It’s OBJs fault.

"How to Blow It", by Baker Mayfield.

In his defense, he didn't get in much work and there was a hold on that last pass....but still.

Also, guys. Baker was missing routine throws. I understand the last INT should’ve been a defensive holding, but baker should’ve had 4 picks anyway if the defender doesn’t drop one. 5 if the defender didn’t drop the pass on the two pointer.

This game was here for the taking. The defense did their job yet again. All 3 TDs the packers scored came off our QBs turnovers.

Baker just isn’t it.

Amazing. The run was working fantastically and yet for three straight downs with the game and season on the line they call plays for Color-Blind Baker to throw his 4th interception. He’s got to go. And I’m pretty upset with Stepflunksi and his idiotic switch to the passing game. Season is over.

Well, that jackass sure as hell didn't help things around here. Couldn't find his hands to save his soul, while wearing orange and brown. I'm sick of hearing about his ass, too.

we scored a TD in the 4th, so there's that

I'm selling my Mayfield stock, I'd rather invest in Deshaun Watson, at this moment I don't care if he sexually assaulted half the city of Houston, I just want a winner at QB

Yea, I get he didn’t get any work this week.

But work or not, you don’t throw it into double coverage.

2 of his picks could’ve been a minimum of 2 FGs if we don’t turn it over. Another FG if he doesn’t take back to back sacks.

We had 3 back ups on the line and still rushed for over 200. I’m just done with baker.

I hate to say it, but, Baker blew this game. I also never criticize play calling, but three passes when you are averaging 7 yards a carry is piss poor play calling. Njoku was open multiple times and the ball is behind him. The long throws were atrocious. This team will not go anywhere with Baker, it's sad to say.

Back ups all over the field, and you take basically the best team in the league to the wire, only to be beat by horrible QB play.

This front office needs to go all in on Deshaun. We are, as been said many times over the years, a QB away from being a good team.

Comon man be better then that. I would not want that rapist on our team if we could get him for nothing

I hate to say it but he’s worth the risk at this point. If he gets cleared but suspended a few games for player misconduct, so be it.

Right now I’m calling Houston.

just run the ball when the game is on the line and we win

Roger Goodell can SAD. His league is garbage. His officials are CHEATERS. The Browns may not have won this game in the end, but officials REPEATEDLY "missing" calls in Browns games (or simply making them up) is criminal. These games are fixed. There is NO question in my mind. Follow the money. An investigation is needed. I'm sick and tired of watching this BLATANT cheating. Enough.

An average QB and that’s a blowout.

redzone we should run the ball and take as many fgs we can

Baker's passing game looking horrid, so what does Stefanski do? Magically call pass plays when Chubb/D'Ernest were tearing it up. Plenty of TOs to use the run game.

Regardless - on Baker for not protecting the ball and Stefanksi for playing right to Baker's weakness.

We had 3 timeouts and 50 seconds left. Take the dang timeout, let Chubb catch his breath, and get him back in there. Fire Stefanski and bring in Doug Pederson.

Nonsense to blame this game on officiating. We have one of the 10 worst qb’s in the league and he threw 3 int’s - and nearly threw 4 before the final drive. Then did throw #4 on the final drive! Lol.

Season is officially over. Starting now, our guys will want to preserve their health for the offseason. - Vacations await and they have lots of money in their bank accounts to spend. You can expect a 50% effort from here on out.

‘Tis the Season! Merry Christmas Gents! There are other things to celebrate tonight and over the next week.

home cooking for sure...offsides by gb and its false start without moving

I didn't want to bring up the officials, but they blew many calls today that hurt us. Still 4INTS, you will always lose.

This take is hotter than a freshly stolen BMW.

I thought the team played well overall. And the gameplan was solid.

The ints are on Baker and I'm sure he will own them.

I noticed that Baker seemed to get rid of the ball quicker and so Im wondering if that is the reason for those ints.
Normally he hems and haws before throwing.
So I guess my question is if he is trying to change up his play.

My addition of....but still... was my way of indicating it was a half ass defense of his play.

We will keep him for next season, but the guy is playing his way out of Cleveland.

We got the short end of the officiating for sure but let's face it, the 4 interceptions were ridiculous even if the last one shouldn't have counted. We beat ourselves constantly.

Baker blows, Stephanski can't call a game for his life....
We need a QB...and whats the deal with all the advertising on this site? Geez....

The Browns fortunes, and culture, won't change until we get our Rodgers.

Aikman lamented consistently throughout the telecast that the difference in winning and losing is the routine plays that Baker just didn't make. If he connects with Njoku two plays before the pick, you're in FG range.

There's two things going on with Baker...he either doesn't work hard enough in the off season / isn't working on the right things or he just doesn't have it between the ears.

The problem is unless you are in a position to draft Ridder, you're stuck with Baker. Rodgers and Wilson are not coming to Cleveland. Watson does not fit the culture here.

Now let's hear how it's everyone else's fault but Baker's.

Yeah the only feel good thing I would take away from this season is if we can beat Pittsburgh next week (and we should), but I have zero faith we can do that.

Also for the Baker apologists for him not getting in any work this week, clearly he needs it, but realistically he should know the offense by know, know the timing of his guys, and hit them on target by now this late in the season.

I like Pickett.

I have been a Baker supporter but the more I see the more I'm starting to think that his critics may be right. Obviously we should keep him for now but if there is a chance to upgrade at the QB position we should do it. JMO

He's not good Eve.

It's ok. Just admit it.

Unless you are the Browns playing the Ravens, and pick of Lamar 4 times, then becoming the 1st team in NFL history to do that and still lose

Browns are just a loser organization.

It will always be that way until we find the next Aaron Rodgers.

No, youre a hater.

I recognize that this team is a work in progress. Not a finished product.

Before the season started we all thought we were going to the Superbowl.
We all bought into the hype train.

But nobody recognized that last year was a creampuff schedule and this year is a ball cracker schedule.
That and we have a young team and young coaches.

So now yall want to burn down the house and start over.
That's BS.

Let them learn from their mistakes and get better.
This team has way too much talent to trash them.

They are a work in progress.
I give them a pass for this season.

Fill in some holes in the offseason and heal those injuries.

Stefanski has a few issues but can't blame him today. That was on BM's shoulders. 4 - 0 turnovers and there is your ballgame, folks....

Hear, hear, Eve.

That tool is the ultimate hater.

7-8 in a season filled with super bowl aspirations.

15 tds, 11 ints (these are Bernie numbers in a run heavy 80's NFL).

No fourth quarter comebacks this season.

Only one fourth quarter comeback in the last two year's.

One (maybe 2?) fourth quarter comebacks against winning teams ever.

Craps the bed on every nationally televised game.

Laughed at and ridiculed by TV analysts across multiple networks.

...and I'm the hater.

This is what happens when you root for players and not the Browns.

3 picks were gifts from the refs

Just saw a tweet ...

Baker has had the ball with the chance to win/tie on the final drive 16 times in his career. His record is 2-14.

I said this even before the season started ... if Baker didn't take a step forward and start beating good teams and be able to put a team on his back, the Browns will go nowhere.

Guess what. They are going nowhere.

But my favorite part about this week will be post after post dissecting the Njoku play and if he got the right "depth" on his route so that Baker could complete the pass.

The 1st int.It looked like the packers were playing man under with a free safety.Any HS QB worth his salt knows not to throw deep middle against that defense.Landry,I believe,was running a crossing route and was wide open for at least a 15 yard gain.
An inaccurate QB,who doesn't read defenses well,is not a good QB.

Yes, the play should have been to Landry.

It's tough. You draft a guy number one overall he's supposed to be the guy for 15 years.

Now it's back to the drawing board.

Wasn't able to watch or listen to the game, although able to listen to the pressers. Baker himself says he's a NFL quarter back and he needs to make those plays.

Sounds like the team didn't quit ! lost by 2. Yes they need to get these kind of wins. I think this team will be a lot better next year. Defense holds the Packers to a FG in the 2nd half is a heck of an accomplishment.

A team riddled with injuries and covid , it has to be a miracle they have 7 wins...

How ya all feel if they win out now !

