2012 Draft Continued Again - DawgTalkers.net

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this forum for the past few months and it seems like every day I flip flop back and forth on what I want H&H to do over the next few months. Someone said it earlier that they cannot wait for it to be February (Free Agency/Combine) and April (Draft) and oh boy do I feel the same way. I think I would be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more productive at work if the draft had already taken place (but then we would be talking about how the Browns are playoff bound with a 10-6 record in 2012

).

Bottom line is, we need to hit on our first 3 picks no matter who they are whether it be all offensive players, all defensive, or a combination of both. This obviously depends a great deal on what happens during free agency. First off, I firmly believe we should NOT draft a QB with our first pick at all. Here is why…

1 - We trade the farm to take Luck and he comes in here with no weapons, just like every other Cleveland Browns QB has done since 1999…he will not be successful with what we have now on this team and missing out the opportunity to add valuable pieces around him because we gave up so much to get him. I have seen that same movie over and over and over again with this team, it’s time to change the channel and watch something else (I don’t even know if that metaphor makes any sense as I’m on vacation and have had a couple of “beverages”…it makes sense in my head right now so I’m going to roll with it

).

2 - I’m not sold on RG3 at all. You have all made good arguments on both sides, but if we, as die-hard fans, cannot come to an agreement on a QB that has a 50% chance of being successful (looking at past drafts of QB’s taken in the first round), I just do not like those odds when we could take someone else, who would have a much higher chance on being successful in this league. Look at the last 2 drafts…I think we could all agree 2 years ago, if Eric Berry falls to us, we take him in a second. Last year, if either Green or Peterson fall to us, we are running to the podium with our pick in record time. The consensus of the majority of us was YES on all 3 of those players. RG3, with the 3rd or 4th pick of this upcoming draft, it seems as if we are 50/50…too high of a chance for a bust in my opinion.

Below is what I think could be a good start to hopefully another solid draft by H&H assuming we do not trade down. Let me know what you think (and obviously this could change depending on what happens in free agency, the combine, who decides to return back to school and where Atlanta picks).

1A Pick – I would almost rate it as a tie between Blackmon and Claiborne with a slight edge going to Claiborne. Third on my list would be Coples. First off, I just don’t see Blackmon being in the same category as Green/Jones and the reason why I say that is last year, most mocks had Blackmon picked to go in the late first or early second before he decided to return back to school. I’m not sure if Blackmon has that sub 4.5 speed that I want to see out of our number one, someone who can stretch the field and get behind the defense. Now, this could change at the combine if he goes like 4.42 or something like that, but I just do not see that happening (please prove me wrong and fall to us). Claiborne on the other hands seems like the safer pick and would give us a lock down secondary for the next 10 years especially with this turning into a pass first league (think Minnifield/Dixon). Yes, we would still need some help at safety, but we can address that later on in the draft (I think I saw one mock having us taking a Safety from LSU, can’t remember his name off the top of my head, but damn, I would just about take anyone from LSU if they can play in the NFL like they do in college). As far as Coples goes, I’m just not 100% sold on him as I have watched him a few times this year and have not been impressed. Obviously, McShay and Kiper see something in him and that’s why they get paid the big bucks, I just don’t see it…what is he good at and did he do it in the games that I was not watching this year???

1B Pick – Many options here depending on where we go with the first pick…I would have to rate them in this order though: WR Michael Floyd – Notre Dame, WR Kendall Wright – Baylor, DE Whitney Mercilus – Illinois or a tie between LB’s Zach Brown – UNC and Ronnell Lewis – Oklahoma. Now, if we take Blackmon, you can rule out the first two. If we take Claiborne, you definitely have to look at the two WR’s. I think Floyd will be off the board by the time this pick comes around. Wright may be also off the board if he goes something like sub 4.45 at the combine, which I think he will. Both have the ability to be #1 WR’s in this league. I think we have a much higher chance landing Wright who to me seems like a Mike Wallace, and if that holds true, I would LOVE to take Wright. If they are both off the board, I would have to go best player available that fits a need (Living in South Carolina, I’m not 100% sold on Jefferies…to me, he seems like a poor man’s Sidney Rice). That being said, Mercilus is a beast…I thought I read this year that he leads the nation with 13.5 sacks and 8 forced fumbles this year??! Not sure if he leads the nation, but that would give us a solid defensive line for years to come as well by putting him opposite of Sheard…NASTY! Not 100% sold on taking a LB with our second first round pick, but if they are best available on H&H’s board, it definitely fills a need. The only other option I could see here is taking an Offensive Lineman. I am not sure how to rank/list these guys so that is why I didn’t put any prospects down.

2nd Round Pick – Once again, depending on how we go with our first two picks, I could see us targeting DE Melvin Ingram – South Carolina or a CB like Chase Minnifield – Virginia…Offensive Line could be looked at here again, but like I said, I do not know enough about any of the prospects to put any names down. Ingram is just nasty on that line of South Carolina. He is a freak athlete (took a fake punt to the house this year I believe like 70 yards) who can get to the QB in a hurry and I believe has 3 INT’s this year as well. Once again, would be a great addition to our front four. The reason I put Minnifield here (and I’ll admit, might be a homer pick as I don’t watch as much ACC football as I do Big-10 and SEC) is the fact that I have heard nothing but good things. If he can play anything like his dad, would be a great steal in the second round.

3rd Round Pick – This is where I see us taking an Offensive Lineman because this is an area where I think we can improve in Free Agency as well as having Steinbach coming back and Pinkston with a year under his belt.

Rounds 4 and on – Here is where we need to improve on depth and team speed. I would take the fastest players available (a la Al Davis and the Raaaaaaaaaaiders (Chris Berman voice)). I would take a chance on Broyles in this round if he is available as an underneath slot type of receiver. I would also like to see us take a fast weak side linebacker who can help cover in passing situations. A developmental QB could be chosen in these later rounds as well as that LSU safety (still can’t remember his name, but then again, the “beverages” are starting to flow into my belly).

Give me any combination of those players listed and I think we could definitely be headed in the right direction with this franchise. Do I think we could make the playoffs next year, prolly not, but then again I think we would have almost all the right pieces in place to grow as a team, a VERY young team. If Colt is not our answer, then we could draft a QB in 2013 (Barkley) or go after one in Free Agency, etc…many different options to choose from. Thoughts???

PS…Am I the only one who hopes the Packers rest their starters and the Lions beat them (assuming the 49’ers win). If that is the case, Atlanta win or lose, would travel to New Orleans to play them versus playing either at Dallas or New York, which is a much more winnable game. A first round loss by Atlanta will mean a pick in the 21-24 range versus a first round win could bump that pick up to the 25-28 range (or higher if they get their revenge from last year versus Green Bay).

In my humble opinion, Coples is a pure 3-4 DE and would not be on my board if I ran a 4-3. Zach Brown I would not draft period. He has skills but he is lazy and his play is contagious in the wrong way.

1. Morris Claiborne CB LSU
1b. Ryan Tannehill QB Texas A&M
2. Whitney Mercilus DE Illinois
3. Robert Lester FS Bama
4. James Carmon OT Miss. St.
4b. JOrdan White WR WEstern Michigan
5. Danny Trevathon OLB UK
6. Chris Rainey RB Florida
6b. Nicolas Jean-Baptiste DT Baylor

Mour i'm starting to lean towards your 1st 3 picks.. Your starting to get me on the Tannehill bandwagon..

Great post, JE159. This thing is driving me nuts, too. I agree on not being sold on RG3. And it would be great to get Blackmon and Mercilus. I could roll with Colt again, because I could see him getting 20 TD passes next year. Second round, I'd go RT. But the thing is, we have to nail down Hillis. We just don't need to blow another hole in the roster. Peyton healthy with a good line is money in the bank. I hope he's not sour on the town and the team.
Finally, I might be the only one, but think Buster Skrine could become a star opposite Haden.

If we don't get Luck I want to surround Colt McCoy with as many playmakers/guys who keep him upright as possible.

I would be very upset with a Tannehill selection.

If we WERE going to grab Tannehill I think it's a guy you need to say "we want to build our franchise around him for the next 3 to 5 years ... MINIMUM" That's what it would set us back if he didn't work out.

I don't dislike Tannehill ... but personally I just don't (or maybe haven't yet) see enough of him to think he will be a real deal. Then again ... I'm still only slightly above lukewarm with RG3 and a few of the others.

I would rather pull a Pats with Saints of last year ... let someone trade up for a great player that slides and take their 2nd while also nabbing a first. If we don't mortgage it all for Luck then why not still use 1A AND have a 2A and 2B while still heading into the 2013 draft with 2 first rounders...?

ESPNs Howard Balzer reported that the #1 Overall pick might be worth 6 first round picks (due to Luck and the new CBA)

Haven't found it outside the rumor mill yet, and I'm suspicious - but damn....

There is an old saying when it comes to scouting a QB, It starts below the knees and ends between the ears. It all starts with the feet and if you have poor feet, you end up with bad throws and lousy accuracy. Tannehill has great feet. He also has it between the ears. The kid is studying to be a surgeon. He also has an NFL body and a really strong arm.

I think a lot are judging him as a finished product and forget the kid played receiver until midway through last year. Mike Sherman raves about how this kid wants to be coached. You dont get more praise from a coach than that.

The bonus is that he knows this offense better than Colt.

When it comes to reading defenses he is at basic Math level and Luck is at advanced Calculus level. That comes from studying film and experience on the field. Now to be fair, noone in college and few in the NFL are equal to Luck at reading defenses and its why he is so coveted. His presnap reads are second to none.

Tannehill needs to raise his release point slightly but he has pretty good mechanics. There are no bad habits to get rid of. He keeps the ball up to his ear and has a nice quick release and throws a tight spiral. He works better from under center than from in the gun and he can run when he needs to. Probably should run more.

Best scenario would be Mike Sherman joins as OC and we draft Tannehill. I believe both are really strong possibilities. Wonder how many phone calls there have been from Holmgren and Heckert to Mike Sherman over the last few months?

They couldnt get 6 firsts if they traded Luck, Manning and Freeney.

If a QB could guarantee us that we could win and do it with 4th and 6th round picks at WR ... and we would be a team that had 10+ wins for 10+ years then I would do it in a heartbeat....

BUT ... I honestly don't know what people would give up for Luck. I don't see ANYONE giving up more than probably 4 straight firsts .... and I think even then it would have to be low firsts ... like a team like San Fran for example where Harbaugh Knows Luck and you assume that those firsts will be mid to late every year.

But wow ... I don't see ANYONE doing more than 3 firsts and 2 seconds ... or possibly 4 firsts but that's pushing it even for a crazy GM ....

In the end I doubt anyone pulls the trigger on more than 3 firsts period.

Thought this was kind of cool

That throw against ASU is ridiculous. Anyone who questions his arm strength will be directed to this video.

Draft notebook: Tar Heels' final impression will last, and hurt too

By Rob Rang | The Sports Xchange/CBSSports.com

In the weeks leading to the draft, NFL general managers are often asked to give team owners a video snapshot of the players they are targeting with early-round selections. Some owners, of course, have more say than others in the evaluation process but many like to see for themselves the young men who could soon be their employees.

Some owners specifically ask to see players' final games -- especially rivalries or bowl games. The thought process is easy to follow: A player worthy of a first- or second-day pick should stand out in their final big game as a collegian.

General managers considering using a top-100 selection on a University of North Carolina defender may have to think twice about showing his team's owner the Independence Bowl. The effort put forth by several prominent prospects was shameful.

Defensive end Quinton Coples entered the 2011 season ranked by many pro scouts as the elite senior prospect in the country, regardless of position. The 6-6, 285-pound Coples had earned All-ACC honors at defensive tackle in 2010 registering 59 tackles, including 15.5 tackles for loss and 10 sacks. He was moved outside for his senior season in the hopes that he'd be even more troublesome for opponents but instead saw his numbers drop in every category.

NFLDraftScout.com has learned that teammates and members of the UNC coaching staff approached Coples midseason about moving back inside to help the Tar Heels get more explosive pass rushers on the edge. Coples declined. His reason, according to a source, was that moving back inside could call into question his versatility and thereby compromise his draft stock.

Though Coples registered two tackles for loss against Missouri, his undisciplined rushes up-field opened up gaping holes that the Tigers exploited for 337 rushing yards -- nearly 10 times that of which UNC (36 yards) was able to accomplish on the ground Monday.

Perhaps most alarming, it wasn't just the seniors who played poorly for North Carolina. Junior inside linebacker Kevin Reddick, a junior thought to be considering making the jump to the NFL early, was virtually invisible. Playing against a Missouri offense that ran simple zone-reads up the middle the majority of the game, Reddick registered just four total tackles, only two of which were solos.

The Tar Heels' most consistent defender this season, senior outside linebacker Zach Brown, also deserves some of the blame. While his stat line looks impressive (14 tackles, two tackles for loss, an interception), only two of his tackles against the run came within four yards of the line of scrimmage. Considering the Tigers had 46 rushing attempts and that the primary knocks on Brown are an inability to get off blocks and play physically, Monday's effort won't help his cause, either.

When incoming head coach Larry Fedora was asked during his introductory press conference December 12 to describe the style of play he expected at North Carolina he said, "As a football team, we will always be attacking. Carolina-style football will be known as playing hard, playing fast, and playing physical."

It shouldn't just be NFL general managers who toss this game-tape into the trash can rather than re-watch it. The new Tar Heel head coach should, as well.

NFL needs juniors to save weak OT class

University of Southern Cal offensive tackle Matt Kalil opted to forgo his senior season and take the leap to the NFL.

Pro teams needing help at offensive tackle can only hope other juniors will follow his lead as some scouts think this is the worst crop of senior exterior offensive linemen the league has seen in the past 20 years.

"It's an ugly group, there is no doubt about it," one high-ranking scout said on the condition of anonymity.

"I've been doing this for a long time and I don't recall a draft where there wasn't a single [senior] offensive tackle I'd grade as a first round talent. They just aren't out there this year."

Another scout compared the 2012 class to 2006, when only one offensive tackle -- D'Brickashaw Ferguson -- made the first round. Ferguson, however, was a senior and was an elite talent. He was selected fourth overall by the New York Jets and has been to two Pro Bowls since.

Iowa's Riley Reiff (6-6, 300) and Stanford's Jonathan Martin (6-6, 305), each finishing up their junior seasons, are known to be considering making the jump. Wisconsin's Ricky Wagner (6-6, 320) is another underclassman with the size, talent and experience to potentially earn a top 32 selection.

NFLDraftScout.com currently ranks Ohio State's Mike Adams and Florida State's Zebrie Sanders as the top senior prospects. Both have been given second-round grades.

Fortunately, while the senior offensive tackle class is lacking, the interior group is considered one of the real strengths of the 2012 class.

Stanford junior David DeCastro, whom NFLDraftScout.com has learned is planning on leaving school early for the pros, headlines the group. There are also several collegiate offensive tackles who project best inside at guard, including Georgia's Cordy Glenn, Iowa State's Kelechi Osemele, Washington's Senio Kelemete, Midwestern State's Amini Silatolu and Miami junior Brandon Washington. True guards Lucas Nix (Pittsburgh) Kevin Zeitler (Wisconsin) are others who are already generating top 75 buzz amongst pro scouts.

Coby Fleener most underrated skill position player?

Among my favorite football cliches is that the NFL is a "copycat" league. What works for one team is sure to be copied and attempted by several more.

With the New England Patriots, New Orleans Saints and Green Bay Packers -- three of the league's elite passing attacks -- increasingly shifting their focus towards playmaking tight ends Rob Gronkowski, Jimmy Graham and Jermichael Finley, you can expect other clubs looking for a spark in the passing game to put extra emphasis on tight ends capable of stretching the field.

Stanford senior Coby Fleener could wind up the beneficiary.

NFLDraftScout.com's top-rated senior tight end since October, the 6-6, 245 pound Fleener is quietly earning first-round buzz and may just be the country's most underrated skill position player.

Like Gronkowski, Graham and Finley, Fleener isn't a traditional in-line blocker capable of knocking defenders onto their heels in the running game. He is, however, a former wide receiver offers rare straight-line speed, agility and body control in a huge (and still growing) frame.

Fleener "only" caught 32 passes for The Cardinal but led the team in both touchdown catches (10) and yards per reception (20.2). Despite only starting four games this season at Stanford, Fleener was recognized by Pac-12 coaches as an all-conference pick and earned third team All-American honors by the Associated Press.

Extra Points: Matt Barkley's decision to play at USC -- and not in the NFL -- next season caught many off guard, but those close to the Trojans while certainly pleased, weren't that surprised that the quarterback elected to come back for his senior season. One scout traveling through USC recently noted that Barkley "almost seemed to be looking for an excuse to return." Considering that he'll enter next season as an obvious Heisman candidate on a team with legitimate BCS title hopes and as impressive a returning cast of receivers and backs as there is in the country, he had plenty of "excuses" staring him in the face... One Heisman candidate who may be making the jump to the NFL early, however, is Wisconsin running back Montee Ball. Ball has already insinuated that if he received a first- or second-round grade from the NFL Advisory Committee that he might leave the Badgers. A quick poll of scouts had each assigning a second grade to the 5-9, 212 pound back. ... Fans of the Boise State football annually contend that their beloved Broncos are being underrated by the national press. ... Scouts for the Senior Bowl agrees, as four Broncos have been invited to the preeminent senior all-star game this year. Those invited include quarterback Kellen Moore, running back Doug Martin, defensive lineman Billy Winn and safety George Iloka.

This total ties with the second highest number of players representing any school last year (Miami, Mississippi State). Nebraska led the nation with six players participating in the all-star game festivities.
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I'll be rooting for the Jags and Vikings to win so we can get that #3 overall pick. Great QBs are rarely coming into the league as a great QB. Rogers, Brees, Brady are the 3 best QBs in the league and guess what all were considered a bit of a project.

Chances are if you want a stud QB you are going to have to find someone that fits what you want to do, has a workable skill set and guide him to become a great QB while you build a pretty good cast to support him.

Now as for screwing Tannehill, I am pretty sure he is engaged to a model and you probably aren't his type but hey different strokes for different folks lol.

You can click your hills together and cross fingers and pray to the football gods that Luck is a brown but with as many holes as we have, it is just wishful thinking. If someone is gonna trade up for Luck it will be someone with a competitive roster already in place and someone dumb enough to sale their soul for 1 prospect. We all know how all of those trades work out.

