about when Colt throws his first int and everyone boos and calls for Luck...
I would want nothing to do with having 2 QBs that are surefire starters on my roster again...After the Quinn/DA debacle, and whats going on in Denver right now...no way. I wouldnt do that to my QB or team.
Colt is our starter for the forseeable future, and if as oldcold says we go 9-7, weve got our QB and things will only improve with him...leverage with other teams that need him and will give up a lot for him.
And like I said there. You take Andrew Luck and don't look back.
Colt looks like a backup QB to me, but at his best he's a Matt Hasselbeck "game manager" type of starter. He'll never be an elite "franchise" QB in the NFL.
Andrew Luck is the best QB prospect to come out since....I don't even know, probably John Elway. You do not pass on John Elway just because you have a maybe Matt Hasselbeck. This is a no brainer.
If we don't "earn" the #1 pick through our own record or Atlanta's I'd have 0 problem trading up to get Luck.
Take him and don't look back. Then receivers to replace a few of ours. Not sure Colt is the cure, though yesterday was a real treat/heartstopper. Luck and no regrets. QUestions: When do you get another shot at this caliber? And what would it cost down the road if somebody else owns him ITO picks, cash, trades? Not sure how much more "reasonable" a Luck is with new rules in place, but moreso now than pre-lockout.
Quote: Don't count us out of the Luck sweepstakes. If I had to guess right now, W'd say we'll be in the bottom of the top 10 ... but I would be somewhat surprised if Seneca Wallace isn't at the helm for at least two games this year.
I'm all for enjoying the fact that we're 2-1, but let's not forget that our two wins have come against bad teams that don't have a win between them. It's very rare to get a W with the kind of offense we put out there today. We stole one.
And, yes, I take Luck. No question.
I can't believe I'm NOT the most pessimistic poster in a thread
Look, MIA...in that spot yesterday, was a pretty tough matchup...our D came up BIG and won that game for us...and not only with the final stop...the numerous stops and RZ stops before...most will give the Offense credit for the W but with even an AVG or just decent D performance we'd be down 2+ score before that last drive
That said, while we didn't really "deserve" the W, we still won somehow...and I might add that this "somehow" was a pretty nice drive capped with a very accurate EZ throw...MIA gave Colt the underneath, typical not to lose style...why they did that after owning Colt with more agressive play calling before is probably 1 of the reasons Sparano will get fired soon, but that's not our problem...Colt took it and then saved his best "throw" (I know it was an ugly wobbler but the accuracy and timing was remarkable) for last....he and the Offense were opportunistic...I completely agree that we'd have lost to most AVG teams and probably even the Ohins 8 out of 10 times but hey I really don't care at this point...
I understand we still looked awful BUT I saw improvement, esp. on D but also on Offense...the run worked better than before and that playing the toughest front 7 to date..that's improvement and Colt, while looking completely overwhelmed and uncomfortable in the pocket most of the game...at least STAYED in the pocket most of the time...he won't get better there if he doesn't start playing there and as ugly as it was he finally at least TRIED to do what he's supposed to do and what probably Shurmur urged him to do...STAY IN THE POCKET and be a real NFL QB...I still think it's a necessary step back short term to get better long term...will pocket-Colt outperform joystick-Colt? That remains to be seen but he's trying and I haven't seen this committment before...if he runs around and plays "his way" he's just a backup QB that won't last 5 consecutive games with all the hits he's gonna take running outside the tackles
There's lots of negatives to trash Colt for in that game but I won't go there righ now because it wouldn't be fair...I criticized him for still playing CFB QB style and will do so going forward but if he committs to be a real QB I'm willing to give him more leeway as it's completely NEW to him...but it's necessar to even have a shot at taking the next step...I'm still critical that he can do it but gotta give him props for taking coaching, self-criticism and tenacity...he might be 1 of those longshot guys who comes through, who knows. I'm looking forward to assess his game from the pocket...before that he was a circus QB with no real hope...now there's at least the chance of hope
I still can't believe not being the most negative poster for once....feels good to give out hope for a change
Oh, I forgot...I'd still take Luck and not look back in that scenario...as much as Colt might improve I don't think he'll be "no brainer" material at years end just yet..draft Luck, play Colt if he has deserved more looks...thanks to the new CBA you can take shots at QBs high now without franchise money committment, so just go BPA, and if that's Luck, Luck it is
Quote: but let's not forget that our two wins have come against bad teams that don't have a win between them.
Those two teams have lost 6 games, two of them to the Browns.... then the Dolphins lost to the Patriots after playing right with them into the 4th quarter, the Texans after playing right with them into the 4th quarter and the Colts just took the Steelers to the final 8 seconds using Painter as their QB in the second half...
I would want nothing to do with having 2 QBs that are surefire starters on my roster again...After the Quinn/DA debacle, and whats going on in Denver right now...no way. I wouldnt do that to my QB or team.
When did we have "surefire" starters? Maybe surefire for the Browns, but not for anyone else.
You are going to get varied opinions on this one.. To take Luck or Not is the question.
If you look around the league as it sits right now (casting aside players that are injured) How many QB's in the league that were drafted either 1st, 2nd or 3rd overall are winning and doing well? (again, including Manning)
You have Payton Manning, Eli Manning and That's it. Bradford had a good year last year but isn't all that and a bag of chips this year.
Who else was drafted in the top three that is playing and playing well?
The answer to that might tell you what the odds are for success with a 1st overall QB pick.
Somebody is going to give you a boat load of picks for Luck.... More so than ever before because the cap is in place for Rookies... No HUGE money to pay out....
Heckert has been drafting well, so ya gotta think about what he may be able to do with 3 or 4 extra high picks this year and next?
Could he fix everything else that's wrong with this team.. LBer's, RT, one more DE, WR or maybe even another DB.
I think you gotta weigh that against the risk of taking Luck in the #1 spot..
neither atlanta nor cleveland is going to win 2 or less games, which will likely be required to draft Luck.
so, let us enjoy the fact that the Browns have a great shot at 3-1 (Britt injured, CJ still finding his way into shape. they have a good defense, but they would be just as big of a 3-1 surprise as the Browns)
Quote: You have Payton Manning, Eli Manning and That's it. Bradford had a good year last year but isn't all that and a bag of chips this year.
Who else was drafted in the top three that is playing and playing well?
Rivers is pretty good, Stafford is playing well and getting better every week, Michael Vick is playing pretty well when not hurt, Matt Ryan was 3rd overall and he's pretty good, Ben Roethlisberger was 11th overall pick and he's won 2 super bowls, Mark Sanchez was 5th overall....
So does it have to be a top 3 pick? No, but there is certainly some evidence that top 10ish QBs do better than other QBs...
All that said, I doubt either us or Atlanta are in position to draft him outright and I'm not in favor of giving anything up to move up.
Quote: We could take Luck, at probably the cost of both #1s and likely a #2.
OR, we could get a top-10 (NFL Talent) DE, a very good LB, plus a solid RT and WR. I'll go with that.
That's my thinking... I also think that if we did fall into that spot we could trade it and have 2 number 1s this year, a couple number 2s, another 1 next year and probably more...
I know it's early but look at the early impressions of Taylor, Sheard and Little and imagine 4 first round picks in the next two years and 3 or 4 second round picks... and what we could look like in a couple years...
I know this is a hypothetical situation (Atlanta going 2-14) but let's be real here, there's no freaking way they don't win at least 8-9 games. So I can't really get to a place to talk about what we would do if the Falcons imploded and we got the #1 overall draft slot.
Even if they finish 6-10 and we are 7-9/8-8 (some good, some bad games by Colt) I wouldn't think we'd have enough to move up to take Luck and I'm not sure I'd want to anyway. Give me a stud RT, two LBs and another WR.
Quote: We could take Luck, at probably the cost of both #1s and likely a #2.
OR, we could get a top-10 (NFL Talent) DE, a very good LB, plus a solid RT and WR. I'll go with that.
I don't. Not in the NFL today. It's 110% a QB league. You have a franchise QB and you're making the playoffs. You don't have a franchise QB and you have to have an elite OLine AND elite RB AND an elite D AND have some good luck with injuries.
I'd trade the entire '86 Bears D for a franchise QB. The real question is, is Luck truly a franchise QB of that caliber? Meaning top 5-10 QB in the whole NFL. If he is, you trade the farm and take him regardless of the cost. If he's not then pass and keep the farm and continue to build.
Quote: I'd trade the entire '86 Bears D for a franchise QB. The real question is, is Luck truly a franchise QB of that caliber? Meaning top 5-10 QB in the whole NFL. If he is, you trade the farm and take him regardless of the cost. If he's not then pass and keep the farm and continue to build.
I'm not bagging on your comment BUT....
#1 You don't know if Luck is that franchise guy. It's not a simple question of yes or no....nobody knows and won't know until he plays a few seasons in the NFL. #2 Even if you could know if he was a franchise QB, nobody would trade out of the #1 overall spot in that situation (unless they already had a top 5 franchise QB). And nobody will be sitting #1 overall with a franchise QB already on their roster. Like you said, if you have one....you make the playoffs or are in contention, not 2-14 with the #1 pick.
Quote: I'd trade the entire '86 Bears D for a franchise QB. The real question is, is Luck truly a franchise QB of that caliber? Meaning top 5-10 QB in the whole NFL. If he is, you trade the farm and take him regardless of the cost. If he's not then pass and keep the farm and continue to build.
I'm not bagging on your comment BUT....
#1 You don't know if Luck is that franchise guy. It's not a simple question of yes or no....nobody knows and won't know until he plays a few seasons in the NFL. #2 Even if you could know if he was a franchise QB, nobody would trade out of the #1 overall spot in that situation (unless they already had a top 5 franchise QB). And nobody will be sitting #1 overall with a franchise QB already on their roster. Like you said, if you have one....you make the playoffs or are in contention, not 2-14 with the #1 pick.
Unless your top 5 QB had a season ending injury before the season started.
And in that case, Indy probably picks Luck for the future. If they can't get Luck to go along with that plan, they trade out for the highest bidder. IMO, we aren't good enough to give up our 2012 and 2013 drafts for a coinflip QB prospect.
We have two first and fourth rounders, lets draft BPA with our six picks in the first four rounds and go from there. Heck, we could also find a QB with one of our two first rounders if Colt continues to play erratic ball.
I've already signed off that Luck won't be in a Browns uniform. And I don't really care. I want a stronger O-line, new LBs and another Haden. We can sign a WR in the offseason. Done.
If I'm Luck and I have a chance to join the worst team in the NFL as the #1 pick, the chance that it happened to be Indy would be delightful, being that you know it's a fluke, and you get to tutor behind a sure HoF QB in Manning for a couple years. Similar to Rodgers in GB.
A lot less pressure to come in and "right the ship" so to speak, as a sure B/U to Manning.
To me, that would be the ideal situation, if I'm a #1 draft pick.
Quote: The real question is, is Luck truly a franchise QB of that caliber? Meaning top 5-10 QB in the whole NFL. If he is, you trade the farm and take him regardless of the cost. If he's not then pass and keep the farm and continue to build.
Obviously there is no crystal ball that let's you know that. If there was a guarantee I think all but a handful of teams would be willing to trade whatever they needed in order to get him but there is always the risk that he is not. The scout grading they showed the other night rate him at a 99, which is almost perfection by draft standards and it's higher than Newton, higher than Stafford, even higher than Manning when he came out... so by their measure, he is as close to a sure thing at QB as you can get.
Quote: You have Payton Manning, Eli Manning and That's it. Bradford had a good year last year but isn't all that and a bag of chips this year.
Who else was drafted in the top three that is playing and playing well?
Rivers is pretty good, Stafford is playing well and getting better every week, Michael Vick is playing pretty well when not hurt, Matt Ryan was 3rd overall and he's pretty good, Ben Roethlisberger was 11th overall pick and he's won 2 super bowls, Mark Sanchez was 5th overall....
So does it have to be a top 3 pick? No, but there is certainly some evidence that top 10ish QBs do better than other QBs...
All that said, I doubt either us or Atlanta are in position to draft him outright and I'm not in favor of giving anything up to move up.
Top ten,, sure, that increases the sample size,,, But when you are talking about taking a QB at #1,,, you gotta wonder.. is it worth it.