Give us any other QB (just about) in the NFL and we win the game. We outplayed them up front and the defense was good considering. Our run game was astonishing. Our QB was freaking garbage.

My biggest gripe:

- 1st and 10 at midfield with 1:00 on the clock and 3 timeouts … and we didnt run it PLUS chubb wasn’t even in the game. That’s unacceptable IMO

Chubb is only allowed to get so many carries a game according to Stump earlier in the year.

True story.

Only one thing to say. 21 points off turnovers.

That's the thing and that's my take . . . when the game is on the line, your franchise QB needs to deliver and he just doesn't. He's got them deer in the headlights look about him and that's just "game over" for me. I love his chutzpah but he's not the guy. I don't know that Stefanski and co. can coach that in him either.

Why do we always want to blow it up?

None of you will EVER get a championship with this crazy mentality around here.

The Browns as an organization are at a crossroads - Andrew Berry is going to have a difficult decision to make this offseason. He didn't draft Mayfield - what's he to do? Picking up his option is the easy part; what he does next is going to be telling. If the Browns don't make the playoffs, they might not be in a draft position to get a QB that could change the fortunes of their franchise. So the question then becomes - do you think the Browns are a player away from consistently making noise in the playoffs and competing for championships? If so - trade for Watson or Wilson, Ryan, etc and be done with it. Otherwise, draft a young QB and deal with the growing pains that entails.

Pick up his option and get on the horse to find his replacement ASAP.

He’s not good. And this offense can’t overcome his crap.

I still think missing the extra points was a big deal.. make them and it's a tie game..

Didn't he only miss one extra point?

The extra point, if he made the first extra point then they would have probably kicked an other extra point instead of having to go for two.. Sorry worded that wrong..your right

Baker and Ski threw our season out in the trash. I'm heartbroken.

When the game is on the line, do NOT have Chubb on the bench and RUN THE DAMN BALL!

Baker. How many times does this guy get to prove he’s a franchise guy with 2-3 minutes left to win?

He’s had 5 times this year and failed every time.

That’s enough for me.

A loser organization never finds the next Aaron Rodgers unless there is a drastic change in ownership and culture.

I saw a really funny post about Baker in the gameday forum, from CapCity. "He must have woke up feeling generous"

It's hard to come here and read this forum this season, "Baker this, Baker that." "Any other QB in the world and we win that game, blah, blah, blah." But I knew what I was getting into when I came here.

My confidence in Baker hasn't waivered. He's our guy. We could go out and try to get a better quarterback we won't find one. Brady, Rodgers, Wilson don't want to come here. I don't think Baker is inaccurate like the picture being painted. Our receivers suck. OBJ was our best and he took it upon himself to run whatever route he wanted. DPJ was held but you gotta keep fighting for the ball. Landry just isn't the deep threat we pay him to be. But it was nice to actually see him catch a 3rd down pass. Njoku gotta come to the ball not run up field. These are timing routes. Nick Chubb, great runner, terrible runner of routes.

Watch Rodgers and Adams. Those balls are thrown before Adams even turns around. Baker had a few of those throws tonight. We don't need to go find our Rodgers. We need to find our Adams. Chemistry would be a nice thing to see for once.

I can't place the blame on Baker for this one. Is he part? Sure. So is Chubb, Garrett, DPJ, etc etc.

We can still win this. Need some help, but winning the last two games we can win still the division.

Merry Christmas to all.

What hurts the most is our guys left everything on the field. They played their hearts out just for Baker and Ski to throw it all away. Smh

Baker was awful.... that last PI non call was BS.... why we didn't run more that last drive is beyond me....

I think the Browns are two players away. Another big-time playmaking receiver and a playmaking Darius Leonard type LB.

People forget how good Baker was last year. He is a good, not great, QB when healthy. I still think the Browns can win with Baker. There is no great franchise type QB in the 2022 draft. If Berry thinks an upgrade at QB is needed he will have to trade for one.

I see it differently.. A 7-7 team going into an 11-3 team at their home field and losing by two with all the injuries and covid cases the Browns have was a good effort.

I said a few weeks back I don't feel this is a play-off team.. can they over come all the adversity .. Can they finish ? no.

Play calling is only how the out come of the play is.. 3 time outs left and the calls..welllllllll !

They beat beat the Steelers and Bengals..things will feel much better... one game at a time...

The number of 'questionable' calls that go against us, with the number of 50/50 calls that go against us, with the number of blatant penalties not called on our opponents. We may as well just have a professional wrestler run out and elbow drop our coach and change the scoreboard...it would fit right in the NFL.

You hit the nail on the head. This team has no chemistry.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all also!

I could feel much better about "the effort" over the last 2 weeks had we not blown games to the Chargers, Ravens, Steelers earlier in the yearwhen we were relatively healthy.. We blow games when we throw, when we run, when we play good defense, when we don't play good defense. We just lose. Its the only thing we do consistently, is find ways to lose to close games.

Cut Baker, keep Baker, fire Stefanski, keep Stefanski..... I have my questions about both of them... but they don't win.

My mind will not get off the fact that we refused to run it from midfield with 3 TOs left … we were averaging like 9YPC at that point. WTF

I’ll defend Bake. Everyone’s blaming Baker but the fourth and first INTs came after DPJ was interfered with. No call either time.

The second one - it WAS a bad pass - came a play after Baker was grabbed by the face mask and had his head spun around then took a sack. Instead of 1st and goal it’s third and 18 or whatever the hell it was. The Packers got almost every break by the refs.

The third pick seemed like a mis-communication with Landry. Our WRs can’t seem to get a lot of separation, but I will say there were a few passes where baker threw slightly behind/ahead of the target.

Good and great teams find ways to win through adversity with great coaching, great play calling, and great execution with 2nd and 3rd stringers. The Ravens are a prime example. We are an average team.

We’ve lost some HEART BREAKERS:

At KC
At LAC
PIT
At BAL
LV
At GB


We win half of those and we’re looking at a BYE!! … ugh

Receiver is a lot easier to find than LB. This upcoming draft looks to be defensive line heavy. Curious: Do you think the Browns need a ILB or another OLB?

The games that hurt the most are the Baltimore and Pittsburgh games - Pittsburgh especially; they had no kicker. Baltimore - can't take advantage of 4 INT's? Really?

yep, those are basically unacceptable losses given the circumstances

Baker was terrible. So many passes looked like he was aiming for the DB. The one that was dropped hit the defender in the numbers.
When he wasn't throwing behind his WRs, he was throwing early or just plain missing. He seemed to calm himself somewhat in the 2nd half but was still really erratic. I don't think we'll be able to upgrade this off-season, but we have to at least start positioning ourselves (likely stockpiling picks and/or cash).

Chubb ran hard. Had a great game.

D played well AND didn't fold at the end. They're short-handed and beat up and played as well as anyone could expect vs GB in their house. Held GB to 24 points, and 21 were off of TOs. Would've liked to take the ball away, but given our roster I can't ask for more than what they gave.

Hooper played alright. He made some tough catches and didn't have any drops. Thought I saw some Higgins sightings.
Njoku drives me nuts. That guy should be thriving in this O.

Our Oline had a bad stretch their in the second half where they were getting owned by a 4-man rush.

The Browns need a WR that can stretch the field... The Browns need a play caller who will use that WR..

DC .. might look different if next Monday night the Browns win..then they will be 1-0

When you have to come up with excuses for FOUR interceptions... there's something wrong...

how many times has Baker had a chance to win the game on the last drive this year?? Has it been 4? 5?

I get he had a good season last year and has been hurt this year.... but damn.... I'm tired of our offense having a chance to win the game on the last drive and squander it...

Didnt i read that he is 2-14 when facing a game winning drive? That’s pathetic

hadn't heard that.... but not surprised...

j/c...

- 4 INTs. Absurd. Baker was bad. Missing throws all night.

- Refs blew/missed 4-5 critical calls. Wyatt Teller's mom wasn't happy about it either.

- LeCounte III on Adams is hilariously inept. That was a free TD before the ball was even snapped.

- The Curse of Phil Dawson lives.

- Got away from the run for awhile as the Browns were gaining big yardage on the ground.