If we trade up for LUck woo hoo we have a great QB. IF we don't, we roll up our sleeves and find someone that fits this offense and has a workable skill set. Sometimes you gotta make your own Luck lol.

jc

nfldraftscout rankings have moved a lot recently and some of my favs have gone up (of course

)...DE Ingram went up to 14th on their board

Based on their updated rankings this would be the players I'd target, barring trades:

1a QB Griffin, CB Claiborn, WR Blackmon

1b CB Dennard, QB Tannehill (?), DE Mercilus (?)...unless a Kirkpatrick, Martin etc drops to this picks I really don't like the value and hope we consider trading that pick Ingram-style (down to the 2nd for a future 1st or 2nd + some mid rounders)

2 DE Mercilus (?), DE Curry, DE Branch, CB Gilmore

3 OT Datko, CB Boykin, G/RT Osemele

4a QB Weeden, G Kelemete, WR TY Hilton, OT Adcock

4b OT Adcock, WR Jenkins, CB Fletcher, WR J.Wright, G Nix

5 FS T.Robinson, RT Schwartz, OLB Kaddu, LB Acho, CB Hayward, T/G Zusevicz, CB Fleming, OLB Trevathan

6a+b CB Tandy, DE Bequette, WR J.White, OT Allen, OT J.Brown, OLB S.Brown, WR Boykin, DT Harrell, CB/FS Golden, RB/WR Demps, S Guy, S Dye

I'd trade our two firsts this year, our second next year and maybe a fourth this year.

And I'd feel sick doing it, but that would be my absolute ceiling.

Anything else, and I think I'm out.

I'm not behind the idea of nabbing Luck and then not being able to put anything around him until the third round at the earliest.

j/c

I don't understand all the hoopla about Luck and why so many on here want to give up the farm to get him. If we were a team like the Jets of the last few years, where a QB would push us over the edge, then I'd get it. But we have many holes. It seems that it would take at least both of our 1sts this year, as well as a 2nd rounder - maybe even more than that - to get Luck.

If we are going the QB route (I think Colt is not the guy for us and it's become apparent to more and more people over the last half season) then I'd rather keep the pick. If we wind up picking 3rd or 4th, we could get RG3 and hold on to our picks.

Our draft could go something like:
Robert Griffin 3 - a dynamic playmaker who has an arm, is intelligent and a freak athlete.

Then we could grab our WR with our other 1st rounder:
Alshon Jeffery/Michael Floyd/Kendall Wright with my preference being Wright as he has the speed to be a deep threat and give us a vertical threat to complement Little's underneath game.

With the 2nd and 3rd rounder we could go BPA at either DE/RT/LB/CB

With four picks we could get a QB, a deep threat WR and two other guys at a position of need. This is all dependent on free agency and us hitting on our picks, of course, but I feel going that route is a better bet than going "all in" on Luck and giving him absolutely 0 weapons. It also helps that I think RG3 is the real deal.

Just my .02

NFL Draft Risers and Fallers

Dane Brugler
By Dane Brugler
NFLDraftScout.com Analyst

With the regular season in the rearview mirror, bowl games allow prospects one final stage to perform under the bright lights before all-star games and pre-draft workouts. The end of the season also puts underclassmen on notice to make decisions about their eligibility and whether or not to turn pro. They have until January 15 to decide on their futures.

A pair of Boise State offensive playmakers are risers this week, but a few linebackers weren't as fortunate. Here's a look at this week's Risers and Fallers:
Risers and Fallers - Dane Brugler -- (Updated 12/28/2011)

Risers
1. Stock Rising
Doug Martin RB Boise State
After missing the TCU game, which turned out to be Boise State's lone loss of 2011, Martin ended his season with four-straight 100-yard rushing performances, culminating last week as the MVP of the MAACO Bowl Las Vegas. He finished the game with a bowl-record 301 all-purpose yards, including 151 yards on the ground and 26 receiving yards, but set the tone early with a 100-yard opening kickoff return for a score.

After a slow start to the season, Martin proved to be the unsung hero of the Boise State offense, finishing second in the Mountain West Conference in rushing with 1,299 yards on 263 carries (4.9 yards per carry) and 16 touchdowns. He has very good vision to find room to work with the balance and leg drive to pick up a lot of yardage after contact.

Martin has explosive change of direction ability and lateral quickness to make sharp jump cuts and get upfield quickly, drawing a lot of comparisons to New Orleans Saints' running back Mark Ingram. He currently stands as the top senior running back for the 2012 NFL Draft and will have a chance to cement that status at the Senior Bowl in January.

2. Stock Rising
Gerell Robinson WR Arizona State
Robinson emerged as the Sun Devil's top receiving threat this season as a senior and he certainly ended his career with his best foot forward last week in the MAACO Bow Las Vegas. Despite falling to Boise State, he set single game-bests with 13 catches for a bowl-record 241 yards, adding one touchdown.

At 6-4, 220 pounds, Robinson has imposing size and length with an impressive catching radius, presenting a large target for his quarterback. He is a good-sized athlete with above average body control and coordination for his frame. Robinson finished the season with 77 receptions for a Pac 12-best 1,397 yards and seven touchdowns, averaging a remarkable 18.1 yards per catch.

Despite a career-high in catches this season, he fights the ball too much and NFL scouts wish he was more consistent completing the catch. Robinson is an intriuging talent for the next level because of his size and athleticism -- his productive senior season will likely earn him a draft pick on the third day.

3. Stock Rising
Michael Smith RB Utah State
While junior RB Robert Turbin is the bell cow runner in the Utah State backfield, Smith is a player that shouldn't be overlooked. Despite a loss to Ohio in the Famous Idaho Potato Bowl, the senior ended his senior season last Saturday with a career performance, rushing 12 times for a career-best 157 yards and 2 TDs. Smith, who attended Eastern Arizona Junior College out of high school before transferring to Utah State in 2009, missed most of the 2010 season with a foot injury and redshirted.

He returned healthy in 2011 as a senior, but had double-digit carries in just three games as he was stuck in a crowded backfield led by Turbin, the WAC Offensive Player of the Year. However, Smith shined in the bowl game, showing off his explosive burst and balance through contact along with his aggressive and instinctive running style. As coach Gary Anderson said after the game, "to end it like that, that typifies Michael Smith."

4. Stock Rising
Brandon Washington OG Miami (Fla.)
While a tad surprising, Washington decided to forego his senior season at Miami and throw his name into the 2012 NFL Draft class. The 6-4, 320-pound lineman was highly recruited out of Miami Northwestern High School, but attended Milford (NY) Academy for a year to qualify academically before suiting up for the Hurricanes in 2009.

After starting at left guard as a sophomore, Washington moved to left tackle this past season where he started all 12 games and earned Second Team All-ACC honors. He has ideal size, frame and quickness for the next level, but what I like most about Washington is his versatility -- he's one of the few prospects in this draft who can realistically play any of the five offensive line positions.

While RB Lamar Miller is expected to be the first Hurricane drafted in April, I think Washington will not be far behind. This class of guard prospects could go down as one of the best in recent memory.

Fallers

1. Stock Falling
Vontaze Burfict ILB Arizona State
When talking about the most disappointing prospects this season, Burfict needs to be near the top of the list. The Arizona State middle linebacker was a first team all-conference player in his first two seasons and was a preseason favorite to be an All-American and defensive player of the year.

However, Burfict has struggled to play disciplined football this season, finishing with 69 tackles. Just like in the bowl game, he spent a lot of time on the sidelines in 2011 because the coaching staff couldn't trust him on the field.

Burfict's uncontrollable intensity and propensity to attract personal foul penalties has been well documented, but he has several other flaws that scouts cannot ignore. He too often goes for the big hit instead of wrapping up and his lack of ideal instincts were exposed on more than one occasion. Burfict is an intimidating force and very gifted player, oozing with potential, but he doesn't play with his head and makes way too many mental mistakes.

With a new coaching staff taking over in Tempe, it will be interesting to see if Burfict decides to rebuild his draft stock as a senior or turn pro with hopes a team will attempt to control his on-field rage.

2. Stock Falling
Zach Brown OLB North Carolina

Brown is one of the most athletic specimens in this draft class. He is a gifted athlete with fluid range and rare explosiveness and movement skills, but he has struggled to take his instincts and finishing ability to the next level. Brown is overaggressive and plays out of control, moving too fast and failing to break down in tight areas. Brown is excellent in pursuit, but he doesn't have great anticipation and needs to do a better job collecting himself and squaring up defenders.

He is able to make up for his lack of recognition skills with supreme speed and closing burst, but he won't be able to get away with this at the next level. Brown is just scratching the surface of his ability, but looks like a boom or bust prospect. If he commits himself to football and works hard to hone his craft then he could be a Pro Bowler. Nevertheless, Brown will test extremely well at the combine and will likely be overdrafted.

3. Stock Falling
Tank Carder OLB TCU
It's tough to imagine a better name for a linebacker than "Tank" but the two-time Mountain West Defensive Player of the Year award winner has seen his NFL draft stock steadily decline during his senior season. Carder is a student of the game and works hard to get the most out of his ability, but he is a very limited athlete with stiff hips and limited burst, struggling to recover after taking false steps.

He has a tough time changing directions and doesn't show a great feel in coverage or space. Carder, who finished his career at TCU with 228 tackles, is an intense competitor and has a lot to offer a pro team, but he will have a tough time winning a starting job at the next level and doesn't warrant a top-125 pick.

We gave up 2 Firsts (1985 & 1986) plus a 3rd and a 6th to get Kosar and Luck has less questions about him then Bernie did when he came out and you don't hear to many people complaining about that trade.

I think we might be able to swing a deal with Indy for both our 1sts and our 3rd rnd pick in this coming draft plus our 2nd rnd pick the following year.

I'd feel more comfortable if St. Louis was the team we were trading with.

It would take more to get Bradford, and you are ignoring the cap problems the Rams would face by trading Bradford.

They have a $30 million problem on their hands.

Bradford isn't going anywhere for at least 2 more years.

J/C

I don't see Indy taking Luck unless they want to dump Manning and start the rebuilding process. DE Mathis, OL Diem, and WRs Wayne, Gonzalez, and Garcon are all Free Agents at the end of the year plus a lot of Indy's core players will be close to 30 or older next year. I think they'll trade the pick to get extra picks and make another run at the SuperBowl before Manning retires.

With our 1st rnd pick at 4 or 5 they could add CB Claiborne then with our 20 something pick maybe WR Floyd then with their othcr picks and any other(s) they receive in trade they can add to their Defense to beef it up.

I have a feeling they draft Luck, let all the big time free agents go, probably let manning go, maybe they keep him, and Jim Tressel becomes coach.

Jim Caldwell is not HC material. Not 100% fair to him since that team was built around Manning, but he's just not a guy I want going forward if I'm the Colts front office.

1a. RG3
1b. Michael Floyd
2. Chase Minnifield

I would be very happy with this being our first 3 picks.

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1a. RG3

Please, no!

I'm gonna keep screaming this til April.

Do NOT draft RGIII!

j/c

A QB-WR combo from Baylor with our two 1st Rd picks?

Good Lord.

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Please, no!

I'm gonna keep screaming this til April.

Do NOT draft RGIII!

I'll be screaming right there with you! This team needs to draft BPA, not need. It's not like we're one player away.

Oh, I want a QB.

Just not RGIII

What about a LaMichael James in the 2nd or 3rd round? The kid is a pretty good ball player.

No thanks, he's too soft

LaMichael James is scared of roller coasters.

That is something I would go for. I wanted Jacquizz Rodgers last year. James is a similar type of player, little guy who can probably carry the load. And he's fast.

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1a. RG3
1b. Michael Floyd
2. Chase Minnifield

I would be very happy with this being our first 3 picks.

I would be ecstatic with those as our 1st 3 picks. Add in a RT and OLB with the next 2 and it would be a perfect draft.

Here is my mock draft for our first three picks:

1. Andrew Luck

I like that mock.

Me too, I like that mock. I just dunno if that'll be enough to get him. My theory, our two firsts and next year's first. That's probably gonna be what gets us in the ball park. From there, possibly one of our thirds and a fourth. But if it is our 2nd, I guess so be it. I draw the line at, three firsts and one second.

My Mock would look something like this. It starts with a trade down to pick up extra picks which is easy this year under the new agreement and the position we are in. If we get an extra 2nd we go RT if not that is 3rd round. Then I would go

1a) Vontaze Burfict
1b)Kendall Wright
2)Vinny Curry

I would not be happy with that at all. Burfict has some huge question marks. Also, I've been surprisingly happy with our linebackers once Fujita went out. Gocong, Jackson, and Maiava have all played pretty well. If we could sign a free agent to compete with Maiava/push him to the bench I think we are set.

If Burfict comes out I don't even think he is a 1st round pick. He is very talented, but ASU had to take him off the field at some points during the season because he couldn't be controlled. That says a lot to me as he was there best player.

No they tried to take him out of the game and he wouldn't come out. Yeah, The only question marks I see are that he plays with a super fierce attitude and a Motor that we haven't seen around here ever. If we don't get him I guarantee Baltimore or Detroit takes him. It would allow us to move Jackson outside. Maiva is a great Backup..but I watched the guy. He made some plays, but he missed a lot of assignments and whiffed on more than his fair share of Tackles.

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No they tried to take him out of the game and he wouldn't come out.

False.

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Things continue to look bad for Arizona State junior linebacker Vontaze Burfict . In the Sun Devils' 47-38 loss to California, Burfict was benched in the third quarter following his second personal foul of a drive.

Burfict never re-entered the game and the Arizona Republic speculates that it was because he refused to do so

Source

Do you think you can just make stuff up and people either don't know or won't check? And even if he did what you said and refused to come out of the game isn't that just as bad?

Also, it was unclear whether Dennis Erickson was going to let Burfict play in ASU's bowl game.

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Burfict's status was unclear following reports of his actions late in the Nov. 25 game against California. According to program sources, Burfict was benched for a series after committing a personal foul. He then refused to re-enter the game, a 47-38 loss that dropped ASU to 6-6.

link

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It would allow us to move Jackson outside.

Why move Jackson when he is playing at a Pro Bowl level at his current position?

Yes He was benched..He also refused to come out(not sur what game) ..maybe you just missed it. Burfict refuses to come out Moving Jackson outside in this D is nothing new. I have seen Mocks with us grabbing him with that exact idea in mind. The guy has ability and a Competitive side that doesn't come around that often. Yes, he needs to control it and when he matures and realizes that he will be even better. I don't care for having Robots anymore..If they can play and make an impact and isn't messed up too much off the field then get him. Would I take James Harrison..yes. Would I take Suh..Yes, would I take Ray Lewis..Yes. I don't want Paul Polusney(?) or Luke Keuchly..I want a Banger..I want that middle of the D to have razor sharp teeth. Every time Bolden or Antonio Brown or AJ Green come across the middle I want them to fear attempting to catch the Ball.

Watch Him Ball Good shot of Him taking of Marecics head in there to..lol

Sheard/Taylor/Rubin/Curry

Burfict, if he's to get his head together, get disciplined, and be successful in the NFL, would be best suited to get drafted by an established defense that can get him ready and then plug him in, rather than one that needs to rely on him early. Baltimore, Pittsburgh, etc.

We don't have the luxury of taking that flier right now, IMO.

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That is something I would go for. I wanted Jacquizz Rodgers last year. James is a similar type of player, little guy who can probably carry the load. And he's fast.

I think we need to resign Hillis, and use Jordan as a change of pace back...the dude has wheels. And speed is something we are missing.....BAD!

1a.RG3 qb
1b.Michael Floyd wr
2.Chase Minnifield cb
3.LaMichael Jordan rb
4.Best Guard on the board

4 playmakers with 4 picks.....or we can just draft Andrew Luck and watch him get killed as he as no weapons at his disposal.

63 tackles for a MLB is a joke. The guy has more personal fouls than tackles for loss. 4th round project.

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63 tackles for a MLB is a joke. The guy has more personal fouls than tackles for loss. 4th round project.

No way on earth..Give me some of that! I don't see him going out of 1 and depending on his interviews and Combine could slide into the teens. If a GM thinks they can bottle that and he reassures them of that, He will be the best LB to come out of this draft.

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Burfict, if he's to get his head together, get disciplined, and be successful in the NFL, would be best suited to get drafted by an established defense that can get him ready and then plug him in, rather than one that needs to rely on him early. Baltimore, Pittsburgh, etc.

We don't have the luxury of taking that flier right now, IMO.

I would have to disagree..This is a guy you plug in and he makes your Defense. He completes your identity.

Burfict
Burfict can’t seem to get out of his own way. By far the most naturally gifted player in this class. He has the instincts, speed, athleticism, and temperament to be one of the greats at the position. Unfortunately, Burfict can’t seem to harness his aggression in a positive way on the field. He ended his collegiate career at ASU by being pulled from the game following two personal foul penalties. Under the right coaches and locker room, Burfict could wind up a steal.

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My Mock would look something like this. It starts with a trade down to pick up extra picks which is easy this year under the new agreement and the position we are in. If we get an extra 2nd we go RT if not that is 3rd round. Then I would go

1a) Vontaze Burfict
1b)Kendall Wright
2)Vinny Curry

I like the trading down - I'm on board for dropping to Washington's spot so they can take RG3. We pick up a 3rd or better then draft

1a) Trent Richardson, RB
1b) David DeCastro, OG
2) Dwight Jones, WR
3a) Andrew Datko, RT
3b) Andre Branch, DE

Though I'll bet DeCastro is gone before 1b. If so I take Mercilus at 1b and BPA of OG, CB, FS, OLB at 3b.

I highly doubt we look at DeCastro. I'd love to, but I don't see it.

If I had to guess (and it's as blind a guess as any of us), I'd say Heckert is going to stick with Lauvao and Pinkston. They're his picks.

I do like Mercilus a lot from what I've seen. If he's our 1b, we can (hopefully) dust off our hands and call it a D-line. It would be about depth from that point.

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Watch Him Ball Good shot of Him taking of Marecics head in there to..lol

Sheard/Taylor/Rubin/Curry

I want Vinny Curry so bad... 2nd round.. if he's there.. we BETTER get this guy.. and he has a ton of experience playing RDE.. perfect since Sheard plays the left side.

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I highly doubt we look at DeCastro. I'd love to, but I don't see it.

If I had to guess (and it's as blind a guess as any of us), I'd say Heckert is going to stick with Lauvao and Pinkston. They're his picks.

I do like Mercilus a lot from what I've seen. If he's our 1b, we can (hopefully) dust off our hands and call it a D-line. It would be about depth from that point.

Ben Grubbs and Carl Nicks are free agents too, so I don't see Heckert going that way early in the draft.

My Browns mock would be something like this:

1a. Robert Griffin III, QB, Baylor
1b. Kendall Wright, WR, Baylor
2. Sam Montgomery, DE, LSU
3. Miles Burris, LB, San Diego State
4a. Trumaine Johnson, CB, Montana
4b. Isiah Pead, RB, Cincinnati
5. Tom Compton, OT, South Dakota

What's all this trade down talk?

We have a top 5 pick, probably top 4...if we don't come away with 1 of Luck, Claiborne or Blackmon, the top 3 value guys, I will consider it a fail...this draft isn't deep and it has a pretty weak top 20 outside of those 3 + Kalil...guys like Zach Brown and Coples were considered top 20, even top 10 selections and UNC got shredded by Missouri

Yeah, there's no way in hell I'm trading out of the top five.

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Watch Him Ball Good shot of Him taking of Marecics head in there to..lol

Sheard/Taylor/Rubin/Curry

I want Vinny Curry so bad... 2nd round.. if he's there.. we BETTER get this guy.. and he has a ton of experience playing RDE.. perfect since Sheard plays the left side.

