Breaking...
Reports of 20 dead; they are having 30 hostages coming out of a building in San Bernardino

Mental illness is a bitch.

multiple shooters; suspicious devices also found;

I hopefully am in error that there are 20 deceased. All reports but one that I see say at least 20 victims.
Suspicious devices in building. Bringing in robot.
3 shooters in camo with long rifles. don't know where they are presently. People still in offices.

so are people who make stupid posts..whats ur point? ah forget it i dont care what your response is

3 people decided to shoot up a place.

thats some mental illness right there.

Yep and I hope if they get apprehended they get the death penalty also.. or better yet the police ventilate them and save the tax payers money.

I'm pretty sure he's making fun of the point where bad behavior is constantly disregarded and swept under as "mental problems". I'm honestly kind of sick of it myself. It gives a bad name to mental problems without bringing the perpetrators actions up. Just because humans can act rational, doesn't mean they are rational beings.

animal capax rationis

Maybe you horses' patoots should get some facts first.

KABC reported that the shooting took place at Inland Regional Center, a facility for people with developmental disabilities.

FBI guy on the CNBC...

This appears to be a well planned, well orchestrated attack.
Possible explosive device or devices in the building.

ok

they left in a black SUV.

no mention if the suspects were admitted there or just planned the attack there.

what was that, fraud?

anyway, first off, i hope everybody who got hurt makes a full recovery. hopefully nobody dies.

second, if what 40 said is accurate....holy crap.

3 CONFIRMED dead.

I have seen many many leg wounds on others.

bruh did they get away? i'm not hearing anything about a pursuit in progress.


man oh man....

I never said that the suspects were admitted there or just found an easy target. I just think you bags of hammers should at least try to find some facts out before you start shooting off your fingers, and the irony that you're all typing snide comments about mental illness when a center for developmentally disabled is shot up.

Whereabouts Unknown. As many a 3 shooters at large.

Shelter in Place.

I think so Swish

you act as if we're making fun of disabled?

we simply commented that the mental illness excuse is getting old.

then you decided to shove the stick back up your butt. again. chill out.

up to 10 dead.

man...rest in piece guys. y'all didn't deserve this.

This was a Social Services building for the Disabled.
Worked to rehabilitate the Disabled.

This doesnt sound like a case on mental illness to me..we shall see..way to coordinated and usually mentally nuts dont have body armor..guess we will see

LA Times reports police used a robot to detonate a device in the building.

You have no idea of any motive. Seems to me you're one of the ones here with a stick somewhere unpleasant. Way to 'jump the gun'.

That's what he's getting at. However, we've seen this before, elaborate plans, mass killings, all swept under the rug because of a "mental issue". It's disingenuous and hurtful. Honestly, if people really want to help people with mental issues, then don't make this a mental illness issue. Most people with mental illnesses don't kill people like this.

neither do you, yet you decided to post the disabled building as if you readily assumed it was mental health.

practice what you preach and shut up.

In an attempt to be right, Erik works himself into a tizzy and misses the point.

BREAKING NEWS...

Scores of people are dead and wounded.
Up to 3 shooters at large.

Posters on DawgTalkers are fighting like Dawgs as we speak.

This has been a DawgTalkers Breaking News update.

fed's saying they might know the identity of one of the shooters.

anyway,

a bomb though? maybe this is some sort of revenge for a family member or something? you gotta be one pissed off group to shoot AND bomb a disabled building.

You should re-read the thread. Your other boys are the ones saying 'mental illness' in reference to the shooting.

I understood him quite well..would you feel better if i had said I dont think its mental illness its terrorists??

And when i have time can u show me any mass shooting case that was swept under the rug? or was defined as mental illness and wasnt??

Thanks..

Maybe that orange haired fella at the movie theater?

he doesn't mean swept under the rug in a sense that they got off, he means it just got chalked up to "dude is crazy, put him in jail" without all the additional labels.

and in that sense.

OKC bomber,
Columbine,
Colorado shooters(both)
Sandy Hook

and thats just off the top of my head.

Is like a disabled veterans building ? Am I way off thinking a military ?

He was legit diagnosed with schizophrenia.

i think just disabled in general.

Okay, thanks Swish

It's a state run center for people with autism and other similar developmental problems.

AH Ha! a cover up!

what if this was a break out?

like somebody got admitted and couldn't get out?

OJ did it.

The tower's was a controlled detonation.

and illuminati.

Swish,
Don't think so. Police scanner said that there was a victim(s)in the golf course across the street, 2 down in street and a few victims that needed removed from their cars.

jeez.....

Also, I am at work and had to leave for a while...
But the scanner ran a name of a possible suspect that they had a reason to run last week.

His name was pronounced Fa-yed. No last name.

yea the coverage is talking about possible ISIS.

and Fox news just jumped all over that.

social media is linking a bunch of stuff

everything from white nationalist,

to ISIS,

to black panthers.

and now somebody just posted the name sounded Hindu.

ugh.

Witness just told them one was a middle eastern male with long beard on Windsor towards Gilbert.

Another report of a possible subject arming a gun behind a mall.

This early into it, everything is speculation

Shooters reported wearing camo and face masks.
Possibly body armor.

yeah the more info that comes in this is no mental nut who wondered somewhere and decided to shoot it up.

I'm very curious to the background of the sick bastards who did this.

Yes, very early. It will be interesting to look back over our posts once the info is out there to see how accurate the reports were.

Prob end up being workplace violence.

What's next? He used the building's illegal gun store?

Am I missing a punch-line here?

All these reports with conflicting information and not one link to any of it?!

3 ticked off workers? I'd doubt that.

Sheriff just reported 14 dead!!! 14 more wounded.

Just watched the press conference on Fox News. They really know very little right now, or they're telling very little.

On a side note, do reporters as questions just to say they asked a question? I've been told there are no stupid questions, but I just heard a bunch of them.

if you are directly talking to me, I am at work listening on the police scanner when I can and noting a couple specific items. if anyone is interested www.radioreference.com and find the scanner in the top 50 live audio.

There is a lot more going on than I noted and I can't get back and update everything. And they are chasing many many different possibilities right now. They already have stopped a couple large SUV's, they investigated a Mexican with a backpack, they are looking a couple different places for a middle eastern man with a beard, one was in shorts, the other in baggy pants and a camo jacket.
I don't know for sure yet about the subject whose identity they ran but they seemed very interested.

On the person that was loading the weapon behind the discount mall. They very quickly set up a perimeter, but before the police got there, the subject walked in a back door, out the front and then was running to an adjacent complex. that may have been a wild goose chase.

I was watching the interview on FOX also when the Sheriff reported 14 Dead, 14 wounded.

I can't stand this Shepard Smith, he is a Dink.

They're being facetious. Certainly someone of your intellectual superiority could recognize that. gj

He was being facetious to make a point. Getting ahead of the story to make fun of it. You guys are looking way too far into it.

As for your request:
Sandyhook
Aurora
Colombine

I really don't feel like looking any up. I hope that proves my point.

Obviously. I just thought it was ironic that they jumped on the 'mental illness' thing right away, probably without knowing it was a shooting at a developmentally disabled center.

Just to keep up with reports I've heard, they found a vehicle in Pasadena, but that has been determined as not being the shooters car.

Really? So you willfully missed the point? GJ, bud. you showed them!

I believe it would be the proper thing to do to focus on the actual facts as they come in and on the victims as well as their families before people become facetious and start to take sides.

To do otherwise I find to be in very poor taste.

I didn't miss the point at all. I just decided their point was foolish and dismissed it.

For an update, the police have stopped and shot up a black SUV. No further details.

They got one of them, laying dead in the street, suv is shot to heck!

No, you just missed the point lol

And another bag of hammers.

One in the back seat with a AK strapped to his chest.

Sending SWAT to another address.

Bomb threats called into 2 hospitals

That would be two suspects caught, one dead in the street and one you say is in the back seat. He may still be alive.

The third supposedly ran about 3 blocks to a church. Completely unconfirmed.

Every single person should be thankful for law enforcement on this day

All 3 suspects are now in custody according to ABC news!

PHEW!

Its amazing they found them.

I am thankful for them every day Bud, as I know you are.

It was suggested they got stuck in traffic with all the roadblocks and Calif traffic.

FOX reporting another suspect barricaded in a home nearby black SUV

Should say "person" rather than suspect

San Bernardino is like 40 minutes from where I live. The local news is crazy. Shootouts in the street. Nuts.

Stay safe cfrs!

I am not at risk. I was in San Bernardino this past Friday for lunch though.

When you are watching these cops shoot into cars, remember that they shot two Mexican women delivering newspapers when hunting Christopher Dorner.

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/...-197241021.html

Unfortunately, those things do happen.

glad they got them. any info on the suspects yet?

Does anyone not think that if the suspect is holed up on one of these houses he has the television on and watching all this movement?

One still on the loose.

Nothing reliable yet

Well ABC reported they did but it sure looks to me like they are still searching for somebody.

I saw 1 dead suspect. Maybe 2.

Mentally ill white hispanics.

Some guy on CNN just said it could be right wing fanatics.

That's unusual.

They were still looking as they were still getting reports. Amazon, wells Fargo - they had a perimeter set up at a parking deck for someone that matched a description of a suspect even though I thought they had 3

A fluid situation to say the least!

Fox is suggesting MUSLIMS!!!

Could be International Terrorism instead of Domestic.

CNN is reporting right wing fanatics, Fox News is suggesting international Islamic terrorism.. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

From what I've heard it was a disgruntled city employee.

That's really disgruntled when you convince your friends to join you.

Police report 2 dead at the scene of the shootout. 1 Male, 1 Female.
Both had assault rifles.

Yeah, it's rather sickening reading posts where people try and make snide jokes while so many have been killed and injured. And it's not just the dead or injured who are affected, it's their families as well.

These horrific killings have become so commonplace that many seem to overlook the tragic nature of the event and instead try and make jokes, try to prove their political views are correct, and concentrate on everything other than the victims.

There is too much hate in the world. That saddens me.

I agree. This sickness of mass shootings has spread like wildfire and the gun toting crowd are so scared to lose their penis extensions that they now make light of people being killed as if the stories were some how humorous. I have nothing against owning guns, hunting to feed your family or protecting your home with a gun but we really need to come together and figure out a way to stop this crap.

I know there were a few shootings when I was growing up, but never anything like this. I think much of it has to do with the decay of the family unit and the way kids get disciplined these days. Little Johnny would never even think about shooting up a school or a movie theater when Mom and Dad were beating his bottom!

We played with toy guns, BB guns, sling shots, etc.; we had violent cartoons, bullies, competitions with losers; we had exposure to real life not e-life, we played with other kids without supervision, we got into fights... NOBODY ever thought about doing things like this.

There has to be a way to put this genie back in the bottle or it will keep happening more frequently and will only grow in scale and sophistication.

What's an assault rifle?

They are AK47's but no one seems to want to say it.

From what people who heard the shooting have said, sounds like possible full auto too.

I can answer that, it's a sturmgewehr.

a rifle is a rifle.

people get caught up with the word "assault" too much.

An Ak with full auto is a military grade weapon. The chosen weapon of our enemies.

Nice post, dawg.

I won't pretend to have any answers, but I have been thinking about this topic for the past few years.

I wonder if technology plays a role? This news was all over the world as soon as it broke. These killings get so much attention. The perpetrators become household names and seemingly, many of them crave that attention. Does the intense coverage of these tragic events actually give ideas to other possible mass killers?

I don't know the answers......it's just another thing I think about in addition to the points you made. I have some other theories too, but man.........it's been a tough day.

cnn said that one might have been at the Christmas party. Next they said it was almost surely terrorism. As the police were chasing them, the subjects were throwing pipe bombs at them.
still at the apartment where the two left with the SUV

you can buy AK 47's legally, semi auto of course.

but it's really easy to mod it to full auto. they have youtube tutorials on it.