Having said that, this year is a year where we will find out if Colt McCoy is real.. If the FO and Coaches come away thinking he is,, then you can bet we won't take Luck if we end up in a position to do so.
Of course, if we are in that position, the answer is, Colt isn't good enough...LOL
that's just a guess of course.. We could get it with Atlantas pick! We would win 12 games and be heading to the playoffs and if Atlanta is the worst in the league we could still end up with the #1 pick.. That would be a hoot...
Quote: We could get it with Atlantas pick! We would win 12 games and be heading to the playoffs and if Atlanta is the worst in the league we could still end up with the #1 pick.. That would be a hoot...
And if that happens, then it means Colt played pretty darn good so you trade the pick and gash another team for all of their other picks.
Quote: We could get it with Atlantas pick! We would win 12 games and be heading to the playoffs and if Atlanta is the worst in the league we could still end up with the #1 pick.. That would be a hoot...
And if that happens, then it means Colt played pretty darn good so you trade the pick and gash another team for all of their other picks.
LOL Exactomundo! Is that not the perfect scenario?
Quote: I can't envision a realistic scenario where I don't take Andre Luck if he is on the board.
I cannot imagine a scenario where he is on the board when we pick, period.
There are still FIVE teams without a single win... and none of those five are Cleveland or Atlanta, and four of those five (includes Indy) will absolutely be interested in Luck. The only one I don't see being fully interested is St. Louis because they just paid a boatload for taking Bradford #1 overall.... the rest are completely in play.
I can see Indy, Miami, KC and Minny all trying to tank and go 0-16.
I don't think that takes them out of the running. They obviously can't be convinced Ponder is the answer already. His contract is not too big and if they do finish with the worst record they could probably sell him for a second.
Cassel has a deal through 2014, with a total of $28 million in guarantees.
I also don't know that he is at fault for what's happening in KC. He's thrown more INT than TD so far this year .... but he's still completing 65% of his passes. His team lost to the 2 big surprise teams this year, Detroit and Buffalo, and the 3rd team they played is a pretty good San Diego team.
the issue with KC is they didn't even compete for the first 2.5 games. finally, in the 2nd half of the SD game they came back but fell short (even then, they had some of the worst coaching down the stretch to try to botch the comeback attempt).
Yeah ... so ownership may decide that coaching needs changed more than the QB. (especially since the QB has had success with 2 different teams, including his current team)
However, KC had fewer passing yards last year than we did. Cassell did have 27 passing TD though.
they also have the NFLs best running attack (which did not seem to be there this year even before Charles got hurt).
Cassel is more of a game-manager type in that he typically won't lose you a game, but doesn't really win you a game either. But, this year, he hasn't been good at all. Even without their best offensive (Charles) and defensive (Berry) players though, they have too much talent to end up in the first 3 picks of the draft. I suspect they will win a few games at some point.
Quote: I know this is a hypothetical situation (Atlanta going 2-14) but let's be real here, there's no freaking way they don't win at least 8-9 games. So I can't really get to a place to talk about what we would do if the Falcons imploded and we got the #1 overall draft slot.
What if Matt Ryan gets a season ending injury next week?
Quote: I know this is a hypothetical situation (Atlanta going 2-14) but let's be real here, there's no freaking way they don't win at least 8-9 games. So I can't really get to a place to talk about what we would do if the Falcons imploded and we got the #1 overall draft slot.
What if Matt Ryan gets a season ending injury next week?
What if Colt does?
Seneca takes us to 9-7 and we make the playoffs.. Now What?
OR
Seneca takes us to 4-12 and we get the #1 pick... Now What?
Quote: What if Luck stays in college for his senior season?
then Carolina would draft Cam Newton instead of Luck. did you mean, what if Luck didn't stay for his senior season?
hypotheticals are fun barstool debates. if you don't like them, then that is fine, but do not come and hijack threads to express your disdane. it's like saying you don't like the beer at a party and proceeding to dump it down the drain rather than just let everyone else enjoy it
well then. dang, college kids seem to stay around forever (doesn't it feel like kellen moore was the starting QB for Boise vs. Oklahoma in their first big win?)
If Colt doesn't show he "could" be the man whether though performance or by injury then you take Luck.
If he progresses enough though the year that when the season ends we are all thinking: Yes he is the man. Then you don't take Luck.
The problem comes if Colt shows enough to make it impossible to say: No Colt isn't the answer but does show just enough to say: Huh, maybe he could be yet not quite enough to be convincing.
It always felt like JJ Redic and Diana Turasi were in college forever...
When they're that good from when they first satrt, they are around for much longer...
Unless Luck BARELY misses a National Title/Heisman this year and thinks he can get one next year, what reason does he have to come back? (Ignoring the actual reasons peopel go to college)
Quote: What if Matt Ryan gets a season ending injury next week?
Quote:
What if Colt does?
At this point in Colt's developing career I don't think we lose a whole lot going to Wallace even though in the long run I think Colt will be a whole lot better.
Us losing Colt doesn't compare to a lot of other teams losing their starter, not right now.
Quote: What if Luck stays in college for his senior season?
then Carolina would draft Cam Newton instead of Luck. did you mean, what if Luck didn't stay for his senior season?
hypotheticals are fun barstool debates. if you don't like them, then that is fine, but do not come and hijack threads to express your disdane. it's like saying you don't like the beer at a party and proceeding to dump it down the drain rather than just let everyone else enjoy it
Fair point.
Nah, I didn't mean to poo-poo on this thread. Just trying to add a little humor. And like CleveSteve said, I thought Luck was a red-shirt junior meaning he could stay one more season after this (not likely, but another "what if?).
I've been wondering how Atlanta would do and they're really not looking all that good.
I don't know about the wheels falling off, but if Ryan went down or if Roddy White went down, they'd be in some serious trouble and the Browns could very well be drafting high.
Also, it was brought up, I don't remember where (maybe on Bruce Drennan's show) about the weaker schedule they had last year than this year. Not unlike our schedule when we went 10-6 with Anderson as the QB.
They have lots of talent on that team but with the likes of the Saints and Tampa Bay in their division, it's going to be tough for them to win too many divisional games. Was Julio Jones worth all that when they have Roddy White & Tony Gonzalez on the team?
Looking at their schedule, I can see them winning 5 or 6 games. Even if they win two more than that, they still give us a pick in the top half of the first round.
Quote: So Atlanta is 1-2 right now and it got me thinking...
What if Atlanta were to have the wheels come of and end up at say 2-14, giving us the number one pick next year. And what if we somehow scrape out 9-7... Would You draft Luck? Which way would you go.
I'm torn. I wouldn't want the QB controversy but how do you pass on Luck? A stud right tackle, a star WR or a beast at LB all being our bigger needs.
I know it's highly unlikely, but at least we can dream. Thoughts?
I don't know how to rate QBs but if what they say about him (best QB to come out in 10 years, comparsions to Peyton Manning) then I'd take him in a heartbeat and trade Colt for 2nd or 3rd rounder after year 1
I don't know if Andrew Luck would be any good or any qb for that matter, I'm not a guru, I liked a few before the draft.
Wow just imagine the Browns with a really good quarterback, No I mean a really good one, Like one of the best ever? WOW
It was one thing in 99 when they took couch and had little around him, and he was the best ( haha) 3 or 4th or 5th best qb taken that year, took him 1st overall.
Take a look at Packers qb, he wasn't any good for his first 2 and a half years, but nobody wants to admit it, now he may be the best in the league, and he was taken pretty much in the top, (ok he drifted in the draft but he was the 2nd qb taken that day) followed by my favorite that year, Mark Cambell, and then Matt Jones who played receiver.
All's I'm saying is, Current Browns QB, is pretty good, but he ain't in the Hall of fame, ... Check this out, How many 300 yd or 400 yd passing days will he have this year? Ya!
If they had a chance to actually get a franchise Qb, I don't care if they want to get him next April and wait 3 more years with Colt, If they can get a coach and a quarterback, maybe they can Win a Superbowl, or even Make a Superbowl.
Hey in 99, NOt only did you have Couch! You also had Akili Smith! and Cade McKnown, and somebody else, ... but you also might have had Donovan McNabb, and I think he might still be in the league, and he made it to one superbowl.
If you can get a quarterback, GET A QUARTERBACK, I like the one they have now, but , Do you think defenses aren't going to start noticing his only TD throws come after a long scramble to the right side and in the right corner? I'd like to make them defend both sides of field, but hey it's only the NFL!
Atlanta! ... Nobody has put up their remaining schedule yet. at seattle Green bay Carolina at Detroit bye week at Indianapolis New Orleans Tennessee Minnesota at Houston at Carolina Jacksonville Thurs at New Orleans MN Tampa Bay If they make the playoffs it doesn't matter how many losses they have, it matters how far they advance.
Quote: Take a look at Packers qb, he wasn't any good for his first 2 and a half years, but nobody wants to admit it,
He threw about 50 total passes in his first 3 years because he sat behind Brett Favre... in his first full season as the starter he threw for over 4000 yards and 28 TDs and 13 INTs... what exactly are you talking about?
Quote: Hey in 99, NOt only did you have Couch! You also had Akili Smith! and Cade McKnown, and somebody else, ... but you also might have had Donovan McNabb, and I think he might still be in the league, and he made it to one superbowl.
Donovan McNabb would have been a forgotten man just like Couch if he had come here, don't kid yourself.
Quote: Do you think defenses aren't going to start noticing his only TD throws come after a long scramble to the right side and in the right corner?
Except for the scramble to the left when he threw the TD to Evan Moore... and the two he threw from the pocket last week... except for those 3, the other 2 were scrambles to the right...
Except he's a smart kid and has already made it widely known that he's graduating with his degree this year. So...yeah it might as well be his senior year. He IS coming out for the 2012 draft 100%.
That would really upset the teams "sucking for Luck".
I guess there is a Twitter account with that name or something. Supoosedly it's very funny. I don't understand Twitter so I haven't really looked at it.
If I was Luck in that situation, "Go ahead and pick me, I won't report, you'll waste a pick and then I'll re-enter the draft next season. I can play one more season at Stanford. Eat it."
Bo Jackson did it. And like I said, Eli forced a trade....so could Luck.
As much as we crack jokes about the Bengals, I don't see them being "#1 overall pick in the 2012 draft" bad. Now the Phins? Sure.
Quote: But, could he really trust Mike Brown to trade the pick and not take him anyway after how he handled the Carson Palmer situation?
I wouldn't!
Did anyone hear Boomer Esiason talk about the Palmer issue on Sunday.
Someone on the panel called Palmer a quitter and Esiason said he doesn't blame him for wanting out of there.. LOL and Esiason was there when the bengals were at least respectable...think about it,,they were winning and Boomer still thought it was a joke down there.
Mike Brown has ruined that team. he's the problem, not the solution.
Quote: If I was Luck in that situation, "Go ahead and pick me, I won't report, you'll waste a pick and then I'll re-enter the draft next season. I can play one more season at Stanford. Eat it."
Once you declare, you can't then go back, right? Especially after you've been drafted...
I think Bo got drafted by the Yucks, went and played baseball, then got drafted by the RRRRRRaiders... Different story.
Quote: But, could he really trust Mike Brown to trade the pick and not take him anyway after how he handled the Carson Palmer situation?
could he really trust the Bengals to not have the #1 overall pick again the next year
and OSGuy - he doesn't have to declare until mid-January. at which time, he will know who owns the rights to the #1 overall NFL pick (barring trades of course)
49ers - Hook up with your old coach (though they did just draft Capernick in the 2nd, ...why again did they do that?)
KC - Solid run game, average defense, coaching is questionable
Miami - Probably ganna be wiped clean this offseason (if not sooner)
Colts - Take over, or learn from one of the best ever, but, is there really anything else there?
What I'm trying to get at, are there any Atl, or Baltimore type teams, that he could be plugged in to and have success right away? (Besides Cleveland of course )
Quote: What I'm trying to get at, are there any Atl, or Baltimore type teams, that he could be plugged in to and have success right away? (Besides Cleveland of course )
There are a lot of teams that would be made immediately better with a QB as good as Luck is supposed to be but none of them are going to come close to drafting #1.