Me too! minus Luck and a few offensive Tackles I am not enamored by the top of this draft offensively. I would like to add an identity and some tenacity which is why I like Burfict and Curry. They are game changers and difference makers. We might as well finish off this D as I think this will be the last draft that we will have to plug in a New draft pick because we have no other choice on that side of the Ball. They will all be Young and under contract and I like it. We obviously need a Free Safety and CB, but FA and maybe Skrien or Hagg can step in.. Curry gave Mike Adams from OSU fits.

Just as a frame of reference this is how the Browns got Bernie Kosar remember:

Cleveland traded their first round picks in the 1985 NFL Draft (#7) and 1986 NFL Draft, their third round pick in 1985 (#63) and their sixth round pick in 1986 to the Buffalo Bills for their first round pick in the 1986 NFL Draft. Since the Bills had the worst record in the 1984 season, they held the first pick in both the regular NFL draft and the supplemental draft in 1985. When a selection is used in the supplemental draft, that team forfeits the pick in the next regular draft which meant that the Browns could use the Bills 1986 regular draft first round pick as the first pick in the 1985 supplemental draft.

There should be no question about trading to get Andrew Luck. I doubt anybody regrets the trade to get Bernie.

And no matter how you slice it Bernie was not the prospect that Luck is.

For those concerned about giving up to much:

Just exactly what do we have to lose really? We would swap our first round picks. Give up the pick we stole from Atlanta. Give up next years first rounder which we have no idea where it will be or the impact of the player chosen.

Look at what Brady, Manning and Brees have meant to their teams. Look at the history of what great quarterbacks have done for their teams. From Otto Graham to John Unitas; from Joe Montana to Troy Aikman.

Great quarterbacks give you the best chance to win championships. Is that not the goal?

I know Andrew Luck is a prospect. I know he has done nothing yet at the NFL level. What I also know he is the unanimous choice as the first pick in the draft and the consensus best QB prospect since Peyton Manning.

I like Colt McCoy. I think he has a chance to be a decent quarterback in the right set of circumstances. However, he has physical limitations. He was a third round pick for reasons. He is being paid third round money. There are still questions about him on the field.

If you are in doubt about your QB and you are not financially handcuffed when you get a shot at a player like Andrew Luck you have to pull the trigger.

The Browns have had two upper level quarterbacks Brian Sipe and Bernie Kosar. They have had one Hall of Famer Otto Graham. What else has been accomplished? Yes, Frank Ryan and JB along with some other great players won the 64 championship.

A great quarterback in today's game gives the team a chance to win for 15+ years. The new rules don't let you breath on a quarterback. The new rules protect the receivers. It is a passing league.

Look at our division AFC North. Do you think it is possible to compete in our division against Ben, Flacco, and now Dalton and Green without scoring points?

Do you believe that Colt is going to win in December and January against great Quarterbacks? Look at the QB's of all 32 teams. Eleven teams do not have first round picks. They are:

NE - Brady
NO - Brees
Dallas - Romo

KC
Houston
Miami
Washington
Buffalo
Arizona
Seattle
Cleveland

Outside of Brees and Brady how do you like their chances?

We can sign Hillis. Steinbach will be back. We can sign a young veteran receiver (like Deshon Jackson or comparable) in free agency. We can draft a good RT prospect in the second round. We have an extra fourth rounder. We can still score good players in the draft.

We may never get another shot at a quarterback like Andrew Luck.

Really I don't want to hear about the other QB's in this draft. RG III in interesting but he is not in the same class as Luck when you look deep.

The only game in town for me is:

Colts versus Jags. The Ram vs SF game is as close to a lock as you can get.

GO COLTS!!!!!

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Great quarterbacks give you the best chance to win championships. Is that not the goal?

....<and then>

A great quarterback in today's game gives the team a chance to win for 15+ years. The new rules don't let you breath on a quarterback. The new rules protect the receivers. It is a passing league.

If all that's true, and it is, why would the Colts or any other team trade the rights to him? You don't trade away this kind of talent. With Manning being as old as he is and considering his neck problems, the Colts won't trade the first pick.

Everyone can say a talent like this only comes along once every 5-7-9 years and a team would be foolish to not do whatever it takes to get him.....so why can't we say that about the Colts or Rams too?

...the Rams might be a weird situation with Bradford and that contract. But if they think Luck looks better, you better get ready for Bradford riding the pine. The only think worse that paying Bradford all that money to stink it up in a few years is to pay it AND pass on Luck.

If we take Burfict with any of our 1sr 3 picks I will personally drive to Berea and smack everyone I can find upside the head.

Talk about overrated. He's got the physical tools, but as has been proven time after time after time after time ...... physical tools without brains and discipline = bagging groceries.

That's cool. I feel the same way if we even sniff RG3 now that we are on the subject of Grocery Baggers. I think the Lions would say different about Suh and Pittsburgh about Harrison and Baltimore about Ray Lewis..but you are definately entitled to your opinion.

That's your right ..... but I would damn near bet money that RG3 has a far, far superior NFL career to Burfict.

I think that he is one of the most overrated guys ever. He's got the physical tools, and seems to think that physical tools are all he needs.

He also strikes me as the guy that opposing teams will taunt when they want a free 15 yards on a personal foul.

Undisciplined will never fly on a Jauron defense. It won't work on most defenses. If we had a veteran defense, as someone else said, then maybe ..... but you would need someone willing to bust him upside the head and let him know what it takes to be great ....... because the kid strikes me as the kind who thinks that he's already a shoe-in for the Hall of Fame.

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That's your right ..... but I would damn near bet money that RG3 has a far, far superior NFL career to Burfict.

I'd bet that they're both forgotten in 10 years.

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That's your right ..... but I would damn near bet money that RG3 has a far, far superior NFL career to Burfict.

I think that he is one of the most overrated guys ever. He's got the physical tools, and seems to think that physical tools are all he needs.

He also strikes me as the guy that opposing teams will taunt when they want a free 15 yards on a personal foul.

Undisciplined will never fly on a Jauron defense. It won't work on most defenses. If we had a veteran defense, as someone else said, then maybe ..... but you would need someone willing to bust him upside the head and let him know what it takes to be great ....... because the kid strikes me as the kind who thinks that he's already a shoe-in for the Hall of Fame.

Not sure where you get that impression. I get the impression that the guy loves the game..was an academic standout coming in to college not sure where he finished, and has everything you would want out of a Football player. He is being mentored by Ray Lewis now who happens to be DQ's mentor. I think he would be fine and kept in Line. RG-3 on the other hand seems to be the Over rated one..slid up draft boards at an alarming rate and is living off the Hype. He knows it which is why he will enter the draft. If He thought he caould keep it up he would return and try to be the 1st pick next year. Guess he doesn't think he can do it. I beg to differ on their careers. RG-3 = Akili Smith

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Luck would be best suited to get drafted by an established Offense that can get him ready and then plug him in, rather than one that needs to rely on him early. Green Bay, N.O. etc.

We don't have the luxury of taking that flier right now, IMO.

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We don't have the right coaches, and we don't have the right locker room.

There does that help?

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I like the trading down - I'm on board for dropping to Washington's spot so they can take RG3. We pick up a 3rd or better then draft

1a) Trent Richardson, RB
1b) David DeCastro, OG
2) Dwight Jones, WR
3a) Andrew Datko, RT
3b) Andre Branch, DE

Though I'll bet DeCastro is gone before 1b. If so I take Mercilus at 1b and BPA of OG, CB, FS, OLB at 3b.

That would be an excellent mock....if Eric Mangini were still our coach. A RB and 2 OLine (and a possession type WR to boot) in our first 4 picks? LOL. Yeah if we're lining up and running the football 40 times a game sure. News flash. We're running the WCO now. We're going to PASS the ball 40 times a game. We need to find an upgrade at RT at some point (mid round or FA) but QB and WR are must must MUST gets.

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Great quarterbacks give you the best chance to win championships. Is that not the goal?

....<and then>

A great quarterback in today's game gives the team a chance to win for 15+ years. The new rules don't let you breath on a quarterback. The new rules protect the receivers. It is a passing league.

If all that's true, and it is, why would the Colts or any other team trade the rights to him? You don't trade away this kind of talent. With Manning being as old as he is and considering his neck problems, the Colts won't trade the first pick.

Everyone can say a talent like this only comes along once every 5-7-9 years and a team would be foolish to not do whatever it takes to get him.....so why can't we say that about the Colts or Rams too?

...the Rams might be a weird situation with Bradford and that contract. But if they think Luck looks better, you better get ready for Bradford riding the pine. The only think worse that paying Bradford all that money to stink it up in a few years is to pay it AND pass on Luck.

Completely agreed.

It's why I'm 100% on board offering our next 3 drafts to go up and get Luck (exaggerating but you know what I mean). It's also why I don't think they (St Louis OR Indy) will take that offer regardless of what we try to send.

We'll be stuck choosing between Robert Troy Smith Griffin and another year of Charlie Frye McCoy at QB.

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Luck would be best suited to get drafted by an established Offense that can get him ready and then plug him in, rather than one that needs to rely on him early. Green Bay, N.O. etc.

We don't have the luxury of taking that flier right now, IMO.

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We don't have the right coaches, and we don't have the right locker room.

There does that help?

Not really. That doesn't make much sense at all.

I mean, I see the argument you're trying to craft, but it's a very myopic one. You're trying to pigeonhole the argument into 'any player would be better going to a better team', which is very shortsighted.

Luck and Burfict are night and day.

Luck is a polished, NFL ready prospect with almost no red flags. Burfict is raw, undisciplined and comes with more red flags than a game officiated by a Triplette crew.

Burfict is a project. He has terrible instincts and discipline. He misses too many assignments and whiffs on tackles going for the big hit. For his size, speed and athleticism, he seems to have trouble shedding blocks at times. He's simply not ready to go right now. He's going to need a lot of time and coaching before he's ready to see the field as an integral part of a unit.

Andrew Luck is the exact opposite of that.

I'm not like everyone on here who thinks Burfict will bust and wants nothing to do with him, but we can't afford a red flagged project in the first round.

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If we take Burfict with any of our 1sr 3 picks I will personally drive to Berea and smack everyone I can find upside the head.

Talk about overrated. He's got the physical tools, but as has been proven time after time after time after time ...... physical tools without brains and discipline = bagging groceries.

Add me to the "do not take that punk" list. I've watched 3 of his games and keyed in on him during the viewing....he was out of position or coming in late with a cheap shot (or already on the bench because his coach had enough of the "walking PF").

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What's all this trade down talk?

We have a top 5 pick, probably top 4...if we don't come away with 1 of Luck, Claiborne or Blackmon, the top 3 value guys, I will consider it a fail...this draft isn't deep and it has a pretty weak top 20 outside of those 3 + Kalil...guys like Zach Brown and Coples were considered top 20, even top 10 selections and UNC got shredded by Missouri

I don't know - I have serious questions about everybody in this draft outside of Luck/Claiborne/Richardson. I'm not saying those are my top three (based on values of different positions, and potential) - but I have some pretty serious concerns about Kalil/Blackmon/Coples/RG3 - and outside of that there isn't really another elite talent.

I have zero doubt that if the Colts get the first pick it will be Luck.

Our hope lies with the Rams. They are handcuffed with Bradford's salary, plus they have not given up on Bradford. He was under a different OC and a new system plus has had ankle problems with a horrid line in front of him. They would love to trade the pick for a boatload of drat picks to upgrade around Bradford.

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1a) Trent Richardson, RB
1b) David DeCastro, OG
2) Dwight Jones, WR
3a) Andrew Datko, RT
3b) Andre Branch, DE

I would take Claiborne over Richardson if available but I wont complain if we draft Trent Richardson. Kid is amazing.

Love Dwight Jones, I think he is going to be a star and probably the 2nd best receiver out of this class.

Datko is probably looking at 6th or possibly undrafted. Label of being a slow healer is big time negative for OL. They had to go back in and repair the shoulder that never healed properly. good thing we have 2 6ths lol, kid has talent and I thought he was a late first rounder coming in.

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Not really. That doesn't make much sense at all.

I mean, I see the argument you're trying to craft, but it's a very myopic one. You're trying to pigeonhole the argument into 'any player would be better going to a better team', which is very shortsighted.

Luck and Burfict are night and day.

Luck is a polished, NFL ready prospect with almost no red flags. Burfict is raw, undisciplined and comes with more red flags than a game officiated by a Triplette crew.

Burfict is a project. He has terrible instincts and discipline. He misses too many assignments and whiffs on tackles going for the big hit. For his size, speed and athleticism, he seems to have trouble shedding blocks at times. He's simply not ready to go right now. He's going to need a lot of time and coaching before he's ready to see the field as an integral part of a unit.

Andrew Luck is the exact opposite of that.

I'm not like everyone on here who thinks Burfict will bust and wants nothing to do with him, but we can't afford a red flagged project in the first round.

Look Bud..I know Luck is the only QB in the topo of trhis class worth a darn..you don't need to sell me on that. You missed the point. That ship has sailed. But You making up your own scouting report to fit your Argument is tacky..The guy has great instincts, is a great athlete and Football player..His red flags about bringing it everygame and sometimes losing his cool are valid..after that you make Pinnochio proud. He is not a Project..He has flags and in spite of those flags will still go in the first..Which is not a place to select Projects..Go read a scouting report or something but quit making stuff up. I say we don't have the personell or Coaching or playcalling to draft Luck anymore than you think that for any so named player.

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If we take Burfict with any of our 1sr 3 picks I will personally drive to Berea and smack everyone I can find upside the head.

Talk about overrated. He's got the physical tools, but as has been proven time after time after time after time ...... physical tools without brains and discipline = bagging groceries.

Add me to the "do not take that punk" list. I've watched 3 of his games and keyed in on him during the viewing....he was out of position or coming in late with a cheap shot (or already on the bench because his coach had enough of the "walking PF").

What games did you watch?

Some random Pac-X games at night while sitting around the house. It was around the game he laid a cheap shot on a QB and then helped him up after an interception. That raised my awareness to his name.....then whenever they were on TV, I'd turn it on to watch him.

I was never impressed. And it seemed like he was always getting PF flags thrown at him (or out of position).

Maybe he's really good but immature and stupid. But from what I've seen, nothing says "bigtime NFL LBer to me" other than his unique name.

I haven't watched ANY of his games. I did see a highlight clip though. And I must say, after watching his "highlights", I remember thinking "geez, if those were highlights, I wonder what he's like on most plays."

The dude was easily blocked in his HIGHLIGHTs. Over runs, misses tackles - and yes, this was on a HIGHLIGHT film of him. It was posted on here a while back - month or so? Don't remember for sure.

He had a few blow up hits, but trust me, those didn't make up for his over pursuits, his under pursuits, his getting easily blocked by one person or his missed tackles.

He's a high motor guy. But his technique, I guess, leaves a lot to be desired.

Now, that is based on ONE highlight film I saw of him. Nothing more, nothing less. I am not an nfl scout. (neither is anyone else on here, but that doesn't stop some people from acting like it.........) I don't know what the linebacker draft looks like this year, but if he's a first round pick, I'd venture to say the linebacker draft is somewhat weak. That, or he'll get drafted by a team that has about every position covered on d, and they're looking for a diamond in the rough and can afford to take a huge chance on him.

JMO

Good point Arch.....he may be something special, but it's probably a project pick. I would be shocked if someone took him in the first or second round. I don't think you draft incomplete players that need work in the top two rounds.....you expect immediate starters in week 1.

RGIII to Wright for TD....

You guys are certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect that just like you should be able to accept my opinion that RG3 is the next Akili Smith. But to call the guy a project is ridiculous. He will be a first round pick and think he will be selected in the teens when it is all said and done and as of now is a lower first round pick. Projects don't get picked in the first round..He needs to play with more control but you really are reaching if you question his ability..He makes mistakes..and will but his ceiling and what he could bring to a team is worth more more than what you are considering.

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Here is my mock draft for our first three picks:

1. Andrew Luck

Which are you? An Indy Colts or St. Louis Rams fan?

If the Rams draft Luck they have a death wish.

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If the Rams draft Luck they have a death wish.

I still think they are more likely to take him than Indy. Somebody please explain this "they have too much money invested in Bradford" because everybody accepts it, and their seems to be nothing behind it.

It's not the money they have already spent on Bradford. It's the cap hit they would take if they got rid of him. And I don't think it would go over well with either Luck or Bradford to have two QB's of the future.

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It's not the money they have already spent on Bradford. It's the cap hit they would take if they got rid of him. And I don't think it would go over well with either Luck or Bradford to have two QB's of the future.

Right - except that they have more cap room than any other team in the NFL ($35 Million) - in fact, they are kind of in a bind because they can't be more than around $15 million under the cap starting next year (due to the new CBA).

So they really need to purposefully make some move which kills their cap room (for a year), rather than try to save room.

It all depends on what the new regime in STL thinks of Bradford when they come in and do their evaluations.

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It all depends on what the new regime in STL thinks of Bradford when they come in and do their evaluations.

I agree with that. But whoever the Rams hire probably thought Bradford should have been the #1 pick a couple of years ago.

Last year Bradford had a stellar [rookie] year for a crap team. This year he was injured for much of the year. He is still the same guy that was drafted #1 overall two years ago.

I gotta chime in and say that any chatter coming from any source which even hints that bradford could be dumped is talking just to talk. There is no way in hell the rams would ever seriously consider dumping a guy that was everything they could have hoped for as a rookie, when he followed that up with an injury plagued season behind a line that couldn't block and no receivers worth mentioning.

That one is the stone-cold lock of the century...of the week.

Danny Amendola really helped Bradford out a ton last year. He isnt a big name WR but he caught alot of passes from Bradford. He was hurt and missed the season...could be a factor in Bradfords dropoff this year......either way i dont see them throwing in the towel on a "rookie of the year qb". If they have the pick they will take the best offer on the table. And I wouldnt be against making the deal, as long as we dont have to sell the farm to get him, and are active in FA to get him some legit weapons. Im talking Garcon, and/or DeSean Jackson. We are going to be in a position to spend, spend, spend this off season. So Heckert needs to get out there and work his magic if that is the route we go with in the draft.

Amendola and Clayton were both hurt early. (both in the 1st 2 or 3 games)

They drafted Salas, and he only played 6 games before he went on IR. (and he had 27 catches in 6 games)

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I gotta chime in and say that any chatter coming from any source which even hints that bradford could be dumped is talking just to talk. There is no way in hell the rams would ever seriously consider dumping a guy that was everything they could have hoped for as a rookie, when he followed that up with an injury plagued season behind a line that couldn't block and no receivers worth mentioning.

That one is the stone-cold lock of the century...of the week.

I should add that I think Bradford is a good QB - I would not dump him, and I'd certainly take the draft picks instead.

Right, so I look for him to have a bounce back year next season. And what better way to help that along by getting him some more weapons. Then again the same could be said about Colt. But then again Bradford vs. McCoy isnt even a thought on who the better QB is.