- Final possession after gaining chunks on the ground, Browns go incomplete pass, incomplete pass, INT to lose the game. Of course they did.

- Hat tip to John Johnson III for his tweet.

- Merry Christmas.

Go Frowns.

Funny.

Last year we won a ton of close games. That’s not really a repeatable skill and is based a ton on luck.

Barnwell predicted a reversion back to the mean this year. Probably why the o/u was set where it was too.

Yeah. When you win close games the next year you will probably revert back. We had blinders on.

How about Frank Reich. Can anyone here picture Stefanski coaching a team out of a 1-3 hole? Baker is the biggest problem on the team, and Stefanski is somewhat limited by his QB, but does Stefanski inspire confidence? Can he out coach or out scheme another team? He just seems so clueless during post game pressers and in week pressers. He has actually appeared shell shocked multiple times this season unable to fathom how his coaching did not produce a win. We have a coach and QB who are so uninspiring its hard to figure out what gets the players up to play.

He had a chance today and it was stolen form him by a non call.
The refs stole this game in the last 2 minutes.

I don't post on here very often mostly just read, but I am so sick of this team making the same mistakes over and over. Yes the refs did steal the game due to a non PI call. Aikman even said it was and all the football shows are saying it was. That would not have even been an issue if Stefanski wouldn't have done like he always does and abandoned the run game. The run game was working and he gave up on it again.

I hope next year if he is still coach he will swallow his pride and turn over play calling to the next OC which I hope isn't Van Pelt. Joe Woods needs to go to. When we put pressure on Rodgers the few times we did he missed the throws. We have lost games from Woods playing soft and letting the other team march down the field for the game winning FG. Speaking of field goals we need to see if Phil Dawson will come our of retirement. Haven't had a good kicker since he left. To many points left out on the field because of them that would have been the difference in winning and losing.

This team has come a long way in the last few years. This team is in most every game. Just need to get to that point where they know how to finish them. The last few years I actually started getting excited to watch them again. I am 70 years old and I would sure like to see them make it to the big game before I leave this world.

I'm sorry, but Baker is 100% not the biggest problem. But let's say we need to get a new QB. Ask yourself if you are Aaron Rodgers would you come here with these receivers? We most likely have the worst receivers in the league and I'm not saying one or two couldn't pan out but today they are the worst. Rodgers doesn't come here unless we bring Adams here as well and that simply isn't happening.

If you believe Baker is the biggest problem In sorry that you're misinformed. We go 1-31, and Baker turns this team around and now everyone wants to get rid of him. How soon we forget 2016 and 2017. For shame.

An average QB has us in first place by a couple games. Stefanski is not the problem.

Maybe we have a red zone play caller? Save Stefanski from himself. I get to watch another tight loss and have the heart taken cleanly out of my chest again. But Baker lowered the bar by himself. I believe we had a shot, but the drive with multiple penalties (suddenly the refs are involved in 4th again smh) and taking two sacks AND making me listen to Aikman's drivel telling us what we have to do was painful. Browns fans got their stockings stuffed today.

A QB needs to make the people around him better. Today, Baker played poorly enough to do the opposite. Dropped balls, picks, more dropped balls, FLAGS! And we had the run going and left it. Take this offense away from this man, and shop a replacement at QB. Any playoff hope cannot be filtered through these two IMO. We are wasting exaggerated talent. But we don't look good on the field, not even on paper. I am a fan, but how many times must we repeat mistakes while also failing to learn from the. The interviews should be snappy and equally instructive this week. Somebody should be ashamed. Taking the blame is hardly helpful; it is ironic that it is deemed helpful and we will repeat the same grinder again. This has been inspiringly awful.

Facts:

The Browns are 7-8.
Below 500.
In last place in the North.
Currently sitting at #13 in the AFC standings - trailing powerhouses like Denver, Miami and Las Vegas.
We're better than the Jets, Jags and Texans - and that's it.
Baker Mayfield is 2-14 in 1 score games in the 4th quarter.

This team is a loser franchise, with a loser owner, and a loser QB - and the facts show it. And it will continue until we get those right.

To all the Baker knights who will again try to defend him - I actually agree with you that we should keep him for one more year. There's squat to draft and we aren't signing a top FA.

I’m not going to defend Baker’s four interceptions because two of them is 100% on him but we have a QB who’s clearly not healthy enough to deliver his best. It’s there for everyone to see that he can’t even fully lift his left arm when he’s throwing the ball and that affects his throwing motion and injuries like that often take away timing and accuracy. Try to make a serve with a tennis ball or throw a baseball with accuracy without fully lifting your left arm. Come back when it’s done and then tell me it’s’ not affecting you.

Our OLine is banged up and have huge problems keeping the pocket clean. A couple of heavy sacks on a injured QB doesn’t fill him or our play caller with confidence and that combined with almost zero threats on deep balls will off course affect the game plan.

The referees. When they don’t officiate on blatant fouls it will install hesitation and fear on a team who’s low on confidence.The NFL needs to clean this [censored] up because for neutrals mistakes like this make the game experience less enjoyable and unfair.

Kevin Stefanski. Really? His timing on when and how to call critical plays late in the game is often awful, not to mention his lack of fingerspitzengefühle. Supporters often complain about players who make mistakes but how about crazy play calls who clearly affect our results.

We have a really good team when our key players is healthy but without two of our best defensive players, a unhealthy QB without confidence, a banged up OLine, no deep threat in our offense and a confused HC it’s hard to win away games against one of best teams in the league. Not to mention the referees.

Maybe I’m too optimistic but I will not give up yet. Those who believe will be rewarded….

I'll ask again, do you have any confidence Stefanski could coach this team out of 1-3 hole? I'm not disagreeing with your statement above, but Baker isn't the only person on the team that needs everything perfect.

we were running 8 yards a carry and chose to pass and take a sack on 3 consecutive drives

Like the the Raiders game?

Being a Browns fan reminds me of a song from many years ago. "Nothing But A Heartache" by the Flirtations.

My thoughts -

- Good game by Chubb. And Johnson always seems to deliver when he is subbing for Chubb.
- Stewart came to play. JOK with a good game. And Ward.
- You can tell Garrett is still bothered by the injury. He took some heat during the game day chat. When he is playing hurt and obviously not himself, it's just another game where he "disappears." When Baker plays hurt and negatively impacts the team, he is a "warrior."
- When we needed to replace the Hammer because of COVID, we did well. When we replaced our kicker ... not so much. Missed XP which moved us until the ill-fated try for two, which was blown up from the snap.
- So, Baker. I am almost looking forward to the excuses this week. Should make for some good surfing. I did see a bit of that in the game day chat.
- First pick ... yes, a flag could have been thrown on the defense. But DPJ was double-covered. Seeing a WR getting held is not like getting a free play when a DE jumps offside. The excuses that Baker threw the ball because he saw the defensive hold smells like a lame excuse for the QB. He threw it into double coverage. That is never the play. For twenty years people have been saying we never get the calls so you think throwing that pass expecting to get a call makes sense?
- Second pick was a horrible over throw. Maybe Landry's fault for not being 8 feet tall?
- Third pick was a horrible under throw. I have already seen Landry being blamed for this one. LOL. He got past the defender and was open. The ball was under thrown and he had to hit the brakes. That is why he slipped. Not that it mattered, the DB jumped the route and snagged it before it got close to Landry. Landry had zero to do with that pick. There are 30 QBs in the NFL who get a TD on that play.
- The 4th pick ... that was because of the PI. The receiver did not have a chance to get the spot.
- I remember another pick that GB dropped. I have heard there were two but I do not remember the 2nd. Unless that was on the 2-point try.
- The last drive had some promise. The run was working, but to keep the D honest we had to try some passes. I guess I cannot complain about the play calls as the receiver was open on both of those plays. Baker simply missed both throws.
- Remember when we were excited we did not pick Josh Allen because he was so inaccurate? Good times.
- Props to the D. When we needed to stop GB from scoring to give us a chance, we forced punts.
- Greedy with another bad game.

Unlike the Raiders game, the run was working against Green Bay.