You are preaching to the choir here. I know, I know. But what would you expect the Press to call them when they Pee at the sight of a gun?

And if you're caught with one without your federal license, you'll spend a lot of time being the bell of Bubba's ball.

nah i feel you, it's manipulation for sure.

exactly, but me thinks these guys didn't care too much about that.

Will Bubba protect us from the terrorists?

I find it interesting that the FBI is taking the lead in this case when they do not take the lead in local or state issues.

Smells like International terrorism. Perhaps US citizens working for ISIS?

or, since it's yet another mass shooting, they feel the need to step in on these cases.

and if it's fully auto, thats a federal offense, especially if the disability building is a government building

By law they can not. Only National or interstate/multi state. It is a County building I think.

They can not take the lead. They can get updates and be involved though.

Fox just said that they heard the police ran a name and went to the house and the SUV was there. That guy was middle eastern from the scanner traffic I heard. I posted the name real early in the thread.

Of course you can just put a slide fire stock on it and that's completely legal.

I thought that name was cleared as not being involved.

So correct.

Too many don't understand that, imo.

If a federal crime is committed, they can take the lead.

I went to see my dad in the nursing home. When I got home, CNN or Fox said that they ran the name and went to his residence and the SUV was there.
Very fluid

That is my point, they have taken the lead in this case so it probably is more than just a domestic dispute or love triangle or workplace violence. It is beyond local or State. I think it points toward International Terrorism.

It mostly depends which laws were broken. The FBI leads domestic cases also.

if you need a federal license for fully auto weapons, and illegal automatic rifles are involved, it makes it a easy federal case.

NBC news released the name of the one shooter Sayed Farook.

MUSLIMS!!!

His father said he was a devoutly religious Muslim.

Probably belongs to Westboro Baptist.

And they wonder why they have an image problem.

damnit achmed.

Why would they pick San Berdardino though - a city of 200k (ish) people - when 60 or so miles to the west is LA with closer to 20 times that population, and even more considering the metro area. Just seems odd to me.

(general question, not specifically to you 40)

Sounds like he lived and worked there.

I agree. The whole situation is weird. I don't understand why they would pick that target.

Thanks. I knew it was going on but hadn't had the time at work to follow it. This thread was the first place I came to read up on what happened.

Whoa....now they're saying the female involved is a citizen of Qatar.

Vers, I don't know if the media gives them ideas or gives them this notion that they can have their 15 minutes, I really don't know...

What I do know is that the media fans the flames and they have gotten very good at it.. been flipping back and forth between Fox News, CNN, and MSNBC tonight... comparing coverage is my new hobby.... and they all float out their rumors but they do it in such a way that they know they can't be called on it.. "We are hearing rumors that.... " "People on the ground are saying they saw....." things which, if they turn out to be false, the media outlet can quickly say, well we reported it as a rumor and not as a fact.. but so far tonight I've heard "rumors" that the FBI is floating a Muslim sounding name out there... that some people "fear" that this could be domestic terrorism from a radical group... and about 3 or 4 others... and once it's out there, it's out there.. people talk about it, tweet about it, and some people begin to believe it, long before anything is actually KNOWN..

The one person I heard that I thought really hit home with me was a former FBI guy on Fox News who said something like, "This really doesn't fit any pattern we are familiar with so it would be impossible for me to speculate... on one hand their was more than one killer and it appeared very organized, which isn't like the lone killer who just snaps and is potentially mentally ill... on the other hand, the fact that there were multiple killers leads me to believe it wasn't a love triangle thing because that killer usually goes in along... and the killers walked into a building of over 600 people and walked right past a bunch of people to get to that specific conference room, which isn't like any Islamic style terrorist attack we've ever seen, they would have started shooting people immediately, plus they were wearing body armor so it appears they had every intention of living to fight another day... and lastly, it's a facility that provides services for the disabled, there are no domestic terror groups that we know of that would view that as an attractive target.... so for now, I'm stumped. I'll just have to wait and see with everybody else."

now it begs the question of how in the hell did they get all the equipment.

and whats even crazier, i dunno if people understand the extent of how filthy rich Qatar is.

that matters, because the connections those people have are nuts.

Did they actually confirm that the AK's were full auto? The semi auto versions aren't that hard to get, and anybody can make a pipe bomb.

at this point, it wouldn't matter.

if the confirmed this was a foreigner, feds are all over this one. they have to be.

as far as the weapons, they could've had a connect that lived here, or some of the states that still have the loop hole for gun shows, and simply watched the tutorials online. there's a bunch of different ways for them to get the weapons without anybody being accountable for it.

and yea, anybody could make a pipe bomb, but the extend of which they carried this out.....that requires some sort of training.

The director of CAIR in southern California just gave a statement on MSNBC (and possibly other networks). It was a very brief statement but unequivocally denounced what happened today and said that even though we do not yet know why it happened, all Americans need to stand together to condemn these kinds of acts...

Pretty passionate speech, well done.

i agree with him.


but i wish we didn't only stand together when something bad happens.

I agree. They didn't waste any time. They even brought out the brother in law of one of the suspects, but he looked very uncomfortable up there. I felt sorry for him.

I felt bad for him too.. you don't want to throw your relative under the bus (especially when you aren't even sure he was 100% guilty).. at the same time you can't appear to defend him in case it turns out he is guilty. He really didn't want to answer any questions.

I agree with him too bro. It just gets put out there early on, "Why don't THEY denounce these things".. so I figured as I watched it, I would make it known that they DID denounce these things.. quickly and decisively.

We always come together in tragedy.. for whatever reason, that's our nature.. then we go back to fighting with each other. Unfortunately, the tragedies seem to be getting closer and closer together. We always seem to be either coming out of one tragedy or entering into the next one.

So it was husband Syed Rizwan Farook and wife Tashfeen Malik, 28 and 27 respectively, he worked for the county for 5 years and he left the conference center after an argument and returned 10 to 30 minutes later with his wife. He went to Saudi Arabia earlier this year and returned with his new bride, they had a six month old child who they dropped off the day before with relatives.

He had just returned to work from paternity leave and his co-workers had just thrown them a baby shower. He was a restaurant inspector for the county. She was a pharmacist. Both were wearing tactical gear, had 3 pipe bombs and they were wearing go-pro cameras.

At least that's what I'm hearing this morning.

as far as the weapons, they could've had a connect that lived here, or some of the states that still have the loop hole for gun shows, and simply watched the tutorials online. there's a bunch of different ways for them to get the weapons without anybody being accountable for it.

Ok I hear this a lot..what loopholes at gun shows are you talking about..be specific please. When is the last one you have been to? I go to plenty and dont understand your positon.

Our own government did Fast and /Furious and those guns have been tracked back to murders in this country... nobody held accountable for that one. People in charge iof that operation shouldve been put in prison.

so saying gun-show loopholes I'd like you to explain what you mean not babble but what are the loopholes u speak of??

bunch of different ways for them to get the weapons without anybody being accountable for it.

That I agree with and I'm sure we will find out where they got them from and how.

So when will it be time to discuss the common denominator in all of these mentally ill terrorists "shootings"?

The gun show loop hole really doensn't just apply to gun shows but to any individual selling his own weapon to someone else that a back ground check is not required. Any new weapon from a gun dealer will come complete with the back ground check, just not the individual sale.

Inside the gun show the backround checks are performed outside well thats different..and just so I dont muddy my opinion i am against nics checks for individual face to face sales..

if someone who is selling wants to do the transaction through a gun dealer and make sure they are selling to someone who is legally allowed to own..I agree with.

But if I'm selling to a neighbor a relative ect..No no nics..now that isnt saying I'll sell to anyone and everyone, ive turned people away cause the spidy senses started tingling but it is slippery slope to have nics done on EVERY transaction plus i dont see the majority complying with it.

thanks for the response.

one other thing I usually just sell to people with their ccl but not always and the ones I don't try to exercise common sense.

Since the FBI processed 185K background checks on Black Friday alone, you have to assume gun ownership is still very popular in the good ol' USA.

I know..I tell people I interact with who are real left and obama lovers who thinks he does no wrong...That he is the greatest gun salesman the world has ever seen..and then wait for the hilarity to ensue.

One other thing..they media I'm watching keeps pushing this is work place violence..bull this Is terrorism done by a little hadji and his hadji bride.

he found his "soft" target and was wearing a gopro?? if so..terrorism...mooslim terrorism. And I hope the goat humper is finding out there are no virgins for him just a bunch of goats..same for his terrorist wife.

and a side note: screw you Daily News

Gun Show Background Checks State Laws

Known as the "gun show loophole," most states do not require background checks for firearms purchased at gun shows from private individuals -- federal law only requires licensed dealers to conduct checks.

Under the Gun Control Act of 1968, federal law clearly defined private sellers as anyone who sold no more than four firearms per year. But the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act lifted that restriction and loosely defined private sellers as people who do not rely on gun sales as the principal way of obtaining their livelihood.

Some states have opted to go further than federal law by requiring background checks at gun shows for any gun transaction, federal license or not. Five states, most recently Colorado and Connecticut, mandate universal background checks, an even more stringent standard that imposes background checks on almost all gun purchases, including over the Internet.

Even in states that do not require background checks of private vendors, the venue hosting the event may require it as a matter of policy. In other cases, private vendors may opt to have a third-party licensed dealer run a background check even though it may not be required by law.

Last Updated: August 2015
Gun Show Background Check LawsThere's a chart here showing which states don't require background checks.I'm not able to endorse the source of this info because I don't really know. If you find specific contradictory info please post it.

The following states regulate purchases by prohibiting private dealers from selling to individuals who do not have licenses/permits that they obtain after background checks are conducted: Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Massachusetts, Michigan, Nebraska, New Jersey, North Carolina.
SOURCE: Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence

I just heard the weapons used was purchased legally...and i don't think it was full auto?? havent saw that confirmed..people can confuse bump-firing with auto..if i'm wrong the full auto..my bad havent read it.

Guess the no gun zones worked here:/ I did catch a live interview with a witness who said when he heard the firing of guns..he pulled out his weapon got his family to safety..he got cut off quick and hadnt seen that interview since just a bunch of we need common sense gun laws..if anyone could tell me what law could you come up that wouldve stopped this I'm all ears.

Well when the right wing thing didn't work out last night it's time to spin again and this time the dial landed on work place violence. After all, it worked so well for Fort Hood.

AND? then what after what you highlighted--I'm not able to endorse the source of this info because I don't really know. If you find specific contradictory info please post it.

Also Ive been to hundreds of gun shows it is RARE to find someone selling inside without nics...outside well thats a different story..gun show loophole is a retarded talking point..just say you want ALL gun purchases done through nic's

Which is dumb and cant be enforced plus a ton of people wont comply.

That one makes my blood boil...allah akbar..work place violence://

General reply:

So are we still worried about the "militarization" of the police force? A lot of the equipment used to bring these shooters down (armored vehicles, long guns, etc) is the same equipment that the current Administration is trying to remove from departments.

I may bag on my Crown Vic cuz it runs on propane, but it saved my life last Christmas when I got in a chase with a stolen car. When he stopped I was halfway out of my car when I saw his backup lights come on. I had to decide in a split moment whether to try to jump clear, or (what I ended up doing) jump back in my tank of car as he tried to run me over. He jacked up my car, but I'm still here posting because of it. Having said that, if I was in San Bernadino yesterday, my Crown Vic alone wouldn't have cut it.

I do have another story I'll share later if y'all like, but for now, I'm not trying to politicize the issue. I'm just bringing up some food for thought because the general feeling is that Paris is coming stateside. We may have seen the beginnings of that yesterday. How much longer would that have gone on had law enforcement not had the equipment they did? Because I didn't see any Sovereign Citizens trying to bring them down... I didn't see any Open Carry group or citizen militia on the hunt. And that's ok, I'm not criticizing them for that. My point is that it's going to be the fuzz in the front trying to bring these bastards down. As a citizen, what do you want your police to have available to them when it all hits the fan.