Why Atl and Baltimore? Are you referring to them picking Flacco? He was the 18th pick in the draft, obviously the Ravens weren't THAT bad when they drafted him... and the Falcons picked up Michael Turner and a couple of defensive pieces and a new coach the year they drafted Matt Ryan 4th... so I guess it's hard to say but I don't see anybody likely to be in the Luck Lottery as ready to make an immediate move to playoff contender.
Quote: If I was Luck in that situation, "Go ahead and pick me, I won't report, you'll waste a pick and then I'll re-enter the draft next season. I can play one more season at Stanford. Eat it."
Once you declare, you can't then go back, right? Especially after you've been drafted...
I think Bo got drafted by the Yucks, went and played baseball, then got drafted by the RRRRRRaiders... Different story.
I thought it all depends on if he signs with an agent. As long as he doesn't do that, he can go back. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
Personally, if I was Luck here is where I would want to go (of the teams that could get the #1 overall pick):
1. Indy - plenty of offensive fire-power. O-scheme is incredibly complicated and impossible to pickup for a FA QB like Collins as everything was line adjustements and route adjustments with Peyton pulling the strings. But, the talent is there (on offense) and he could learn the system from Peyton.
2. SF - old coach, talent at RB/WR/TE plus they have invested in OL in the draft as well. as mentioned, his old Stanford coach and he gets to stay in NoCal where he is comfortable.
3. Minnesota - Luck paired up with Peterson. Develop a play-action pass and go from there.
4. Miami - alot of pieces, but they do need a reboot I think. OL is better run blocking than pass, but they have the WR talent and it could be a quick turnaround there if the right decisions are made (despite the tough division)
Quote: If I was Luck in that situation, "Go ahead and pick me, I won't report, you'll waste a pick and then I'll re-enter the draft next season. I can play one more season at Stanford. Eat it."
Once you declare, you can't then go back, right? Especially after you've been drafted...
I think Bo got drafted by the Yucks, went and played baseball, then got drafted by the RRRRRRaiders... Different story.
I thought it all depends on if he signs with an agent. As long as he doesn't do that, he can go back. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
IIRC, A player can pull back up till a certain point in time, then he is in the draft, and gives up his eligibility.
Declaring NFL teams can't draft an underclassman unless he has declared himself eligible for the draft. Players wishing to enter the draft must submit to the league a signed and notarized petition renouncing all their remaining college eligibility. The deadline for declaring for the draft is Jan. 15. The draft is usually held in late April.
Backing Out The standard draft petition includes a clause allowing the player to revoke the petition within three days of the NFL's draft declaration date. That means a player has until Jan. 18 to back out and return to college football. The NCAA, which writes the rules for college football, allows college players to "test the waters" like this one time while they are in school. However, if a player makes any kind of agreement, oral or written, to be represented by a player agent, or accepts anything from an agent or anyone working for an agent, the NCAA will void all his remaining eligibility. When Clarett lost his court case in 2004 and was thus barred from the draft, he was unable to return to college football for this reason.
Quote: I wish there was a Draft Order calculator so I could keep tabs on who's pick is where every week...
Ask and you shall receive. Granted I don't know about teams that have traded away their 1st round pick (such as Atlanta to us), but here is the up-to-date 2012 draft order. Rankings are based on 1) Winning Pct 2) Strength of Schedule 3) Division Win Pct 4) Conference Win Pct 5) Coin Flip. Two teams listed for the same number indicate a tie after the first 4 categories which would require the coin flip.
1. St Louis Rams 2. Indianapolis Colts Miami Dolphins 4. Minnesota Vikings 5. Kansas City Chiefs 6. Philadelphia Eagles 7. Atlanta Falcons Arizona Cardinals 9. Denver Broncos 10. Carolina Panthers 11. Seattle Seahawks 12. Cincinnati Bengals Jacksonville Jaguars 14. Chicago Bears 15. Cleveland Browns 16. San Diego Chargers 17. Houston Texans 18. Pittsburgh Steelers 19. New York Giants 20. Tennessee Titans 21. Baltimore Ravens 22. Tampa Bay Bucs 23. San Francisco 49ers 24. New York Jets 25. New England Patriots Washington Redskins 27. New Orleans Saints 28. Oakland Raiders Dallas Cowboys 30. Detroit Lions 31. Buffalo Bills Green Bay Packers
It's all in a spreadsheet so I'll be happy to keep this updated every week.
Edit to say: of course the final 8 spots will be dependent on who makes the playoffs but for now it's just ranked by the normal criteria.
Why wouldn't you rather have 7 and 32 as long as we are still the 32?
heck we could have 1 and 32 and be the only team in NFL history to win a super bowl with a 24 year old QB and then use the #1 pick to take his replacement.
Well, I was just playing.....1 and 32 would be best, of course. And I wouldn't dare replace Colt if he just won us a Super Bowl. I'd sell the pick ala Ricky Williams (give me your entire draft and most of next years too).
Up-to-date "Luck" of the draft standings after Week 4:
1. St Louis Rams 2. Indianapolis Colts 3t. Minnesota Vikings 3t. Miami Dolphins 5. Carolina Panthers 6t. Philadelphia Eagles 6t. Arizona Cardinals 8. Seattle Seahawks 9. Jacksonville Jaguars 10. Kansas City Chiefs 11. Denver Broncos 12. Cleveland Browns 13. Pittsburgh Steelers 14. Atlanta Falcons 15. New York Jets 16. Oakland Raiders 17. Cincinnati Bengals 18. Chicago Bears 19. Dallas Cowboys 20. San Diego Chargers 21. New York Giants 22. Houston Texans 23. Washington Redskins 24. Tampa Bay Bucs 25. San Francisco 49ers 26. Tennessee Titans 27. Baltimore Ravens 28. New England Patriots 29. Buffalo Bills 30. New Orleans Saints 31. Detroit Lions 32. Green Bay Packers
I'll be interested to see what teams like the Rams, Vikings, Panthers, Cardinals, Colts, or Jaguars would do with the number one overall pick. They either have QB's or invested heavily in QB's.
Quote: #12 and #14, plus a 2nd could get us #1, if we decided to go that route, I bet
Somehow I don't think that would be enough. It would probably require dipping into the 2013 draft as well, but I guess that depends on who is holding the cards at #1.
Quote: #12 and #14, plus a 2nd could get us #1, if we decided to go that route, I bet
Somehow I don't think that would be enough. It would probably require dipping into the 2013 draft as well, but I guess that depends on who is holding the cards at #1.
We can just hope Mangini gets the Miami job and they end up with the worst record and trade us the #1 overall for a 3rd rounder and the box of doughnuts he left in the fridge...
Up-to-date "Luck" of the draft standings after Week 5:
On a side note, it'd be super duper fantastic if we could actually insert tables into posts and not have to resort to uploading pictures. If I'm completely missing something with the message board code that DOES allow it please let me know.
Yeah I just asked in the Ref Corner. We'll see what he says but I sure couldn't find a way to do it.
Back to the thread - I don't think we'll be hanging onto that #15 spot for long. The second half of our schedule is SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult than the beginning...shown by the fact that our Strength of Schedule is currently the 2nd easiest in the whole NFL to the Giants.
Quote: Yeah I just asked in the Ref Corner. We'll see what he says but I sure couldn't find a way to do it.
Back to the thread - I don't think we'll be hanging onto that #15 spot for long. The second half of our schedule is SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult than the beginning...shown by the fact that our Strength of Schedule is currently the 2nd easiest in the whole NFL to the Giants.
The NFC West is cupcake though. The Rams and Cards are really bad. We should beat Seattle.
Let's say Atlanta picks it up, and SNEAKS into the playoffs...
They hit a good stretch and make it to the NFC Title game and lose...
Who's at all interested (depending on whats where of course) of say, finding someone thats looking to trade back into the 1st round, and we pick up say a 3rd this year and their 1st next year?
Quote: We should get a couple of good players or have the ammo to move in any direction we choose.
Given that we are going to have 2 first rounders and given that it looks like at least 1 of them (if not both) are going to be pretty high, maybe even top 10... unless we package to move UP, I really hope we don't use everything to trade back for more picks and more "good" players... not that we don't need good players but I am of the opinion that we have quite a few "good" players, what we lack is difference makers and you have much better odds of finding those in the top 10.
For example, we need a "good" RT but we need a difference maker at WR.... and maybe one at QB...
Quote: If the Browns can't get Luck, I want Matt Barkley.
That's one of the things that scares me about this draft and I will confess that I haven't really gotten into it too deep yet but I'm concerned that with all of the hoopla surrounding Luck, that somebody (hopefully not us) is going to reach for the second best or even third best QB of the draft whether he is worth it or not. Drafting the wrong QB with a high first round pick would set this franchise back a lot further than even giving Colt another year....
Quote: If the Browns can't get Luck, I want Matt Barkley.
That's one of the things that scares me about this draft and I will confess that I haven't really gotten into it too deep yet but I'm concerned that with all of the hoopla surrounding Luck, that somebody (hopefully not us) is going to reach for the second best or even third best QB of the draft whether he is worth it or not. Drafting the wrong QB with a high first round pick would set this franchise back a lot further than even giving Colt another year....
Quote: But passing on the right QB could be fatal.
Not really. There are usually a couple good QBs in every draft, some drafts deeper than others.. .if you pass on one then you may have to work harder to get one next year... but drafting the wrong one that high costs you 3 or 4 years usually...
Quote: But passing on the right QB could be fatal.
Not really. There are usually a couple good QBs in every draft, some drafts deeper than others.. .if you pass on one then you may have to work harder to get one next year... but drafting the wrong one that high costs you 3 or 4 years usually...
Good QBs yes ..... but if you pass on the right QB, you're cooked.
A "good enough" QB isn't in this league. It used to be ..... but you need a great QB these days if you want to win a championship. (or multiple championships)
Quote: But passing on the right QB could be fatal.
Not really. There are usually a couple good QBs in every draft, some drafts deeper than others.. .if you pass on one then you may have to work harder to get one next year... but drafting the wrong one that high costs you 3 or 4 years usually...
Good QBs yes ..... but if you pass on the right QB, you're cooked.
A "good enough" QB isn't in this league. It used to be ..... but you need a great QB these days if you want to win a championship. (or multiple championships)
VERY TRUE...most accurate statement on this site. An occasional team with an average QB will make the playoffs, but they almost always exit early and they usually don't have continous success like the teams with real killer QBs (Brady/Pats, Manning/Colts, Favre-Rodgers/Packers, Rivers/Chargers, Big Ben/Steelers, Brees/Saints)
EXACTLY. Just having a 1st Rd QB or a "good" QB isn't the answer. Having the RIGHT 1st Rd QB, or an elite QB is the answer.
The exceptions to the rule are the young Roethlisberger-led Steelers and the Jets with Sanchez...only because the rest of their teams are SO good.
Like I said, teams have 2 options to be annual Super Bowl contenders:
1) Have a truly "elite" NFL QB. Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, Roethlisberger. That's it. Stafford and Ryan could end up in this group.
2) Have an elite OLine AND Defense AND Running game AND play making receivers AND a great HC and then a game manager at QB.
The problem is, there's exactly 1 QB in the 2012 draft who is good enough to be considered a possible elite QB. Those guys don't grow on trees. It's why I'd be so willing to get him at ALL COSTS. He's the "right guy" who you just can not pass on.
It's also why I think if we CAN'T get him, we might as well just roll with Colt for another year and continue building around him in the mold of option #2.
I suppose my only question is how long do we go with Colt.
What I mean is that I am a supporter of giving him time in CASE he progresses even over the next few seasons and maybe in 4 or 5 years could be a drew brees or even a Matt Hasselbeck and lead us to a superbowl.
I also am aware of the Frye situation and sticking with a guy for TOO long... but if we actually have a solid front office who knows how to draft ... I almost think not having the elite QB while adding talent could absolutely get us in a great position.
Even if Colt only wins us 8 games a season next year ... but we add our picks and talent in 2012 PLUS have the option of either giving him more weapons OR going after a QB in 2013 ... then any QB we add (hopefully the franchise guy) could come into our team with a completed yet still young line - a few weapons at the receiving core and also some weapons in the backfield. PLUS that guy (or Colt) would have a legit defense that can hold teams to 2 or 3 scores per game.