All of this. What bothers me is that Baker looked very good as a rookie even when though he threw more INTs than I would have liked. Then his second year was a mess. His third year he actually looked like what we wanted him to be. This year? Is it the injuries? I think that they play a role. He has suddenly become inconsistent. You mentioned his footwork as a problem. He has been making more poor throws than before.

What else can we see that has been a problem? What changed dramatically from last year? Yes, Covid has played a role but every team has been impacted albeit some more than others. Yes, injuries have played a role. I think that Baker’s usage by Stefanski was changed from last year. I could be wrong but it seems that suddenly Stefanski wanted game manager Baker instead of what Baker was last year. I also think that league caught on to Stefanski. Does this mean that we should change coaches? Not necessarily but I think some in-house analysis over the off-season of Stefanski and the staff is very much in order.

Somewhat encouraged watching the game - despite the loss and coming so close:

- In a game most gave us no chance - it came down to a missed extra point and then going for 2 and not getting it.
- Baker played badly - absolutely. Not willing to even begin to think it's time to move on. [1] He was coming off 2 weeks of no practice [2] The first and last interceptions came on plays where pass interference checked the WR. More on the officiating later, but the bear hug and the shirt pull are as much or more to blame for the those two interceptions.
- The idea that been floated around that KS doesn't trust Baker is absurd ... on 4th and 1 early in the game, KS called a pass play. At the end of the game (more later) KS decided Baker was the best chance to get a first down and threw, threw and threw again. Unless KS is sabotaging Baker to make him look bad - KS trusts Baker plenty.
- Defense played one of their best games against an elite offense with significant number of players out. I know we stymied a couple of bad teams early in the year - this performance for me was better. With the exception of the Blitz/Easy TD, it was just solid all round and we had a ton of injuries. You have to factor in we went against one of the top 3 QB in the NFL today and probably in the last 20 years.
- Still issues with too many dropped balls. So funny to see a Packer WR struggle to make a pretty spectacular catch when a Browns DB was draped over him - and how Pissed Rodgers was. And then see our guys have balls hit their hands and drop them.
- Definitely issues with balls thrown behind receivers. Timing off literally 1/2 a second or less. Hard to believe that with a QB coming of Covid and who didn't practice with the team for 2+ weeks. I know, right? Misses none the less and on Baker. And there was another throw of Baker's that could easily of been picked as well. That was probably the worst decision and throw all night, from memory the receiver was possibly triple covered.
- Chubb exploding and showing why he's one of the top 2 or 3 RB's in the NFL. Just a monster. Johnson looking plenty good also. Almost ridiculous for a 3rd string RB.
- Shout out to the OL ... they had a couple spells where the pocket collapsed immediately. But for the hand we were dealt they did more than enough in both pass protection and running game.
- Officiating sucked as bad as any game I remember. Troy Aikman is awful as a commentator. I always feel when he is on for a Browns game he virtually never 'observes' anything for/positive for the Browns. Even he called out 5 egregious calls by the refs. The bear hug on DPJ during the first interception was ridiculous - as was calling a false start when the GB player was offsides and the entire OL didn't move until the ball was snapped ... And the last interception/shirt pull was nearly as bag - certainly blatant. I thought New York could overturn obvious missed calls - especially in the last 2 minutes of the game? wtf.
- I thought KS called one of his best and most balanced games. Clearly it felt like a "must win" game and game seemed to be called accordingly. Right up to the end. 50 seconds left, 2 points behind and 3 time outs. . . . last week we ran 3 times into a 9 man front and I wanted a play action call. This week was totally different in the 4th Q and on the final drive - we were gouging them in the run game. . . . I actually liked the aggressive deep call on the first down, but after that, with the running game averaging over 7 yards a play - 3 time outs, midfield. It was truly incredible to see 3 passes in a row called. I mean if Baker had been on point all game? Maybe. If the run game was getting stuffed? Absolutely. If we needed a TD instead of a FG? Probably not still. On the back of 3 interceptions - miss-timed passes all game - 3 passes. That's just bad coaching and play calling.


- Bottom Line: The team did enough to win - on the road - against one of the best teams in the NFL. We overcame 4 interceptions and 4 or 5 diabolical officiating calls - and we were within 2 points and driving. For all the "Woe is Me, the Browns are totally crap, burn it to the ground" belly aching that I see ... I think that needs to sink in. Baker still is recovering from a torn Labarum, coming off 2 weeks of no practice. We are still decimated by injury. Still cobbling together a make shift OL. . . . I think we are much closer than most want to realize. I think Baker is a no-brainer for a 5th year. And while I think an extension is all about his play next year - I am not giving up on this season either. Lot of football left to be played and other teams that need to win out are going to get hit by Covid too - maybe not like the Browns because precautions are going to get put in place by other teams ... but key players are going to miss games for a lot of teams. Go Browns.

I have 100% confidence in Stefanski.

The phrase “they did enough to win” is BS. They didn’t win so they didn’t do enough to win. And moral victories mean nothing, not this late in the season. Nobody gets to know what would have happened so “if this” or “if that” mean nothing because “if this” and “if that” did not happen.

Baker is an average QB this year so saying we would be in first with an average QB is pointless.

The reality is that the team while hammered by injuries and COVID has not performed. Other teams have injury and COVID issues. There are things going on besides injuries and COVID.

GB was held to 1.5 points less than their average points per game. Their defense allowed .4 points more than they allow per average. The Browns simply did not do enough to win.

As bad as the (2) uncalled PI's and the mis-called False Start on Teller were, I think the worst was the non-call of a facemask committed on Mayfield when he was sacked on 3rd & 14 at the GB 35 yardline with about 10 mins left in the 4th Q. If that gets called, its 1st down at the 20. A FG at that point makes it 24-18, with what followed resulting in a 25-24 lead. I know projections are dangerous, because GB would have played differently with their last possession, but its not hard to imagine the D making the stop (as they did when down 24-22).

In what world is Baker an average QB?

j/c…

That's a good point - the offsides was [1] a non call on a GB infringement that we probably all saw in real time. [2] A phantom call on a player that didn't even flinch before the ball was snapped. . . . And the facemask on Baker - I've seen called for less and multiple officials have to be looking at the QB/tackle as it happens. So yeah - v bad.

The only QBs worse than Baker in QBR this year, before yesterday’s game, are Jared Goff,
Sam Darnold, Trevor Lawrence, Davis Mills, Justin Fields, and Zach Wilson.

He is with a cluster of guys whose rating is in the 80’s to 90’s. Baker, this year, is average. I think a lot has to do with his injuries and dropped balls. That being said look at his game logs last year. He was for half the season a game manager who didn’t turn the ball over. The last half of the year his stats jumped.

There is something going on that we do not know about.

Agreed, but we may never find out

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/player/_/table/passing/sort/QBRating/dir/desc

Rated just above Baker are Goff, Roethlisberger, Jackson, Bridgewater, Heinicke, Jones (can you say coach Bill), Tua and Carr. Which of those guys would you prefer over Baker? Maybe Jackson? Maybe Carr? Beyond that? None of them.

I would say that your 100% confidence in Stefanski seems to fly in the face of your vitriol and commentary on Baker. KS thought an injured Baker was our best option all season even immediately after his shoulder injury/re-injury. KS thought that passing the ball 3 times at the end of the game, and on the back of Bakers form in the rest of the GB game - 3 interceptions, multiple bad passes behind receivers and a pass that should have been another pick - was the best chance to win the game. Something doesn't seem to align with your 100% confidence in KS, your belief that Baker is a bum, and the way KS called the game yesterday.

I was responding to a question about if I was confident in Stefanski to dig out of a 1-3 hole.

j/c

Whenever I read "Baker has to have everything perfect" post, I know what I'm dealing with. Coming to a 1-31 team...head coached by Hue Jackson...not allowed to compete with Tyrod Taylor...coming into his first game cold and breaking the two-year winless streak. That's perfect.

2019 - Freddie Kitchens and being woefully out of shape and prepared. Tom Brafy wasn't going to win with Freddie at the wheel. Neither was out-of-shaoe Baker.

2020 - COVID...drives us to the playoff...WINS A PLAYOFF game. One blown non-call...and one poor play on defense...away from the AFC Championship game. Top (5) QB from the bye to end of season.