Point is I dont think either the Colts or the Rams will take Luck......Peyton Manning is the Colts! Just like Chas Michael Michaels is figure skating! lol

I think the backlash of cutting Manning or trading him would be too much for them to even think about doing it. And they already have a bunch of guys they need to resign so they can make their push for another ring before Manning hangs up the cleats to take over the headset as a head coach somewhere.

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I gotta chime in and say that any chatter coming from any source which even hints that bradford could be dumped is talking just to talk. There is no way in hell the rams would ever seriously consider dumping a guy that was everything they could have hoped for as a rookie, when he followed that up with an injury plagued season behind a line that couldn't block and no receivers worth mentioning.

That one is the stone-cold lock of the century...of the week.

This isn't about Colt, it's about Bradford.

There's a difference between a guy having (and losing) decent receivers, and a guy just not getting the job done.

It hasn't mattered what receivers McCoy has. Bradford started out with 2nd string guys and then lost them.

I think that there is no way the Colts pass on Luck if they have the chance to get him.

If Manning is hurt, (and it doesn't appear that he will return) then I think that the Colts draft Luck, cut Manning, and never look back.

Manning has been the Colts .... but if the team does not feel that he will be able to come all the way back, then they grab Luck if they have the chance.

Hell, the Colts went from Collins to Painter to Orlovsky. Orlovsky has played just well enough for them to win 2 of his 4 starts.

I know what you are saying, and was saying the same thing. Bradford is a good QB and worth being built around.....McCoy has proved that he is nothing more than a spot duty backup.

Bradford took a guy like Amendola and made him a legit WR....that guy wouldnt even get a chance to catch a ball here with McCoy behind center.

Manning and Bradford are both safe on their teams....and I dont think either team will take Luck. The Browns have to realize that QB is a need, and if you have the chance to land a franchise QB you do it....it just so happens to be that there are two in this convo....Luck or RG3 and I am happy! Id be more than ok sitting back and watching what falls to us then to sell the farm just for one player

Fisher takes over the first thing he is going to do is trade down and build their trenches.

I think it's possible that the Colts take Luck (I don't think they should, but that's different) - but I think it's the worst possible situation for Luck:

1.) The team is not that talented, as shown by their record after they lose possibly the best QB in NFL history.

2.) They are old --- we're not even talking about a traditional rebuilding team (young talent that will take a few years to grow together and become competitive) - this team is stuck in win now move with a roster that would only win 5-6 games with an average QB.

3.) He's following in the footsteps of Manning - and as much as I like Luck (clearly the top QB in the last 7 years), he will NOT be better than Manning.

Finally some Cap Hit Numbers on Bradford...

Trading Bradford to draft quarterback makes no sense for Rams

By Howard Balzer | NFLDraftScout.com

ST. LOUIS -- Please, stop the madness now. Let's not spend the next four months debating whether the St. Louis Rams should select a quarterback with their high pick in the 2012 draft and trade Sam Bradford.

These rumblings were being heard over the past several weeks, but gained traction when Monday Night Football analyst Jon Gruden said recently if a new coach was hired by the Rams they would have to give serious consideration to finding a better quarterback than Bradford. Gruden, of course, specifically mentioned Stanford's Andrew Luck and Robert Griffin III of Baylor.

It's hard to tell whether Gruden really believed what he was saying or if he was tweaking fellow analyst Ron Jaworski, who is high on Bradford. Following Gruden's comment, Jaworski lauded Bradford again, and Gruden had that sly, Chucky grin on his face.

Since Gruden's comment, the "trade Bradford" bandwagon has grown. The salary cap ramifications are one major impediment to a deal, but the idea makes no sense on a basic talent evaluation level.

While Luck, and even Griffin, are the flavors of the month, if all three were in the draft at the same time, Bradford could very well be rated as the best of the bunch. At the least, it would be a good debate.

So, believing that the evaluation would be very close, why trade a quarterback who already has 26 games under his belt, has shown his ability and in whom you have already invested $30 million?

As for the salary cap, a Bradford trade on or before June 1 would mean a $14.4 million dead-money cap charge for the Rams. If he was traded after June 1, the hit would be $3.6 million in 2012 and $10.8 million in 2013.

On the roster in 2012, Bradford counts $15.595 million against the cap and his base salary is $12 million guaranteed. The final three years of his contract are worth a total of $36 million with $8 million of his $9 million 2013 salary guaranteed.

While the $14.4 million hit isn't that much different than his cap charge on the roster, that would still be dead money for a player no longer on the team.

It also can be argued the Rams would have less leverage trying to trade Bradford because of those high salaries.

However, they would likely have significantly more leverage as the draft approaches to make a deal as teams start falling in love with the incoming class and the lower salaries they will command compared to Bradford.

The new, hard rookie pool resulted in quarterback Cam Newton, this year's first overall pick, receiving a four-year contract worth a shade over $22 million. Newton's signing bonus was $14.5 million and his base salaries are $375,000; $1.376 million; $2.377 million and $3.378 million. There is an option for the fifth year that has to be exercised after the end of the third year, but most high picks that prove worthy will likely sign contract extensions before they ever get to that fifth year.

With the overall salary cap in 2012 expected to be very close to the 2011 total of $120.375 million, the rookie contracts will also be very similar to 2011.

Assuming Griffin enters the draft, the Rams should be in an excellent spot to build around Bradford with extra choices, even if they wind up with the second pick in the first round.

If the Rams lose to the 49ers on Sunday, they can't pick any lower than second. The scenarios:

• Rams lose, Colts lose to Jacksonville: Colts pick first, Rams second.

• Rams lose, Colts win: Rams pick first, Colts second.

If the Rams win, it doesn't matter what the Colts do. Win or lose, Indianapolis would pick first. However, the Rams would pick third if they win and the Vikings lose to the Bears, which would give Minnesota the second selection.

This assumes the Rams don't make up a five-game differential in strength-of-schedule percentage with the Vikings, which is unlikely.

If the Rams pick second, either the Colts will select Luck or trade the pick to a team that wants him. The Rams would still be in position to swing a deal with a team that wants Griffin, if he is rated that high and there are no other highly-rated quarterbacks. Currently, Cleveland, Jacksonville and Tampa Bay have four wins, while Miami and Washington have five. It's conceivable the Browns, Dolphins and Redskins would be in the market for a quarterback.

Obviously, the best result would be for the Rams to have the first pick. That could lead to a double trade down. Trade with Indianapolis, if they want Luck, and do the best deal you can for moving down just one spot. Then, deal the second pick in what would hopefully be a seller's market to multiple teams that desire Griffin.

That should provide a collection of picks this year and in future years that will fill several of the holes on the roster and improve the offense around Bradford. Whatever the package, it's probable that it would be more than the Rams would acquire for Bradford.

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On the roster in 2012, Bradford counts $15.595 million against the cap and his base salary is $12 million guaranteed.

That $12 million would have to be paid by the team that trades for him.... so, someone would have to look at him and conclude that he is worth $12 million a year.

That makes you wonder - if some team would honestly think that of this guy, then he must be good enough to warrant it... so why the hell would he be on the trading block anyway?

As for Gruden.... dude's an idiot. Never liked him and he is about the LAST person I'd ever trust on QB evaluations.

Gruden has liked just about every QB that has traveled to spend time with him prior to the draft.

Actually, I can't think of any that he hasn't liked.

I know, he's like a toddler with someone dangling keys in front of him.

Yeah. I swear that I think I heard him say "Oooh ....... Shiny ....." once in response to a question about a QB.

Just listen to the guy call a MNF game. He loves just about every player, let alone QB, that just made a play.

"I like [insert name here]."

Here's some very early draft thinking:

1. Im fine one way or the other as far as the Jags vs Colts game goes: Jacksonville wins we likely pick #3. Colts win then St. Louis gets the #1 pick and are highly likely to trade it giving us a shot at Luck.

2. I'd give up a lot to get Luck, but not too much. Both this years firsts and next years with some possible later rounds would be my offer. But I have a feeling a team like Washington is going to sell the farm (3-5 first rounders, multiple 2nd and 3rds as well) to grab him. Think the San Diego- Giants trade in 2004. For Eli Manning the Giants traded Phillip Rivers (#4 overall), 2005 1st round pick, their high 2nd rounder, and a 5th. Eli was hyped but nowhere near as much as Luck. San Diego used that draft to turn themselves into a constant contender and I still believe had they kept Marty, resigned Brees as he wanted, and traded Rivers they'd have won a superbowl by now. St. Louis will try to do the same.

3. As far as our first pick goes, for me its either grab Luck, or trade down. If we can't get Luck I say get Colt some more weapons this year and see how he does. If RG3 is there when we pick I'm fielding calls from Miami, Washington, whoever and offerng the pick to them for some good value (1st or 2nd rounders preferably) and then taking BPA somewhere in the 6-10 range (Richardson, Blackmon, Floyd, Couples) and then with the 1b pick or 2nd rounder we need to grab a RT if we can't get one in FA. Let Pinkston and Luavo fight it out for RG. I doubt he makes it that far but I'd love to get K.Wright at 1b.

if we can't grab luck then i'd wanna trade down but ONLY if it buys us 2 picks within the top 50 *this year* at least. Then it would be 3 picks within the top 50 including a 1st at least... not sure if there are any teams that have a 1st and early 2nd to accomplish that though

If it's top 50 then it would essentially be any team in the top 18. Then we could take their first (roughly number 18) and their second (18th of 2nd round, aka 32+18 = 50) ... it would definitely be doable...

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If it's top 50 then it would essentially be any team in the top 18. Then we could take their first (roughly number 18) and their second (18th of 2nd round, aka 32+18 = 50) ... it would definitely be doable...

R u outta your flippen mind???

Go down to 18 for a lousy 50 pick in round 2???

This would be for RGIII and ONLY him...And it's costing a 2013 FIRST ROUNDER too...And then some...

Did I once suggest that I wanted to do it....?

I simply was responding that trading down with anyone before #19 should net us 2 picks in the top 50....

Never advocated it ...

Another possibility of a trade partner could be Denver if Tebow doesn't get it done and Elway thinks RG3 can (and they pick at 18) that might be too far of a drop unless somehow we get their #1 next year as part of the deal....

Now, if RG3 is on the board this year when our pick is up...and Miami or Washington want to swap firsts this year...and give us their 2nd and 3rd this year, I would be up for that (draft Richardson in the 10-12 range)...

The only way I would drop that far is to trade for both of Cincinnati's first round picks this year. According to the NFL Draft Point Value Chart, if we get the 4th or 5th pick overall...it would be fair to trade to Cincinnati for their 2 first rounders this year and maybe a 2nd this year or next...

Thoughts??

I think that we will regret it if we pass on RG3.

Denver has already stated that they are committed to Tebow next season.

Report: Tebow Broncos starter in 2012 regardless - CBSSports.com
http://eye-on-football.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22475988/34095382

Denver and Kansas City square off on Sunday with plenty at stake: the Broncos want to win the AFC West, and the Chiefs want to give Kyle Orton redemption for being benched and released by Denver earlier this year. Reportedly not at stake, though? Tim Tebow's job as a starter.

That's according to NFL.com's Jeff Darlington, who reports that Tebow is locked as the starter for Denver in 2012, regardless of whether or not the Broncos make the playoffs.

"Sources have indicated, regardless of the outcome Sunday, the Broncos plan to move forward with the mindset that Tebow will remain the team's starter in 2012," Darlington wrote Friday.

Darlington's also got a juicy nugget about the relationship between Orton and Tebow. The Broncos quarterbacks have a fine system that keeps each other accountable (this is common among NFL position players) and the group began fining Tebow when fans bought billboards demanding that Orton be benched and Tebow get starts.

Though this ultimately happened, it pretty clearly created a rift and explains why the Broncos let Orton go. (Darlington also reports that allowing Tebow to have "better control of the locker room" was a deciding factor in Orton's release.) But if letting Orton go ultimately costs the Broncos a shot at the playoffs, it's simply an indefensible decision.

A totally defensible one is keeping Tebow ingrained as the starter. There are many reasons for this. He's under contract in 2012. He won games. He could progress as a passer. There won't be a franchise quarterback available when the Broncos draft next April. Using picks to trade up grab a quarterback ignores other needs. The Broncos are still technically "rebuilding," and drafting defensive players would serve them better. Tim Tebow is an absolute cash cow for the team. Giving him a vote of confidence now only decreases the scrutiny on the situation leading into the final parts of this season.

The list could go on for a while. Which is why it makes a lot of sense for the Broncos to have already arrived at the decision that Tim Tebow's their starter in 2012. Even if their 2011 starter manages to knock them out of the playoff hunt.

I agree Ytown.....Heckert has come out and said he is going to be looking for playmakers.....RG3 is about as much of a playmaker as there is in this draft.

1a. RG3
1b. Michael Floyd
2. Chase Minnifield
3. LaMichael James

4 picks, 4 play makers....then go after DeSean Jackson in FA and Boom instant O!

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I agree Ytown.....Heckert has come out and said he is going to be looking for playmakers.....RG3 is about as much of a playmaker as there is in this draft.

1a. RG3
1b. Michael Floyd
2. Chase Minnifield
3. LaMichael James

4 picks, 4 play makers....then go after DeSean Jackson in FA and Boom instant O!

Thanks YTown...Didn't see that about Denver

I think Floyd will be off the board by 1B and really wasn't too impressed with how he did last night. Struggled against press coverage (granted, there was help over the top) and I just read somewhere seems to be injury prone...

I would (100%) be all for taking Wright there (if we don't take Blackmon with 1A which I am beginning to hope H&H lean more towards Claiborne). He caught everything thrown to him and got behind corners playing 10 yards off of him and safeties playing 20 yards off the line of scrimmage last night...He is Mike Wallace clone minus about an inch and he will run sub 4.45 at the combine...That is the kind of speed and hands we need to open up the field on our offense!

If we do go RG3 and Wright...has that ever been done in a draft...taking a QB and the #1 WR in the same draft from the same school???????

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1a. RG3
1b. Michael Floyd
2. Chase Minnifield
3. LaMichael James

4 picks, 4 play makers....then go after DeSean Jackson in FA and Boom instant O!

With all due respect, but this would be a boom/bust draft with any pick you listed....

Floyd would be off my board for multiple reasons (character being on top, but also inconsistency and injuries), Minnifield is a little overrated, probably because of name...I like him but there will be better CBs on the board in the top of the 2nd....James is a change of pace RB, not useable inside in the NFL, goes down easily....I like him, but I'm sure there are better players on the board in the top of the 3rd

Here's a "safe" draft with only DE, WR, CB...probably mix in a risky QB somewhere but 1 boom or bust, esp. at QB, would be acceptable

1a WR Blackmon/ CB Claiborne
1b CB Dennard/DE Ingram
2a WR Wright/DE Curry/CB Gilmore
3 WR D.Jones/DE Branch/CB Judie

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I agree Ytown.....Heckert has come out and said he is going to be looking for playmakers.....RG3 is about as much of a playmaker as there is in this draft.

1a. RG3
1b. Michael Floyd
2. Chase Minnifield
3. LaMichael James

4 picks, 4 play makers....then go after DeSean Jackson in FA and Boom instant O!

Drools.

Offense.

I'm not sure if RG3 is a good fit for us but damn...talk about rebuilding the O overnight!

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I agree Ytown.....Heckert has come out and said he is going to be looking for playmakers.....RG3 is about as much of a playmaker as there is in this draft.

1a. RG3
1b. Michael Floyd
2. Chase Minnifield
3. LaMichael James

4 picks, 4 play makers....then go after DeSean Jackson in FA and Boom instant O!

Yuk yuk yuk. I pray Heckert does not do this!

RG3 is a miss, Floyd will not be able to get seperation and is essentially everything we have had here. Lamichael James..No Thanks I don't want 150 pound RB.. It's like the Mighty Mights Team.

I'd rather avoid risks, especially in Round 1. I the RG3 story, but there's big whiff potential there. I'd rather (barring a reasonable deal for Luck), go Kalil or Claiborn first. They cannot miss and would be instant quality starters. 1B maybe Mercilus or Kendall Wright, again instant starter. I think it is a more sure thing to take a QB like Jones or Tannehill in Round 2 and give Shurmur and the Walrus a year or so to develop him. That guy is more likely to be a sure thing in 2013 than boom or bust RG3. I also don't like LaMichael James because of his size. He can't be a bell cow, and we have plenty of those complementary RBs.

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I'd rather avoid risks, especially in Round 1. I the RG3 story, but there's big whiff potential there. I'd rather (barring a reasonable deal for Luck), go Kalil or Claiborn first. They cannot miss and would be instant quality starters. 1B maybe Mercilus or Kendall Wright, again instant starter. I think it is a more sure thing to take a QB like Jones or Tannehill in Round 2 and give Shurmur and the Walrus a year or so to develop him. That guy is more likely to be a sure thing in 2013 than boom or bust RG3. I also don't like LaMichael James because of his size. He can't be a bell cow, and we have plenty of those complementary RBs.

I can go with that..I would rather have Cousins but that is just preference. Claiborn isn't as good as #1 CB's in years past such as Haden and Peterson etc but he is the best in this class. I think most years he would go down in the teens or be 2nd or 3rd best CB. The WR's are weak up top this year. Blackmon is productive and consistent. I just worry if it will translate. Kendall Wright adds a dimension that we lack. A burner that gets separation and makes plays. He would be our #1 with Little being a #2 and Norwood being a slot. MoMass won't be able to make another roster in this league. The Wiff Potential On RG3 is huge. Not a chance I would sniff him but would like to take advantage of a desperate team. He is going to Capitalize on his fast rise to the top of the draft this year because chances are he knows going back that he could fizzle out. If he knew he could go back to school ala Luck and come out and be the #1 pick in the draft, why wouldn't he? Wouldn't that be a goal of yours?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/12/31/shurmur-on-rg3-good-players-fit-in-every-offense/

The Browns are headed for a top-five pick in the draft, which already has Browns fans salivating over the possibility of drafting Baylor quarterback Robert Griffin III.

Griffin hasn’t declared for the draft yet, but he’s expected to in the coming weeks.

Browns coach Pat Shurmur, like Mike Shanahan, has already done some scouting.

“I’ve watched [Griffin],” Shurmur said this week via the Akron Beacon-Journal. “[He’s a] tremendous talent, good player.”

Asked if Griffin could fit into a West Coast offense, Shurmur was definitive.

“Good players fit in every offense,” he said.

The Browns drafted Baylor’s teammate Phil Taylor in the first round this year. Taylor says Griffin has more quarterbacking skills than people realize.

“He’s the type of athlete that could fit into any system,” Taylor said. “He can run, he can pass. He can take snaps under the center, shotgun; whatever you need, he can do. . . . They said the same thing about Cam — ‘Is he gonna adapt to the system?’ And he’s doing great right now with Carolina.”

Newton and Griffin have similarities, but they are still different style players. That won’t stop the inevitable and endless comparisons in the months to come.