I have to say I felt really bad for the man I heard FOX interview on my way home from work. His wife was originally locked down in an office near the initial shooting. Once she was safely escorted from that area and went home, only to end up locking herself in the closet because all that mess ended up going on outside her house! And this poor guy couldn't get to her because the scene was still active.

I can tell you that in Virginia, if you purchase at a gun show, you get a backround check.

I read a forum called digital underground..DU and there was people on their creaming their shorts when a witness gave a description of a white skinned...found out he is a muslim...the whole site deflated.

This country is going in crapper and its hard to watch it..

YEEEP..used to live there visit there often and you would be correct.

That's awesome, except Tulsa already posted links showing you exactly what I'm talking about.

That's great some states have BG checks, now if everybody else can get on board that'll be great.

general feeling is that Paris is coming stateside. IF they let in the kinds of people barry wants to..I have zero doubt it will happen...I'm surprised the hadji's havent gone after elementary schools..high school football games/sporting events ect...you know soft targets.

Yes, I'm still against the militarization of police.

If you want super decked out cops, than you might as well just let the military patrol the streets.

Just because THIS situation required it means what? This happens how often? No where near the amount to justify it.

If I gotta walk around looking more or less robocops all day in the name of "safety", then we truly never lived in a free society.

He did?? How about straight from ur grill what ur points are..not rocks crappy article..

Man people got a general feeling the rapture is gonna happen in their lifetime.

I don't see you flying to an island and drinking the kooload, though.

If I gotta walk around looking more or less robocops all day in the name of "safety", then we truly never lived in a free society.

But youre for stricter gun laws not more/better enforcement of current laws??

Swish?

You asked for specifics about the gun show loop hole. I did my best. I don't understand why you would ask the question if it's a retarded talking point.

That source also stated a lot of gun shows do background even though the state doesn't require it. I kind of thought that proved a lack of bias.

I'm pretty sure gun show loop holes and the abundance of gun stores outside of areas, but in close proximity, to gun law regions has been discussed as a major concern about availability.

With all due respect, most of the time this discussion sort of falls into, " make more guns available", "you can't control it anyway" or "keep mentally ill people from buying guns".

Again, with all due respect.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/19/news/guns-background-checks/

Just in case Erik cries about the source, there's a mainstream one right here.

If you up it private sale, BG checks. A lot of gun shows if you buy them used don't require it either.

You're welcome.

I'm not religious but I do feel the US is turning into a Godless country..and are reaping the results for such..end times talk is interesting to me

I said I'm only for restricting irresponsible gun owners.

Like if their kid shot up a place or accidentally shot themselves, the owners should lose heir right to own guns.

That's all I ever said. Besides closing obvious loopholes.

It sure is. I read an article yesterday that MSNBC reporters were tweeting that the PP clinic a mile away was safe and there was no shooting there. Calls for gun control before anyone knows any facts. Some news stations reporting 'right-wingers' before they had any facts. The New York Daily News paper's front cover is disparaging those who give 'thoughts and prayer' and say "God is not fixing this".

Right now, the fight is on to push 'work place violence' or 'islamic terror'. This kind of makes me wish I'd get a call from John Galt.

How are we turning into a godless country?

This nation has been godless the moment Europeans arrived.

People are just HOPING for the rapture. They don't want to believe they will die just like everyone else and want to go out in a blaze of glory.

bull..Every gun shiow ive been to in the last 5yrs you are not buying in the show without nics..outside different.

the article was not good..and supports what Ive said..they need to do a better job of enforcement of current laws.

What law can YOU SWISH..name that could slow down or stop this stuff..not an article how about your own words?? and isnt already on the books???

Is that a serious question/response

Youre smarter then this man..

And regardless, I was responding to you guys side convo.

I already said this isn't about guns, but some Muslims from a rich country that all of sudden decided to pop some Americans.

I'm ting to wrap my head around the thought process of a chick that comes from one of the richest nations in the world, where Arabs driving around with cheetahs in their ferraris(I want one, I got pics of that, btw) to listen to this guy and do this.

This smells like a group effort, thy need to crack down on the family and trace steps.

Yes, that's a serious response.

This idea that somehow we are godless? EVERYWHERE has been godless. We've been fighting since recorded history. We've raged wars, massacres, genocide, burned witches and segregated all in the name of God.

God isn't here. He bounced.

so you dont have an answer...and the media..people who are trying to get elected sure are making it a gun issue.

our own pres..during an interview about happened turned into a gun issue..you yourself commented on the gun thing? no? did I misread?

Come on swish.

Don't care about the source. If you can't see how biased thinkprogress is, that's your problem.

First problem with the article, "A background check is conducted only in store purchases" and "A background check is conducted only in store purchases" statements are incorrect.

This statement, "The killer, Dylann Roof, bought his .45-caliber Glock at a gun store in Charleston, where he would have been required to pass a background check. Though he had been arrested earlier this year for trespassing and drug possession, he apparently met the legal criteria." is also incorrect. He did pass the backround check. He shouldn't have, so the system failed in that instance. Apparently, his newer crimes were not yet in the system, so the lethargic pace of government blew that one.

It might be more useful if you were able to post an article stating which states do not make gun show purchasers undergo a backround check. As I've already said, they do it in VA.

Actually the article told you exactly what's up. If you choose not to believe it, all well.

I already told you what I would change as far as irresponsible gun owners.

As far as the loopholes? Simple, I'd make everybody register their guns, just like they do with their cars.

That way if weapons are on the street illegally, we know where he criminals got it from.

I registered my rifle and pistol when I bought them. Nobody came knocking on my door.

And when you can show me where cops are walking round super decked out like Robocop in the performance of routine duties, you and I will see much closer eye to eye. When you can show me where MRAP's are being used to pull people over for minor traffic violations, then I'll buy your premise.

But this isn't Mexico where the beat cop is standing on the corner with an uzi.

And the point of my post is that we ARE likely to see more of these incidents. Aren't you one of the guys who has posted about the increase of mass shootings?

If you read end times stuff its part of the plan to end times..and for you to say we arent turning into a godless country is funny to me..and what is coming from someone who posts like he leans atheist I see why u said what u did about God bouncing...Damn man some of the posts u make..makes me wonder what kind of life u live..you seem cryptic.

and I didnt say anything about everywhere else I said the US

you dont agree ok..this isnt on topic of the thread anyway...I'll gladly give u reasons on why I feel the way I do in pm or another thread.

I agree with Swish on militarization of the street cops..swat and such well militarize away.

You made a great point though DD

A Guide to Mass Shootings in America

Update, December 2: See our ongoing coverage of the mass shooting in San Bernardino here; we will update this database as more details emerge.

Editor's note, October 2, 2015: We have updated this database with the mass shooting at Umpqua Community College in Oregon, in which nine were murdered and nine others wounded. The previous update was in July, with the attack at a military center in Chattanooga, Tennessee, which came a month after the one at a historic black church in Charleston, South Carolina. The interactive map below and our downloadable database, first published in July 2012, have been expanded with 10 additional cases from 2013-2015.* Other public shooting attacks in that period—such as a rampage at Fort Hood, another in Isla Vista, California, another at a movie theater in Louisiana, and two in Colorado Springs, including an attack on a Planned Parenthood clinic—have not been added because there were fewer than four victims shot to death in each of those cases. For more about that distinction and its limitations, see this piece and this piece.


IT IS PERHAPS TOO EASY to forget how many times this has happened. The horrific massacre at a movie theater in Aurora, Colorado, in July 2012, another at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin that August, another at a manufacturer in Minneapolis that September—and then the unthinkable nightmare at a Connecticut elementary school that December—were some of the latest in an epidemic of such gun violence over the last three decades. Since 1982, there have been at least 72 public mass shootings across the country, with the killings unfolding in 31 states from Massachusetts to Hawaii. Thirty-five of these mass shootings have occurred since 2006. Seven of them took place in 2012 alone, including Sandy Hook. A recent analysis of this database by researchers at Harvard University, further corroborated by a recent FBI study, determined that mass shootings have been on the rise.

We've gathered detailed data on more than three decades of cases and mapped them below, including information on the attackers' profiles, the types of weapons they used, and the number of victims they injured and killed. The following analysis covers our original dataset comprised of 62 cases from 1982-2012.

Weapons: Of the 143 guns possessed by the killers, more than three quarters were obtained legally. The arsenal included dozens of assault weapons and semi-automatic handguns with high-capacity magazines. (See charts below.) Just as a perpetrator used a .40-caliber Glock to slaughter students in Red Lake, Minnesota, in 2005, so too did the one in Aurora, along with an AR-15 assault rifle, when blasting away at his victims in a darkened movie theater. In Newtown, Connecticut, the attacker wielded a .223 Bushmaster semi-automatic assault rifle as he massacred 20 school children and six adults.

The perpetrators: More than half of the cases involved school or workplace shootings (12 and 20, respectively); the other 30 cases took place in locations including shopping malls, restaurants, and religious and government buildings. Forty-four of the killers were white males. Only one was a woman. (See Goleta, Calif., in 2006.) The average age of the killers was 35, though the youngest among them was a mere 11 years old. (See Jonesboro, Ark., in 1998.) A majority were mentally troubled—and many displayed signs of mental health problems before setting out to kill. Explore the map for further details—we do not consider it to be all-inclusive, but based on the criteria we used, we believe that we've produced the most comprehensive rundown available on this particular type of violence. (Mass shootings represent only a sliver of America's overall gun violence.) For the stories of the 151 shooting rampage victims of 2012, click here, and for our groundbreaking investigation into the economic costs of the nation's gun violence, including mass shootings, click here.

but that article wasn't from thinkprogress, it's CNN.

lemme, guess; they're biased, as well?

and Virginia?

Virginia law does not require background checks for gun purchases from unlicensed dealers or private sellers. Gov. Terry McAuliffe (D) tried to change that, but his proposal was rejected by the Republican-controlled Virginia legislature.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/vir...40f8_story.html

so they must have changed this law last week or something.

here's west virginia:

West Virginia does not:

Require a background check prior to the transfer of a firearm between unlicensed individuals;
Require firearms dealers to obtain a state license;
Regulate the transfer or possession of assault weapons, 50 caliber rifles, or large capacity ammunition magazines;
Require gun owners to obtain a license, register their firearms, or report lost or stolen firearms;
Require reporting of mental health records to the NICS database;
Limit the number of firearms that may be purchased at one time;
Impose a waiting period before the sale of a firearm;
Regulate unsafe handguns (“junk guns” or “Saturday night specials”);
Significantly regulate ammunition;
Allow local governments to regulate firearms; or
Give local law enforcement discretion to deny a concealed handgun permit.

http://smartgunlaws.org/west-virginia-state-law-summary/

and then here's a bunch of other sources:

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/10/17689167-background-checks-for-guns-what-you-need-to-know
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety...e-laws-map.html
http://smartgunlaws.org/universal-gun-background-checks-policy-summary/

but go ahead and keep fighting the facts.

what the hell are you talking about? i just gave you an answer. you just don't like the response. no my problem.

I'd make everybody register their guns, just like they do with their cars.

You took an oath to the constitution and you have this line of thinking??

I registered my rifle and pistol when I bought them. Nobody came knocking on my door.

Registered with who??

I was responding to u and hadnt saw the links u JUST posted follow the bouncing ball man..

Some believe the answer is to hold gun companies responsible for their products.

it will be soon,

if people can make outlandish claims that paris is coming to america on a regular, then i can surely make this claim that we are gonna have beefed up cops on the streets soon for our protection.

Sorry, but unless we got IED's here in america, you got no need for a MRAP, you damn sure didn't need it yesterday.

people are calling for cops and such to be posted everywhere. schools, cinemas, wherever.

we're pandering to the fear mongering, the terrorist are winning.