2021 - Defense couldn't stop squat against the Chiefs at the end and then Baker tears his labrum and breaks a bone early in game (2). Injuries strike...the OBJ cancer gets cut out...COVID...more injuries...COVID. I mean what a perfect situation for a QB to succeed.

Some posters like to bag on Baker for not being Mr Comeback...and pretend to be completely un-phased by the number of times a last drive comeback was thwarted by someone OTHER than Baker. The TEAM overcame (3) INTS and totally sh^%y officiating throughout and were driving towards a missed FG...and the refs cemented the outcome of the game...again. What a delightfully perfect position to be in.

J/c

Another point that others have made as well: how in the heck do we think LeCounte on Adams with zero help is going to be successful?

yeah, I don’t think we will either. The off-season will be important.

Other than that - which is plenty bad - I thought the D was stellar. But that was a very egregious piece of coaching.

One last comment - I saw a stat about Baker being 2-14 in games where he has the ball in the 4thQ with a chance to win. It was presented as a nail in the coffin sort of stat that is irrefutable that Baker is a loser.

My question/comment is - How many games has Baker led the Browns from behind in the 4thQ - to take the lead with less than 5 minutes left on the clock, only to see the defense give up a game winning drive? . . . . I reckon I can think of at least 4 or 5 games.

Knowing how people hate Baker - I wonder how many of those 14 "Opportunities" were with less than a realistic amount of time and time outs on the clock. I mean getting the ball on your on 25 yard line with no time outs and 30 seconds on the clock needing a TD would statistically be included in that stat ... but the reality is something different.

I realize there is a large contingent of Browns' fans who think its a "loser mentality" to complain about officiating ... sour grapes, whining, agenda regarding a certain QB, whatever. I just want to clarify that I'm just asking them to call games within an 80-90% accuracy range, not looking for any favoritism towards my team. Just do your J-O-B, and call the game fair and square. Because right now, IMO, the NFL has a big problem with their officiating crews and its eroding public trust in their game.

Packers are on our 10 yard line and Woods Blitz's Rogers . He uses stone shoes Taki to do blitz ??? Thas the kind of calls that get me .

In the first quarter alone you had a phantom blockin the back ( never happened ) Flagrant holding on a WR and a face mask on Baker that wasn't called. That's was in the first quarter .

I hate complaining about officials too, but there were so many bad calls and no calls yesterday that were blatantly obvious, even to the announcers, it is becoming a farce..

Re: NFL refs agreed. The refs as a whole are not good. I also think that there are not enough on the field and that there has to be minimum fitness standards. The refs run a lot and far too often are not in a good position to make a call.

All of that being said the refs do not “have it in for the Browns”. While it is possible that something like gambling on games may be going on I think the vast majority are not involved in something illegal or fraudulent. They simply aren’t good enough.

It absolutely is a repeatable skill that requires solid end-of-game coaching and quality QB play... and I don't know that we have either.

Its a team, sport if you can attribute the loses to bad throws ,interceptions or bad decisions by Baker you can lay the blame on Baker. I am pretty sure you cant. Im pretty sure coaching is to blame on many of them as well as many other factors that Baker has no control over. Lets say maybe the refs made a bad call or did not call a penalty. How many of those games can be contributed to getting hosed by the refs. I can think of one it happened yesterday. So that wow stat can easily be unwowed with some examination of other factors out of Bakers control.

Out of the 8 losses we have ,we only got blown away in 2 of them. 23 by Arizona and 38 by the Pats. All the other games we lost by 6 points or less. 1@6 points 2@5, 1@4 and 2@2. This team is getting better just have a few things that need fixed. In my opinion, one is a kicker, a play caller, and a defensive coordinator. We fix those and get all our players back from injury and this covid crap and this team would be hard to beat. Just think about where we were a few years ago. It was depressing to watch the Browns. Now at least they are more fun to watch and we know they have a good chance to win.

Over the course of NFL history it has proven to not be a repeatable skill. Teams that win a bunch of close games one year fall back the next year. Teams that lost a bunch of close games usually win more games the next year.

And that's the Dawgtalker way. They complain when we don't let "Baker be Baker" and they complain when we do. If Stefanski let's Baker pass and we lose, it's Stefanski's fault. If he runs instead of letting Baker throw, it's Stefnanski's fault. No matter which way the wind blows, it's Stefanski's fault.

So you're saying even those guys rated just above Baker pretty much suck too?

I don't think you made the point you think you made.

So did you. You said so repeatedly on this very board. Remember, a 70% Baker was better than anything we had on the bench.


The wind blew in another direction just like your opinion is doing now. So much for "let Baker be Baker".

So these are your excuses for his last five weeks. Freddie? Which WR's and TE's were "dropping so many balls" yesterday?

I'm sure glad we look so much better now that the "OBJ cancer" is gone. The Rams must have great cancer doctors. There's a difference in having talent that your QB can't figure out how to use and blaming the talent for it. If you doubt that, see the Rams as an example.

Without the int's yesterday we win that game. Three first half int's led to 21 of the Packers 24 points. But I guess excuses sound better than game film.

Nope. They average QBs. They are not great. Baker this year is average. The real question is whether or not he can be better in the situation. It seemed last year and his first year that he could be. We’ll have to see.

Those guys are terrible.

You need to be more careful with your glee and finger pointing and who you constantly try to pick fights with.

Your first point about KS and Baker and whatever else makes NO FKING sense. It's you being you and trying to fight with someone for the sake of it. In my post to cfrs - I never said I did or didn't have faith in KS or how much faith. I didn't say Baker was or wasn't better than what we had on the bench. You are trying too damn hard to constantly ASSUME and place words and opinions where none were expressed. That's a YOU problem. It's a really awesome example of what you do all the time recently. My post was entirely about an apparent inconsistent position by cfrs ... there is not inconsistent pperspective from me - because I didn't offer one. cfrs said he intended to state 'he has a 100% confidence in KS coming back from a 1-3 hole' ... not what he wrote but it makes sense.

As for your second post - I've never written "Baker bbe Baker" - I've never written that Baker is neutered. . . . Again, you just want to fight so you write chit that posters never said to justify another stupid jibe.

What I have said - is our play calling has been too conservative. What I said about the GB game was that it was the best game KS has called all year. With the exception of the inexplainable last 3 plays of the day..... if you think those were good play calls and made sense ... say so. Defend it. Don't make up stuff and misrepresent or twist what others say (or completely didn't say). . . . and before you get your panties in a wad and write more BS - the difference between not being able to run on Raiders and running 3 times and punting vs running at 7+ yards per attempt versus GB actually matters. And I even commented that I liked the call on the first down to pass ..... what happens in the game ACTUALLY MATTERS.

Stefanski have baker many opportunities to go win this game. He failed. Stefanski let baker do his thing.

And this is what we got. Make all the excuses for baker y’all want, but ultimately it’s gonna be up to Berry and Stefanski on if we keep baker or not.

That 2-14 career stat for baker when the game is on the line is atrocious.

And why are we still talking about bakers sloppy ass mechanics and footwork in year 4? That’s embarrassing.

Baker threw 3 picks that were his fault. I give the last one up cause if the blatant PI, but you guys seem to gloss over the fact that the defender dropped a pick on the 2 point conversion and another drop in the 4th quarter. That easily could’ve been 5-6 picks for baker.

Never mind the routine throws that any average QB makes that he missed. Never mind him taking back to back sacks that put us out of field goal range.

His entire performance was hot garbage. No matter what excuses you make, baker mayfield this season has been hot garbage.

So "Stefanski did good until it actually counted" is a compliment? I never knew that. Thanks for clarifying.

I actually thought you read the board. People have claimed that Stefanski has stifled Baker. That he won't "let Baker be Baker". That he is hindering Bakers progress. that "70% of Baker is better than anything we have on the bench". That he won't let baker call plays at the LOS and all of this is because Stefanski doesn't know how to use Baker. Since you seem to think these things didn't happen, selective blindness is the only logical explanation I can come up with.