Claiborn isn't as good as #1 CB's in years past such as Haden and Peterson etc but he is the best in this class. I think most years he would go down in the teens or be 2nd or 3rd best CB.

He has better cover skills than both Haden and Peterson and honestly to say otherwise is just bull. They were better return men but it is pure ignorance to say they have better cover skills.

Just as an FYI the Browns scouts have been to at least 2 Texas A&M games.

Maybe they like Tannehill?

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Claiborn isn't as good as #1 CB's in years past such as Haden and Peterson etc but he is the best in this class. I think most years he would go down in the teens or be 2nd or 3rd best CB.

He has better cover skills than both Haden and Peterson and honestly to say otherwise is just bull. They were better return men but it is pure ignorance to say they have better cover skills.

I wholeheartedly disagree with that.. Ur just saying stuff now.

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Claiborn isn't as good as #1 CB's in years past such as Haden and Peterson etc but he is the best in this class. I think most years he would go down in the teens or be 2nd or 3rd best CB.

He has better cover skills than both Haden and Peterson and honestly to say otherwise is just bull. They were better return men but it is pure ignorance to say they have better cover skills.

I wholeheartedly disagree with that.. Ur just saying stuff now.

You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. It's how I feel. I like him so don't get me wrong, but if you think he will be better than Peterson or Haden that is How you feel and good for you.

Sorry Turk, I noticed it was Mourg you were calling out who called me ignorant to think that Haden and Peterson were better talents coming out.

no.. i think Claiborne is NOT a better cover corner than Haden or Peterson.. I think he is good.. but not top 5 good..

IN that case, you dont know what you're talking about either lol. Peterson and Haden were bigger and more physical but Claiborne has better feet, better hips and better ball skills. It is not even close.

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no.. i think Claiborne is NOT a better cover corner than Haden or Peterson.. I think he is good.. but not top 5 good..

IN that case, you dont know what you're talking about either lol. Peterson and Haden were bigger and more physical but Claiborne has better feet, better hips and better ball skills. It is not even close.

better ball skills than Peterson? cmon man.. I'll leave a question mark on Haden w/ that.. but Peterson??

Peterson has that great vertical and it allows him to make phenomenal plays on the ball. He can get to balls few can. Claiborne reacts quicker to the ball in flight. Both have excellent hands. I shouldnt have said better ball skills because both can make the opposition pay for targeting them but Caliborne is more dangerous in finding the ball and making the pick.

My turn

I will assume that we cannot move up to get Luck for a reasonable price (Whatever anyone considers reasonable).

I am not high on RGIII. Outside of Luck I like the Qb's in next year's draft (Bray, Wilson, Barkley) much better. So I trade out and get at least another 1st next year. Now don't crucify me for this but I wouldn't mind trading down twice. After Luck I just don't see the value. Is Claiborne that much better that Kirkpatrick or Dennard? Not knowing what we would get in return I won't include extra picks but let's just assume it is fair value and includes at least a 1st rounder next year and end up in the teens.

1a - Lamar Miller Rb Miami - I know many of you are against 1st round rb's but I think you can all see how our defense is different with a running game now that Hillis is healthy and playing better. And I don't think Hillis re-signs with us. While not the pure runner that Richardson is he is a good pass catcher and adds some explosion to our backfield (and offense in general). Any time he touches the ball he is a threat to take it all the way. Whether that is from a handoff or pass in the flat. I think he will compare favorably to LeSean McCoy and will fit into this offense perfectly.

1b DE - Whitney Marcellis Illinois or Melvin Ingram South Carolina - I think a DE paired with Sheard will give a a formidable Dline. Either of these guys can become a pass rushing force at RDE which will dramatically improve our

2a - Greg Fuller WR Texas A&M - Ugh not another 2nd round WR. Gives me creeps even suggesting it. While not a pure burner he can be a deep threat because he is fast enough and he has the ability to go up over the defender and get the ball. I could be talked into Adams or Adcock to man RT or Kendall Wright if he is still here.

3 - RT - I doubt Adcock falls this far but there should be some good RT's available that can be plugged into our starting lineup and solidify the position for years. I like Ricky Wagner, 6-5, 325, Wisconsin, Bobbie Massie, 6-6, 315, Mississippi or Matt Reynolds, 6-5, 330, BYU here.

4a - Jarius Wright Wr Arkansas - We get our speed burner here.

4b - Danny Trevethan OLB Kentucky - You guys sold me on him and we need and outside LB.

After that too speculative. So best talent available.

I think we upgrade our offense with some real playmakers at Rb and Wr. We solidify our oline. I think the offense is set except Qb which we get next year. Yes I really want to upgrade the Qb position this year but I don't want to grab a Qb that I don't have faith in just because we need a Qb. Plus this give our young Wr corp a chance to get experience and learn the NFL and the offense. And we get a year for the oline to gel. A lot of people talk about how SF spent 2 1st rounders on oline in 2010 but nobody seems to remember how poor their oline was last season.

On defense we solidify our dline and upgrade OLB. We don't upgrade at safety like we need to but I just don't see a FS in this draft that can do it. We might need a MLB if we don't get D'Qwell resigned. Do we franchise him if we need to? We have no depth at LB.

If we drafted Fuller in the 2nd round I'd be PISSED!!!! If he gets drafted high its only b/c of his size.. He doesn't have good speed, and has mental lapses catching passes.

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1a. RG3
1b. Michael Floyd
2. Chase Minnifield
3. LaMichael James

4 picks, 4 play makers....then go after DeSean Jackson in FA and Boom instant O!

With all due respect, but this would be a boom/bust draft with any pick you listed....

Floyd would be off my board for multiple reasons (character being on top, but also inconsistency and injuries), Minnifield is a little overrated, probably because of name...I like him but there will be better CBs on the board in the top of the 2nd....James is a change of pace RB, not useable inside in the NFL, goes down easily....I like him, but I'm sure there are better players on the board in the top of the 3rd

Here's a "safe" draft with only DE, WR, CB...probably mix in a risky QB somewhere but 1 boom or bust, esp. at QB, would be acceptable

1a WR Blackmon/ CB Claiborne
1b CB Dennard/DE Ingram
2a WR Wright/DE Curry/CB Gilmore
3 WR D.Jones/DE Branch/CB Judie

I didnt want to Draft LaMichael James for an everydown back, I want us to resign Hillis and use James to spell him.....3rd round would be good value for someone with his skill set IMO

I wouldn't draft James as an everydown back either, but I wouldn't be surprised if he develops into an everydown back.

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I'd rather avoid risks, especially in Round 1. I the RG3 story, but there's big whiff potential there. I'd rather (barring a reasonable deal for Luck), go Kalil or Claiborn first. They cannot miss and would be instant quality starters. 1B maybe Mercilus or Kendall Wright, again instant starter. I think it is a more sure thing to take a QB like Jones or Tannehill in Round 2 and give Shurmur and the Walrus a year or so to develop him. That guy is more likely to be a sure thing in 2013 than boom or bust RG3. I also don't like LaMichael James because of his size. He can't be a bell cow, and we have plenty of those complementary RBs.

2011 Game Log Rushing Receiving
DATE OPP RESULT ATT YDS AVG LNG TD REC YDS AVG LNG TD
9/3 @LSU L 40-27 18 54 3.0 13 1 6 61 10.2 16 0
9/10 Nevada W 69-20 12 67 5.6 22 1 2 56 28.0 44 1
9/17 Missouri State W 56-7 12 204 17.0 90 3 1 27 27.0 27 0
9/24 @ Arizona W 56-31 23 288 12.5 47 2 2 15 7.5 8 0
10/6 California W 43-15 30 239 8.0 53 1 0 0 0.0 0 0
10/15 Arizona State W 41-27 Did not play or did not accumulate any stats.
10/22 @Colorado W 45-2 Did not play or did not accumulate any stats.
10/29 Washington State W 43-28 13 53 4.1 16 0 0 0 0.0 0 0
11/5 @Washington W 34-17 25 156 6.2 22 1 1 6 6.0 6 0
11/12 @Stanford W 53-30 20 146 7.3 58 3 1 10 10.0 10 0
11/19 USC L 38-35 20 78 3.9 9 1 1 5 5.0 5 0
11/26 Oregon State W 49-21 24 142 5.9 39 1 1 6 6.0 6 0
12/2 UCLA W 49-31 25 219 8.8 43 3 2 24 12.0 14 0

Looks like he can handle the load to me, but I want to use him as a change of pace back for when Hillis needs a break.

I haven't seen a lot of Fuller but the plays I saw where the ball was thrown his way he went up and got it over the defenders. He didn't seem slow. But I would defer to others who have seen more of him. Substitute another WR Sanu or perhaps take Adams or Adcock here, then take Jarius Wright in the 3rd. When I finished that post I started thinking that Wright might not make it to the 4th round and I would really like to make sure we get him.

I like this guy too.. He's a burner and should be there in the 4th round..

T.Y. Hilton - Florida International

1) i. Robert Griffin III – QB – Baylor
ii. Vontaze Burfict – LB – Arizona St.
2) Vinny Curry –DE - Marshall
3) Ricky Wagner – OT - Wisconsin
4) i. Cliff Harris – CB - Oregon
ii. T.Y. Hilton – WR – Florida International
5) Bernard Pierce –HB - Temple

Here we go...

Let's go Indy

Let's go Minny

Let's go Frisco

ESPN reporting that RG3 will enter the draft.

Surprise , surprise ! The plot thickens ...

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ESPN reporting that RG3 will enter the draft.

Good...Good...Good...

Either for us or a Pounding of Snyder...

Let's go every team that helps us get the highest draft pick we can!

I'll worry about the draft tommorow, today I want to see the Steelers take a beating.

I am hoping that we physically beat them half to death ....... but they win on an absolutely horrible call that hands them the win.

I still want the best draft pick possible because I want to beat them for years to come, not just today in a game that doesn't matter at all to us.

Even if i start out thinking draft pick, after that first kickoff, blood gets a flowing and all I am thinking about is beating Pittsburgh. Can't help it.

Yeah ... I will during the game too.

Afterwards, I'll return to reality .... and will still want the best opportunity to add players that will let us beat Baltimore and Pittsburgh for years to come.

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ESPN reporting that RG3 will enter the draft.

Good...Good...Good...

Either for us or a Pounding of Snyder...

If your Stl, and you get the #1...

You could theoretically Trade with Indy and move down to 2...

And then trade with someone else who wants RG3 and move down only a couple more spots...

They could kill it this draft...

The Browns should trade down with the Seahawks. This team has too many holes to be filled. The Browns have very little impact on the field from Savage and Mangini's drafts...Mack,Thomas,Rubin and Jackson..thats it.
None of those are what I would consider difference makers.
This upcoming draft will probally be the most important since the 99 return

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I like this guy too.. He's a burner and should be there in the 4th round..

T.Y. Hilton - Florida International
1) i. Robert Griffin III – QB – Baylor
ii. Vontaze Burfict – LB – Arizona St.
2) Vinny Curry –DE - Marshall
3) Ricky Wagner – OT - Wisconsin
4) i. Cliff Harris – CB - Oregon
ii. T.Y. Hilton – WR – Florida International
5) Bernard Pierce –HB - Temple

That guy has some sick speed. He doesn't look big but he sure plays it. I wonder what his YAC avg. is? I seen some pretty bad angles by the DB's but half the time it didn't matter. The guy was a yard away from making the tackle before he caught the ball and he caught it and flat out put the burners on. Looks like a real playmaker. Nice catch Turk! I like your draft for the most part except for 1A..but 1B and 2 look great!

Haven't you heard that Burfict is a 4th round project though? I am to the point where I really want out of that first spot. I would trade down I think besides Luck that the value of the extra picks combined with the talent at the bottom of 1 and into 2 outweighs the Value of the top by itself.

There is no AJ Greens or Patrick Petersons. I was high on Blackmon last year and I think it was you who told me Jeffrey was the better receiver. I just am not sure if Blackmon translates into a #1. The guy is productive though. I am scared to touch either for some reason at this time.

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The Browns should trade down with the Seahawks. This team has too many holes to be filled. The Browns have very little impact on the field from Savage and Mangini's drafts...Mack,Thomas,Rubin and Jackson..thats it.
None of those are what I would consider difference makers.
This upcoming draft will probally be the most important since the 99 return

Ignoring your ultra specific trade down partner who will be picking in the mid teens (ew)

I don't want to pick lower than 5 in this draft.

Luck
RG3
Kalil
Blackmon
Claiborne

Do we need alot of positions? Yes.

But we also need TALENT.

So tired of trading down. We need quality pros. We need top end of the draft guys.

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So tired of trading down. We need quality pros. We need top end of the draft guys.

Thank you.

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ESPN reporting that RG3 will enter the draft.

Would have been surprised to hear otherwise...

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The Browns should trade down with the Seahawks. This team has too many holes to be filled. The Browns have very little impact on the field from Savage and Mangini's drafts...Mack,Thomas,Rubin and Jackson..thats it.
None of those are what I would consider difference makers.
This upcoming draft will probally be the most important since the 99 return

Ignoring your ultra specific trade down partner who will be picking in the mid teens (ew)

But we also need TALENT.

I'm not advocating a draft down to the Seattle pick, but are you saying that talent can't be gotten at that selection?

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That guy has some sick speed. He doesn't look big but he sure plays it. I wonder what his YAC avg. is? I seen some pretty bad angles by the DB's but half the time it didn't matter. The guy was a yard away from making the tackle before he caught the ball and he caught it and flat out put the burners on. Looks like a real playmaker. Nice catch Turk! I like your draft for the most part except for 1A..but 1B and 2 look great! Haven't you heard that Burfict is a 4th round project though? I am to the point where I really want out of that first spot. I would trade down I think besides Luck that the value of the extra picks combined with the talent at the bottom of 1 and into 2 outweighs the Value of the top by itself.

There is no AJ Greens or Patrick Petersons. I was high on Blackmon last year and I think it was you who told me Jeffrey was the better receiver. I just am not sure if Blackmon translates into a #1. The guy is productive though. I am scared to touch either for some reason at this time.

I think Jeffrey is a lost cause now.. He doesn't have the speed to get separation. He is just a big body. Of course just about everyone loves a guy you can throw a ball up and he go snags it.. but he's not the guy I want.

My entire mock depends on what we do with Colt.. If we stick w/ Colt.. then we need more offensive picks.. more oline, wr, rb.. etc..

If we get RG3 or even Luck for that matter, I think they make great use of what we have.

MoMass gets separation. I like that. I actually love that. But his concussions are really worrying me.
Little is a beast, and will only get better.
Norwood is a good slot guy, has great hands, and is very shifty. Not to mention his route running is excellent for a guy so young. He also adds some punt return ability.
The rest (including Cribbs) are just extra and don't matter. Colt just needs a blazer like Wright, Hilton to throw deep to.

If we trade down (ONLY if we keep Colt), then we need to get one of the top guards coming out.. and get a RT w/ a 2nd round or 3rd pick.

Phil Taylor isn't a quality pro? He's not a top end of the draft guy? He was a first round pick! Last I knew, that was in the top end of the draft.

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MoMass gets separation. I like that. I actually love that. But his concussions are really worrying me.

Massaquoi gets separation? From who?

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Little is a beast, and will only get better.

If he can be taught to hold onto the ball.

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Norwood is a good slot guy, has great hands, and is very shifty. Not to mention his route running is excellent for a guy so young. He also adds some punt return ability.

He's the only wide receiver on the roster playing his legitimate role on the field.
The rest (including Cribbs) are just extra and don't matter.

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Colt just needs a blazer like Wright, Hilton to throw deep to.

The receivers need to learn how to catch and to get separation. That's the weakest spot on the entire team. If they can get either one from the receivers, the Browns probably add 2 or 3 wins. If other areas of the team improve their play, additional wins could be had.

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If we trade down (ONLY if we keep Colt), then we need to get one of the top guards coming out.. and get a RT w/ a 2nd round or 3rd pick.

I don't disagree with a word of this.

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Phil Taylor isn't a quality pro? He's not a top end of the draft guy? He was a first round pick! Last I knew, that was in the top end of the draft.

Big difference between a guy like Phil Taylor who is the back end of the first round, and guys like Von Miller, and Suh who are top 5 picks.

Not saying that is always how it goes, but how often can you keep passing up the best of the best?

I wouldnt take a receiver early but I would take a couple in this draft. Dwight Jones, Jordan White, Broyles, Fuller and the kids from Arkansas are all gonna go in the 3-5 range and could add real competition and quiet possibly beat out some of our current receivers without the major investment in the position.

I agree on Mo, he is one of my favorite players but concussions are a huge concern, same with our 2 stud TE's

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Big difference between a guy like Phil Taylor who is the back end of the first round, and guys like Von Miller, and Suh who are top 5 picks.

And their teams sucked. Got a clue for you, we still suck and it has more to do with the coaching than the players.

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Not saying that is always how it goes, but how often can you keep passing up the best of the best?

Ask Green Bay, Putzburgh, NE, etc, who are never drafting that high in the draft but still are playoff bound ever year picking in the 20s or later?

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Ask Green Bay, Putzburgh, NE, etc, who are never drafting that high in the draft but still are playoff bound ever year picking in the 20s or later?

i think it has something to do with the QB's they have.. just maybe..

I am pretty sure Blackmon wont make it past Indy or Jacksonville.

The thought of Manning with Blackmon intrigues me. Wayne is getting up there and that would open up the Indy attack.

Jacksonville does not have a reciever with more than 500 yards.

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Big difference between a guy like Phil Taylor who is the back end of the first round, and guys like Von Miller, and Suh who are top 5 picks.

And their teams sucked. Got a clue for you, we still suck and it has more to do with the coaching than the players.

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Not saying that is always how it goes, but how often can you keep passing up the best of the best?

Ask Green Bay, Putzburgh, NE, etc, who are never drafting that high in the draft but still are playoff bound ever year picking in the 20s or later?

Totally disagree.

And look at New England, not picking high has hurt that team. Look at that defense. If it wasn't for Brady, they're worse than the Browns.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with trading out of a high pick, but you can't keep doing it.

As long as the Browns don't panic, I'll be happy. They'll have plenty of options including trading up or down. Staying put and taking what's leftover of RGIII, Kalil or Blackmon

If we take RGIII, I'd like for once to see him sit ont he bench for at least half the year. This all depends on the starter not getting hurt but that's also why I'd keep McCoy (cheap), Wallace (good back-up $) on the roster. At the end of the day, the Browns will still be paying the position less then most teams.

If we don't get a QB, we've got to add playmakers so I'd go Blackmon or Richardson unless Kalil fell to us where I'd draft him to solidify the line for the next 10 years.

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If we take RGIII, I'd like for once to see him sit ont he bench for at least half the year. This all depends on the starter not getting hurt but that's also why I'd keep McCoy (cheap), Wallace (good back-up $) on the roster. At the end of the day, the Browns will still be paying the position less then most teams.

I'm really starting to question whether or not a QB should sit or not.. If RG3 is for sure drafted by us.. he won't get better on the sideline. He won't. Who is he going to learn from?