Getting a QB now might be great in the long term but it also means that QB comes in without as much talent around him. Whether we get talent THEN the QB ... or the other way around ... it's still going to take time. The only thing I am worried about is how much we give up for a guy who only PROJECTS as a great player.
You can bet that if the Colts believe in Luck they won't trade him away ... especially after seeing the night/day with and without manning.
Miami went 1-15 a few years back ... and after Parcells rebuilt them they are right back into an 0-5 season so far. They might be FINE with trading with Cleveland (or whoever) and taking a Barkely or a Jones if it means they get 3 #1's and a #2 and a #3 as well .... or maybe they won't even think about trading him away if they believe they have some pieces but need the franchise guy ... plus you still have Seattle, Denver, Washington, Minnesota?, who could all be in the sweepstakes or at least trying to outbid each other for the guy.
Still a long way out and I'd rather just grab a few gamechangers and give Colt a real offseason as the starter plus have a few real weapons.
I am going to say something that will send peoples' heads spinning ...... but we need to keep grabbing QBs when we have the chance until we find that right guy.
Having a 1st round pick in Claussen ..... a guy who "might develop", didn't stop the Panthers from Taking Newton. It was a risky pick, but he looks like a game changer at QB.
The Chargers had a guy in Brees who, at that point, "might develop". They had a choice between re-signing him, or turning the reins over to the next guy they drafted high in Rivers. They gave Rivers the team, and never looked back. Brees is a great QB, but the Chargers haven't suffered at the position.
The 49'ers, many years ago, has Joe Montana. They were able to acquire a guy they thought could be great in Steve Young. They did so, and when Montana started getting old, they turned the team over to Young and he took them to more Super Bowls.
This year the draft gave teams 4 1st round QBs, Newton, Locker, Gabbart, and Ponder.
2010 gave us 2 1st rounders, Bradford and Tebow.
2009 gave us Stafford, Sanchez, and Freeman.
2008 gave us Ryan and Flacco.
2007 gave us Russell.
There aren't a ton of high caliber guys available, so if you can get one you think is special, you better jump when you have the chance. Russell was a flat out bust on this list ..... but the rest are either rookies, starters, or both.
Besides, QBs with potential always have upside. The Eagles were able to trade Kolb, who was underwhelming in his Eagles' appearances. The Bengals robbed the Raiders for Palmer. Teams with an abundance of quality QBs can always fleece teams desperate for a QB.
There will be 4 maybe 5 QBs gone in the first. To say 1 is gonna win a SB and the others will not is just foolish. The right guy in the right system with the right compliment will give you a chance for a superbowl. Nothing more than a chance.
Quote: There will be 4 maybe 5 QBs gone in the first. To say 1 is gonna win a SB and the others will not is just foolish. The right guy in the right system with the right compliment will give you a chance for a superbowl. Nothing more than a chance.
Your wrong...According to all the pros, Andrew Luck will win the Superbowl every year he is in the NFL no matter what team he goes to.
Nation's top prospects beginning to separate from rest of pack
By Rob Rang NFLDraftScout.com Senior Analyst Oct. 18, 2011Tell Rob your opinion!
Halfway through the college football regular season, the elite prospects in country are beginning to separate from the rest of the pack.
There are some -- Mississippi State running back Vick Ballard, for example -- who started the season hot, but have since cooled off. More on NFL Draft
Others, such as Texas A&M wide receiver Jeff Fuller, haven't been the consistent force they had been in previous seasons.
The news is all disappointing.
For every player who has surprisingly struggled or succumbed to injury -- such as Florida State offensive tackle Andrew Datko -- others have stepped up their level of play. South Carolina cornerback Stephon Gilmore, Georgia tight end Orson Charles and North Carolina linebacker Zach Brown are examples.
Creating a "Big Board" at this point in the year isn't necessarily designed to predict the first 32 picks of the 2012 NFL Draft. With a full season, all-star games, individual workouts and interviews each playing critical roles in determining a player's final grade, much will change between now and April.
1. Andrew Luck, QB, Stanford*: In 12 years of scouting professionally, Luck is my highest graded player. Second on the list? Ndamukong Suh. Third? Calvin Johnson. Get the idea how good I think this guy will be?
2. Matt Barkley, QB, Southern Cal*: Barkley doesn't have Luck's size, athleticism or arm strength. No one does. Barkley is still a top-notch prospect in his own right. In a typical draft he would be generating No. 1 overall buzz.
3. Matt Kalil, OT, Southern Cal*: The 6-7, 295-pound Kalil was never beaten by speed and dominant, at times, as a drive blocker against Cal. He did get beat inside occasionally.
4. Justin Blackmon, WR, Oklahoma State*: Blackmon ultimately won't get drafted this high -- there are too many questions about his straight-line speed -- but he's virtually unstoppable at this level and will prove to be a legit No. 1 option in the NFL.
5. Trent Richardson, RB, Alabama*: Bigger, stronger and faster than his former teammate and 2009 Heisman Trophy winner Mark Ingram, Richardson won't have to wait until the end of the first round to hear his name called.
6. Quinton Coples, DE, North Carolina: As physically imposing as they came, Coples' lack of burst off the edge might mean he'll never be a star pass rusher in the NFL, but his strength and size (6-6, 285) could make him a matchup nightmare.
7. Brandon Thompson, DT, Clemson: At 6-2, 300 pounds, Thompson lacks the size most scouts prefer from a top-10 defensive tackle. His combination of power and quickness, however, has made him virtually unblockable this season.
8. Riley Reiff, OT, Iowa*: He has NFL size (6-6, 300 pounds) and impressive athleticism, giving him the look of a top-10 pick.
9. 'Dre Kirkpatrick, CB, Alabama*: Physical, fast and athletic, Kirkpatrick has the athletic traits scouts look for in a top-10 prospect. To ultimately be selected this high, however, he'll need to play with more consistency.
10. Janoris Jenkins, CB, North Alabama: As anyone who watched Jenkins play for Florida might have expected, Jenkins has been a star at the D-II level for North Alabama. Scouts have plenty of concerns about his maturity, but few about his ability.
11. Jonathan Martin, OT, Stanford*: An athletic left tackle who has capably protected Andrew Luck's blindside. Looks smaller than his listed 6-6, 304 pounds and may lack the physicality for some schemes.
12. Michael Floyd, WR, Notre Dame: Floyd's talent has never been the question. At times, he's been unstoppable. To earn a first-round selection, he must prove to scouts he has matured, especially off the field.
13. Landry Jones, QB, Oklahoma*: Demonstrating greater poise and accuracy against Texas than he had in previous big games, Jones may be on the verge of legitimizing his hype as a top-10 prospect.
14. Alshon Jeffery, WR, South Carolina*: Scouts have reservations about Jeffery's straight-line speed, but his size, physicality and body control have dominated SEC competition -- and that speaks volumes.
15. Alfonzo Dennard, CB, Nebraska: Finally back to health, Dennard is showing signs of being the physical shutdown press corner that led some scouts to grade him this season as the country's elite senior prospect at any position.
16. Morris Claiborne, CB, LSU*: I'll be the first to admit that I chalked up some of Claiborne's big plays last season to playing opposite Patrick Peterson. He's been even better this season, however, and possesses the quick feet and sticky hands usually reserved for wideouts.
17. Billy Winn, DT, Boise State: Kellen Moore gets all of the hype, but Winn is clearly Boise State's best pro prospect. Winn has been impressive against top competition and only needs to play with more consistency to warrant a first-round selection.
18. Cordy Glenn, OG, Georgia: Glenn struggled in the opener against Boise State, but has rewarded faith in him since with much improved play at left tackle. He may not be able to remain outside in the NFL, but looks like a possible future Pro Bowl candidate on the inside.
19. Manti Te'o, ILB, Notre Dame*: Instinctive, physical and athletic enough to beat backs to the edge, as well as remain on the field on third down, Te'o has emerged as the country's best all-around middle linebacker.
20. Peter Konz, C, Wisconsin*: Rarely does an underclassman center deserve mention in the top 20 of a Big Board, but Konz is special. His size and strength inside and fluidity blocking at the second level could allow him to join the Pouncey twins, Alex Mack (Cleveland Browns) and Eric Wood (Buffalo Bills) as the fifth center drafted in the first round over the past four drafts.
21. David DeCastro, OG, Stanford*: One veteran scout traveling from Stanford characterized DeCastro as "the best guard I've seen in a long time." Like everyone else on that offense, he's aided by Andrew Luck, but there is no doubt DeCastro has top NFL talent.
22. Jayron Hosley, CB, Virginia Tech*: At 5-10, 170 pounds, Hosley certainly lacks the frame scouts prefer, but his instincts, quick feet and ball skills make him arguably the top cover corner in the country.
23. Stephon Gilmore, CB, South Carolina*: Not the caliber of ball-hawk some on the list are, Gilmore is one of the sound tacklers and aggressive run defenders of the group. Some view him as a potential candidate to move to safety.
24. Luke Kuechly, ILB, Boston College*: Kuechly's instincts and open-field tackling skills are impressive, but he's not as stout as scouts would prefer for playing inside in the NFL and may lack the athleticism to make the switch to outside. Some scouts believe Kuechly is one of the country's most overrated pro prospects.
25. Orson Charles, TE, Georgia*: Charles lacks the size at 6-3, 242 pounds of the traditional tight end, but his athleticism, reliable hands and surprising physicality as a blocker makes him my top-rated prospect at the position.
26. Courtney Upshaw, ILB, Alabama: Upshaw only recorded two tackles against Ole Miss -- but those two were sacks. Instinctive and physical, he's a top-notch ILB for the 3-4 scheme and some 4-3 clubs like his potential as a defensive end.
27. Alameda Ta'Amu, DT/NG, Washington: Despite limited skills as a pass rusher, this 6-3, 330-pounder's ability to disrupt interior rushing lanes could make him a first-round pick.
28. Zach Brown, OLB, North Carolina: An extraordinary athlete still learning the nuances of the position, Brown has demonstrated improved instincts and physicality this season, emerging as North Carolina's most consistent defender.
29. Jerel Worthy, DT, Michigan State: After struggling with consistency the first quarter of the season, Worthy has played considerably better, including disrupting Michigan quarterback Denard Robinson on multiple occasions last Saturday. Welcome back to the Big Board, Mr. Worthy.
30. Cliff Harris, CB, Oregon: Finally earning his way back onto the field and grabbing consistent playing time, Harris recorded his first interception of 2011 against Arizona State Saturday. Last season, he led the Pac-10 in this category. Harris is slight, but his coverage and ball skills are top notch.
31. Ryan Tannehill, QB, Texas A&M: Scouts can't help but be disappointed in the lack of big plays turned in by Tannehill and the entire Aggie offense in two colossal second-half letdowns against Oklahoma State and Arkansas, but he turned that around against Baylor with a career high six touchdown passes. With only 11 career starts to date, it is easy to look past his inconsistencies and instead imagine his bright future.
32. Vontaze Burfict, ILB, Arizona State*: Burfict is an enigma. His intensity, penchant for the big play and timing as a pass rusher make him a legitimate first-round prospect, but he's not the stats-monster his hype would lead you to believe. The junior could leave early, but scouts warn he's a classic boom-or-bust prospect. web page
I enjoy DraftTek immensely. Their draft simulator is awesome fun and after the first of the year they update their positional rankings, Big Board and Mock Drafts more often than a lot of places. I also like that their Mock Draft isn't based on the opinions of one guy but rather a consensus of individuals. I actually help them out every now and then.
You just have to be careful though and not take everything they say as gold, because while I like that their rankings and mocks are based on multiple people's opinions...they aren't all "experts" by a far stretch. Each team has a few contributors for that matter. It's not unusual for them to have a couple guys ranked COMPLETELY out in left field. Also...their big boards tend to take some time to get sorted out with all the different opinions and inputs. By draft time they're pretty spot on but their early rankings can have some doozies. They'll completely miss guys here and there and completely whiff on others.
They also use their online simulator to do a live re-sim DURING the draft. After each pick they re-sim and give the expected upcoming draft results. Tons of fun.
So like I said, all in all, I enjoy the site and visit it often.