People say lots of things ... if you are happy quoting other people and using what they said in a specific reply to me, that says a lot. You quoted me and then "countered" my comment with attributing to me what others have said. Yeah. Makes a ton of sense. It was and is weak. You can either own it and accept that what you just did was wrong... or keep trying to create a new spin. Either way - I am done. You are not being sincere or honest on either thread about Baker. End of story. We agree Baker needs to play much much better. Leave it there.

Did anyone really expect that game to end any other way?

I know it's frustrating as hell, but we know what we are. A team that can never come up with a clutch play at the end of a game when it really matters.

I love the ones who say, "If we had a different quarterback we could have won this game," but it kinda works other ways too, doesn't it? If we had better receivers we could have won that game too, right. Do you think if we had Evans, Godwin, and Gronk we'd be 7-8? Then there's those who think running Chubb every down is the answer.

I'm telling you, get Baker some weapons and he will thrive. Just wait and see.

[Sung to the famous Christmas tune]
"It's beginning to look a lot like... WWE.

Perhaps someone a lot more knowledgeable than I could educate us about the NFL's quality assurance program regarding NFL refs. I know that every call they make is reviewed by the league, but can you tell me this: can refs be fined for egregious bad/missed calls?

I’d take Baker hitting wide open receivers.

On the final drive, I wonder how many people were thinking to themselves, "We are going to win this game" or "Please don't throw an interception".

I would like to see a poll of fans who have the utmost confidence in Baker to consistently lead his team on a game winning drive.

I'd take open receivers.

I thought we would get in position for an attempt at a game-winning FG. (Whether Naggar makes it is another story.) If we had, and if Naggar missed a 30-35 yarder, how many posters would say Baker failed once again to lead us on a game winning final drive?

I found it very peculiar we didn't run once. Only down 2 points a FG would win, but the problem was not really having a kicker. My guess with McLaughlin kicking we felt we needed a TD. But with 3 timeouts why not run one? I thought we were set up to win. That was a good throw by Baker.

We desperately need a #1 WR.

Doesnt the nfl review turnovers? and pass interference in the final minutes after the saints? debacle?

With the team the Browns currently have, I don't think you have the luxury of time to draft weapons that will develop with the QB.

One could make the argument that the Browns actually had one; but that's dependent upon what your opinion is on the matter.

What about the WR's performance in this game were bad?

It doesn't take long.

DPJ isn't a #1 WR. Maybe someday, but not yesterday. Not today.

Let me explain what you have chosen to do in hopes that it will help awaken you.

In the last offensive play the Browns made, Baker threw a pass which clearly would have hit a WR who had position on the defender. If you disagree with this it appears you believe you know more about the situation than the actual defender on the field knew since he felt compelled to interfere with the WR. The ref blew the call. Either the complete pass or the PI call would have put us in FG range having three timeouts remaining with just under a minute left.

Your answer to this? It was bad play calling. If this isn't a prime example of how deeply down the rabbit hole you and those who have "created" this false narrative have fallen to make excuses why it all comes down to the fault of Stefanski I feel you are all beyond help.

Device, we have open WR's. We just need someone with the ability to find them. BTW- OBJ just caught his fourth TD with the Rams.

i know, i know. You're all tired of hearing about OBJ. We were tired of hearing some of you using OBJ as another excuse for Baker too. But that never stopped you.

Lamar Jackson in 2020 26 TDS and 9 INTS record of 11-4 plus 1000 yds
Roethlisberger in 2020 33TDS and 10INTS record of 12-3

The rest of the guys have similar or slightly better numbers than Baker this year. He is average this year at best.

OBJ never wanted to be here. When he was traded here he wanted to be with the Rams. He worked like an undermotivated employee. If you've ever been around one you would know those bring other people down. The complaining gets old, the second guessing gets old.

Also OBJ is not the #1 in LA. He was here. He has Cupp to help get him open.

Can you now get off this stupid dead horse?

Sure I can. Just as easily as those blaming OBJ for the ills of this offense did. "We are better without OBJ".

No, we're not.

According to PFF we have three or more open receivers something like third most in the league.

That does not suit their agenda.

If he didn't want to be here we are better without him.

The OBJ effect lingers, but we are better without him.

So we are seeing the lingering effects of OBJ.

So you are saying you've never been around a soul sucking co-worker?

It takes time to get past it. We will but it does take time.

You laugh and snark when you actually have no real point.

No point. You mean like saying "The OBJ effect lingers"? It's kind of funny. Every player on this team that has said anything about OBJ has said nothing but positive things about him. Only the media and fans have made a story that suits their purpose. And yes, that's a valid point. Like it or not.

Making things up with no evidence to support it is a convenient way to paint any picture you want.

Well since they said it on the Internet it MUST be true. Have you actually been part of a team? In the real world, not in your evidently fantasy world where you are always right, teams can be fragile. Someone doesn't have to be a cancer to be bad for a team and their actions can have effects long after they are gone. I don't expect anyone on this team to say he was an issue, much like I don't expect anyone to toss Baker under a bus for throwing four interceptions in a game.

Frankly if OBJ was such a dangerous weapon for us and the critical team player you seem to think he was then Berry should be out. He got rid of THE piece for nothing.




Looking in the mirror while posting?

I think all of you “fans” need to stop bitching and moaning and look at where things stand. Assuming the chiefs do not collapse on the Steelers tonight, despite all the wailing and gnashing of teeth, we will be playing meaningful football in January. That’s right! Meaningful football in January!

Would I like to be in control of my own destiny ?? Of course. But if I cannot, I cannot think of too many better situations to be in than ours. If next week the rams beat the ravens and the chiefs beat the bengals and we hold serve against the Steelers, then week 18 we are playing for the division. We do not need Jacksonville to beat someone. Both those scenarios can play out. There are a lot of teams that would like to be able to say that but cannot. But despite that 90% of the posts are criticizing our players and coaches.

Years ago browns fans supported their team and their guys. We lived in a place called believeland. Now we have way too many fans who have moved to quittersville. They give up on our team and our players. Not me. Like tug McGraw said back in 69, “ ya gotta believe”.

One question for the experts. I know if we finish in a two way tie with the bengals, our head to head record gives it to us. What if it is a3 way tie with the ravens in it? How does that work??

GO BROWNS!!!!

division record I think

That is correct, and we would win. We aren't as far out of this as people think.

Who is they?

We were throwing the ball fairly well against the Raiders, the run game wasn't working well at all... so we needed a first down to win the game and we went run, run, run... right into the teeth of the defense, 3 times. And that wasn't Stefanski...

We were running the ball great against the Packers, Baker looked good at times but overall kind of shakey... so we needed to keep a drive moving for about 20 more yards and we went throw, throw, throw...

I like Stefanski, I think he is technically a pretty good coach. I think he knows his stuff and can come up with a really good plan.. but after watching him for 2 years now, I really question his ability to "feel" the game.. I don't know what it is, I don't think I could do it any better.. but some coaches just seem to have a knack for dialing up just the right play at the right time and he doesn't seem to have that..

We would win the division based on division game record amongst the 3 teams.

Ravens 1-3 against Browns and Bengals.
Bengals 2-2 against Browns and Ravens.
Browns 3-1 against Bengals and Ravens.

As predicted, Bengals crushed the Ravens and Chiefs crushed the Steelers.

Now just need Chiefs to beat Bengals, Rams to beat Ravens, and Browns to beat Steelers. Then it is winner take all against Bengals in the last week.

It's not hard is it? And I think you are being very generous with regards how well Baker was playing. And I just checked, 8.8 yards per run. Let that sink in.

Last time I checked he was calling plays... soooo... that was on KS

Van Pelt called the Raiders game that was referred to

j/c…

Wouldn't that tweet be more impactful (and accurate) if the pass was completed? I'd say that was a win for MG and the D. Every QB could throw the ball in under 2 seconds if not being hit and no completitions was the goal?

It was a perfect pass and the best receiver in the league dropped it.

I was shocked when he dropped it. Greedy got immediately frozen on that play and was no where near his guy. We were fortunate there.

Well we have our own, NO/Rams fiasco, where a WR is mugged by a CB, and the non call changes the game outcome. Stuff happens. The NFL was supposed to clean this up, but obviously it was not successful. There has to be a way to improve the refereeing, but the non call issue is just as bad as the bad call.