If we get him.. let him compete in training camp for the starting spot.. if he out competes.. let him start Day 1.

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If we take RGIII, I'd like for once to see him sit ont he bench for at least half the year. This all depends on the starter not getting hurt but that's also why I'd keep McCoy (cheap), Wallace (good back-up $) on the roster. At the end of the day, the Browns will still be paying the position less then most teams.

I'm really starting to question whether or not a QB should sit or not.. If RG3 is for sure drafted by us.. he won't get better on the sideline. He won't. Who is he going to learn from?

If we get him.. let him compete in training camp for the starting spot.. if he out competes.. let him start Day 1.

That's becoming a thing of the past. Coaches don't have time to wait for their QB to somehow become great while sitting on the bench. Guys get hired and fired too often.

If he can play, he can play.

Remember Colt's first preseason game last year in GB? He didn't look like he belonged anywhere near an NFL roster.

He comes in, plays decent vs Pittsburgh in his first start, and has been pretty much the same QB since. Don't think sitting/playing had any effect.

I'm torn personally. Yes, it depends on the individual and also on our other personnel. If we don't upgrade the line or skill position players then I don't want him to get shell shocked ala Carr, Couch, McCoy, Bradshaw, etc.

If Claiborne and Blackmon are available when we draft...and we take RGIII

...well...I don't even want to think about that.

If he's there at 1B I am ok with taking him...although I would STILL not use THAT pick on THAT guy.

We are not a team that can use a top 5 pick on a guy who shouldn't play for a year or two.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...we are ONE MORE offseason away from being a team that can take a high 1st pick and let him sit...provided H&H continue to find solid players.

This draft - and an aggressive FA period - gives us the opportunity to get to the point where we can be that team.

Can we get No. 3 if Minnesota beats Chicago?

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Can we get No. 3 if Minnesota beats Chicago?

Yes.

yes. if jax and min both win and we lose, we get 3.

16-6 Jacksonville over Indy going into 4th
14-13 Chicago over Minnesota mid-way through 3

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MoMass gets separation. I like that. I actually love that. But his concussions are really worrying me.

Massaquoi gets separation? From who?

His first year he averaged 18.4 yards/reception on 34 catches. There's gotta be some separation there.

Then we changed up QBs ....... and his production plummeted.

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Little is a beast, and will only get better.

If he can be taught to hold onto the ball.

How many drops has he had in the past 2 games?

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Norwood is a good slot guy, has great hands, and is very shifty. Not to mention his route running is excellent for a guy so young. He also adds some punt return ability.

He's the only wide receiver on the roster playing his legitimate role on the field.
The rest (including Cribbs) are just extra and don't matter.

I think that we definitely could use another outside receiver, but that we do have NFL talent at the position .... protestations to the contrary.

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Colt just needs a blazer like Wright, Hilton to throw deep to.

The receivers need to learn how to catch and to get separation. That's the weakest spot on the entire team. If they can get either one from the receivers, the Browns probably add 2 or 3 wins. If other areas of the team improve their play, additional wins could be had.

How many times have we seen a wide receiver open deep ..... and the pass nowhere near where it needed to be ... resulting in either a pass that the receiver had to stop for, or that was incomplete?

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If we trade down (ONLY if we keep Colt), then we need to get one of the top guards coming out.. and get a RT w/ a 2nd round or 3rd pick.

I don't disagree with a word of this.

We will probably look for a RT, but I bet that we stay with the same LT-RG combination next year. It's a young group that appears to be growing together.

for those thinking Colts will trade first pick and not get Luck...

Link

.....or he's trying to drive up the price....I think he'll take Luck but just sayin'

Well there ya' go...It's set...

Indy
Rams
Minny
US ...If we lose...

1) Luck
2) Kalil
3) Trade???...RGII available here???...Or they take Claiborne/Blackmon...

Lookin' like we end up with RGIII...Claiborne...Blackmon...

...or a move-down. I wouldn't be upset if we did that again. We need so much help at so many positions...

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Well there ya' go...It's set...

Indy
Rams
Minny
US ...If we lose...

1) Luck
2) Kalil
3) Trade???...RGII available here???...Or they take Claiborne/Blackmon...

Lookin' like we end up with RGIII...Claiborne...Blackmon...

I'll take that

I am really hoping for RG3.

We need to take the big chance this year where there is no incredible talent to pass up, and where we have that guy with risk, but huge reward potential. We just need to hope he falls to us, and that no one trades up ahead of us to get him.

Minnesota worries the hell out of me .... but there is word that they like Webb, and they did just draft Ponder ..... so they may go for help.

I would love to know what Holmgren, Heckert, Shurmur and the rest of the bigwigs with the Browns think of RG3, behind closed doors, no posturing, no BS'ing. Just an honest assessment of whether or not he can run this system.

Dying to know.

Personally, I think he has the intelligence to pick it up, can play under Center, and has the arm to make every throw we need him to make.

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I would love to know what Holmgren, Heckert, Shurmur and the rest of the bigwigs with the Browns think of RG3, behind closed doors, no posturing, no BS'ing. Just an honest assessment of whether or not he can run this system.

Dying to know.

I believe Shurmur when he said talented players fit any system. Whether he thinks RGIII is really that talented, we'll see. But what we know is that RGIII has a strong arm, is extremely fast, smart, and "cares" about football. We also know he has poor mechanics and doesn't play in an NFL style offense.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out...

so even if we lose we are picking 4th with all of the other teams losing today?

1. Indianapolis (2-13) lost
2. St. Louis (2-13) lost
3. Minnesota (3-12) lost
? Jacksonville (4-11) won
? Cleveland (4-11) pending
Tampa Bay (4-11) losing 20-0
Washington (5-10) lost
Miami (5-10) won

So we're 5th, at best?

Crap!

We're 4th...Jax is 5-11...

We are 4th right now ... Jacksonville won (5-11). IF we win not sure where we land.

Aha.

Instead of drafting a QB anyone think we might take a shot at Flynn of GB? There is a Holmgren connection there....

I hope not. I am completely not sold on Flynn, and I think that he is going to require a huge contract. I don't see a ceiling of greatness. I see his ceiling as decent. Decent doesn't win Super Bowls.

Actually, we're 4th if TB has higher strength of schedule, otherwise 5th.

TB getting waxed right now by Atlanta.

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We are 4th right now ... Jacksonville won (5-11). IF we win not sure where we land.

looks like it could go all the way to 7th?

Ytown,

I haven't seen much of Flynn, just wondered since he lit it up today and is UFA in 2012.

Agreed, the contract demands will be high,...just wondering out loud.

I just worry about a guy who has had so little exposure, and was such a low draft pick to start with. He doesn't appear to have any special abilities that I have seen. We have seen so many backups that look pretty good ..... until they are "the guy" .... and I worry that this is what we would see if we signed him.

That's a valid concern.

I also worry about us going after RGIII and inheriting the Heisman curse. However, I know little about his career as I just don't have the time to follow the college game as closely as others. Maybe he will be the exception to past history.

so we are not @ 5 since we beat Jax?

Draft tie-breaker is strength of schedule, not head to head as it is for division standings.

So yeah we're #4 as long as we lose tonight.

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That's a valid concern.

I also worry about us going after RGIII and inheriting the Heisman curse. However, I know little about his career as I just don't have the time to follow the college game as closely as others. Maybe he will be the exception to past history.

There are differences between RG3 and past winners. The short version is that if you take a look at the previous winners, they were guys who were the highest profile players on the highest profile teams, where they looked better because of the talent around them. Leinart is the posterchild for that. However, RG3 was the entire offense on a team not filled with NFL talent.

Now that doesn't mean he's a lock, because he isn't. As much as I like him, he's small and has the Vick problem where he doesn't know how to avoid taking shots, meaning he won't be playing all 16-games every season. However, I haven't seen a QB who has that natural of a gift in terms of being a passer. That arm is just plus in so many ways.

RG3 = Troy Smith. Except he doesn't even take snaps from under center.

Smith was mobile but preferred to stay in the pocket. He had a strong arm. He was accurate. He was dominant in college. He won the Heisman.

We all know how well that translated to the NFL.

No thanks.

Totally agree about the Heisman jinx and RG3, I mean think about where Baylor football was before he came in.

It's obvious that his stats are padded because his team's defense is horrible, but just watching the guy play, he's incredibly smart, throws bullets, and is a great leader.

I don't know about him at the next level, I'm no scout, but I really think he's ahead of where other mobile QB's were when they came out, like Vick and Young, etc...

I say take a shot on him, if he's sittin there. I probably wouldn't mortage a bunch of picks to move up a spot or two to get him, but if he's there, I think that could be a guy to change the culture.

Yeah, I love that he is the guy who was the major reason that Baylor became a good team.

He's smart, has a plus arm, excellent accuracy, and can make all of the throws. He also has good mobility.

There's a lot to like there.

I think it's kinda weird a guy like that would throw bullets like he does, but man he can throw.

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RG3 = Troy Smith. Except he doesn't even take snaps from under center.

Smith was mobile but preferred to stay in the pocket. He had a strong arm. He was accurate. He was dominant in college. He won the Heisman.

We all know how well that translated to the NFL.

No thanks.

Troy Smith was not DOMINANT in college.. he was good yes.. but he was not DOMINANT..

If he was DOMINANT.. he would have gotten drafted a lot higher than he did.

Don't even put those two names together..

Yeah, and that's what I think is his key to the NFL. He has an arm, is accurate, and can make all of the throws .... plus he is smart as can be.

He really does have everything except a couple of inches in height, and experience in a pro style offense. I don't think that either is a fatal flaw.

I think his throwing is well ahead of where Cam Newton was coming out of Auburn as well. Although RG3 doesn't have that Lebron'esque frame that Cam has.

I think there are some similarities to RG3 and Troy Smith but RG3 is better in every aspect of being a QB, and he's a better athlete.

I agree.

I don't think that there is any comparison though as far as passing ability. I think that RG3 is way ahead of anything that Smith did as far as accuracy to all levels.

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RG3 = Troy Smith. Except he doesn't even take snaps from under center.

Smith was mobile but preferred to stay in the pocket. He had a strong arm. He was accurate. He was dominant in college. He won the Heisman.

We all know how well that translated to the NFL.

No thanks.

Troy Smith was not DOMINANT in college.. he was good yes.. but he was not DOMINANT..

If he was DOMINANT.. he would have gotten drafted a lot higher than he did.

Don't even put those two names together..

Sure he was. His senior year stats :

203 for 311 , 65.3% , 2542 yards, 8.2 yds/attempt, 30 TD, 6 INT, QB rating of 161.9. He also ran for a score.

He took his team to the national championship game and was ranked #1 most of the year.

He won the Heisman with 86.7% of the votes (the most ever in history) and won the Johnny Unitas award (top senior QB) as well as the Davey O'Brien award (best college QB).

If that's not dominant, then nothing is.

The reason he dropped to the 5th round was people questioned whether his skill set would transition well to the NFL game and he was too short.

I have those same doubts about RG3 except they are even worse because he would have to learn the how to take a snap from under center, the footwork associated with his drops along with learning to read a defense. I'm sorry I don't want my shiny new "savior" QB trying to learn from square one.

Everyone seems to gloss over those deficiencies due to the recent NFL successes of Cam Newton and Tim Tebow.

You may want to retract Tim Tebow from that statement. Yikes.

I would argue the difference is that Smith was surrounded by elite talent. RG3 is not. Smith was recognized as being an inferior talent through the combines and workouts, falling to the 6th round. RG3 has talents that Smith never had.

so we have the 4th pick?

Draft order, top 10, since Seattle is still playing at this time, but they would be 11 or later, not top 10.
1 - Indy
2 - Stl
3 - Min
4 - CLEVELAND
5 - TB
6 - Washington
7 - Jax
8 - Miami
9 - Carolina
10 - Buffalo

These are locked in, all teams with 6 wins or less, seattle has 7 already so no bearing on top 10.

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so we have the 4th pick?

yup. I believe so

Indy 2 wins
Rams 2 wins
Minny 3 wins
Browns 4 wins
Tampa 4 wins (stronger SOS)

4th pick..

1. Indy - Luck for sure
2. Rams - Kalil?
3. Minny - could go many ways
4. Browns - could also go many ways

1. Indy - Luck for sure
2. Rams - Kalil/Blackman
3. Minny - Trade to a team that wants RGIII to get ahead of Browns
4. Browns - ....Claiborne/Richardson/Blackman

Atlanta has the #24 pick, so unless they win the Super Bowl, or go to it and lose, that will be our pick.

So basically...

#24 - Don't make SB
#31 - Lose the SB
#32 - Win the SB

ATL will probably get knocked out in their first game, they are horrible away from the Georgia dome.

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1. Indy - Luck for sure

Number 1 pick will definitely be Luck, but we'll see if Indy is the team that takes him.

I still have hope that we can trade up and get him. Short-term, probably not the best call. But long-term, I think it could pay off huge dividends

There are a few of us that believe in Tannehill and I know many others would trade the farm for Luck and quite a few that would go hard for RG3. After today, I dont think any of us will get the QB we wanted. The odds on favorite right now has to be Matt Flynn. He looked better than Aaron Rogers out there and he will cost a lot of dollars but no draft pick.

Has any backup ever signed a big deal and it actually worked out for the team signing him?

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Has any backup ever signed a big deal and it actually worked out for the team signing him?

Matt Schuab QB Texans

Matt Schuab?

- Either way, I don't want FA Matt Flynn.

I'd like to draft a QB (Luck/RG3) or try to continue to develop Colt McCoy. Either really fix the position or work with what we have and continue to improve the rest of our team.

I do think McCoy will be better next year. There's no reason that he won't get better. Another year of learning the west coast offense, and another off-season to work out, get bigger, improve his accuracy. More time with the QB coach, OTA's to improve timing. I think we'd see a better Colt. Would he be great? I dunno. But with better weapons, he'll be better.

Throwing money into someone like Flynn is just as big of a risk as a big draft pick. After watching Matt Cassel and Kevin Kolb fall on their faces, I have a tough time grabbing Matt Flynn. I watched him a lot in college and never was very impressed. Green Bay is a team that's running on all cylinders, they're in a rhythm, winning breeds winning. Come to Cleveland and let's see you throw 5 TD's in one game.....

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Has any backup ever signed a big deal and it actually worked out for the team signing him?

Matt Schaub

Griffin averages more than 2 yards more per attempt over Smith that year. Not to mention he's a much more accurate QB. Not to mention, RGIII has played extremely well ever since he started at Baylor. Freshman year till now.

RGIII is a much better QB than Troy Smith ever was in College.

Scott Mitchell, Matt Kassel, Byron Leftwhich, etc.

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Ask Green Bay, Putzburgh, NE, etc, who are never drafting that high in the draft but still are playoff bound ever year picking in the 20s or later?

i think it has something to do with the QB's they have.. just maybe..

We all know Brady was a 6th round pick, but Rodgers fell to the 24 selection to Green Bay and even Roethlisberger fell out of the top 10 picks. Flacco, who led his team to the #2 seed and first round bye this year was a 2nd round pick.

Considering where McCoy was drafted and the talent on the offensive side of the ball that he's had, I think it's remarkable what he's been able to accomplish.

The team was better last year than it was this year. That ain't saying a lot, but under the new HC the team regressed with younger players and better talent.

A new scheme - a poor version of the WCO, a new head coach - with a football IQ of a Jr Varsity second stringer, a new defensive system - one that did remarkably well because the DC actually knows the system he's running, and yet we went 4-12, one win worse than Mangini's 5-11 of last year.

Just FYI, Flacco was a 1st rounder, not 2nd.

He was selected #18 overall in 2008.

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Totally disagree.

And look at New England, not picking high has hurt that team. Look at that defense. If it wasn't for Brady, they're worse than the Browns.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with trading out of a high pick, but you can't keep doing it.

New England is the AFC #1 seed. They're in the playoffs every year. Of course, it has something to do with the players, but it has more to do with the coaching of those players.

If you can get multiple 1st round picks and multiple 2nd round picks, think you can continue to do it.

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Just FYI, Flacco was a 1st rounder, not 2nd.

He was selected #18 overall in 2008.

You're right. I had a brain fart. It doesn't hurt the case that you can't draft a QB further back than the Top 5 for a playoff quality QB.

The problem isn't that there isn't talent further down in the first, second, third and even fourth rounds of the draft. It's being able to acquire these talented players and using them properly. That's due to coaching.

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I would love to know what Holmgren, Heckert, Shurmur and the rest of the bigwigs with the Browns think of RG3, behind closed doors, no posturing, no BS'ing. Just an honest assessment of whether or not he can run this system.

Dying to know.

I can answer that for you. RG3 can't run the system that they want to implement here. Furthermore, I don't think it matters what Shurmur thinks.

The draft choices will be made by Heckert or with Holmgren overruling him. Shurmur might be asked, but it won't make any impact on how either Heckert or Holmgren drafts.

So the coaches input on a player doesn't impact whether or not a player will be drafted? That doesn't seem very healthy. It sounds like the opposite of the Mangini/Kokinis relationship.

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Draft order, top 10, since Seattle is still playing at this time, but they would be 11 or later, not top 10.
1 - Indy
2 - Stl
3 - Min
4 - CLEVELAND
5 - TB
6 - Washington
7 - Jax
8 - Miami
9 - Carolina
10 - Buffalo

These are locked in, all teams with 6 wins or less, seattle has 7 already so no bearing on top 10.

Flip flop Miami and Carolina.

They're both 6-10 and have equal SoS at .5039. The next tie-breaker is Division winning% where Carolina is .3333 and Miami is .5000.

Refer to my spreadsheet in the Atlanta and Draft Order thread

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RG3 = Troy Smith. Except he doesn't even take snaps from under center.

Smith was mobile but preferred to stay in the pocket. He had a strong arm. He was accurate. He was dominant in college. He won the Heisman.

We all know how well that translated to the NFL.

No thanks.

Couldn't agree more.

I don't think he's Troy Smith. I think he is a better Dan LeFevour.

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I don't think he's Troy Smith. I think he is a better Dan LeFevour.

who is Dan LeFevour? a 6th round pick?

I don't remember where he was picked. I do know his college numbers and games remind me of RGIII, only RGIII played better competition.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/559484

not a guy I want...
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/5809/dan-lefevour
Jaguars nab QB LeFevour from Colts
Nov 25 - 12:48 PM
Bengals cut LeFevour from practice squad
Sep 6 - 4:00 PM
Bengals claim LeFevour off waivers from Bears
Sep 5 - 2:26 PM
Bears waive LeFevour
Sep 4 - 8:43 PM

Right. I don't want RGIII either. Not at where we'll be picking anyway. But I do think he is better than LeFevour, who also put up ridiculous numbers in college.

by the way, graff, thanks for putting that together all year.

I really hope you don't have to do this in the future.

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The Browns should trade down with the Seahawks. This team has too many holes to be filled. The Browns have very little impact on the field from Savage and Mangini's drafts...Mack,Thomas,Rubin and Jackson..thats it.
None of those are what I would consider difference makers.
This upcoming draft will probally be the most important since the 99 return

unlike the impact players the H&H drafts have brought us,which are....hmmm,wow,uh,gee,ahh,maybe Sheard?