I also really like Scott Wright at nfldraftcountdown.
There are some rankings there that I like and some that I don't. At this point there is still a wide range of opinions and guys are rising and falling faster than it's possible to keep track of. It's hard to watch every guy every week and know how well he's playing.
no logo: I don't write there anymore. I've moved on to Bleacher Report as a featured columnist. It doesn't sound impressive due to Bleacher Report's history, but BR is now hiring people on full time and the majority of the featured articles are done by paid writers.
Brownoholic, I like Scott but I know him pretty well and don't hold him in as high of esteem as some others. For one, he doesn't even post his real rankings. He uses a combination of his rankings and the consensus rankings, and posts that. That seems ridiculous to me. This is also a guy who works on the draft full time, yet he doesn't post scouting reports.
Add in the fact that Scott loved Brady Quinn and Jimmy Clausen (had Clausen ahead of Bradford) and it's kind of meh. The forums there are great though, and I occasionally post there. Some posters are morons, but those guys usually get ripped on pretty hard.
I know Shane P. Hallam really well, and he's a great guy. He writes occasional articles and features there.
Basic summary: If you want draft info, ask me. If you don't like me or think I'm stupid (understandable), go to draftcountdown.
Manning was a prodigy the moment he stepped foot in Knoxville. Ryan Leaf gained popularity later in his career at WSU.
i agree. it was Peyton who people thought got jobbed out of the Heisman. he was the golden boy with the golden arm. Leaf rocketed up the draft senses his last year and then after the season (alot due to Peyton fatigue). but, common sense that Peyton was the best and safest won out in that draft pretty easily.
Manning was a prodigy the moment he stepped foot in Knoxville. Ryan Leaf gained popularity later in his career at WSU.
i agree. it was Peyton who people thought got jobbed out of the Heisman. he was the golden boy with the golden arm. Leaf rocketed up the draft senses his last year and then after the season (alot due to Peyton fatigue). but, common sense that Peyton was the best and safest won out in that draft pretty easily.
There's a common misconception that the two were neck and neck so to speak. Manning was always the more coveted prospect, the next Elway. Occasionally you'd get folks who would tout Leaf as the better prospect, but it was a minority and in many cases done to simply grab attention as a devil's advocate.
After what the Bengals got for Carson Palmer what do you think Luck's Price is now assuming a team gets the pick who wants to trade it?
My best scenario is the Broncos to get the pick leaving Elway in a terrible bind. Cut Tebow and Draft Luck which fans would go nuts, maybe revolt, or Luck would hopefully throw a tantrum and say he wouldnt play for the Broncos which forces Elway to trade him. Even if the Browns didnt get him I would be pretty happen with those scenarios.
Quote: Cut Tebow and Draft Luck which fans would go nuts, maybe revolt, or Luck would hopefully throw a tantrum and say he wouldnt play for the Broncos which forces Elway to trade him. Even if the Browns didnt get him I would be pretty happen with those scenarios.
Deep - when you get a chance will you give a comparison of the top Qb's coming out next year? Luck, Jones, Barkley are the given. It would be nice to include Gibson, Foles, and Cousins. I would personally be interested in hearing about Lindley and it sounds like people on this board would like info on Tannehill.
Any of those silly to include? Did I miss anyone?
Obviously no rush seeing as we are just into week 7 of the season. It might be worth starting yet another Qb thread rather than trying to fit it into an existing thread.
I know almost nothing about Osweiler except that he is at Arizona State (and I had to look that up) but if it is felt that he belongs in the discussion so be it. As for Weeden, I like him but think his age will be an issue that knocks him out of 1st round consideration. And to keep the list manageable I would like to try to keep it to Qb's with the potential to be picked in the 1st round.
I too would love to have a draft forum year round. This is the time of year that we can talk about prospects and then watch them on Saturdays. Example - Osweiler. I know nothing about him but if I get the chance to watch an ASU game I will, and I will pay extra attention to him. Not something I would have done without No Logo's suggestion.
Let me preface by saying that I don't really like doing comps and I'm not really good at them either. Also let me add that these comps aren't me saying that the player will be as good as whom they are compared to, but that they have similar styles of play. With that said...
Luck - This is virtually impossible. I'm going to go retro and say Steve Young. Luck is a good athlete with great accuracy and intelligence. He does not, however, have an overly strong arm.
Jones - Tom Brady. Similar size, throws a great deep ball and has a strong arm. Plays in a spread but isn't nearly as intelligent or accurate.
Barkley - I really don't like this one, but I'll go with a slightly less accurate Drew Brees. Barkley is really accurate, really smart and not very tall. Good but not a rocket arm.
Osweiler - Flacco. Big with a rocket arm and huge upside.
Griffin - This is tough. Griffin is small, fast, a great runner and accurate. He doesn't have a great arm though. The closest comparison I have is Randall Cunningham. Meh.
Tannehill - I have nothing here. I'll just say that he is big, fast and accurate. I'm worried about the mental part. He needs to do everything a bit more quickly. I will apologize to Mourg here and admit I'm seeing what he was earlier. He's good.
I think Griffin doesn't have a rocket, but it is definitely good enough. He is really tough to evaluate. People compare him to Vick but they really aren't the same.
Its cool bro we each watch different teams more often than others. I like Mike Sherman's A&M team, they are just fun to watch. Tannehill just keeps growing by leaps and bounds as a quarterback thanks to Mike Sherman. Honestly, I am starting to wonder if he isn't the #2 QB in this class by season's end.
I gotta think with A&M running this same Mike Holmgren offense, Tannehill will be really high on our boards. I got a very strong feeling on this one.
Quote: Osweiler - Flacco. Big with a rocket arm and huge upside.
that sounds about right. what's strange with Brock when watching him is that I first saw this gangly 6'8" guy at QB but by the end of watching him move I am just amazed at how fluid he is as an athlete.
Lets not forget that Scott Wright also said it was only a matter of time before TJ Ward blew out his knees and would be out of the NFL. Hardly very professional. I've called into his show/asked him on the foums/twitter and have yet to get a response. Pretty wimpy if you ask me. I used to really enjoy Scott's podcast but this year about half the show dedicated to Andrew Luck and which team he'll get drafted by or wheter he'll randsom himself the way that Eli Manning did. Not interested in trying to predict Luck's intentions. I want draft analysis/ Pretty much unlistenable anymore. I went from liking/respecting him to thinking he's a pompous idiot.
Shane on the other hand seems solid. Wish he'd break off from Scott and start his own thing.
Quote: I suppose my only question is how long do we go with Colt.
The answer it pretty simple. You go with him until you get a better replacement.
I mean that no matter what happens.. If Colt takes us to the Superbowl and wins it 3 times in the next ten years, you still go to the next guy if he's better than Colt. (better as defined by the FO not those on this board, me included)
Same is true if Colt doesn't get it ever.. you move on when you have another guy you think is better.
We don't have that guy on this team right now or I'd suspect he'd be starting over Colt this sunday if the FO felt as many on here do that Colt will never get it.
Daman, I agree with your premise but it's not quite that simple. The guy that's potentially better than Colt isn't just going to appear out of the clouds above Berea so the staff gets to decide who to start, he's going to have to be drafted or traded for. And with that, you are giving up something else and if he's drafted high enough or if we give up enough in trade, then you are, by default, committing to this other guy to take over.
Assuming we would draft one, the question is going to become, we can use our high pick to draft an impact corner or a stud LB or a game changing WR or we can draft a new QB to compete with Colt... which one is more valuable. And to make that decision, we will have to ask a lot more questions..... Which one has the chance to make this team better and by how much and how quickly. What is Colt's ceiling? What is this new hypothetical QBs ceiling? How much better is Colt with a game changing WR?
Everybody agrees that it is extremely unusual for teams to win consistently in this league without quality QB play so of course having that is important but a lot of factors go into it..
Quote: Let me preface by saying that I don't really like doing comps and I'm not really good at them either.
You're smarter than your sig may indicate though!
Baby steps...you're right...you're not good at them.
As one who is all knowing and all powerful may you stand, agape, as you read the brilliance below about to be bestowed upon you. _______________
Luck - Troy Aikman Jones - haven't seen enough of him quite frankly - awesome and humble Barkley - Len Dawson, maybe at the pinnacle of his talent if he pans out Osweiler - Dan McGuire ("now with shimmie!"), maybe that's doing the kid a disservice. I have to see more of his games. Griffin - No comparable former NFL QB, does not have an NFL quality throwing motion or mechanics. I guess you could say Vick without the arm strength, velocity or spin rate. Tannehill - see Jones...
I guess I don't watch too many Big 12 games. I saw a Baylor game because he was getting some love from Michael Vick. Not as impressed as I thought I'd be.
Yes. One of the things that bothers me about Luck is how wide open his receivers always are. It's tough to accurate evaluate his accuracy when he's throwing through such huge windows.
It's one of the benefits of running a WCO against college defenses. They have no freaking clue how to cover guys running long complex routes. The whole point of a WCO is to confuse a secondary and keep them on their toes. Most teams are used to running against WRs that play in a spread.
Quote: Yes. One of the things that bothers me about Luck is how wide open his receivers always are. It's tough to accurate evaluate his accuracy when he's throwing through such huge windows.
Really?
I am watching this game and his receivers, even with a huge lead, don't seem that wide open.
In fact, the announcers just said that one thing that really sticks out about Luck is the fact that his receivers never seem to get great separation, and he still makes the throws in small windows.
I haven't seen a ton of Stanford's games, so I can't say if what I have seen in the few I have seen is the norm, or an exception. I am curious as to how many times you have seen Luck play?
A little miscommunication. I don't put much stock into comparing college players to pro players. What I was asking for was to compare these guys to each other. Rate them on arm strength, accuracy, smarts, athleticism, work ethic if you know about it etc.
Deep is right, everytime I have watched Luck, those receivers usually don't have anyone within 5 yards of them. This was the best D they have faced and it wasn't much.
I was just curious because the announcers said that the Stanford receivers rarely get much separation. They used that as a reason for raving about Luck so much.
It figures that I get to see a Stanford game for a change, and it's a blow out where they run for almost 700 yards. lol I have seen a few, but not as many as I would like to see. (on TV and on ESPN3 and such)
Quote: Yes. One of the things that bothers me about Luck is how wide open his receivers always are. It's tough to accurate evaluate his accuracy when he's throwing through such huge windows.
That's how so many people were fooled by Brady Quinn.
The windows Quinn had in college were wide enough to cover up for his inaccurate throws. Those windows don't exist in the NFL, exposing the accuracy of guys who didn't really have it.
Quote: He didn't have to do much because of his running game
this. do not evaluate Luck on a game where the defense said "we dare you to beat us with your running game." and then Stanford accepts and delivers on that challenge.
Yeah something is very wrong with their SoS and rankings.
For example New England has played : Jets (4-3), Dolphins (0-6), Bills (4-2), Raiders (4-3), Chargers (4-2) and Cowboys (3-3). Their opponents total is 19-19 so their SoS should be .500 as I stated in my spreadsheet, but they have their SoS at .455??
Similarly we have played Cincy (4-2), Indy (0-7), Miami (0-6), Tenn (3-3), Oak (4-3) and Seattle (2-4). Our opponent totals are 13-25 for a SoS of .342 yet they have it as .461??
They also put their projected playoff teams in the final 12 slots (which is how it does work) but being so far from the playoffs mine are just ranked normally with disregard to playoffs. I'll probably switch to putting the playoff "final 12" the last month or so when it becomes more realistic to project playoff teams.
Either way, #12 and #19 for us currently is correct and not theirs.
Edit to add : The only thing I can think is that maybe they are using the teams entire 16 game schedules when calculating their SoS instead of just the teams they have actually already played?? I guess it's possible. Doesn't make much sense to me though since it's not a real "up to date" ranking. I just update mine every week. It's not that hard.
What....we have the same record as Philly & Dallas.....a better record than 10 other teams...
In my eyes, yes things havent gone as we wanted or planned, but folks Shurmur hasnt done a bad job with what he's worked with, rookie coach, new systems, lock out effected learning, and were 3-4 heck if we had kept Mangini we'd be elated to be 3-4, yes it's a close 3-4 but weve won a few we should have lost and lost a couple we should have won, so it's all balanced out.