Sorry, i know you want your hardcore gear so you can post selfies on snapchat, but i'm against you guys having that stuff in general.

and their idiots. That is nothing more then a ploy to enforce gun control.

Like you I've been to hundreds of gun shows. I can't say about anywhere else but in Oklahoma and your milage may vary, but here at gun shows an individual can pay for a table and sell his weapons without having to do a background check because he's not a dealer. They just have a sign saying private collection. There are always individual walking around with a rifle tossed over their shoulder and a for sale sign taped to the barrel.

Even though I think that Uncle Harry ought to be able to give you or sell you his gun without a check, even my eyebrows go up when I see this at gun shows. Now usually the private collection tables are antique lever guns and not typically what you would expect to raise an eyebrow but the guy walking around with his AR and anyone can walk up and buy it and this guy isn't interested in who's buying it, he's interested in how much he's selling it for. It's certainly a great way for felons to get guns easily. This should be fixed.

You are never going to stop felons from getting guns because well..they are felons are willing to break the law to acheive their end means.

Ive never been to Oklahoma so I cant comment there..but have been in Ohio, Virginia, and Cali...and didnt see any transaction done INSIDE without nics.

SWISH Where di you register you guns?? Id like to know that seeing you live in Ohio..

I don't think they're idiots. I think they're willing to consider anything.

I think gun control is the issue and there's no ploy involved.

The issue with gun control discussion is absolutes when discussing. I'm for some form of control, but that doesn't mean anything other than figure out a strategy.

It's also my opinion, and I'm willing to see evidence to disprove it, that the number of shootings have increased with the increasing power of the NRA.

I understand that opinion is really sore with NRA members, but again I think it's important to discuss everything.

Man if your saying suing gun manufactures isnt the leftist's way of trying to implement gun control..We have nothing further to discuss..Your mind is made up and wont chang no matter the facts presented.

Good God yes the power of the NRA have caused more shootings..Do you hear yourself.

Ok I'm trying to be civil with u but i think i better not respond to u anymore..U sound off to me.

And a shill for the left...so we will never agree..have a good life Rock.

Swish u going to answer..I think your full of crap about this..but I would like to know where you "registered" them and prove me wrong...

So damn sad.. So very sad.

Indeed.

i bought my guns in oklahoma, i had to register them on post.

man i can't grab a bite to eat?

stop acting like some stalking ass ex girlfriend. that crap is annoying.

just a general question about registering guns.

How will registering a gun prevent things like this?

Man military base isnt quite what we was talking about..for someone who likes to hold people to a standard of facts..U laid a whopper of misdirection..I knew you didnt register anything in this state as a civi..and it was just a LITTLE disingenuous to suggest you bought your firearms and registered them and no one knocked on my door. To make a point on your stance.

another thing storing your weapons at the armory isnt quite registering..Just a place to hold them when u want to use them.

and I know u know that.

it doesnt..

Your premise above is just silly. It's just more the NRA is the boogyman rhetoric. What did the NRA have to do with the Paris attacks who have massively strict gun laws. I'm sure it was the NRA that caused Nidal Hasan to shoot up Fort Hood with a sidearm.

Rock I realize you're a major agenda poster and don't need the colored dots to play twister but you're better than this garbage.

it might be a small percentage, but people don't like paper trails, especially criminals.

and it goes back to my thing about irresponsible gun owners.

so let's say I own a gun. however, i had it just laying around, no in a safe or locked up. somebody breaks into my house, and takes my gun.

Well, if that gun is used in a crime, say, robbery or murder, i should be held somewhat responsible, as me being irresponsible lead to an illegal gun on the street used in a crime.

that will make people practice better gun safety. but right now, nobody will be held accountable.

Now arps, you're probably going "well, how often does that really happen?"

in the inner city, all the time.

Also, it ties into the background check loop hole, with making everybody DO BG's and register regardless on if it's a private sell or not. that will help the cops trace back to how they got the gun in the first place.

it could also possibly lead back to organized crime mobs, or in this case, maybe a terrorist group.

nobody did not on my door. i didn't try to deceive anybody, but if you got confused, that's on you. dunno what to tell you.

i had to register them for use on the range on base on my off time. we all do. if you're a single soldier, you can't even have them in your barracks, you gotta lock them up in the arms room.

If i could register my weapons when i had them here in ohio, i would. you trying to call me out was a bunch of Bull btw, as i already know the law. i practice what i preach.

'They came prepared,' Couple kills 14 in mass shooting

http://news.yahoo.com/14-dead-17-wounded-california-081816288.html

I'm sure just about everybody knows now, but a man and woman did this. Crazy. The woman looks to be his wife, but they're not positive.

Yes, I know the article was from CNN. That's why there's a cnn.com in the link, and yes, CNN is biased. They have moved farther and farther left since the clintons were in the white house. Thinkprogress is extreme left. If you can see the bias, you should work on that.

So, you're telling me that VA does not require backround checks for person to person sales, like if I sold a gun to my best friend. I already knew that. The article you posted from money.cnn.com states that backround checks are not required at gun shows. That statement is a falsehood.



It looks more to me that they use the name 'gun show loophole' untruthfully, as the article states, "Virginia law does not require background checks for gun purchases from unlicensed dealers or private sellers. Gov. Terry McAuliffe (D) tried to change that, but his proposal was rejected by the Republican-controlled Virginia legislature." All gun sellers in VA gun shows are licensed dealers. You have to be licensed to sell there. A gun show and a private seller are two different things. If someone is selling guns illegally, they are selling illegally. You'd have as much chance as making illegal drug dealers get a license.



What facts?
Require a background check prior to the transfer of a firearm between unlicensed individuals - Most states don't make these people do backround checks. I wouldn't sell a gun to someone I didn't know well, would you?

Require firearms dealers to obtain a state license - Click on the link for 'license' on the sourced page. According to that link, "West Virginia has no law requiring gun owners or purchasers to obtain a license." They are stating two different things and misleading.

Regulate the transfer or possession of assault weapons, 50 caliber rifles, or large capacity ammunition magazines - What's an assault weapon again? A hunting rifle with different grips? How many mass shooting have there been with 50 cals? They tend to be unwieldy. You also realize that these shooters tend to carry extra mags, no matter the capacity?

Require gun owners to obtain a license, register their firearms, or report lost or stolen firearms - When you get a backround check, they know you bought a firearm and what it's serial is. That sounds like a registration to me. It also implies a license. Only a moron doesn't report a lost or stolen firearm.

Require reporting of mental health records to the NICS database - See HIPPA law.

Limit the number of firearms that may be purchased at one time - Once again, there is a backround check. If the police feel they need to follow up large purchases, they should.

Impose a waiting period before the sale of a firearm - Because someone in fear of their life should have to wait a week, right?

Regulate unsafe handguns - Would you buy an unsafe handgun? I wouldn't even buy from a private dealer until I saw it fired. This one is just odd to even have in a list. BTW, I consider 'unsafe' as meaning the gun has a problem, and might blow up in my hand. They're all unsafe if you're on the barrel end.

Significantly regulate ammunition - Really? This is the liberal dream, to make the ammo illegal because they can't fight the 2nd. If you follow the link, it says:
•Require a license for the sale of ammunition;
•Require sellers of ammunition to maintain a record of the purchasers;
•Require a license to purchase or possess ammunition; or
•Prohibit the possession, transfer or use of armor-piercing or other unreasonably dangerous ammunition, although the federal prohibition on certain kinds of armor-piercing ammunition applies.
That is what they mean by 'regulate ammo'.

Allow local governments to regulate firearms - The state does.

Allow local governments to regulate firearms - The state does.

I like your smartgunlaw.org site. If you can't see the bias in that one, you're just blind. Their biggest complaint in your last link is that private gun sales are not tracked. Let me ask you, as you are a dope smoker, when will your dealer get a license so his sales to you are tracked, or is that the government's business? If you are making private sales to someone that couldn't pass a backround check, like a felon, you are committing a crime, or you're willfully making an illegal sale.

Well, if that gun is used in a crime, say, robbery or murder, i should be held somewhat responsible, as me being irresponsible lead to an illegal gun on the street used in a crime

People get held liable for this all the time..especially if they didnt report it stolen

Also, it ties into the background check loop hole, with making everybody DO BG's and register regardless on if it's a private sell or not. that will help the cops trace back to how they got the gun in the first place.


They already have a very effective way of tracing them..you need to really educate yourself on gun laws you sound ignorant/uninformed on the subject.

good luck he isnt knowledgeable on the subject..he sounds like a lefty websites talking points.

i knew it. everything was biased. CNN is biased, NBC is biased, the .org sites are biased. my mom is biased, your dog is biased.

and they sell to people they don't know ALL THE DAMN TIME ERIK.

man, open your eyes.

there's a lot of illegal firearms on the street that cops can't trace back to.

but you already knew that, right? mr. knowledgable.

at this point, you and Erik don't even know what you're arguing. I proved my point about the BG checks, you guys are just stubborn.

I'm going back to the topic at hand now, and trying to figure out motive as to why some rich woman from qatar would bounce and do this.

feel free circle jerking with your boy.

ok and? lets say they make everyone do nics/ register how in the hell does that stop anyone from killing?? All it does is pile on responsible gun owners

Oh jesus man ..but you already knew that, right? mr. knowledgable

yeah your right I'm a dumbf...I'm not the one putting out straight up lies you are with your registering bull you spewed.

Much smarter then u on the subject thats for sure..You intimidated by people smarter then you??

I educate myself from multiple view points on a lot of stuff..grow up or stay in your bubble. I dont really care.

Take your jab and stuff it MR. uninformed.

intimidated by what?

man, if i get intimidated by a faceless poster on a message board, i need to reevaluate my life choices.

I dont really get it though. If my gun is in my house and someone breaks in, steals it, then uses it in a crime I should be responsible? What? That makes no sense.

And you think those sites aren't biased? I'd like to know. Quite simply, if you buy from a licensed dealer, you get a backround check. If you buy privately, you don't. They will be able to regulate private sales to legal users as much as they can gun runners to criminals.

These idiots that have never had a criminal history that plan out a shooting, like the lovely couple yesterday, are going to be able to get weapons legally, always. All they have to do is plan for their 'waiting time' if there is one, buy ammo slowly, or buy illegally.

i need to reevaluate my life choices.

Well you got one thing right smart guy.

In some states yes..especially if not reported. Well alot of things dont make sense with gun laws

was that the best you could come up with? "smart guy?"

lol.

and once again you missed the entire point in your journey to prove whatever it is you're trying to prove.

i never once said this will prevent this, i'm talking general gun control. i've stated over and over that people are gonna do this regardless on other threads.

i've also stated in THIS thread that this isn't about guns, it's about the people that did it, and what their motives are.

i simply responded to your side convo, and of course you and your sidekick, Robin, ran with it.

dont like intimidated..ok how about don't like..cant handle..take your choice..and jab away.

can't handle what?

lol, man what are you talking about? you sound like Versatile Dog right now.

If it's not going to stop it, then why have gun control? You make no sense. Are you finally saying that gun control laws only affect those that buy legally?

Ok you are what I thought you are..guess you and i have no more to discuss.

Tried to do right by you and treat u civil and you repay that by poking fun of or taking a crack at my intelligence/knowledge..If your smart then I must be freaking Einstein.


Take ur jabs and stick it..

what i've been talking about is irresponsible gun ownership.

you're acting like it's pulling teeth to have parents prevent their kids from grabbing their guns. those sort of situations. i having it locked up in a safe when they're not home just in case of home burglary.

thats all i asked. i threw out the suggestion about registering it, but it doesn't matter.

i make perfect sense. you're getting hung up on the wrong things, and not paying attention to what i'm saying.

as usual.

lol, what?

i never once poked fun at your knowledge. i'm poking fun at your senseless dribbling about...well, nothing.

last i checked, you're the one saying i wasn't knowledgable on the situation.

seems to me you can dish it but can't take it.

i brush my shoulders off with any jab.

it seems like nobody wants to talk about the topic, though.

nobody wants to discuss motive of the shooters, or anything of this nature.