Just in general .....

I've said it before and I'll say it again ...... I would definitely take a gamble on a guy potentially being great ..... or busting ... at the single most important position on the football field. I think that RG3 brings a LOT to the table, and I think that he'll be a great pro QB. He has absolutely everything except 2 inches in height and experience in a pro style offense. He can,however, make every throw necessary, and can do so on time, and with accuracy. (Not just hitting a spot, but hitting a receiver so he can make yards after the catch) He has leadership and super intelligence. I would definitely take a chance on him being a great QB. If I'm wrong, then I would live with it ..... but he has a chance to be a real game changer .... and there aren't going to be many of those available in this draft ..... even at 4. There will be good players ..... but players with flaws compared to similar players in past drafts. Put the whole picture together and it makes no sense not to take a chance on a QB in this draft ... especially one with proven ability to turn around a bad team, and to carry a bad team.

Haden? Taylor? Ward? Lauvao? Pinkston? Little? All are at least average NFL starters.

(Little ended his rookie season with 709 receiving yards, pretty good for a rookie who hadn't played football for a year, I'm excited to see what he can do in the future.)

we are talking impact players,not avg.starters.

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Haden? Taylor? Ward? Lauvao? Pinkston? Little? All are at least average NFL starters.

AVG is used too lax around here....AVG means that half the other starters in the league are worse and Im not sure that's the case with most

Here's how I see it to date (pretty much their floor if they cant get better) + upside/ceiling....grade scale goes from crap to bad to below AVG to AVG to above AVG to good to great...and elite

Haden: above AVG to good starter with great to elite upside left

Taylor: below AVG to AVG starter with good to great uspide left

Ward: above AVG starter with good to great upside left (as a SS, not FS)

Lauvao: bad to below AVG starter with AVG to above AVG upside left (and that's ok for a RG)

Pinkston: below AVG to AVG starter with above AVG to good upside left

Little: below AVG starter with good upside left

for comparisons sake and just for fun:

McCoy: bad to below AVG starter with AVG to above AVG upside left (and that's not ok for a QB)

I'd say that's pretty successful. Especially considering we traded down last year and picked up more picks.

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Haden? Taylor? Ward? Lauvao? Pinkston? Little? All are at least average NFL starters.

(Little ended his rookie season with 709 receiving yards, pretty good for a rookie who hadn't played football for a year, I'm excited to see what he can do in the future.)

I would not call Joe Haden an average NFL CB. Sure, he gave up a big play today, however, there is a big reason we see Sheldon Brown's number called all the time. Haden is a shut down corner and plays go away from him. He is young and has given up a few big plays, sure. Ward is pretty good too. We noticed a huge difference when he went down. Next year will be huge for Joe Haden, calling it now!

I agree with the rest being average with the exception of Lauvao being below average. He simply stinks.

My sentiment is that our draft goals should be to fix the offense around McCoy. Bring in a stud RT, WR, and OG with the first 3 picks and see what happens with better protection and skill. I think we could do well by waiting a year for a QB.

Look at what Baltimore done once they drafted Flacco. I remember this biggest problem with the Ravens for years was Kyle Boller's horrible play. They built an excellent offensive line and brought in Ray Rice with him. If I recall, anytime we've tried to fix our QB situation we tended to jump the gun before the elements around him were set. This ruins QBs. For once, I'd to see us fix the line and bring in an elite WR before pulling the trigger on a new QB.

Read again please...

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Haden? Taylor? Ward? Lauvao? Pinkston? Little? All are at least average NFL starters.

I disagree with you about Lauvao. I think as the season progressed he played much better.

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Read again please...

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Haden? Taylor? Ward? Lauvao? Pinkston? Little? All are at least average NFL starters.

I disagree with you about Lauvao. I think as the season progressed he played much better.

I will say that today he looked pretty aweful.

It's not successful,and it surely isn't pretty successful,It's average,not pretty average,just average.

So getting six NFL starters in two drafts, along with some others who have the potential to start (Cameron, Skrine, Marecic) isn't successful?

What would be successful to you? A Pro Bowler every pick?

Actually,only drafting 6 starters on a talent-starved rebuilding team is crappy,no it's pretty crappy.
I'm hoping the number isn't that low.

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Actually,only drafting 6 starters on a talent-starved rebuilding team is crappy,no it's pretty crappy.
I'm hoping the number isn't that low.

In 2 drafts where they had maybe 15 picks?

I hate to tell you this, but 6 starters out of that bunch is pretty darn good.

Haden
Ward
Sheard
Taylor
Pinkston
Lavauo
Little

And if you include nickle, Skrine.

If we include guys who made the field and can sometimes contribute, you can add Cameron and Hagg.

The only guy that Heckert missed on was Hardesty, and that was a risky pick.

Long story short, there is no reason to believe Heckert cannot do this job.

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Draft order, top 10, since Seattle is still playing at this time, but they would be 11 or later, not top 10.
1 - Indy
2 - Stl
3 - Min
4 - CLEVELAND
5 - TB
6 - Washington
7 - Jax
8 - Miami
9 - Carolina
10 - Buffalo

These are locked in, all teams with 6 wins or less, seattle has 7 already so no bearing on top 10.

Flip flop Miami and Carolina.

They're both 6-10 and have equal SoS at .5039. The next tie-breaker is Division winning% where Carolina is .3333 and Miami is .5000.

Refer to my spreadsheet in the Atlanta and Draft Order thread .

The chair monster got a hold of me (i.e. napped) right as the dal/nyg game ended so just catching up cause I can't sleep now.

Anyway... Mia and Car will go to coin-flip because they are in separate conferences. It's weird I know, but it ONLY goes to the division or conference tie-breakers IF the two teams are either in the same division or same conference, but not opposite conferences. This happened to us a few years ago with Tampa and we got Joe Thomas, thank whatever you believe in (iirc)

, when we did the coin flip with them at the combine. KC and Sea face the same issue for pick(s) 11 and 12.

Unless the rules have changed since then, which is entirely possible.

I was simply listing Miami first cause they had been that way on my spreadsheet longer.

I see lots of discussion about teams trading for Luck, and the discussion is all over the board with numerous teams being mentioned.

From my view, Luck is ours if Indy decides to trade and we decide to make the move. Bank it.

First, Indy has to decide to trade, and that's a big IF. They are either going to draft Luck, or trade the pick. No way they simply draft another player and allow St. Louis to gain the bounty of trading away the pick, so we don't even need to consider that as a possibility.

If Indy decides they are going to draft Luck, I hope they do the rest of the league a favor and simply say so. It serves no real purpose to field offers if in your heart you know you aren't trading for any amount. It's just wasting time, both yours and their's.

As I see it, we hold the best package for Indy.

Unless St. Louis or Minnesota become players for Luck, which at this point hasn't been considered a realistic possibility, a trade with us drops the Colts 3 positions in the draft. Better than any other team can offer.

We also hold 2 first round picks THIS YEAR....and that is big. While the thought of future picks sound good, there is nothing better than having immediate payout.

If this does get down to future picks, we can offer just as much as anybody else. Future picks are future picks. They are all the same. You can't bank the value until that future season plays out. It's like a stock option. You know when you will be able to cash it, you just don't know exactly what it will be worth.

Considering that there are already "Luck" jerseys showing up in Indy in huge numbers (and they're not even officially on sale) ... there is as close to zero percent chance of them not taking him as is humanly possible. Indy would have a revolt if they do anything but draft Luck ..... unless they get some absolutely ridiculous offer like 10 1st round picks. As much as I like Luck, I don't think I would do that. In fact, I know I wouldn't.

It just depends on what they do with Manning.

But in the end, I agree, Luck goes to Indy. It's a closed door hoping for otherwise.

1) I think Luck goes to Indy. Future picks don't do them much good with Manning at the end of his career AND they know a) Manning may not be healthy for much longer and b) Luck may give them another "Manning" to plug right in.

2) I don't think we take RGIII. He is another spread QB on a small frame AND a failure to turn that into a pro-bowl caliber QB really tarnishes Holmgren's legacy as a QB guru (ie too much risk). Plus, I think someone trades ahead of us to get him anyways.

3) Which means that we should see either Blackmon OR Khalil left for us at 4 and i would take either of those guys in a heartbeat. In the end, not a bad situation to be in. I would only consider a trade back if Blackmon was gone and someone else in the top 10 offered us a decent package to move up for Khalil.

Great ..... mid first round talent at #4. That would make sense.

What mid first round talent. Most boards have both Khalil and Blackmon in the top 3. And with the new slotting, we can afford Khalil at 4.

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What mid first round talent. Most boards have both Khalil and Blackmon in the top 3. And with the new slotting, we can afford Khalil at 4.

If not RG3.. then Claiborne is next on deck.. Kalil doesn't make sense @ 4.. no way we get him and put him at RT.

In this draft.

Last year the Bengals took AJ Green at #4. Blackmon is not AJ Green. He's not close.

A couple of years ago we took Joe Haden at #7. He was a more developed and all around superior prospect compared to Claiborne. Kahill is a quality T, but is he as good as Joe Thomas who we took at 3 a few years ago?

This draft is deep ... but there are few truly elite talents. I would try to get one of the elite players, or take a chance with one of my high picks and hope I get an elite guy at 4. We should be able to get "good" players from 1B to 4 ..... but we need to swing for the fences at the top and try to crush a grand slam. Singles aren't going to win this division. We need some home runs.

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What mid first round talent. Most boards have both Khalil and Blackmon in the top 3. And with the new slotting, we can afford Khalil at 4.

If not RG3.. then Claiborne is next on deck.. Kalil doesn't make sense @ 4.. no way we get him and put him at RT.

I agree. Pick 1b is where we might look OL.

Claiborne and Haden would make a solid pair.

I see the point about having another great corner, but this draft is pretty deep at CB. I don't see any problem with plugging Kalil in at RT. What could be wrong with bookend studs on the OL? The QB would have forever in the pocket and we'd be able to run outside. We could have the best offensive line in the NFL if we did that. Plus tackles have long careers and are durable when they are not named Pashos.

The problem of drafting an RT that high is that it's not worth it. He does not protect the QB's blindside. A RT wouldn't make as much impact on this team as a QB, WR, DE, or even CB would make. At the top of the draft, you go impact players, and an RT is just not that when you have a right-handed QB.

Well, if we can get a RT later, fine. We just have to get one that doesn't suck, because that killed us this year. If we need impact guys, I say Blackmon or trade down and grab Richardson. I like Claiborne, but this team's problems are on the other side of the ball. We have to use two of our first three picks on offense, IMO.

After seeing a year of the fragile Hillis and Hardesty I'm ALMOST willing to be happy with Trent Richardson at 4.

I see us going nowhere with those two walking triage RB's.

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The problem of drafting an RT that high is that it's not worth it. He does not protect the QB's blindside. A RT wouldn't make as much impact on this team as a QB, WR, DE, or even CB would make. At the top of the draft, you go impact players, and an RT is just not that when you have a right-handed QB.

I feel this is a huge myth -- it used to be true before the advent of exotic blitz packages, and when teams always lined up their best pass rusher on the QBs blind side.

Now, the value of an RT is almost equivalent to the value of an LT -- defenses always attack your weakest link, which makes LT much less valuable than in the past, and the other line positions much more valuable.

j/c

There is exactly one position that we should be drafting and it is most definitely not RT or Running Back.

Teams with great running backs suck all the time, as shown by the 3 of the top 5 teams having Adrian Peterson, Maurice Jones Drew and Steven Jackson. Wasting a pick on a guy we may use 20 times a game is just flat out not smart, especially when he could be out of the league in 5 years due to durability of the position.

QB or trade down, IMO. I would not be disappointed with the CB from LSU or Blackmon, but really there is one glaring need that must be filled.

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Great ..... mid first round talent at #4. That would make sense.

What??

Kalil and Blackmon are pretty widely regarded as #2 and either #3 or #4 in this entire draft. You may say "yeah but that's not as good as LAST YEAR" but you can only work with the draft you have. Two of the top 4 players are not mid round talent any way you want to spin it.

I agree we need "elite" talent. There is 1 of those in this draft. Some of us are ok trading the farm so to speak to go get that elite talent, not only b/c he's the only elite talent but it's also at the most important position on the field. But, we need to come to terms that as much as we offer, we still may not get him.

I have a philosophy that with a high first round pick, you have to get the best player available at a specific position. We have to start getting "the best" here and there to become competitive. At QB that's Luck. At OT that's Kalil. At WR that's Blackmon. At CB that's Claiborne. At RB that's Richardson. One of those 5 needs to be a Cleveland Brown (though I hate the idea of a 1st round RB so really it's only one of those 4 to me).

Look, YTown, I know you have a hard on for RG3.....and H&H must just be blinded enough to take him. And maybe he's the rare guy who breaks all the molds and really does work out, but don't poo-poo the idea of any of those other 4 (or 5) players by making stuff up to defend your obsession.

It's exactly why, even though CB certainly isn't our #1 need going into this offseason at ALL....it's still a need...and getting the #1 CB in the entire draft in Claiborne is never a bad thing. You pair him with Haden and all of a sudden we have one of the best starting CB tandems in the NFL. You build with the pieces that are available. Sure I'd rather get Luck and build this putrid offense instead, but it just might not work out that way. Doesn't make it dumb, or a bad draft.

thank you..excellent post..

Claiborne is a better prospect than Haden was. Really not that close.

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What??

Kalil and Blackmon are pretty widely regarded as #2 and either #3 or #4 in this entire draft. You may say "yeah but that's not as good as LAST YEAR" but you can only work with the draft you have. Two of the top 4 players are not mid round talent any way you want to spin it.

While true...those players still get drafted for the NFL, which means they get compared to those that were drafted before them and play in the NFL....and when you compare Blackmon to AJ or Claiborne to Haden or Kalil to Thomas...well, they come up short....some people could be upset if Blackmon "only" produces at good and not great level like AJ etc etc

While I like Claiborne this draft is pretty deep at CB and we "just" need a #2 and there are plenty of CBs for every round that I think are already or can develop into decent #2 CBs

I agree that the imprtance of the RT position has increased but it's still not a value position for a top 15 pick...especially not for a team like the Browns, who have holes at higher value positions AND already have some decent to pretty good pieces to the OL puzzle....

It's QB or consolation prize Blackmon for me....if both aren't there...trade down and grab DE Ingram

just a #2? we need two #1's with all these QB's getting 4000-5000+ passing yards now.

I am an RG3 fan, but I think if the Browns decide to not address the QB position they must select Trent Richardson. If you don't have a QB that can push the ball down the field and takeover a game then you need a RB who can. We all thought Hillis was going to be that guy, but clearly he is not.

Richardson is a game changer. Perfect fit for the AFC North. Speed, vision, and power.

Richardson is the only person I want at #4 if RG3 is gone or not selected. Justin Blackmon is not AJ Green and I don't think he is even a Julio Jones. We can possibly draft Floyd, Wright, or Sanu with our 1b or 2nd.

I am a huge fan of Claiborne, but we need to score points and with the current offense we can't get it done. If I am keeping Colt (or looking at Flynn), I am picking Richardson at 4, Wright at 1b, and a RT or CB like Minnifield, Hosley, Gilmore, or someone who has fallen down the board (maybe Dennard) BPA the rest of the way out.

H&H have their work cut out for them... If we are sitting at #4 and RG3 is there they are going to have a tough decision, RG3, Richardson, trade out....

Richardson won't be a Brown..

It will be either RG3, Claiborne, or Blackmon. I could be wrong, but I don't see Heckert pulling the trigger on a back that high.

I actually see the Browns getting a smaller, faster back... it could work.. ie Jerome Harrison.

jc

I think the Browns draft strategy at the top of the 1st is actually a lot simpler than what it could have been. Here is what I would do:

1) Make a reasonable offer to move up to #1 to take Luck. 'Reasonable' will continue to be debated but for me, the 3 firsts is pushing the limits of what I would do. Maybe throw a little fluff on top of that but that's it. I value our 2013 first rounder very highly. doubtful this gets done. Alternatively I would trade most of this draft but again, I'm doubtful that alone would get it done.

2) Stay at 4. Luck will go 1, Kalil will mostly likely be off the board, which leaves us 2 of RG3, Claiborne, and Blackmon. The other day I read someone say that they were dying to know what Holmgren/Heckert/Shurmur truly felt about RG3 and I agree. The only way we are likely to get legit insight into that is if RG3 is on the board when we pick. I'm undecided on what to do honestly.

3) Trade down. In the past I would have generally loved this option but with the dynamics of it being a top heavy draft combined with the rookie wage scale, someone would have to clearly overpay based on the draft value chart to get it done. Unlikely.

For all the concern about the defense, it just does not make sense to draft defensively until the second or 3rd round. The defense has played pretty well and is competitive, especially considering the poor state of the offense.

This team is a mess on offense. It starts with the passing game.

I would prefer QB and WR with the first couple of picks. The passing game is just not there, RT is a concern, but I agree with the playmaker assessment.

I'm still taking BPA....we have SOOOOOO many holes that this approach can't fail

j/c

I see guys all the time post on here that the Browns have to trade up for Luck or grab this guy or that one. The fact of the matter is that until the FA period is over or at least under way no one has a clue what they might do. Not even the Browns.

But I think that by looking back at the tendencies of H&H that you could make some educated guesses. One of my guesses would be that they will not trade up from #4 for anyone unless the deal is particularly special. And IMO that would not include using both first round picks plus whatever else it would take to move up for Luck. Or anyone else.

If RG3 is there at 4 (a big IF at that) I could see them pulling the trigger. But otherwise they're going to use those picks to pick whoever they feel best suits the needs of the team. And I'm more than OK with that.

j/c...

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The departure of the Polians may be only the beginning of a new look for the Colts, who played the entire season without Peyton Manning. The Colts finished 2-14 and are expected to take a quarterback with the top pick in the NFL Draft.All season long, that speculation has centered on Stanford’s Andrew Luck. Over the weekend, reports emerged that the team may be considering Baylor’s Heisman Trophy-winnng QB, Robert Griffin III.

link

Just curios if The Colts did this in order to draft how Irsay wanted to go.. I doubt it... but this seems odd

Irsay fired the Polians because they have been awful. They've missed on nearly every high draft pick in the past five years.

I will LOL at any team that drafts Mike Adams fat behind.

I think it's a lot of fun to speculate and discuss the draft.

But I know that I won't believe a single thing that comes out of any front office regarding the draft until the pick is actually in.

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But I know that I won't believe a single thing that comes out of any front office regarding the draft until the pick is actually in.

I know what you what mean...Keeps the off season interesting

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Great ..... mid first round talent at #4. That would make sense.

What??

Kalil and Blackmon are pretty widely regarded as #2 and either #3 or #4 in this entire draft. You may say "yeah but that's not as good as LAST YEAR" but you can only work with the draft you have. Two of the top 4 players are not mid round talent any way you want to spin it.