Colt, how many other NFL teams have QB problems..Denver, Washington, Miami, Seattle, Should I keep going, Colt is not doing a bad job for really his fist year, add a WR and get him a running game colt will do fine,
Look 3-4 not great but better than some years, this coming year in the draft we add a few more pieces sign a couple FA pieces and in holgrams 3rd years we should be playoff hunting next year this time, I expect to be...
Quote: Arizona, St. Louis, Carolina, Minnesota, Jacksonville, Seattle and Washington will all finish with better records than us.
Arizona is awful. Really awful. They may not win the rest of year, even against Seattle and St. Louis. I think we beat St. Louis and Jacksonville. That puts in the 5-9 range.
Quote: Who was the ball buster that tried to convice me that Mike Martin would be a 1st or 2nd round pick?
I made that statement a while ago, and I'd stand by it now. He has been a very good player in terrible Michigan defenses, and he is playing very well now in Mattison's defense.
That added to the fact that he will have a huge combine make him at least a 2nd rounder.
Quote: I'm not definitively saying it won't happen, but I would be shocked if Martin is a second-round pick.
And I would be shocked if he wasn't. His production is picking up and he has always been a very solid player. He is also one of the strongest players in the country and is extremely athletic. He will have a huge combine.
I could be wrong, but I see no reason he won't be.
Posted on: November 2, 2011 5:44 pm Posted by Josh Katzowitz
People just can’t stop praising Andrew Luck.
Even if he throws a pick-6, people come back and say, “Just look at the way he responded after that interception. What a champion.” Hell, we talked plenty about Luck -- and if we’d rather have him or Cam Newton if we were starting a new franchise -- on today's CBSSports.com experts chat.
You have to look high and low to find anybody that has anything negative to say about Luck and his NFL prospects.
Luckily, former Giants star quarterback and current CBS/Showtime analyst Phil Simms has come to our rescue. He told SiriusXM radio that he has detected a flaw in Luck’s body of work.
“I,” he said, “just don’t see big time NFL throws.”
More transcription from PFT: “I’ve watched a lot of him. He never takes it and rips it in there. And you can say what you want but, man, you’ve got to be able to crease that ball every once in a while. … There’s not a lot of rotation on the ball and there’s not a tremendous amount of power. Not that you need to have that power arm. I’m not saying you’ve got to have that exclusively but, man, it sure helps when you can do that because there’s four or five plays a game it is about arm strength. And sometimes quarterbacks who don’t have it, they pass those plays up. Why? Well, they go, ‘I don’t know if I can make that throw,’ so they throw it short.”
One NFL scout, talking to CBSSports.com's Rob Rang agrees. Said that scout: "The reality is, Luck is a pretty special talent, but he's not Superman. I don't know that anyone could be as good as the hype he's getting right now."
You have to wonder how long the light emanating off Luck’s crown will continue to shine. Hardly anybody has a bad thing to say about him, and people are wondering how many draft picks he could command if the team that’s selecting with the No. 1 pick in 2012 decides to trade his rights – four first-rounders was the craziest hypothesis I saw.
But positive or negative, the Luck storyline will last for a very long time, through the Heisman presentation to the draft and all the way through training camp and into the 2012 season. That’s a long time for speculation about whether a quarterback can be a franchise savior. That’s also a long time for other people to pick at Luck and find his flaws. Whether they’re imagined or not.
If Skip Bayless were saying this, I wouldn't even read past the first sentence. However, Simms was a legit QB in the NFL....has 1-2 rings (not really sure if he considers the year he was injured as "his" even though he played a bit). Anyway, this is really the first comment I've read that doesn't paint him as a lock HOFer as of this moment.
Ya, I don't think Simms is saying the opposite just to be "that guy". He doesn't come off like that.
And there's no way I'd listen to anything John Gruden says. He thinks ALL QBs are perfect, brilliant, special, amazing and great guys with perfect, brilliant, special and amazing talents. Ugh.
Yeah, Gruden loves anyone who plays the position if they come in and work with him.
I respect Simms' opinion, but I think that he's wrong. I'll trust the judgement of my own eyes from what I have seen as opposed to taking his word for it.
I do think that any QB would have trouble living up to his hype right now. He probably would have been better off coming into the league this year, with the strike looming ...... than waiting till next year when all eyes will be on him.
Of course he could completely flip the NFL on its head and return to Stanford for his senior season .........
Wouldn't that screw up every draft scenario imaginable?
This is the time of year that people will start taking apart the hype of the top prospects.... it is what stirs the NFL Draft engine.
Hell, if you think back to it, this time of year prior to Quinn being drafted he was receiving almost as much ridiculous hype... and so have a half dozen other QB's over the past several years. It's just that time of year.... half of the fans in the league are already turning their minds and eyes to "next year".
They were just copying my comments lol. I really like Rob Rang but it wasn't long ago he was stating that Luck received the highest grade that he had ever given out.
As I have been saying, Luck is my top rated guy as well but I don't see much separation at all between the top 4 qbs. Each has their strengths and weaknesses. This is a fantastic QB class, we get any of these 4 and we are very lucky, although I think Luck and Jones are gone 1 dn 2 off the board, which will leave us the choice of Tannehill and Barkley.
Quote: Heck of a back and wouldnt mind having him on the Browns but I don't see us making another big draft investment in RB this soon.
WalterFootball.com currently has us taking Quinten Coples(DE, UNC) and Riley Reiff (OT, Iowa) in the 1st Mohamed Sanu(WR, Rutgers) LaMichael James(RB, Oregon) in the 3rd
Eh. Better than the one site I saw had us taking Trent Richardson with our first pick...
Is "most NFL ready" Latin for sucky player about to be drafted by the Browns?
Simms says that he hasn't seen Luck make those throws. That doesn't mean that he can't. I say he hasn't seen those throws because Luck is a smart decision maker and throws to the wide open receiver rather than forcing the ball in when he doesn't have to.
I thought Barkley had the more lively arm of the two, but Luck had better poise in the pocket and he seemed to make better decisions overall, but Stanford's running game really helps take the pressure off of Luck by keeping him on schedule.
Hey what does anyone know about RGIII. I mean I am of the opinion we need a QB but it appears the Colts, Dolphins, and Seahawks will be picking ahead of us unless something unforeseen happens which means that a combination of Luck, Barkley, and Jones will be gone to those teams. In some current mock drafts I've seen RGIII in the top 10. Anyone watch Baylor play?
What I think I know about RGIII: 1. Fast: In track, he broke state records for the 110-meter and 300-meter hurdles. At one point he was also the top ranked 400 meter dasher in the US. So we are talking Vick like speed at QB.
2. Good arm: It appears he has an above average arm. When he throws slants and comebacks they are ropes usually. I also saw one throw that was probably 40-50 yards in the air. At 4:12 in the video attached he is standing on his 35 and throws it to the 20.
3, Plays with inferior talent and carries the team. He wrecked TCU which generally is known for having a good college defense.
4. At one point had more TDs than Incompletions which isn't totally relevant but still it was a cool stat.
5. Both of his parents are retired U.S. Army Sergeants, which means he probably grew up in a very disciplined family.
What I don't know: 1. Is He NFL Accurate: Currently he has a 74.5 completion %. On its face it looks impressive. If you watch some game of his you can see some NFL throws but a lot of times his WR is college open.
2. Spread QB: Toughest to evaluate. Is his stock being bumped up by the Cam Newton effect?
3. Not because is black but because of his skill set does he most favorably compare to Vick?
4. Is he a legit top 10 pick?
Any insight?
Link to that TCU game highligts turn off the volume tho cause it has some Russian dude scouting him for some odd reason
My question is "Can he read defenses?" it looked to me in that video that most all his throws were to his primary target or otherwise he took off running. I saw very few plays where he surveyed the field.
Quote: Fun quarterback to watch but he is small and plays in the spread. Seond rounder at the earliest.
He's listed at 6'2" which means he's probably close to 6'2 than 6'1. If he's a legit 6'2 or 6'1" and 11 inches then I don't think his size is the issue. If Tim Tebow was a 1st rounder and take into consideration that Ponder and Locker were taken in the first 15 picks I can see no scenario which he falls out of the 1st round. I mean Andy Dalton fell but Dalton doesn't have the measurables that RGIII does. I think some team will look at his gun and his speed and be willing to take a chance on him.
If the Rams pick before the Dolphins, Colts, or Seahawks I can see the Browns trading up with them to get a QB if they really like the QB. If you remember the Browns did try and trade up for Bradford.
For me: 1. Luck- Obviously 2. Jones: I prefer his quick release and arm 3. Barkley: I think he is a better version of Colt McCoy/Brady Quinn/Charlie Frye. Honestly I am sick of soft throwing QBs who can't stretch the field. I've watched a few USC games and he does seem more accurate than Jones but in the few games I watched he didn't seem like he was stretching the field. I'm not saying I want Jamarcus Russell, I just want a guy who can throw an out, slant pattern, and a 20 yard rope.
Undecided on: 1. RGIII: Spread QB but so was Cam Newton 2. Tannehill: Seems like a project...but so did Cam Newton
Quote: Barkley: I think he is a better version of Colt McCoy/Brady Quinn/Charlie Frye. Honestly I am sick of soft throwing QBs who can't stretch the field. I've watched a few USC games and he does seem more accurate than Jones but in the few games I watched he didn't seem like he was stretching the field. I'm not saying I want Jamarcus Russell, I just want a guy who can throw an out, slant pattern, and a 20 yard rope.
Why do people have such a tough time judging arm strength? I hear craziness all the time as it relates to QBs and how hard/fast they throw the football. Even with top guys I hear mixed opinions.
Quote: Last person with those kind of measurables was john holmes.
Now that's funny. Yeah I meant what ClevSteve said. As I told him I'm in the middle of my 1L year at law school and it can cause sane and logical people to have moments of insanity and unlogical behavior.
Assuming that Jones, Barkley, and Luck are gone before the Browns pick and it appears that the Browns are not going to resign Hillis would you take Trent Richardson over Blackmon or Jeffery? I would probably take Blackmon over Richardson but Jeffery and Richardson would be close. Or if the three QBs and Blackmon are gone would you take the Defensive BPA even if the clear need is on offense? I am strong proponent of BPA period whether offense or defense.
Basically I'm asking in what scenario would you take Richardson if one exists. Put simply if he's BPA you take him cause with the Hillis drama and the Hardesty injury problem it is clear the Browns need a RB. In that respect I am hoping that the Oregon RB L. James would fall to us in the 3rd of 4th but I think that's a pipedream.
I would take Richardson. I am usually vehemently opposed to taking running backs high, but Richardson is just that good. He's my No. 3 player in the draft and IMO the best running back prospect since AP. In a draft that has a ton of depth at WR, I take the better player in Richardson and look to address wideout later.
Richardson is the #2 player in this draft. He may not go top 10 but he is the best RB since AP. The value on RB just isn't there and the value on QB will never be higher. I would probably take Tannehill over Trent Richardson but man it is a tough call. Would love to find a way to get both. 2 firsts and a low 2nd should come in real handy. They are my two favorite players in this draft along with Morris Claiborne.
Tannehill looks absurdly underwhelming. In fact, he has looked bad. Poor footwork, non-existent pocket presence, bad accuracy, not efficient at going through progressions.
Don't get to see this one until espn replays it. I got the Wisconsin game boo. Anyway only one quarter of football has been played. Luck hasn't looked to hot in his game either.
Maybe he sucks whenever I aint watching. find the game, 2nd play I see is Tannehill flushed from the pocket and a 30 yard strike to swope that goes for 79 yards.
First pass was a horrible throw off his back foot.
•Barkley is hit-and-miss. He has his great moments when he gets the ball out on time but he's protected much like Luck is. Difference is that they're protected in different ways. Barkley is told to get the ball out early with quick drops and quick reads to his receivers. It's a lot of short routes whether they're slants, quick screens, or flare routes to the outside. He has to get the ball out fast. I don't know how much he actually goes through his progressions, to be honest.
•Andrew Luck looks good because of the size of his recievers, his monster o-line and running game.
•Landry Jones concerns me because of the offense he plays in.