No I like debate with out lies which you did..at the least was dishonest..but when someone tries to teach someone who obviously is ignorant on the subject and get cracks about their/knowlege on the topic.

Calling you ignorant isnt a jab..just meant you sound unknowledgeable on the subject..and bubba I can take it back just fine..just not from a liar or someone who is spreading bad information. And then makes cracks about their knowledge.

Like I said we have no more to discuss on this issue.

I'd love to talk about their motives. We will never really know, as they're both dead. Seeing as they were well prepared, had sought out weapons and manufactured explosives, this was well planned. This is not an attack by mentally ill people, as mental illness is usually not contagious except in extremist groups.

When you come up with a way to tell who is an irresponsible gun owner before they go out and shoot a bunch of people, let me know. You were talking gun laws, and posted articles on gun laws. If you want to talk about this shooting in general, practice what you preach.

The various media outlets, certain politicians, and law enforcement agencies are pushing the gun control canard to avoid calling this what it pretty obviously is ... home-grown jihad.

I read that the male shooter had recently traveled to the middle east. Not sure if that relevant. The article also said that they were wearing "assault clothing" (Im not even sure what that is)

He went to Saudi Arabia and brought back his wife. They're not sure of his other activities in his month there.

Swish and I have been round and round on this issue many times, but since you are new to the melee...

I'm against the militarization of cops too, but my definition of what militarization is much more specific. I also draw the distinction between the need/availability of certain equipment, and the how/when that equipment is used.

Yesterday absolutely showed the NEED for such equipment. Now how and when that equipment is used, I certainly think is a good discussion to have and an area on the subject where we could be closer in our viewpoints. For example: there has been a significant increase in the use of SWAT units for warrants service. I think it's totally appropriate to review the circumstances when they are deployed. I think there is a big difference between serving a warrant on a known drug dealer with past convictions for violent crimes vs. a guy who missed court and has a past charge for resisting arrest.

When it comes to MRAPs, Swish is more scared of how they look then their actual function. An MRAP and the Brinks's armored truck have the EXACT same function: to protect the occupants. The only real difference is that an MRAP as he pointed out is designed to protect against IED's. Are we likely to get hit by an IED here? Probably not. But so what? A design to protect against a certain type of weapon system is defensive in nature. A swat team rolling up in an MRAP doesn't gain any more of an offensive capability than the Brink's truck gives them. All it does is provide additional protection from something not likely to happen.

It's the equivalent of them putting bullet proof glass in my Crown Vic, and claiming that it is a danger to the public. It doesn't make sense.

I'm going to close this post here because I know I'm starting to hijack the thread. But to give you an idea of my take on 'militarization'.. .if you have a problem with an MRAP or that I have an AR, then it stands to reason police departments should no longer hire veterans because 'militarization' is more than just weapons and equipment.

I don't lie.

but yea, we are done.

I understand completely..and agree with 100% of what you just said..not a thread derailleur at all.

Good stuff.


FBHO71

maybe i'm alone in this, but i don't trust Saudi's in general. i know it's a generalization, but i don't know if you guys are aware of the amount of crap they've done while soldiers when in iraq.

Wrong.

To say i'm more scared of their looks than their function is throwing mud. i know exactly what they're used for.

and you cops have been using your toys from the military to do everything from issue warrants to knocking down doors from drug bust of some low level drug dealers, hell, thats by your own admittance.

let's not play innocent. you guys love running around in ACU's, or those marine combat uniforms like you're playing soldier. we've all seen the videos.

need and want are two different things.

Right now, I don't trust many musilms at all, and it doesn't matter what their nationality is. I worked with a guy from Afghanistan, and he was a nut job. Back then, he only hated (and swore to kill on site) Russians. I don't know what happened to the guy. I just hope that muslims start to call out their own, and push the radical ones to become peaceful. This will never end until that happens.

those marine combat uniforms

Well he is a Marine

Did anyone listen to barry just now?? Why is it a nut shoots up some poor people at PP..and right away from them and media..TERRORISM.

This freaking mooslim terrorist commits a real act of terroism..and its pushed as welll..we dont know at this time if its work place violence or something else..

Did somebody hear the shooter mumble something about baby parts? Because that would totally clear everything up.:/

one other thing he said..the guns where purchased legally..wtf could you do that wouldve prevented this???

Yeah barry dont let no good crisis go to waste.

Yes, nothing new. If it doesn't match his agenda, it's downplayed.

Well, the Council on American-Islamic Relations went on TV last night and denounced this act of terrorism. I initially thought that was a good sign. What concerns me is that CAIR representatives rushed to speak to Farook's family members before law enforcement had a chance to.

My final take (guess) on what happened is this...

The leader and his wife are terrorists who put together everything they needed to hit a target and hit it hard.

He went to that party and something or someone ticked him off. Witnesses said he stormed out of the place extremely angry.

He goes back to his wife and tells her plan-A is off, we have a new target and we are gonna hit it now.

They were prepared, had what they needed, got dressed, locked and loaded, and did this evil deed.

CNN is saying this couple left their baby with Grandma and went on Jihad! Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik were committed Terrorists and were going to hit something very soon. I believe he got mad and changed it to this place.

Damn, I should have tuned into Al Jazeera TV last night instead of CNN.

i'll go with domestic terrorist.

but what makes you think they planned all along to hit anything? you know how easy it is to get that type of gear in a short amount of time?

Now officials are reporting that the couple's home was turned into a "bomb making factory". A neighbor said that they've been acting "really suspicious" the last few days, but she didn't want to report anything because she was afraid of being accused of racial profiling.

i guess we got too caught up with this story:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk...-united-states/

nobody is talking about this shooting. wonder why.

Lets say the are home-grown.....currently any legal US citizen can go out and purchase these weapons very easily. So even if these extremest plan to do acts of terrorism they are legally allowed to purchase the equipment/weapons to harm people

How do you propose to fix this?

you can't.

since the weapons is purchased legally, like all the other ones. We as americans just have to wait our turn to get shot.

I read that some of the firearms were purchased by a roommate or someone else, legally, and used by the shooters. I've yet to confirm there was a third party involved, the details of this psycho attack are very slim. With the shooters names, sound Muslim for sure. Terrorist attack, or since they were citizens, domestic terror I'd assume the label would be.

Yet another sad event while Obama continues to preach gun control, no terrorist risk/threat and the rest of his crap.

We need a real leader.

here you guys go with this "it's obama" crap again.

Dawg...if you have a pistol on you right now, i can still run up on you and pop you before you even reach for it.

having a gun doesn't protect you. yes, these losers go after soft targets, but the individual crimes that go on every half an hour, some people had guns on them and still got popped before firing a shot.

why? because having a gun does what if you aren't aware of your surroundings?

you can have a gun in the car with you. if you're stopped at a light, i can pop you before you even saw it happening. it happens everyday.

stop blaming obama for us as individual americans acting dumb as hell.

If there is no gun control at the government level to limit these weapons to the normal population. How do you plan to prevent these incidents in the future?

dont beat around the bush...spit it out

and this is the thing. we as americans can run for office.

if you think you can do a better job, be a politician. or do SOMETHING.

sorry bro, but people complain about leadership and don't even know what being a leader means, or can't lead themselves.

"WE NEED A LEADER!!! no me, though, i dunno how to lead. but we need somebody!!!"

I'm not, i genuinely have no idea why.

I have an idea but its not PC, and I don't feel like any deep arguments today

That's BS. If the CAIR really wanted to do something about Islamic extremists they'd be headed to Syria and Iraq to fight ISIS right now. And those that can't go to fight, well they would be turning in those showing support and sympathy to the terrorist groups like Isis.

But instead they all come here to live free and to get away from their own dumpster fires and expect the U.S. to send our troops to fight their wars. Talking heads from CAIR needs to stop and real action from CAIR needs to begin.

I agree you can't. And multi-victim shooting incidents are becoming an every day happening.

Before I get back to work; there are a couple of things that I have not seen addressed or I missed.

-They said on the scanner that they ran his name about a week ago and nothing came up on any "list", but they definitely knew something about him or had some intel on him.

-there were reports from witnesses who said they saw 3 with long rifles. Is the third subject the one who ran and was captured or is he/she still missing?

-Neighbors said that the couple had recently moved in the apartment and were receiving lots of packages and working in the garage well into the night. The neighbor said that there would be 3 or 4 people hanging out in the garage.

All weapons MFG's want war and chaos. It works for their bottom lines. It's all about greed. The NRA does their bidding for them like an anonymous robot thinking they are doing all American's a favor that allows anyone in the U.S. to get their hands on an assault rifle and ammo.

It's only going to get worse until we all wise up to the real cause.....GREED.

Wow, I didn't expect that coming from you.

Shame on the neighbor for not calling it into the authorities for a quick look see.

and then it'd be racial profiling, and a huge payday.

it's a lose/lose.

J/C

As an FYI, CAIR is part of the Muslim Brotherhood...so there is that.

A young girl walking along a mountain path to her grandmother's house heard a rustle at her feet. Looking down, she saw a snake, but before she could react, the snake spoke to her.

"I am about to die," he said. "It's too cold for me up here, and I am freezing. There is no food in these mountains, and I am starving. Please put me under your coat and take me with you."

"No," the girl replied. "I know your kind. You are a rattlesnake. And if I pick you up, you will bite me and your bite is poisonous."

"No, no," the snake said. "If you help me, you will be my best friend. I will treat you differently."

The young girl sat down on a rock for a moment to rest and think things over. She looked at the beautiful markings on the snake and she had to admit he was the most beautiful snake she had ever seen.

Suddenly, she said, "I believe you. I will save you. All living things deserve to be treated with kindness."

She then reached over, put the snake gently under her coat and continued toward her grandmother's house.

Within a moment, she felt a sharp pain in her side. The snake had bitten her!

"How could you do this to me?" she cried. "You promised that you would not bite me, and I trusted you!"

"You knew what I was when you picked me up," he hissed as he slithered away.

meh, its not uncommon for me to have 3 or 4 friends over working in the garage having a beer or two. Nothing out of the ordinary, I bet it happens all across the country.

Bingo Buddy!

Each and every one of the Terrorist's guns were legally purchased and REGISTERED!

Once again the Bleeding Hearts offer solutions that only punish the law abiding citizens!

everybody is a law abiding citizen.

until they all of a sudden, aren't.

CBS news just said a source is saying the suspects were viewing ISIS propaganda on the web.

no surprise there

You have nothing to hide then right? Would you rather see more dead in mass shootings or have your feathers ruffled while pounding beers in the garage?

be realistic. without a warrant, they wasn't gonna find anything anyway.

and then on top of the shooting, they maybe would've waited until after their big pay day for racial profiling.

Erik, what i tell you.

Them Saudi's ain't......forgot can't cuss on the boards.

The Police can not confront you inside your garage without a search warrant. They can not act on the word of a squealer rat neighbor who can be arrested themselves for filing a false report and can be sued by you in civil court.

thats what i was trying to tell him.

imagine what weapons and gear they could've got with free money to spend.

And once again the bleeding hearts and the cold dead hands are those of the law abiding citizens found dead at the scene.

Well I was trying to imply that there would be thousands of complaints a day if you went and checked on everyone who has a couple friends hangout in their garage.

Yes, and guess who's squealing rat busy body butt they would practice Jihad on first.

Apparently this was a terrorist cell Law Enforcement is currently taking out.

10,000+ rounds of ammo.
18 Bombs completed.
Bomb factory in the their house.
Schnikees!

In My Humble Opinion...

What we Americans have got to learn to do when attacked by terrorists is to rush them as a group. They are killing you anyway, why not risk dying by having the group rush and tear the terrorists to pieces. They aren't going to kill any more people than they would have anyway and you might end up saving lives.