I agree we need "elite" talent. There is 1 of those in this draft. Some of us are ok trading the farm so to speak to go get that elite talent, not only b/c he's the only elite talent but it's also at the most important position on the field. But, we need to come to terms that as much as we offer, we still may not get him.

I have a philosophy that with a high first round pick, you have to get the best player available at a specific position. We have to start getting "the best" here and there to become competitive. At QB that's Luck. At OT that's Kalil. At WR that's Blackmon. At CB that's Claiborne. At RB that's Richardson. One of those 5 needs to be a Cleveland Brown (though I hate the idea of a 1st round RB so really it's only one of those 4 to me).

Look, YTown, I know you have a hard on for RG3.....and H&H must just be blinded enough to take him. And maybe he's the rare guy who breaks all the molds and really does work out, but don't poo-poo the idea of any of those other 4 (or 5) players by making stuff up to defend your obsession.

It's exactly why, even though CB certainly isn't our #1 need going into this offseason at ALL....it's still a need...and getting the #1 CB in the entire draft in Claiborne is never a bad thing. You pair him with Haden and all of a sudden we have one of the best starting CB tandems in the NFL. You build with the pieces that are available. Sure I'd rather get Luck and build this putrid offense instead, but it just might not work out that way. Doesn't make it dumb, or a bad draft.

this needs to be a sticky on ever single draft topic

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Look, YTown, I know you have a hard on for RG3

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this needs to be a sticky on ever single draft topic

Here is what I am thinking after now knowing the order of the draft and having a better idea of team needs behind us. Due to the fact that we have sooooo many holes on this team, if H&H are not 100% sure on either RG3, Blackmon, Claiborne, Kalil or whoever is still on the board when we pick at #4, I am proposing us to trade down to a spot where we can pick up an additional 2nd and 3rd round pick this year (which would put us picking in the 10-12 range according to the NFL Draft Point Value Chart). That would give us 2 picks in each of the first 4 rounds…

1A – Trent Richardson, RB – Alabama
1B – Kendall Wright, WR – Baylor
2A – Ingram or Mercilus, DE – South Carolina/Illinois
2B – Top rated OL left of the board at either guard or tackle
3A – Sean Spence, OLB – Miami
3B – Cliff Harris, CB – Oregon
4A – Jarius Wright, WR – Arkansas
4B - ??? Blocking TE, FS, SS, OL….some sort of depth at one of those positions
5 – Jeff Demps, RB – Florida
6 – Case Keenum, QB – Houston
7 – Fastest player available for special teams use

This would give us two playmakers at offensive positions that we need (RB and WR) as well as filling three holes on the defensive side with potential starters. This also would upgrade our team speed in general which is an area where we lack big time! This also gives us a developmental QB in Keenum, who experienced a tremendous amount of success at the college level.

This draft does not take into account any free agency signings either.

Thoughts on this mock draft?????

If the Browns pick Trent Richardson with their first overall pick, I will throw my computer out the window and probably renounce my fanhood in this team.

Drafting a RB when you lack QB, WR, RT, and several other players on defense would be the worst possible move they could make.

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I agree we need "elite" talent...I have a philosophy that with a high first round pick, you have to get the best player available at a specific position. We have to start getting "the best" here and there to become competitive.

Vs.

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Due to the fact that we have sooooo many holes on this team...I am proposing us to trade down....2B – Top rated player left of the board at either guard or tackle...4B - ???….some sort of depth at one of those positions...7 – Fastest player available for special teams use

And that right there is the philosophical difference. Take "elite" talent. The BEST player at a certain position (even if that position isn't our #1 need)

Vs.

More picks but they are of the "best player left", "some sort of depth" or "fastest player left" variety.

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The problem of drafting an RT that high is that it's not worth it. He does not protect the QB's blindside. A RT wouldn't make as much impact on this team as a QB, WR, DE, or even CB would make. At the top of the draft, you go impact players, and an RT is just not that when you have a right-handed QB.

Regardless of whether most think a RT at #4 pick is too high, we need an elite RT to fix our problematic line. I feel the investment would be worth it in the long run.

In the long run we won't be able to pay both Thomas and Kalil the money they deserve.

If we do end up taking Claiborne with 1a (hopefully because the Luck option didn't pan out) then I'd have no problem going defense with 1b and 2.

Draft Claiborne, Mercilus and David - get play makers at all three levels of the defense.

RDE Mercilus
DT Rubin
DT Taylor
LDE Sheard

SLB Gocong
MLB DQ
WLB David

CB Haden
FS Adams
SS Ward
CB Claiborne

That to me looks like a strong crew.

Don't get me wrong, Claiborne isn't "the guy" I want. My order of preference is

1. Luck
2. Luck
3. Luck
4. Luck
5. Blackmon
6. Kalil or Claiborne

I'm just saying that option 6 isn't a "bad" option if we can't get Luck and Blackmon goes 2nd or 3rd (both of which are very possible at this point).

As for your mock I'd be fine with Claiborne at 1A and Mercilus at 1B. We desperately need a RDE opposite Sheard and starting quality 43 DE aren't going to last until the mid rounds. I like the Lavonte David pick as well, but I think he'll be available in the 3rd. I really think we need to come away with a starting caliber WR out of this off-season as well....and honestly there isn't much available at a 2nd round grade. So....I might be inclined to go WR at 1B (Kendall Wright or Mohamed Sanu. I don't like Alshon Jeffery at all...he's a big body possession type WR with low production....we need a speedster who can stretch the defense and be our #1 to slide Little/Cribbs et all down a spot). Then hope Mercilus falls to us in the 2nd. I've seen many mocks with him going in the 30's so it isn't completely impossible.

1A - Morris Claiborne - CB LSU
1B - Kendall Wright - WR Baylor or Mohamed Sanu - WR Rutgers
2 - Whitney Mercilus - DE Illinois
3 - Lavonte David - LB Nebraska

Then I'd love to take another flyer on either Jeff Fuller - WR Texas A&M or Ryan Broyles - WR Oklahoma in the 4th or 5th round. They both will fall due to injuries but have high round talent.

But again....that's option #6 for me

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We desperately need a RDE opposite Sheard

I know it's a pipe dream, but I am hoping we can somehow get our hands on Calais Campbell from the Cardinals. He is an unrestricted free agent and can probably play any position along the line a 4-3 defense. He's had 7, 6, then 8 sacks as defensive end in a 3-4.

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We desperately need a RDE opposite Sheard

I know it's a pipe dream, but I am hoping we can somehow get our hands on Calais Campbell from the Cardinals. He is an unrestricted free agent and can probably play any position along the line a 4-3 defense. He's had 7, 6, then 8 sacks as defensive end in a 3-4.

naw.. i'd rather draft a DE, and use Free Agency for the o-line..

We could address both, no?

Can someone please tell me why they think Blackmon is worth a top-five pick?

I don't think he is either, but I can tell you why people think we should take him. He is the best WR and we "need" a WR. And people saw him have success on TV so they have something tangible to hang on to.

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If the Browns pick Trent Richardson with their first overall pick, I will throw my computer out the window and probably renounce my fanhood in this team.

Drafting a RB when you lack QB, WR, RT, and several other players on defense would be the worst possible move they could make.

I dunno. I think Richardson is my 2nd best player in the draft. If we don't go RG3 (and I really don't know enough about the guy to decide whether we should pick him or not), he's the guy that I want. Especially if we don't re-sign Hillis. If we do sign Hillis, I still have no issue with the pick because our RBs have given me no reason to think that they can play a full season.

The only position that completely can change a team is the QB IMO. I definitely want him over Claiborne. And I just don't see us using that high of a pick on an O-Tackle that probably will be out of our budget range once his rookie contract is over.

I'm sure Claiborne is good, but we already picked our top-notch CB. I think Richardson will make just as much of a difference as another 1st round corner.

Someone said earlier, how many of the best RBs are on playoff teams. Well the two best corners in football aren't on playoff teams either. So I think it's a moot point. We need a DE more than a corner, and there isn't one there at #4 that's anywhere near as good as Richardson is a RB.

I get that this is a passing league, but when it comes down to who's the BEST PLAYER, Richardson is a better player as a RB than Blackmon is a WR.

1A) Richardson
1B) Wright or RT or DE
2) RT or Sanu or DE
(The most important thing is we address this RT situation with 1B or 2 or ACTUALLY ADDRESS IT in FA. No Pashos, St. Clair, Schaffers. A REAL solution)

I'm hoping in FA we offer a deal to Meachem or DeSean Jackson. Obviously our needs will change after FA for the later picks, but IMO Richardson definitely brings a lot to the table. I think he's gonna be as good as Tomilinson, and Ladanian Tomilinson was great. Richardson can do it all, and he'd give us a super star every down back for a good period of time.

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Don't get me wrong, Claiborne isn't "the guy" I want. My order of preference is

1. Luck
2. Luck
3. Luck
4. Luck
5. Blackmon
6. Kalil or Claiborne

We justa bout' got screwed with Indy dropping BOTH Polian's...

This is a clear-cut we're going to rebuild if u could ever imagine one...

I have OFFICIALLY dropped the Luck thing...And it BLOWS...Thanks Barkley...Indy...

And I am WAY WAY WAY far from thinking RGIII is any answer...Nor Flynn...

Merry Xmas McCoy...U just probably got another chance...

We're lookin' at Claiborne right now...And that's if Minny doesn't take em' or Auctions off RGIII...

Deep...NO WAY IN HELL Claiborne goes #2...Rams will not pass on Kalil or a weapon for Bradford over a CB...Not happening...

DnD, I never remotely suggested Claiborne would go two. I haven't talked about the Rams or what direction the teams above us will go. You're mistaken.

And every time I have talked about the Rams' pick, I have said they will go Kalil.

I am hoping that 1 of 3 things happens this off-season:

1) We somehow acquire Luck. (God knows we could use some luck for a change)
2) RG3
3) Tampa decides to cut ties with Freeman as their new coach takes over and we acquire him maybe with our 1st round Atlanta pick.

I do not want just any other QB at any cost. If we have to go through another year with McCoy, then that's what we'll have to do. I don't see us improving, and I don't see us getting a valid appraisal of our OL/WR corp with McCoy under Center, but maybe a miracle happens and he becomes competent.

Either that or we load up the run game again and use the Daboll approach, and limit McCoy to 100-150 yards passing and play it ultra safe.

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DnD, I never remotely suggested Claiborne would go two. I haven't talked about the Rams or what direction the teams above us will go. You're mistaken.

Then exactly what did u mean yesterday when u said "Claiborne won't be there when we pick at 4?"

Cause that's what u said...Numerous times...

Explain yourself Lucy...

Another misquote... I said he may not be. Never said it definitively.

St. Louis will pick Kalil. Minnesota will either draft Claiborne or trade the pick to a team trying to acquire RG3.

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DnD, I never remotely suggested Claiborne would go two. I haven't talked about the Rams or what direction the teams above us will go. You're mistaken.

And every time I have talked about the Rams' pick, I have said they will go Kalil.

since you didn't I will...

1. Colts - Andrew Luck - QB
2. Rams - Ryan Kalil - OT
3. Vikings - Justin Blackmon - WR
4. Browns - ?????

Now for the same argument that Blackmon is not worth a top 5, is the same reason they could trade the pick away to a team that wants RG3.

Rams have picked Smith 1st overall for and have Saffold, a high 2nd rounder....2 young OTs....I don't see them going OT again, no way...I didn't like both those guys and don't think they're good enough for where they were picked but the Rams will play it out with them....they need a CB or WR way more than OT...best move for them would be a downtrade...if they can't or don't want to, they'll pick Claiborne or Blackmon

Smith was drafted No. 2 overall and Saffold has been awful. It sounds like he will move inside to guard.

I wanted to add to my post:

If we do not get a QB either through free agency or in the 1st round, then I would look at Russel Wilson in the 3rd-4th. he had absolutely everything you could want in a QB .... except height. However, he is used to operating behind a massive OL at Wisconsin, and knows how to find throwing lanes, etc.

I think that he could be a "hidden gem" in the draft mix.

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I wanted to add to my post:

If we do not get a QB either through free agency or in the 1st round, then I would look at Russel Wilson in the 3rd-4th. he had absolutely everything you could want in a QB .... except height. However, he is used to operating behind a massive OL at Wisconsin, and knows how to find throwing lanes, etc.

I think that he could be a "hidden gem" in the draft mix.

is that the guy QBing now? He is doing his thing.

Wisconsin's QB? Yep. He's an impressive guy who just lacks height.

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DnD, I never remotely suggested Claiborne would go two. I haven't talked about the Rams or what direction the teams above us will go. You're mistaken.

And every time I have talked about the Rams' pick, I have said they will go Kalil.

since you didn't I will...

1. Colts - Andrew Luck - QB
2. Rams - Ryan Kalil - OT
3. Vikings - Justin Blackmon - WR
4. Browns - ?????

Now for the same argument that Blackmon is not worth a top 5, is the same reason they could trade the pick away to a team that wants RG3.

Isn't it more likely that the Vikings would take Claiborne than Blackmon?

I have a feeling the Vikings trade that pick, unfortunately, which would leave us in a pretty pickle. Taking a WR who probably isn't worth being taken in the top 5, a running back that while extremely talented cannot change the course of a franchise, or another corner and our offense continues to lack playmaking ability.

Why couldn't we have been 4 last year and 6 this year?

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Can someone please tell me why they think Blackmon is worth a top-five pick?

Agreed, I have Floyd rated higher (at least based on game film -- depends a bit on Floyd's off the field stuff).

In his defense, Blackmon does a great job getting open, but he doesn't have great speed or size. He's good going up for the ball, but I certainly wouldn't put him anywhere near the elite Johnson/Fitzgerald/Moss company there. He has drop issues (in a Braylon-esque manner of dropping the easy ones).

I severely question his drive during games, especially if he isn't getting targets early. Also the next time he decides to run block will probably be his first.

Let's face it.. we aren't getting Luck.. we're just not..

so what I'm hoping is that the Colts cut Manning, and he goes to one of the teams that are potential trade partners to trade up for RG3, ie Redskins + Dolphins..

Could u imagine Manning in a Redskins jersey? and he and his brother going at it twice a year.. CLASSIC stuff. lol.

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I don't think he is either, but I can tell you why people think we should take him. He is the best WR and we "need" a WR. And people saw him have success on TV so they have something tangible to hang on to.

That's pretty much my reason for wanting Blackmon.

I've watched a couple Okla. St. games and was impressed by him.

How's that for scientific?

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I don't think he is either, but I can tell you why people think we should take him. He is the best WR and we "need" a WR. And people saw him have success on TV so they have something tangible to hang on to.

That's pretty much my reason for wanting Blackmon. I've watched a couple Okla. St. games and was impressed by him.

How's that for scientific?

And just as accurate as everyone else's opinon!

I do like Monte Ball quite a bit.

I think that I might consider him in the 2nd if I were the Browns.

I thought it said he was a sohpmore. Is he gonna be draft eligible?

He's definitely a good player though.

So is that guy from South Carolina who got hurt this year. Latimer or whatever. Those two guys are gonna be solid NFL RBs i think. Just not in the draft.

EDIT: Just saw Ball is a junior. Wonder if he'll go to the draft. I definitely think he's pretty good

Montee Ball is a junior.

I think he's a 3rd-rounder, but he could go mid-late second.

he's definitely coming out. I think he's gonna be a solid pro.

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The problem of drafting an RT that high is that it's not worth it. He does not protect the QB's blindside. A RT wouldn't make as much impact on this team as a QB, WR, DE, or even CB would make. At the top of the draft, you go impact players, and an RT is just not that when you have a right-handed QB.

As sick as I am of watching our O-line's suck year after year after year after year, I wouldn't mind one freakin' bit if we spent most of our high picks on guys who can anchor their positions on the line for the next decade.

Yeah, that breaks most of the rules of drafting, but I don't see the Niners fans complaining about how Anthony Davis (11th overall selection) and Mike Iupati (17th overall selection) and Joe Staley (28th overall selection) are playing...

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he's definitely coming out. I think he's gonna be a solid pro.

Did he declare already? I'm just wondering if he might stay because he could be a top 1st rounder with another solid year.

What more could he do to raise his stock? Doesn't he have like 40 TD's?

If they aren't (and they are), 49er fans should be complaining about Anthony Davis. He sucks.

J/C,

Skimming threw the post I feel the need to remark on a re occurring thyme and that is comparing past drafts and talent pools to this years as far as position specific comparisons like Green to Blackmon. I don't think that you can make that comparison.

It is what it is and past drafts will have no baring on how things will shake out. The only thing that factors where a prospect will eventually land is the player pool of this years draft.

If we stay at 4, I think that we are going to end up with a pretty good player (from this years class) be that an OT, [Kalil] (not likely in a very week pool I can't see him droping out of the top 3) WR [Blackmon], CB Clayborn (he might be the best player at the position, but there is a very strong class of CB's behind him to be had later that could weigh heavily in the discussion with 2 more selections in the top 37), QB [RGIII] the riskiest choice imo or a RB [Richardson] < what are plans will be for Hillis should not be a detrmaning factor here. It should be because we feel that he is the BPA and decide not to entertain any trade offers instead.

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The problem of drafting an RT that high is that it's not worth it. He does not protect the QB's blindside. A RT wouldn't make as much impact on this team as a QB, WR, DE, or even CB would make. At the top of the draft, you go impact players, and an RT is just not that when you have a right-handed QB.

As sick as I am of watching our O-line's suck year after year after year after year, I wouldn't mind one freakin' bit if we spent most of our high picks on guys who can anchor their positions on the line for the next decade.

Yeah, that breaks most of the rules of drafting, but I don't see the Niners fans complaining about how Anthony Davis (11th overall selection) and Mike Iupati (17th overall selection) and Joe Staley (28th overall selection) are playing...

Here I am...Iupati and Davis were horrible picks....the SF OL is ok at RUN BLOCKING but they suck you know what at pass blocking....those guys can say thank you to the D and Gore...the SF OL is actuallly the epitome of a overrated OL because of high investment (the other would be STL's, but since they don't have a good D and are behind a lot, they suck and the SF OL is somehow labled "good")

Here's reality:

STL 55 sack allowed in 549 PAs = sack every 11th PA

SF 44 sacks allowed in 452 PAs = sack every 11th PA

STL has a 4.1yd AVG/rush...same as SF

and just for fun the Browns: 39 sack in 570 PAs = sack every 15.6th PA

So Toad...sorry to burst your bubble about the SF OL...watch them play...they are FAR from good....Staley making the PB is just another PB joke (and typical for high investment OL on good teams)....Kemoeatu is a PB replacement btw, lol

You want another funny tidbit? Bills have allowed fewest sacks this season...and they were supposed to be the worst OL around and have nobodies (at OT) playing there

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What more could he do to raise his stock? Doesn't he have like 40 TD's?

lol, good call. Just thinking that if he puts another year like that up, then he vaults up draft boards.

Don't forget that Dallas drafted Smith pretty high last April. He might eventually move over to LT, but that remains to be seen.