•RG3 does not have a great arm and has horrible footwork
Don't forget QB needy teams like DEN, SEA and WAS all possibly picking ahead of us and I see no way how a guy like Weeden drops out of the 1st round....nobody is going to risk a top10 pick on a 29yo rookie but we might be the team for him with our ATL pick....I really don't even see us getting Tannehill without an uptrade....there could easily be 4 QBs in the top 10 this year, esp. with the new CBA in place teams will gamble more
Look at QB needy teams and their records and it is very clear that it's a QB driven league
I've got 8 teams possibly looking at QB. Mia, Indy, Sea, Cle, Ari, Wash, Dal, Den
Miami's owner said he wants a franchise QB. End of story. All of the other teams are waiting to see how their QB turns it on, or in Indy's case, gets healthy.
Arizona however has 60 million reasons to stick with Kolb.
Quote: I've got 8 teams possibly looking at QB. Mia, Indy, Sea, Cle, Ari, Wash, Dal, Den
Miami's owner said he wants a franchise QB. End of story. All of the other teams are waiting to see how their QB turns it on, or in Indy's case, gets healthy.
Arizona however has 60 million reasons to stick with Kolb.
Get Dallas outta there...No way Jones gives up on his boy-toy...
We have a problem...Of the 9 teams ahead of us...5 would definitely go QB...And Indy and Zona are questions...After Luck goes it's all wide open on the next 2...And those next 2 DO NOT include Tannehill and Weeden...I don't know WTH you're lookin' at but SCRATCH those 2 right now...
Many may not like it but it is time to start lookin' at this draft positioning...If we end up at 10 we're SCREWED...As far as QB's go...Our BEST shot at any of the 3 top QB's is to PRAY that Carolina and St. Loius keep losing...And would take a trade down...
Our best shot at the BEST QB in this draft is to have the Rams and Carolina continue suckin' it up...Miami is probably the team that ends up with Luck...By far they have the toughest division around em'...They'll pull one outta their ass and end up 1-15...
We gotta have the Rams and/or Carolina end up 2 and/or 3 if we want a QB...If not we have no chance at moving up...
Quote: If I'm Indy's GM I pick Luck, period. Let him hold a clipboard like Rogers in GB. That team knows better than any other the value of a franchise QB.
There is no doubt in my mind that the Colts would take him. If he is indeed the top prospect, why wouldn't they?
The Colts are one of the better drafting teams in the League imo.
But no team is sucking for Luck no more so then the fish.
Quote: If I'm Indy's GM I pick Luck, period. Let him hold a clipboard like Rogers in GB. That team knows better than any other the value of a franchise QB.
There is no doubt in my mind that the Colts would take him. If he is indeed the top prospect, why wouldn't they?
The Colts are one of the better drafting teams in the League imo.
But no team is sucking for Luck no more so then the fish.
Lately the Colts have been terrible in the draft.
Their first round picks since 2005: Marlin Jackson, Joseph Addai, Anthony Gonzalez, Tony Ugoh (traded 2008 1st rounder to pick him in the 2nd in 2007), Donald Brown, and Jerry Hughes (too early to judge Castonzo). And if you look at their 2nd-round picks, it gets even worse.
Just a random thought as I rewatch the Stanford-USC game. David DeCastro is the best interior line prospect I've ever seen. He's going to be incredibly good in the NFL.
Isn't that the truth. I'm still upset about winning that crapfest against Seattle. We'd be looking at pick #5 if not for that "win". That win alone is going to cost us at least 4 draft spots. Sad really.
In Browns fashion we'll beat two out of StL, Jax and Zona...so we end up with 5 wins (4 of which will be against teams with 3 or less wins) whoopie! Super Bowl! The end result is we're still epically terrible, yet we win JUST ENOUGH to screw ourselves out of better draft prospects so we can actually fix this thing.
Indy has this thing figured out. If you're gonna suck? Go all in. They'll be back in the playoffs next year AND will have secured their new franchise QB for the next 15 years who will get to learn behind Peyton.
Isn't that the truth. I'm still upset about winning that crapfest against Seattle. We'd be looking at pick #5 if not for that "win". That win alone is going to cost us at least 4 draft spots. Sad really.
In Browns fashion we'll beat two out of StL, Jax and Zona...so we end up with 5 wins (4 of which will be against teams with 3 or less wins) whoopie! Super Bowl! The end result is we're still epically terrible, yet we win JUST ENOUGH to screw ourselves out of better draft prospects so we can actually fix this thing.
Indy has this thing figured out. If you're gonna suck? Go all in. They'll be back in the playoffs next year AND will have secured their new franchise QB for the next 15 years who will get to learn behind Peyton.
Told my buddy the other day I'd feel a lot better about this situation had we not beat the Colts and Dolphins, as weird as that sounds.
I still don't stand for sucking for Luck but just taking things for what it is, yeah it'd have been better had we lost those games.
Meh....you play to win the games. Even if we are finish with 4, 5 or 6....this team needs to win every game they can.
There's no guarantee Luck is the next Elway and even if he is, he might pull a Rivers and demand to be traded. So, we could go 0-16 and still miss out on him. And I don't want an 0-16 season, ever.
We'll get 6 good picks in the first four rounds. We can move up if we need to....or fix all other areas (LG, RG, RT, WR, RB, LB & CB).
Look at St. Louis. They have Bradford....and they still stink. We can't do anything with a franchise QB if the team around him stinks. Build the team, BPA and everything will fall into place.
Great point. 40+ super bowls were won without Andrew Luck and many more will be won without him. He's not the final piece to this team but it'd be so nice to have a prospect like that, lol.
Bottom line is we're going to have 2 chances to get good quality players in the first round. I really really like the talent pool in this upcoming draft too. I think there are a ton of guys who would look really good in a Browns uni.
Quote: I just don't see Luck as the sure fire pick that everyone else does
Luck has ridiculous upside, but I think he's got the potential to be a flop, too.
I think Barkley is a safer pick.
Wait, what?
I can understand if you think Luck isn't the surefire, slam dunk, #1 pick. (Have you been hanging out with Phil Simms?) But I can't understand why you would think Barkley is the safer pick. Luck can at the very least do everything Barkley can do and he is more mobile. That right there makes him better.
I've been saying for months that I don't that so much of Luck's success comes outside of the pocket.
I don't like that he doesn't make NFL throws (I said that before the Phil Simms story came out, if you care to look back).
I don't like that Stanford runs so many designed rollouts, causing Luck to only read half the field and not have to go through progressions.
I think Luck is a little overrated. I think his hype comes too much from the media. I mean, Simms was right, when he throws an INT, all you hear is, "Did you see how Luck responded to that INT!?"
I'm not saying Luck won't be good. I'm not saying Luck can't do the things I just listed. I'm saying I haven't seen him do it.
I won't have access to the combine, or his pro days, so what I have to go off of is what I've seen on TV.
On TV, I've SEEN Barkley do the things that I haven't seen from Luck. I KNOW Barkley can do those things, because he's been asked to do it.
Can Luck? Maybe. Probably. But from where I sit, I can't see that.
It is the NFL, and I think the one thing I've always counted on is that if it's too good to be true, it probably is.
Nothing is for sure. You're never as good as you look or as bad as you think you are. We look back at all the draft busts in the history of the league, and it's easy to laugh at a franchise for putting everything they had into him, but at the same time, it's easy to forget how great those players looked prior to them actually getting on an NFL field.
I like Luck a lot, I have watched just about all of his games, but I see Bryan's point. He's not for sure going to be a great QB.
I also like Barkley a lot. I like that he stays in the pocket, and plays in an offense geared towards prep for the NFL. No guarantee on him either, he's the exact same size as Mark Sanchez, who's overrated in my opinion and is the product of a great defense and a few nice weapons. I think Barkley ends up being a slightly better prospect once the dust settles in a few months.
Quote: I think Barkley ends up being a slightly better prospect once the dust settles in a few months.
Better than Sanchez or better than Luck?
Sanchez, yeah. I can't see him being rated higher than Luck although I thought he matched Luck in a head to head battle a few weeks ago.
Sanchez was a top 10 pick and was projected so, I think Barkley is probably viewed as a top 5 right now? Maybe top 3 if the right teams are in place (STL not being in the 3)
With that said, if all I'm getting out of Barkley is another Sanchez, I'll pass. We can do better with that pick. And I'll wait until a real big time QB is available for us to pick at another time.
If we can't get Luck I think Barkley is a pretty good option as the second quarterback. But if he is a top three pick (which I think he is too) we won't have a shot at him either. Especially if the Seahawks are picking in front of us. Pete Carroll loves Matt Barkley. When Barkley was starting as a true freshman Carroll would openly blame other players for Barkley's mistakes.
(Also, the Dolphins would obviously take Barkley and they will be picking in front of us. And with the way Kevin "Corn on the" Kolb has played I don't see how the Cardinals wouldn't take a QB.)
Are Landry Jones, Nick Foles, Brandon Weeden, Case Keenum, or Ryan Tannehill worth a top ten pick? I say no. But then again everyone went QB crazy in the 2011 draft (Newton, Locker, Gabbert, and Ponder all went in the top 12).
Quote: We have to get one of the top 3 QB's, in my opinion.
The third being...Landry Jones?
Quote: But, I think Barkley >>>> Sanchez.
I don't think Sanchez has reached his ceiling, for whatever reason. I think they are very similar QB's. Also, I'm not sure Barkley leaves school. I think he will leave, but I don't think it is a sure thing. I know he would like to play in a BCS Bowl at USC or something better than the Emerald Bowl.
Quote: We have to get one of the top 3 QB's, in my opinion.
As for "If all I'm getting is another Sanchez, I'd pass"
I disagree. Look at our QB situation over the past 12 years. I'd be thrilled with even a Sanchez at this point.
But, I think Barkley >>>> Sanchez.
I think Mark Sanchez would only look a tad better than Colt in our offense.
As far as you thinking Barkley is a better prospect than D. Sanchez? I tend to agree too. He just seems more big time when he makes his throws.
Aside from the physical/football stuff I think that says a lot about him that he stuck around at SC. Wasn't he allowed to leave USC after the sanctions without the whole sitting out a year transfer thing? I thought I heard that somewhere.
If that's true, I love it. Things got tough and he doesn't punk out and go for greener pastures.
I know Colt ain't like that, but how many other guys on that team right now wouldn't bolt for a better team if they had the chance?
I could name probably 8 Quarterbacks in the league I'd give up both first round picks for, another 5-6 I'd give up just one (the highest) first round pick for and another 5-6 I'd give up our 2nd first round pick for.
Overall, I'd give some combination of first round picks for probably 18-20 QB's in the NFL right now. Just for some competency at the position.
1. Aaron Rodgers 2. Drew Brees 3. Tom Brady 4. Matt Stafford 5. Eli Manning 6. Ben Rothlisberger 7. Matt Schaub 8. Cam Newton 9. Matt Ryan 10. Phillip Rivers
#1 First Round Pick -
11. Tony Romo 12. Michael Vick 13. Jay Cutler 14. Carson Palmer
#2 First Round Pick -
15. Andy Dalton 16. Mark Sanchez 17. Jason Campbell 18. Mark Sanchez 19. Josh Freeman 20. Joe Flacco
There's 20 guys (in no order) I'd give up picks for.
I don't remember where, but this morning I read that the Browns are the only team in the league that does not have a definitive answer at QB, RB, or WR. Not one guy capable of making a play.
Hell, the only playmaker we have is totally dependent upon the other team being dumb enough to kick him the ball.
Especially considering that Sanchez has had better OL play, a much better running game, and better overall WR play explain to me why it's worth giving up a 1st round pick for him?
Ditto Jason Campbell (and factor in his age too - he's not getting better)
Freeman may have been a 1 year wonder (hasn't been any better than Colt this year).
Flacco is playing nearly as bad as Colt this year (he has more good experience backing up his long-term potential than Freeman though)
Dalton has only been marginally better than Colt this year (though he's a rookie, so I see the reason for optimism with him)
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we average 3.1 YPC in the running game. Only Tenn is as pathetic running the ball as we are this year. Colt is taking a ton of hits when we go to pass as well as blitzers are coming through unblocked.