There are many agenda posters so I'm ok with that. I also said that I understand mentioning the NRA is a sore area. Maybe I didn't say it right, but all I mean is if you check the stats the number of gun sprees has increased within the time that the NRA gained strength.

I don't mean it's a bogey man, I don't think it should be closed down, but I do think there's a correlation.

the problem with that line of thinking is that something like this can only be learned if it was happening on a regular basis.

mass shootings have gone up, but this isn't a regular thing. most people will never encounter something like this in their lives.

unless of course we all relocate to the middle east.

Yet.

The number of gun sprees has gone up since Modell moved the Browns.

i don't think it will be.

i really feel the natural order of things will level this out, like everything else.

Using at least 4 people killed as a qualifier, mass shootings occur almost daily in this country.

yet none get talked about unless its

A. a muslim
B. racial
C: suburbia getting popped.

which doesn't happen as often as everything else in between.


the coverage has already exceeded the PP shooting by a long shot.

...one of the most underreported segments is black on black killing. That usually gets buried in the back pages.

Hmm..wonder why that is...

same as it ever was.
I have my theories as to why, but they should be posted in a different thread.

Clem if u ever decide to post your reasons I'd like to see what they are..I THINK I have an idea..but you do surprise me sometimes..

Start the Thread Clem! If the thread is yours I think people would be more serious and respectful.

I doubt it but would like to read it anyway.

Yeah, riiiight.

Did you forget where we are?




Maybe some day. Maybe even some day soon. Right now, I'm checking out. Work calls, and every Dawg needs to earn his kibble, know what I mean?

I did not know that there is a mass shooting tracker. To be defined as a mass shooting incident there needs to be at least 4 injured or killed.

The San Bernardino shooting is America's 352nd mass shooting in the 336 days of 2015





Andy Kiersz and Brett LoGiurato

Dec. 2, 2015, 5:43 PM


There have been more mass shootings in the US than days in 2015.

A Reddit-based Mass Shooting Tracker keeps count of incidents in which at least four people are killed or injured by gunshots, based on media reports.

Including the shooting in San Bernardino, California, on Wednesday, there have been a total of 352 mass shootings in the US this year, according to the Mass Shooting Tracker. In the 336 days that have passed so far in 2015, there was at least one mass shooting on 208 of those days: 62% of days in 2015 had at least one mass shooting. On 81 days, there were at least two separate mass-shooting incidents.

The Washington Post produced a devastating calendar using the tracker's counts, showing the enormous number of shootings that have taken place this year.

This chart shows the cumulative count in the US over the course of 2015:

cumulative mass shootings 2015
Business Insider/Andy Kiersz, data from Mass Shooting Tracker


Wednesday's shooting in California has left at least 14 dead and at least 14 more injured, police said. The incident came just five days after another high-profile shooting — at a Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado Springs, Colorado, which left three people dead and injured nine more.

US President Barack Obama has sounded increasingly exasperated in the wake of recent mass shootings, saying after last week's incident at a Colorado Planned Parenthood that the US is "not normal" when it comes to gun violence.

"This is not normal. We can't let it become normal. If we truly care about this — if we're going to offer up our thoughts and prayers again, for God knows how many times, with a truly clean conscience — then we have to do something about the easy accessibility of weapons of war on our streets to people who have no business wielding them. Period. Enough is enough," he said.

There were 32 mass shootings in November, according to the tracker. Wednesday's shooting in California constituted the first mass shooting of this month.

Hey North..do you happen to have any data on which states the mass shootings occur the most frequent and how strict their gun laws are?

If not I understand.

I am all for getting together our Conservative Legislators and the NRA to come up with a plan to solve the people problems we have in this Nation.

Perhaps they will find a common sense way to lower shootings and gun violence.

No wild eyed Libs tho. They always tend to make things worse.

I am all for getting together our Conservative Legislators and the NRA to come up with a plan to solve the people problems we have in this Nation.

Unless they have a way of implementing a complete culture over haul..idk what they could come up with to even make a dent..and thats coming from someone who was heavily invovled with the NRA..Did i mention before i hate Wayne Robert LaPierre, Jr.

Whatever. Debate it all you want. If I see what I think is suspicious I'm calling it in. I would expect any law abiding American citizen to do the same. We live in troubled times and it's time for everyone to step up and speak up if you see anything suspicious.

Glad your not my neighbor nothing suspicious about 4 people hanging out in a GARAGE..in front of a house in the middle of the night..MAYBE.

Sure let's not talk about the gun culture let's talk people problems. LOL OK

Are you responding to me?? because I responded with the very thing u just said

I think we all have a pretty good idea of what suspicious behavior is.

Idk man..judging by the standard you said u would call I'm not sure everyone has a good idea..but I get ur point.

Where's that Mrs. Kravitz pic when you need it?

Well here's her cat.

I do, its when some squealing rat is sneaking around your house, peaking in windows. Now that is suspicious!

that s funny..if I had friends over hanging out in the garage wasnt breaking any laws and the police showed up because a neighbor called and was suspicious of whats going on...I'd tell the police to get bent and shut the door..and ignore him till he left..Hopefully wouldnt get my dog shot in the process

I know you're liberal and we just, regardless, won't ever come to an agreement (which is 100% okay) but I will say one thing...

When/if that crap goes/would go down, I'd rather be carrying than not. Guns are protection for the non psychotic type of human beings. Taking away that protection increases the ease of what is already an easily (just by the sheer number of massacre/shootings) of the psychos.

And everytime Obama pushes for Syrians to flood in with no scans/checks, tells the American people there's no ISIS/terrorist threat and especially preaches his crap rhetoric on taking away all civilan guns and etc just infuriates me! I know to you it makes you happy and 'makes sense', it's infuriating to me and idiotic.

JMO, like I said we'll just never be able to agree on this topic, regardless of the extensive debating.

Lot of people must agree with you..because they just broke nics checks record over Thanksgiving/ black Friday.

Who said anything about sneaking around someones house?

According to your logic nobody should report anything suspicious these days. That's just being stupid and ignorant while shoving your head into the ground.

and according to your logic..people hanging out in the garage is suspicious behavior..and should report it

No, that's just being wise and self reliant while shoving my gun into it's holster.

I think that there are bigger issues with population growth over the past 50 years .... the 24/7 news cycle, and how they make celebrities out of mass killers ..... the way we devalue human life through barbaric practices like abortion ....... and the fact that this country has moved away from Christian morals to a "do whatever you want, and/or feels good" mentality, and also a problem where some people feel isolated from the world because of technology, that not only allows them to stay out of the world at large, in some ways it even encourages it.

The "way too many guns" idea is really not all that accurate anyway. I don't know the raw numbers of guns now vs 1980, but we can know the number of households with guns today, vs the time when I was a kid.

In 1974, 47% of US households had a gun. In 2014, that number was only 31%. http://www.norc.org/PDFs/GSS%20Reports/GSS_Trends%20in%20Gun%20Ownership_US_1972-2014.pdf

If the NRA is pushing some "put a gun in every home" agenda, I would say that they are losing that battle badly, and too many homes with guns is really not the problem.

I could believe that there are more guns in this country today. I have several friends who own collections that could arm a small army. Some they don't even have ammo for, as they are more collector pieces than anything to be fired. The people I know who own guns like that have gun safes, (usually bolted into the floor) that are there to keep people safe from their guns but also to keep someone from stealing their guns. I would think that many gun collectors do the same, if for no other reason than to protect their investments.


So, while I think that there are a lot of causes for such violence in today's world, blaming "more guns" is like blaming an increase in DUIs on us having too many cars.

The population thing is a good point and one I was going to make until I realized who I was replying to...

and I thought I read something recently there is an estimated 300 million or more guns in this country..the number isnt exact but by memory I think its close to what i read...so while 30% sounds low to me..there is a gun for every American and some..

So the ones who have them are hoarding like crazy or...that 30 some percent is not quite right.

I know i own more then a few..so maybe the small % are hoarders??

So what you are saying is you'd take the law into your own hands. Got it.

I have friends who have 40-50 (or more) guns each. I have a relative who has 4 or 5 gun safes. (that he had to move when they bought a new house, and that he was cursing at the time)

Umm..yeah I think I could make a gun store blush at my collection buuuut..its from yearrrssss of collecting..and other then cycling is a passionate hobby of mine.

Is that really what you got from that??

There are 117 million households, so 30% of that would be 35 million households with at least one gun. 300 million guns would equal 10 guns per household, on average. I would bet that this is probably accurate, as, like I said, I know people with 2 or 3 guns, and others with 50 or more. I would think that number is probably accurate.

I wonder how many gun safes there are in the US. That would probably tell you how many people own a significant number of guns.

got ya..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk...-and-then-some/

here it is I THINK is what I read..

Actually, because of the NRA and it's supporters, the LAW allows me to be self reliant. Another law abiding citizen who can protect himself and others from evil.
Don't you just hate that? Of course you do.

I like this post, but I had to just point out again that this is a solid and a great post. One that even both "sides" could likely agree upon.

Stop with the common sense, "ain't nobody want dat" haha

Bet there isn't enough safes to hold all the responsible law abiding gun owners's fire arms and ammo.

So the better question is how many firearms and how much ammo is just lying around unattended in america's homes.

So if a gun is in a closet on a shelf in a LOCKED house, the home owner is irresponsible because someone could break into the house and steal it? That is some flawed logic.

who cares?? its their right to do so in most states

And if they want their stuff stolen and then be responsible for what comes with that umm..

I havent read anything from him YET that doesnt sound flawed...of course he probably feels the same about me sooo...

If someone breaks into my house and steals a pack of rubbers and one leaks, do I have to raise their kid?

sounds that way...it is your fault

IDK but I have read about sperm donors who ended paying child support on their deposit to a clinic that the woman gave birth to..so eeeke

What are you doing with rubbers at your age?

How many times do I have to mention my Manly Manness?

Stretching them over his head

God speed everyone..stay safe..watch out for noisy neighbors:) and have great night.

And if that story is right, we have added 98 million guns between 2000 and the end of 2013. And they state out of that 98 million increase, 87 million guns were added between 2007 and 2013.

Prove a point...no one, no where is exempt from the the terror they aspire to create. I said it was coming to a city near you. Here it is!! Say what you will, the time is at hand to address this issue in this country.

Trouble is, we have an incompetent leader who has his head in the sand (or elsewhere) and has no guts. He will blame everything else and anyone else for this issue

And who was the Greatest Gun Salesman of 2007 to 2013?

Obama! His constant anti gun rhetoric made folks think they better buy before he shuts things down. The Conservatives and the NRA came to our rescue however.

And this is one of the only ways this sick a** problem and these sick a** people will ever be addressed.

Like I said earlier in this thread...barry is the GREATEST gun salesman of all time..have a good night..gotta go.

Gh

I am very thankful GOD has not bounced from my life. He is with me, in my heart, soul and life every minute of every day. God help the person who asks me to renounce my God because we will both die. I will be certain of it. I, however, will see Heaven.

Yup. To bad gun laws have nothing to do with this massacre of innocence. It has to do with radical islamic terrorism.

So sad to waste time talking about non issues when 14 people have lost their lives. Regardless of whether these scum murderers, despicable things got guns legally or not. They would have aquired them however they chose anyway. Wake the heck up! What is it going to take?

You want motive: eradicate all infidels. The guy was a devout Muslim...get it?

I highly doubt it was their "original target".

If you look at the amount of ammunition, pipe bombs and destruction that could have been caused, this wasn't what I believe was their intended use.

40 pretty much stated my theory on the matter......

They intended a better, higher body count target. Once the argument happened at his work, he reached his tipping point and changed the target location to his work.

I mean let's look at it. He went to the party. An argument ensued. He left mad and returned between 10 and 30 minutes later.