Regarding Baker, the season became a struggle, the moment the shoulder was hurt. I just don’t understand the Baker commentary, when we are not evaluating a healthy Baker. That is the NFL, you need good QB play to win consistently, and that has not been the case this year.

The D has gotten better this year, and that is something to build upon.

Hopefully the surgery goes well, but we will have to wait till next year again.

It was a very good pass. That's true. Not sure if he threw it early and Devante wasn't expecting it or didn't pick it up? idk.

Yes we probably will have to wait for next year again. 57 years and running. 57 years ago today was our last championship. Long, long time to wait for another one.

Is that a sad attempt at deflecting from the absurd claim that "The OBJ effect lingers"? Because it isn't working.

Would you care to explain how that has anything to do with our 2-4 record over the past six weeks? Or how we sit in last place in our division?

Let me tell you how his feel works sometimes. Rather than do exactly what your opponents expect you to do and are prepared to defend, you do the opposite. Baker had not had an int. the entire second half.

The play was working so well the defender felt compelled to interfere with the WR because the ball was right on target and our WR had position on him. The fact the ref didn't call an obvious PI or that the defender committed the penalty was not the fault of Stefanski. The play called was a good one. Baker delivered the ball accurately. Yet that's not what those determined to blame the loss on him are saying.

Since this one seemed to be ignored, let's try it again.......

Let me explain what you have chosen to do in hopes that it will help awaken you.

In the last offensive play the Browns made, Baker threw a pass which clearly would have hit a WR who had position on the defender. If you disagree with this it appears you believe you know more about the situation than the actual defender on the field knew since he felt compelled to interfere with the WR. The ref blew the call. Either the complete pass or the PI call would have put us in FG range having three timeouts remaining with just under a minute left.

Your answer to this? It was bad play calling. If this isn't a prime example of how deeply down the rabbit hole you and those who have "created" this false narrative have fallen to make excuses why it all comes down to the fault of Stefanski I feel you are all beyond help.

Device, we have open WR's. We just need someone with the ability to find them. BTW- OBJ just caught his fourth TD with the Rams. I'll ask you again, what is it about the WR's that looked so poorly today? It has been shown that Baker has the third most open targets on pass plays in the league by PFF. Yet you keep blaming them.

Do we have stud WR's? No we don't. But can you explain how in this game what the WR's did so poorly?

This was directed to mgh and later in the post to Device, but anyone is more than welcome to address it.

Didnt they decide you can throw a challenge flag for pass interference late in the game after the NO fiasco?

If that is the case, KS should have done it.

I'm thinking the league did away with the PI review after one year, but I'm not sure. Either way, I think at that point of the game (final 2 mins) it would have to be a booth review.

The pass interference challenge rule was only in effect for the 2019 season. It was a dismal failure and calls were rarely overturned. It was not "renewed" for the 2020 season.

I feel that there should have absolutely been some PI calls reversed back in 2019, but the Refs wanted to prove a point that their decisions are infallible, and so nothing was reversed and talking heads and decision makers decided that it was a failure.

BTW PIT...OBJ notified the Browns front office during the summer before the season and while still rehabbing his knee after surgery, that he wanted the Browns front office trade him. OBJ didn't want to play in Cleveland and it was said he had become a malcontent in the locker room before his daddy and lbj forced the Browns to cut him loose.




Watching the replay of the Packers game, I noticed something about the way they were playing pass defense. The Packers were making contact with our Receivers after the 5 yard limit but well before the ball got to our WR. It didn't look like blatant interference but if our Receiver is running a timing route and our QB is supposed to be throwing to "a window" that is supposed to be a safe throw...the timing is off and the pass looks horrible and can be intercepted.

I agree with you on OBJ. He was our best WR. I also think we're better without him at this point. Did he get open? He was open but not where he should have been. We don't need stud receivers in this offense. We just need receivers to get separation and get open. I don't think you'll see us ever pay big bucks for one. I believe Landry's days are numbered as well.

I'm not getting into a hog calling contest about the state of the QB. I don't think he's been the best he be. I'm not saying he's flawless and everyone else is the problem so don't make it that. I don't believe for a second that we've seen the best of Baker. He's got things to figure out but I think it would be foolish to get rid of him at this point.

I think Baker stays. There isn't much better out there as an upgrade at this point. There's a reason why we keep putting him out there on the field despite being hurt, he's still our best chance to win. I understand the frustration. We'll be fine.

The odd thing about all of this, is that in the end, both of us want to see him be our starter again next year. I think you may have more faith that he will somehow turn it all around while with me it's more hope that he will.

There are a few points we disagree on however.

First is about your comment, " Did he get open? He was open but not where he should have been." I think considering his production in L.A. that's an odd thing for people to continue to believe. I mean it could be true but even so, there's usually a chemistry built up between a QB and his WR's. To a point where the QB can almost read what a WR he's played with for a long time is going to do before he does it. Their tendencies. I mean how many times have we watched and announcers even said, "The WR kept working to get open"? Obviously those WR's weren't "where they were supposed to be". If a WR is covered his goal is to get open. I'm not sure why everyone considers that a negative?

The second point is this... "There isn't much better out there as an upgrade at this point." I'm not quite sure what we have in Baker as of yet. Just as yourself and what I've seen from most Browns fans, we have him under contract for next year and giving him an opportunity to return healthy to try to get a clearer picture is something I certainly promote. But if after next season this FO decides to move on I think they will have determined we would be stuck in a consistent state of mediocrity if we continue with Baker. At that juncture I don't feel you can use " There isn't much better out there as an upgrade at this point" to settle for middle of the road without trying to improve.

The third point is this... "We just need receivers to get separation and get open." As has been shown, PFF ranks us third in the league as having open WR's on pass plays. And I think often times the confusion lies in what fans believe "open" means in the NFL. I don't think it means what people thinks it means. I don't know if you still have the Packers game available for you to watch or not. But if you do I would like for you to take a closer look. Baker wasn't accurate all of the time in that game. He had passes that were off the mark and some that sailed on him. But if you look at the times he was accurate you'll notice something. He threw passes on the money in "NFL windows". In the NFL if you have a half step on your defender and body position, you're open. We see it week in and week out by quality QB's around the league. They throw over the inside shoulder. The outside shoulder. They consider a WR with body position as open. Yes, that's open. And when Baker was being accurate against the Packers, he saw them as open and completed those passes. All we need now is to see that consistently.

"It was said"? I'm not sure how you think terrible production would help his image to the rest of the league if he was seeking a trade.

Since it seems you still have the Packers game to watch, look how when Baker was accurate he threw into very tight windows. That's what open looks like in the NFL. What you're describing indicates Baker can't see the field after the ball is snapped and just wings it to where a WR is supposed to be without surveying the field. I don't think that's how things are supposed to work.

Pit...you obviously don't get the point I'm making and you would need to go back to last season to see the difference in Baker's game comparing 2020 to 2021. I seriously doubt that you are into the game enough to look for answers without continuing your personal vendetta.

To you and mgh,

Regarding your comments/responses on OBJ... OBJ is a good WR. Oft-injured/nicked up but very good. He just wasn't good for us. I say that with the Diggs story of him getting out of Minny in mind in that it probably wasn't going to work well even before the QB-related struggles. It is what it is... oh well.

Regarding Mayfield and moving forward. To mgh's point, I do think we'd have to swing some sort of NFL-shaking blockbuster trade in order to upgrade on Baker this offseason. He's good enough that improving on him is going to be very difficult and pricey. That said, I'm starting to wonder if, much like OBJ, Baker is good but just not good for us. I've pointed it out before, but that first-half Baltimore film session Warner did briefly highlighted a very basic footwork gaffe Mayfield had that threw off his timing on an incompletion. He's still got basic footwork/technique issues to squash, and this is after going through Footwork 101 when KS and Van Pelt arrived. Prior to that, Mayfield made a comment about not wanting to work with the 'broom sweepers' (throwing technique gurus). Much was made about that comment at the time, but I wonder if his injuries this year ARE a big deal, but only in that they're exaggerating some of his technical flaws. Mayfield has shown that he can do it all, even the things that people say he "can't/won't" do. He just fails to do them consistently. I think that final statement earns him the 1 final year to make an argument for a lucrative extension here.
And regarding next year and beyond, I think it would be negligent for Berry to do nothing with our QB room. It's borderline criminal that we have a backup that's as expensive as Keenum is, and we still basically didn't use him with how banged up Baker has been at times.