I know Colt has played poorly and alot is on him too (he's gotta hit those 5-10yd passes to the WR/TE in stride for god-sakes). But, this is silly to think it's all on him.
Sanchez has played Dallas, Jacksonville, Oakland, Baltimore, New England, Miami, San Diego, Buffalo.
We have played Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Miami, Tennessee, Oakland, Seattle, San Franciso, Houston
Sanchez has played better competition, has his team in 1st place, and isn't putting up his numbers in garbage time against defenses that have already started thinking about what they're gonna say in the post game interview.
Stats are for losers.
I'll take Sanchez any day of the week over Colt McCoy.
Quote: I'll take Sanchez any day of the week over Colt McCoy.
but, that was not the question (that you provided yourself). the question was whether you would give up on Colt McCoy and give up our 2nd 1st round pick for Sanchez.
I would not. I do not think he is enough of an upgrade to even consider it.
Also, great that you provided the teams that both QBs have played. I included the NFL ranking in parenthesis for their pass defense by QBrating to those (QBrating isn't perfect, but it's better than any other singular stat)
Quote:
Sanchez has played Dallas(11), Jacksonville(13), Oakland(8), Baltimore(3), New England(26), Miami(30), San Diego(27), Buffalo(5).
We have played Cincinnati(14), Indianapolis(32), Miami(30), Tennessee(18), Oakland(8), Seattle(22), San Franciso(6), Houston(2)
average pass defense NYJ have faced = 15.4 average pass defense CLE have faced = 16.5
yes, we'd have to have something factor that then goes and takes out opponent strength and such. if you know of a site that has this done, then please post. but, in general, it's not like McCoy has faced the softest pass defenses and Sanchez has faced the toughest ones.
Quote: With that said, if all I'm getting out of Barkley is another Sanchez, I'll pass. We can do better with that pick. And I'll wait until a real big time QB is available for us to pick at another time.
Right there is where u guys majorly fail at this...
Build the team then go for the QB is BS...If u don't have a Franchise QB u DRAFT em' NOW...And if the dude is bonafide u GO UP AND GET EM'...Even if it's a Barkley available at 3 and we're sitting at 7...GET EM'...
Newsflash...If you're winning 6 or 8 games and need a QB...GOOD FLIPPEN LUCK...You're drafting way too low to get the top quality QB's...
I don't know if you were for or against that post you quoted, but to me, Sanchez isn't bona fide. I don't think he helps the Browns much if he were on this current team. I think we're probably right around where we are now.
That of course, is assuming I knew ahead of time that Matt B. would only be as good as what Sanchez has shown us through 3 years.
But like Bryan said, and I agree, Barkley is a better prospect than Sanchez was, and I totally agree we should trade up to get him should we not be in the top 3 or whatever.
We probably more than any other franchise value our draft picks more than anyone else. They are our gold.
1.2 yards/attempt difference is huge .... and I don't even like Sanchez. I would take him over McCoy, but I don't believe that eh will ever be a difference maker. He's like Game Manager + ........ a slight upgrade, who is capable of having a spectacular game once in a while, only to let you down the next.
Quote: 1.2 yards/attempt difference is huge .... and I don't even like Sanchez. I would take him over McCoy, but I don't believe that eh will ever be a difference maker. He's like Game Manager + ........ a slight upgrade, who is capable of having a spectacular game once in a while, only to let you down the next.
Yes. I'm not saying I wouldn't take Sanchez over McCoy right now, because I would, but I was more saying I wouldn't waste a high pick on Sanchez because I don't think he helps this team very much. He's got it way better in NY with a good O-line, RB's, WR's and a top notch defense.
I think there are QB's in the league that could possibly make Mo Mass and Little look better, but Sanchez ain't one of them, and if that's the case, neither would Barkley if that were his ceiling.
Quote: There's no guarantee Luck is the next Elway and even if he is, he might pull a Rivers and demand to be traded.
1. I like that you first used Elway, but then switched to someone else when giving an example of someone who told the team that drafted him to trade him (something Elway did to Indy)
Who knows how history might have changed if Elway would have played in Indy ...... maybe the Baltimore Colts would have generated massive excitement because of dramatically improved play .... sold out their games ...... never moved ......and thus Modell would have had no where to go ..........
Quote: I'll take Sanchez any day of the week over Colt McCoy.
Right now Sanchez is better.. I think most peoples point is that he isn't THAT MUCH better and he isn't the guy people would be excited to build their team around. Could he take us from a 4 win team to a 7 win team? Probably, could he take us to a 12 or 13 win team and a super bowl run? I don't see it in him... and that's what we need.
Quote: There's no guarantee Luck is the next Elway and even if he is, he might pull a Rivers and demand to be traded.
1. I like that you first used Elway, but then switched to someone else when giving an example of someone who told the team that drafted him to trade him (something Elway did to Indy)
2. Manning (Eli), not Rivers.
Ha ha ha....Sorry, I was in a meeting at the time and my mind was elsewhere. Dang....I could have just kept Elway there. And man, it was Eli not Rivers. Ha ha ha...."you'll have to fogive my friend, he's a little slow."
Quote: I don't remember where, but this morning I read that the Browns are the only team in the league that does not have a definitive answer at QB, RB, or WR. Not one guy capable of making a play.
Hell, the only playmaker we have is totally dependent upon the other team being dumb enough to kick him the ball.
Yet, the united cluelessness of this board wants to draft OL early...so they can see that those non playmakers ARE non playmakers anyway
Quote: the Browns are the only team in the league that does not have a definitive answer at QB, RB, or WR.
I agree that we don't have any of those positions filled definitively. I think we are the only ones though; the Seahawks (Tavaris Jackson/Charlie Whitehurst, Marshawn Lynch, and Sidney Rice) seem to have the same problem. I guess Rice is alright though. The Redskins have Beck/Grossman, Helu/Torain, and a whole bunch of nothing a WR. Denver has Tebow (maybe), McGahee (hardly a long term answer), and Eric Decker?
I know it's not your point, but it seems like there are at least a few others that are in the same situation as us.
Quote: Yet, the united cluelessness of this board wants to draft OL early...so that can see that those non playmakers ARE non playmakers anyway
I'm one of those..and if you want to insult me..at least spell the word right...it's clueless... not cluelessness... ... also it's play makers... not playmakers..
Lineman are imo play makers... Line men are play makers by keeping the defensive players out of the offense's back field...and making plays by blocking and setting up protection for the QB to pass , or hand the ball off to your so called play maker...
If the RB is getting hit as soon as the ball is handed to him..How do you expect him to make a play ?
If the QB has a defender on him before he can step back and set...how is he to make a play ?
I personally get tired of seeing the Browns QB scrambling for his life... or the backs getting hit in the back field...
I'm old school.. I enjoy seeing battles on the lines...Line men busting up a Defensive player to protect his QB... So it gives the play makers a chance to be just that...
I also agree that certain athletes can over come situations and make plays... And I would love to have them on this team...But my clueless ass still loves to see a strong O line....Whether it be early or late in the draft...
Quote: Speaking of Keanu, why is he a former Ohio State QB in more than one movie? Weird, no?
And both had awful last games while there too.....Johnny Utah blew his knee out in the Rose Bowl and then Falco choked in the Sugar Bowl (don't remember the details though).
Quote: so they can see that those non playmakers ARE non playmakers anyway
Wouldn't you agree that it seems like Greg Little at least has the potential to be a "playmaker"?
Everyone has "potential".
Fact is that, right now, Greg Little averages 9 yards/reception. That is pathetic. There are several RB in the NFL with a higher yards/catch average. Most TE have a higher yards/catch average. Little shows some potential, but his lack of outright speed worries me. He is strong as all get out ..... with exceptional power ...... but has shown no real breakaway speed ..... or even above average speed. That is a concern for a WR.
Quote: Yet, the united cluelessness of this board wants to draft OL early...so that can see that those non playmakers ARE non playmakers anyway
I'm one of those..and if you want to insult me..at least spell the word right...it's clueless... not cluelessness... ... also it's play makers... not playmakers..
Lineman are imo play makers... Line men are play makers by keeping the defensive players out of the offense's back field...and making plays by blocking and setting up protection for the QB to pass , or hand the ball off to your so called play maker...
If the RB is getting hit as soon as the ball is handed to him..How do you expect him to make a play ?
If the QB has a defender on him before he can step back and set...how is he to make a play ?
I personally get tired of seeing the Browns QB scrambling for his life... or the backs getting hit in the back field...
I'm old school.. I enjoy seeing battles on the lines...Line men busting up a Defensive player to protect his QB... So it gives the play makers a chance to be just that...
I also agree that certain athletes can over come situations and make plays... And I would love to have them on this team...But my clueless ass still loves to see a strong O line....Whether it be early or late in the draft...
Ironically, that would be overcome, not over come. Don't pee over yourself about other people's spelling if you don't hold yourself to the same standard.
The point is to not reach for a lineman in the first round. If the guy is expected to still be there in the 2nd round, why waste a first round pick on him? It's just a clueless decision with all of our needs.
Quote: so they can see that those non playmakers ARE non playmakers anyway
Wouldn't you agree that it seems like Greg Little at least has the potential to be a "playmaker"?
Would you agree that because of the Pattern of Talent leaving Cleveland, that today, Greg Little has no more potential as a Brown than Jerome Harrisson had after his 1st season as a Brown, because Greg Little, will likely not be a Brown in 2 and a half years.
Hey! Since Reuben Droughns, and Joe Jurivicious, they haven't kept Any offensive skill position players for more than 2 and a half years, except? Ben Watson? Mohamad Massaquoi? and Josh. Did I miss anybody? 1st, 2nd or 3rd string? Offensive line doesn't count.
1. Aaron Rodgers 2. Drew Brees 3. Tom Brady 4. Matt Stafford 5. Eli Manning 6. Ben Rothlisberger 7. Matt Schaub 8. Cam Newton 9. Matt Ryan 10. Phillip Rivers
#1 First Round Pick -
11. Tony Romo 12. Michael Vick 13. Jay Cutler 14. Carson Palmer
#2 First Round Pick -
15. Andy Dalton 16. Mark Sanchez 17. Jason Campbell 18. Mark Sanchez 19. Josh Freeman 20. Joe Flacco
There's 20 guys (in no order) I'd give up picks for.
Well just because you don't know what you are doing...doesn't mean we have to join along.....Glad we have Heckert in the FO.....all I have to say on this post....
1. Aaron Rodgers 2. Drew Brees 3. Tom Brady 4. Matt Stafford 5. Eli Manning 6. Ben Rothlisberger 7. Matt Schaub 8. Cam Newton 9. Matt Ryan 10. Phillip Rivers
#1 First Round Pick -
11. Tony Romo 12. Michael Vick 13. Jay Cutler 14. Carson Palmer
#2 First Round Pick -
15. Andy Dalton 16. Mark Sanchez 17. Jason Campbell 18. Mark Sanchez 19. Josh Freeman 20. Joe Flacco
There's 20 guys (in no order) I'd give up picks for.
Well just because you don't know what you are doing...doesn't mean we have to join along.....Glad we have Heckert in the FO.....all I have to say on this post....
I would trade Alex Mack for any of those QBs (except maybe Palmer and Campbell)....we'd be a better team with a random 3rd round C and 1 of those QBs than Mack and McCoy...not even close
Quote: Yet, the united cluelessness of this board wants to draft OL early...so that can see that those non playmakers ARE non playmakers anyway
Lineman are imo play makers... Line men are play makers by keeping the defensive players out of the offense's back field...and making plays by blocking and setting up protection for the QB to pass , or hand the ball off to your so called play maker...
I get you point, I just think that until we get somebody on this team capable of changing the game, creating a spark, doing something that your average grocery bagger isn't capable of doing, what we're seeing is what we're going to continue to see.
I don't consider OL playmakers, er... play makers, for this reason. Joe Thomas could be the best OL ever to sniff the field, but if the center misses his block, with a scrub RB, the plays dead. Adrian Peterson has the ability to make that guy miss, truck the LBer and outrun the safety to the endzone. We have nobody physically capable of just plain being better then other guy and putting points on the board. Or causing a turnover when the game feels like it's slipping away. Or getting a big stop on 3rd and 1 with the game on the line...
Maybe surefire for the Browns, but not for anyone else. 
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