Now considering that, it just doesn't make sense to me that you would spend so much time building bombs, stockpiling ammo, acquiring the weapons, getting tactical gear, just to go off the deep end and shoot up a party at work after getting mad as some kind of plan.

No, I seriously believe that plan A was a much bigger target with far more intended victims. The argument at the party changed everything and he resorted to plan B in short order.

Yeah, ya know, just building bombs and booby trapping the home, happens all the time in American homes. You people are ridiculous!

Nnn

Maybe, maybe not. Your logic makes sense but do creatures such as this do much that makes sense? Booby trapping your home, making pipe bombs, gathering rounds of ammo and guns would suggest you are correct. Who knows. The message has been sent.

But, to some on this thread, this is just normal every day behavior. Gheeez!

man you guys aren't being realistic.

even 40 gets it. you need a search warrant to look at the place, and the cops weren't gonna find anything just popping by as they had no right to enter the house at that point.

it would've led to a massive lawsuit, and who knows how many more people would've gotten killed if they had free cash to by better stuff.

i expect extreme irrational posting come from people who support back yard militias.

i don't expect that from somebody responsible for teaching my kids.

There, I vented. After working all day and praying for the 14 families that lost loved ones, unable to imagine their pain, I still don't feel much better.

j/c

Interesting article - don't know if it's 100% true, but it says France suffered more casualties from mass shootings in 2015 than the U.S. has since 2009.

http://crimeresearch.org/2015/12/france-...y-508-to-424-2/

I very highly doubt this government will ever call this incident terrorism. But our gutless pres will have a tempered reaction, nothing like France's leadership. He will most likely visit the middle east and apologize for American failures having caused this....laughable.

that's very interesting bro.

it seems like i was sort of right? this isn't everywhere close to normal here in america.

just saying this out loud, but maybe it seems like it's happening all the time because it's always happening in different locations in the states.

it's really spread out.

you mean the same gutless french leader who is still taking in refugee's?

what a hypocrite to support somebody who goes against what your beliefs are on the situation.

we've been bombing the middle east, even obama, but all of a sudden people wanna ride the french PM's ball sack because what? he dropped a few bombs?

you guys got "action" and "effectiveness" as one in the same.

they aren't/

Great vent! Had me running behind the couch!

Remember, each person is upset and mad about what has happened and everyone has their own way of dealing with it.

America will handle this terrorism and life will continue for the rest of us. There are no easy answers in this war. We will watch and we will learn what is best to do and we will pray for those affected by this enemy attack.

It has been a long time since America was in a war where the enemy will hit the Homeland from time to time. We will harden and eventually have the leadership to wipe out this enemy.

No, I'm speaking of the leader who so fiercely has defended HIS people. No hypicrisy here. All I ever asked for is prudent decision making. Get your facts straight about me or please refrain from referencing me in the future young man.

Sad but probably true, these actions will give the likes of the Donald a boost in the polls.

If the cops would have been called to that house before the shooting, all they would have done is talk to the people and leave. If they got the willies over it, they might have started watching them, but that would be it.

I just heard on the radio (Michael Medved Show) that of the 350-something mass shootings (3 or more people) in 2015, more than 200 were in Chicago, home of the most stringent gun restrictions in America. How many more gangbanger "mass shootings" in LA, Detroit, Cleveland, NY, etc in 2015? The majority of the rest would be my guess. But instead of the narrative being about Islamist terrorism right here on our own soil, its about the predominance of "mass shootings" in the USA, as compared to the largely disarmed European countries. Its a total media distraction, like "hey look, a bunny!". They do NOT want this to be about a terrorist attack on domestic soil.

I can't help but mention this but ABC showed the leaders profile from a dating sight he was in.

He describes himself as a Liberal.

Interesting.

Obama will never label this a terrorist attack, it will ruin his record of no islamic terrorist attacks on American soil during his time in office.

I say just give the death sentence to any and all people convicted of Murder. Make the sentence mandatory so judges can't fudge it up. Shoot all appeals to a court right below the supreme court to speed things up. When appeals are up immediately execute.

The next thing I would do that no one will agree with is that if you commit an act of mass murder or terrorism that not only should you be executed but your family as well unless they can show they were trying to stop them through the authorities. This crap where everyone knows Uncle Joe is nuts but don't want to say anything and then he goes to town ... on the town ... needs to be criminal. When you make the penalties severe enough many of these nut cases will think twice and their families will be a lot more ready to turn them in to stop their own punishment for not caring.

The more important question is just how much is laying around and at the disposable of the U.s. Government.

So your solution to stop the mass murder of innocent people is to murder innocent people? Brilliant.

Uh, thank God we got us a Constitution.

Yep, because in the long run it will help more than it hurts. For instance, When the Jihadist promise to take care of the suicide bombers family after their death they will know that it's a lie if their family is on US soil.

A desperate parent hellbent on killing people is more likely to control himself if he knows his children will pay the price along with him.

Me personally, I could care less. But good policy is always to remove the incentives to do evil and to give incentives to look after the greater good of the people. Families who have that crazy person are more likely to force them to get the help they need than to ignore it. Chances are if they get that mental health help it will avert a worse case scenario. If you can prove the family had no clue or that they were trying to get the nutjob some help then they are off the hook. Combine that with denying mentally unstable people the right to own firearms and it become even more effective.

I'd rather do what is best for the country than to worry about a few crazy people and families to lazy to care about them.

You should move to North Korea. You'll fit right in.

Sorry Razor, I sense you are upset and I don't blame you but this is America and we don't do stuff like you suggest. We have laws against murder and against cruel and unusual punishment.

Most important of all, we ain't changing who we are over a bunch of dog faced dinks!

WOW..had a second to check in and this was the first post i got to see.

Why stop there Razor..what if mental health didnt work..what if its a defective gene in the family genome. Screw it lets just sterilize the whole family so it doesnt get handed down..and flog them on national TV. while making them sing the national anthem

I hope your just having a moment come back reread what you wrote and go why the heck did I post that. God knows I have..

I showed everyone around me your post and not 1 person thought you was sane..or thought it was a joke..till they read it again.

I owe a certain poster on this site an apology..you are not the one furthest out there..I think this post took the title from you...and by faaar.

WTF did I just read

I wouldn't execute family members, but I would be all up in 'em to find out if they knew anything.
Then charge them with whatever the legal term is for 'going along' with it and make sure they got all that was possible to get for 'going along'.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/heres-a-map-of-all-the-mass-shootings-in-2015/

Here is the map from PBS. It appears to me that there were about 13 in Chicago. I think he needs to look at the map again. The other site i referenced earlier had an excel spreadsheet

so i should get waterboarded if my family in turkey did something stupid?

man, some of you guys don't sound like you have any holiness in you.

proving me point that this world is godless.

Remind me to never cross words with you.

After 45+ years of shaving, I've already learned that 'razor cuts' never hurt at first. But a minute later....
-oh, My God.

...and all that blood in the sink- it's always unnerving to see just how much there really is.
(Kleenex? yeah... right- )

_____________


In this particular instance, I'm not even taking content or the particular players into consideration....


-I'm just in awe of the technique.


Neat.
Clean.
Efficient.


[clicks: "bow down low" smiley]

I must have misunderstood what he was saying. My bad for not checking. Thanks for the correction.

I don't know why people compare guns to cars because the rate of auto deaths in the US has not shown any major increase..

Maybe it's because there are legal regulations and expectations for driving, yet people still own and drive cars, register their cars yearly and don't assume the government will confiscate them.

You're welcome!

From too many cars to auto deaths? Be careful, I wouldn't want to see you fall. Leaps like that can be hazardous to your health.

Maybe it's the gang-bangers are using cars and not guns.

No maybe its because they kill more people then guns..maybe because they can also be used as a weapon..also just maybe cars are better made better have way better crash ratings is my guess why the death rates have stayed similar even with the boom in population.

For anyone interested...guess this doesnt fit your narrative the first page is pretty interesting..

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf



don't assume the government will confiscate them.

Assumptions??

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/5/editorial-obama-aims-for-confiscation-of-private-a/

For the ziillionith time on this board, that is a logical fallacy.

Cars were not created with the intention to kill/neutralize a target. Cars were create to get driver and passenger from point a to point b.

A guns specific purpose, it's original creation was to kill or neutralize a target it was aimed at.

but they are used..We benefit from the convenience of automobile travel, which may be why our abhorrence at vehicle-related mayhem quickly fades. Our initial shock at hearing of another vehicle-related crime becomes acceptance that auto-centered violence is a common subset of an increasingly violent society. It is not that we don’t care. Rather, we don’t understand the widespread impact. For example, few of us know or think about the fact that automobiles kill more people than do all weapons combined…. The most dominant weapons are firearms. Yet, although we insist that firearms have strict controls placed on them, it would be difficult to insist that motor vehicles require similar controls.

You can't compare accidents to intentional shootings.

At all.

And for he record, I don't support any dumbass getting their license, either. I wish it was like in Germany, where people actually had to earn it. Not just wait till their 18, drop 40 bucks and face roll the drivers test.

But regardless, car accidents aren't remotely the same as intentional shootings.

Even if you count the drivers that intentionally try to hit someone with their car, I bet that number is severely lower than shootings.

Logical fallacy.

Notice there was no comment on the links though...yet..hmm.

no fallacy at all..you can do as much damage with a vehicle as a gun and if you dont agree thats on u..whatever reason the vehicle was designed for.

the rate of violent crime has decreased recently, but this year it's increased dramatically here in Cleveland. But, the discussion is about gun sprees aimed at unsuspecting victims, not a wife or husband or gang banger.

Umpqua Community College was not a "gun free" zone.

So let's regulate guns the same as cars.

Even if you count the drivers that intentionally try to hit someone with their car, I bet that number is severely lower than shootings.

Logical fallacy.

best I could do at the moment.

https://awaitinginspiration.com/wp-content/uploads/all-intents-gun-car-deaths-99-09-bg.png

One is a constitutional right the other is not..so no lets not.

do you want to just nitpick areas or talk as whole?? I find strange the places with the strictest gun laws USUALLY have some of the highest murder rates.

Also quit using circular logic..u said that people are assuming that the government wants to confiscate weapons.

I showed you a link straight from barry's mouth about confiscation. could show MANY more where democrats have said the same thing that their end game is confiscation.

So its no assumption.

I'm trying to be civil to you...but do you just argue to argue?? spin to spin? bored and this is just silly entertainment?

I'd like to know so I dont waste time with someone who is just goofing off and wants to speak in circles? its an honest question to you.

People still using cars as an analogy to guns???

There is no proper analogy to guns. Sorry, guns were made for killing, cars not.

That said. I support the right to bear arms. Just being real.

one other thing Rock..from what I've read C-town murder rate looks low compared to other major cities..it does look like there are a bunch of thieves and robberies/assaults though.

Is that wrong?

well i guess that response ends the subject..thanks for clearing it up for me.

just saw your edit...ok.

I also think guns are made for protection..but point is..DAMN near anything can be used as a weapon..but folks like to say..look how many people die with guns at 1 time..well damn I'm just saying if I wanted to I could pick out any number of places and mow them over like nothing..and i'm sure the fatality rate would be high if I tried hard enough.

just saying

Welcome to the board

Actually, guns were made for self defense.

That's my view also..someone doesnt want those icky things well that's on them..I'm not waiting around for the police to show up 10mins late while my family is dead or bleeding out...or use my car to run them over

JUST SAYING.

I wonder if the woman hiding in her closet wanted a gun. If you don't know the story, she worked a block away from the initial shooting at the government building, and then the SUV shootout took place within a block of her home. She's hiding in a closet with her dogs waiting for police to tell her everything is ok and she can come out. She was being interviewed on a cell call by fox news.

If one of these loonies was on the run in your neighborhood, would you hide in a closet, or arm yourself in case they picked your house as a good place to hide? I know which option I prefer.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/08/...l-never-forget/

Wonder if the poor couple in this story wished they was armed.

And bubba I'm armed to the gills have ccw and carry everywhere..but I guess someone could just run right up and kill me:/ if they wanted to.

My wife calls me paranoid because I'm constantly watching my surroundings..I call it being prudent.

Truth is, the more we argue and divide ourselves as a nation, the more frequent these attacks will become. And yes, the media is responsible to a large extent for the biased reporting and stories they choose to make non stories. A nation divided......

Oh I agree about being divided..and ideologic shift happening right before our eyes. Started to get worse starting in 08

I do think Americans come together in moments of great tragedy..I loved the public sentiment of patriotism after 911.

But things are getting ugly in this country JMHO and well I've picked a side and hope I never have to be apart of civil unrest not seen since the civil war.

sorry man tinfoil got a little tight for a moment

Americans are too comfortable for a civil war to happen. Even the hardcore right wingers are doing nothing more than lip service.

We have first world problems here. My best friend is a far right winger, and every time we burn some weed and we see those infomercials of the kids in Africa, he goes "you know what? I really don't have anything to complain about "

I've said it before and I'll continue to say it. If you want to stop violence in this country, then you need to stop focusing on the second amendment and take a good hard look at the first amendment too. We've created a society that's completely addicted to violence because of what they watch on TV, Movies and Video Games. Sure, everybody's response to that is: "Well, I watch violent videos, and I don't feel the need to go shoot up a bunch of people" ... which is exactly the response that 99.99% of gun owners will tell you about owning a gun.

This new Star Wars is coming out is rated PG-13. Why is that? The originals are considered timeless classics. They were plenty entertaining, and they were rated PG. (Yes, I understand there was no PG-13 rating back then, but the movies themselves still would easily be considered PG today). A generation of kids grew up watching them and adults enjoyed them too. However now, movies have to be edgier and more violent just to draw an audience. I go to the comments section of articles about the new movie, and people are asking things like, "Why can't they just make this movie rated R?" ... Really? And we wonder why we have a violence problem in America these days? The real irony of it is that George Lucas made Episode 3 a lot more edgier and violent because people were demanding it. Naturally, it contains a scene where the main character goes to a school and murders children.

The epidemic of mass shootings really started right around the Columbine incident. Two kids dressed up in trench-coats with a bunch of weapons and started gunning down their classmates. Where on earth could they possibly get the idea for that something like would be cool ??? ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEuZgK669zY

Then you look at what some of the top rated TV shows out there are: Game of Thrones, The Sopranos, etc ... some pretty violent stuff. We've got a country full of people that's either completely addicted to violence, or at the least, desensitized to it. And then we wonder why people snap and turn to violent means to take out their aggression??

I'm not saying we need to ban everything, but just like guns, we need to have much stricter controls on this stuff. People just want to jump on the second amendment like it's going to solve anything. You need to treat the roots of the problem not just the means to an end.

I understand..which is why I made the tinfoil comment..Americans have always been slow to react but when they do watch out.

But I agree cant even get above 50% to vote on things that directly affect their lives...let alone anything major such as a full civil upheaval.

Buttttt....I still stand on what I said about division and a shift in ideological way of living life in America.

Oh no doubt we are the frog in the pot of water...and what did 50 say...America loves some gangster sh...

Excellent post.

One other thing Excel..the whole world is a very violent place.

But I will give u the culture problem here. Man more restrictions?? how do you deal with the plethora of people who don't give a care about the laws...add all the restrictions you want....Put them in the overly populated prisons?

we have a serious problem with being held self-accountable in this country.

The only ideological shift I see is people in general just not giving a crap anymore.

Right now, and his is what I see with my own eyes, you might be different, is that right now the majority of Americans are tryin to keep up, like everybody else in the world.

We have a minority group of people that's trying to keep us stuck in the past of beating out chest with military might like a bunch of gorillas, when the rest of the world has moved past that.

That's the shift and division I'm seeing. people wanna progress with the rest of the world, but people wanna stick to the good old days of military might of WW2/Cold War era.

And it's clear who these countries are. It's always Russia, China, and the United States.

Sprinkle in the Middle East, and we have a bunch of "SEE SEE!! Told you we need a stronger military!!!!"

Even though we already have THE STRONGEST military. I always found that funny, btw.

But yea, that's what I see as far as division. Most Americans just wanna live their lives, do their things, just make it through, but we got a strong minority group of people trying to control things like this is a James Bond movie.

Yes we are a nation divided and our only hope for our chil...

Oh look, a squirrel.

I think we spend waaaay to much on military..and I'm not real fond of being called unpatriotic for saying so...or other names.

Apathy is at an all time high i agree with that..I'm not going to list out in the open my list of what as what I see as ideological shift points are.

1. its off subject I guess

2. Id rather not piss anyone off today and be called names/argue the point.

And I completely understand why someone feels or see's it differently then i do..I just dont have the willingness right now to argue/try to back up my viewpoints on the subject.

right now the majority of Americans are tryin to keep up, like everybody else in the world.

Isnt that just life? some are good at it some arent but I fully got your point.

One other point I guess...it does bother me how Republicans have no problem spending a trillion$ on military..or give foreign nations billions in aid..especially to areas of the world who hate us..but scoff at the idea of spending less on the military budget and putting more into the domestic part of the budget.

And I also have friends who see things through a very strange lens..and cant even discuss this topic without them being pissed at me for a week.

So I just try to get my point across to them in small doses and hope their panties dont get twisted about it in the process.

Seriously FB I have directly answered the things you have requested with the highest level of respect I can provide.

I have calmly expressed my opinion and backed it up with evidence as much as possible.

If you disagree with my opinion about assuming the government wants to confiscate guns that's cool. It's part of the discussion.

If you think my responses are nothing but arguing, nit-picking, circular logic spin that's boring, goofing off, silly entertainment, that's just wasting your time then maybe it's not me who's not being civil.

Disagreeing does not equal disrespect.

I agree.

Desensitized.

I get very upset when watching Sunday football with the g-kids and the commercials are guns, explosions, and boobs.

Since you continuously make light of loss of life, I will consider this an irrelevant and greatly immature comment to be disregarded by those who actually think.

Its all good Rock...but I missed the part about this..I have calmly expressed my opinion and backed it up with evidence as much as possible.

What evidence have you shown?? I couldve missed it.

If you disagree with my opinion about assuming the government wants to confiscate guns that's cool. It's part of the discussion.


I didnt disagree with your OPINION I disagreed with you sayin people think the government is going to confiscate their weapons..

Gave you a link from our president that specifically said confiscation and that I could give you tons more on other democrats saying their end goal on the this is confiscation.

so unless I missed it you have provided no info to back up what you say..and I gave you info to support my position with you.

Like I said couldve missed you backing up what you've said with evidence. and not just a bunch of circular logic.

This posting stuff is new for me..so I concede i could've made a mistake..but man what you post sometimes reads as shock value and no substance.

Or ED drugs?

I think a big part of the problem is the economy. If 94 million people weren't out of the job market right now, they'd have something better to do than crime. When there are no jobs, people still have to make a living somehow, and the easiest way is in some illegal venture.

(This is not to say everyone that is unemployed is a criminal or pursuing criminal activities)

I think that's just part of the forum, but I will try to focus on being as civil as possible with you.

Other than that I'll probably be like a lot of people of all parts of the spectrum on this forum.

Bologna..its not that its global warming that has the planet acting crazy.

Deal..

j/c....

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i get that,

however, a lot of criminals aren't actually violent, initially. hopefully nobody takes that as me saying give them pass, they need to be punished.

but we're talking in a since people who are violent...just to be violent.

for example, if you're gonna rob a liquor store, chances are you have no intentions on actually shooting anybody. theres a lot of cases were guys act like they have a gun under their hoody, but really don't.

but we all know the guy that drinks too much and wants to fight somebody. or the gangs, were violence is a right of passage/initiation.

or people who are just violent by nature.

and i have to ask this: is this just our nature as humans? this has been happening forever now, since before recorded history.

part of me thinks we're better than this, but part of me wonders if we really aren't.

Sorry, i don't Tulsa makes light of it, just tries to break the circle of hate that goes on during these kind of discussions.

You missed the point of the proposition.

The point is not the end result, or the purpose, it is absolving the person committing the crime by saying that "that only happened because there are too many X, Y, or Z". Saying that a person only commits murder because there are too many guns is like saying that a drunk driver only drives drunk because there are too many cars. Access is not the major problem. If a killer decides to use fertilizer to make a bomb, the amount of fertilizer in the world is not the problem. The criminal action of the killer is. If a man uses a knife to kill someone, access to knives is not the issue, but rather the criminal action of the person who uses it. If a man uses his fists to beat someone to death, fists are not the problem, but the violent action of the person using those fists is.

Criminal action is the problem, not the .. *ahem* .... vehicle .... used to carry out the crime.

Hell no..This planet has been violent from its very conception..unless you believe in Adam and Eve..but even then look how that turned out and the rest of history from there..Humans are violent by nature/survival instinct IDK.

Really???? Suggesting we come together and stop the American divide, to conquer our enemies is hate? Whoa...you and I are really on different pages. Alrighty then.....

i think you need to calm down.

when have i ever been against anything you proposed? i simply said you unloaded on Tulsa for no reason.

i've been trying to bring people together, but i get called a lib thingy, hippy, tree hugger, and my personal favorite "naive" on this board.

but now people wanna talk about come together when something bad happens?

at least i'm consistent with my message,

except you missed the part where guns were specifically created to do just that: kill.

so you can beat around the bush all you want, just like you do everything else.

at the end of the day, cars, hammers, etc were not created to kill.

guns were, thats a fact, i've posted numerous articles and such about this in other past threads.

a cannon original purpose isn't to shoot fat people out of during a circus event, it's original purpose to is to create an explosion to take out multiple targets and/or buildings.

a rifle original purpose isn't to shoot beer cans in your backyard. it was design for maximum effectiveness in killing/neutralizing a target, whether it be an animal or person.

this is the problem with gun debates. you guys refuse to call a spade a spade. i'm all for the second amendment, but this constantly turns into "they tryin' to take merh guns!!!"

when all people want is to make it so that people can't easily accessthe easiest tool people use to create chaos who have no business having it.

everybody is a law abiding citizen, until they aren't anymore.

they tryin' to take merh guns!!!"

And their not trying to??

I took it as just, simply, a humorous statement that wasn't intended in any way to make light of the loss of life.

More so, perhaps it was a dig at society and our short attention span?

Tulsa generally tries to lighten up a conversation. JMO

if the government wanted to take your guns, they would've done so already.

most people aren't gonna risk their lives, more specifically my wife and kids if the government comes to my door and wants my weapon.

we've reached the point of no return as far as the government trying to confiscate peoples guns in a mass effort. it's not worth the bloodshed at this point. there's too many people, too many guns.

people who think the government are trying to take their guns are the same people who think 9/11 was an inside job.

I think youre very wrong..the gun stuff is just getting warmed up..one more liberal justice on the supreme court and I think things will get real interesting in how the 2nd is interpreted.

people who think the government are trying to take their guns are the same people who think 9/11 was an inside job.

Well when the president and the left are coming out and bluntly talking about how they want to confiscate..it is no where near a nut that believes 9/11 was an inside job.

you like to read no? I read this on my flight..think I'm going to read on the flight back home.

http://stephenhalbrook.com/gun_control.html

The wording of the left and our president uses is strikingly familiar to what is told in this book.

So for someone who says they like to learn try it out read it..if your serious about reading it and seeing the similarities to what our elected leaders are saying..I might send it to you.

if the government wanted our guns, they would've already taken it.

we had a record number of sales on black friday. gun purchases have gone up.

at this point, its nothing more than fear mongering and conspiracy theory.

when the government makes a federal, mandatory, country wide law for all citizens to turn in their weapons, let me know.

til then, i'm selling tin foil hates 10 for 5 dollars. paypal is accepted.