OBJ with Cleveland and OBJ with Los Angeles have been virtually the same. Thru the 6 games with the Rams and 6 games here he 3 more catches for 16 yards. His yards per catch were actually HIGHER in Cleveland than with LA. So one could argue he was actually more productive here.

I would agree that Baker threw some bad passes. The second int off his back foot floated over Jarvis. We shouldn't have been in that situation due to a missed call but that's neither here nor there.

Finally someone on air said it, I believe Aikman. A couple of Baker's passes would be caught if the receiver didn't run up field and instead went for the ball. But like he said that's all about how they are coached. Passes to Chubb and I think Njoku that looked like bad passes were with them running up field. But if they run towards the sideline those passes are on target every time.

And I'm not saying Baker is without fault. He is a good quarterback and he needs to stay. It's the people who are woe is me, our qb sucks, or team sucks, blah blah blah.... so dramatic. And these death threats? Some fans are being ridiculous.

Your response is laughable at best. I have always given Baker credit when he's played well. I have supported him since he's been here. Maybe it's you who needs to look at the comments from last year to see that. Just because you try and blame everyone else when Baker does poorly certainly doesn't make you a better educated fan. I hope Baker turns things around next season. I want to give him next year to do that.

Your lack of objectivity doesn't make you understand the game better.

So your answer to his inaccuracy is that the WR's should have ran to where Baker threw the ball rather than Baker throwing to where the WR's were going? I'm saying we have seen good Baker and bad Baker. And like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get.

Keeping this general, because that's how I went into it this week.

I wanted to see this team play competitively, and not go rumps-up submissive in a 35-6 type blowout (the kinds we remember, oh so well- am I right?).
I wanted to see some spark on O that I haven't seen in weeks (-got some of that-).
I wanted to see a level of performance that made me feel that this team can earn their way forward with a Monday night win over PIT.

This is what they accomplished, in the most general sense:

With our less-than ideal performance, we took the #1 seed to the last minute in a game we only lost by 2... after spotting them 21 off some uncharacteristic 'Christmas gifts.'
All but 3 of GB's points came off short field/turnovers. That means GB's only "earned" full drive was limited to a FG. This D played Rogers pretty well overall, and actually clamped down on him in the 2nd half (three consecutive 3-&-outs, if I recall?).

I also saw this O put together some sustained, rhythm-based drives that transpired well after our first scripted drive of the game. Browns moved the ball on GBP.

Most salient point: I didn't expect a win, so I wasn't devastated by the loss. Matter of fact, I saw enough in the way CLE was playing to feel better about their next matchup. Healthier/more starters back in the lineup/full week of practice... I don't care what any stat/betting line says, if the Browns can play 15% better next week than they did against GB, this next game is theirs for the taking. In convincing fashion.

For the past 2-3 years, we've been talking about a change in the culture at 76 Groza. This next game will be a strong indicator if that is true.
A 2020 season of NFL Covid Weirdness, followed by a 2021 season of rampant injury/NFL Covid Weirdness, and here we are: playing Pittsburgh at the end of the season in their house (for the second time in as many years) . If the FO, Coaches and team can't get it up for #7's last home game at The Ketchup Station, they should expect to get owned by PIT for another 20+ years.

This is the moment.
And The Stoolz have never been so ripe for a nationally-televised "changing of the guard."

Culture is created in pivotal games like these.


.02

All I can say is that I hope you are right.

Not only did Aikman say that - and it was an un-characteristic Aikman day because normally he ain't got nothing nice to say about anything Browns - Kurt Warner stated the same thing in his breakdown of one of the games. (yes it was a breakdown of one half of the game). Both QB's stated that the way all receivers are supposed to run those route is to break flat - out to the sidelines, not rounded with any 'upfield' after the cut.

As for where Baker is supposed to throw the ball - where the receiver is running or where they are supposed to run? In this offense and anything that is a timing throw - you always throw it to a spot where they are supposed to be. We talk about throwing receivers open? Well that is absolutely how you can do it. I don't know about KS, the Browns and how they are coached ... I don't know if they rounded routes instead of flattening them ... I do know two pretty decent QB's have stated the same thing regards how they believe the route is supposed to be run.

Did you notice how in both cases it was QB's defending another QB? I'm certainly glad they knew the Browns playbook.

Route running is route running and I think 2 HOF QBs have pretty good insight as to whether a route is run properly or not. Has nothing to do with a playbook.

Yeah, the way the play is drawn up in the playbook has nothing to do with anything.

Two HOF QBs just Baker homers and making excuses.

Screw those guys. Let's find a rando Baker haters with a Twitter feed and a still shot of a wr with 2 yards of separation to prove Baker is a BUM

So the coach is responsible for the fact that either the WR or the QB, which ever it happens to be, doesn't know the play that is called? So much for the personal responsibility of the players involved. The thought process around here seems to all the WR's have no clue where they are supposed to be but Baker does. And of course this mythical, "the route can only be run one way" and NFL coaches never variate from that. If that were true half way through that route every defender in the league would know exactly where the WR was going and no WR would have any chance to get open. It defies logic.

Every route has variables based on the play call. You can believe something that makes no sense if you like.

I think we disagree. I think Kurt Warner disagrees with you based on his comments. Troy Aiken disagrees too.

All good.

Don't argue with him. 2 pro bowl qb's stated things. They know nothing. They don't know the playbook. Only the magnificent knows the play book and can challenge the pro bowlers. Don't you know?

Stop yelling at people to get off the lawn and leave the football threads to actual talking about football and not a daily girl fight in every thread. smfh.

Troy Aikman hasn't played in the NFL for 20 years. He played for one team. That's the extent of the NFL playbooks he has actually seen. Warner hasn't played for 12 years and saw the playbooks of 3 teams total.

If you believe that this tells them the variations of every route in every NFL playbook you have a screw loose. As I said, if there are no variations to that route, this means every defender in the NFL knows exactly where every WR is going based on the beginning of that route. That idea alone is insane.

Every announcer on these games has tons of time to fill. They say all kinds of things. Some of it makes no sense. This is one such case.

Whatever you say Coach B.

How much NFL experience and how many NFL teams do you have on your resume?

That's what I thought.

What I'm not naive enough to believe is that there aren't variations that can be called on every route a WR runs. It's really quite simple. If every route or any route didn't have variations to them, every defender in the NFL would know exactly where a WR was going once he solved the route called. Defenders would have a field day if that were true.

So you didn't actually answer the question.

You deflected. This is my surprised face.

Oh I answered. You just didn't like the answer and have no logical comeback for it. So I'm not surprised either.

I would suggest that 2 nlf quarterbacks - all stats at that - have a better knowledge of football in general, and route running specifically, than a guy that's never seen an nfl playbook. Period.

Did I miss your NFL resume?

See you deflected, that's not answering. But you don't like getting called on it, so you deflect again.

Honestly I think you have to look at the specific route that was being discussed and what was said and determine if it sounds legit and if variables and variations might make sense.

The play called was a Flat route to the RB and an out route to the TE. In both cases the QB commentary was that the route was coached for the receiver to run a flat - 90 degree route towards the side line. In both cases the receiver ran a "rounded" route to the side line - so going out, but still upfield. In both cases Baker is throwing and releasing the ball as the receiver is making or has just made the cut, both times the ball would have been 'perfect' for the 90 degree route the commentators suggested. Both times there is a defender with inside leverage pursuing the receiver and on their inside shoulder.

The idea of allowing variations makes no sense to me - if the defender is on your inside shoulder - going "out" at 90 degrees gives the biggest window for the QB to throw to. Running a slightly rounded route reduces the angle for the QB, allowing the defender to make a play easier ..... and it would seem the idea of running a 'variation' where the route run is 5-6-7-8-9 degrees off the simple direct out to the sidelines would introduce a very subjective route that would be very easy for every receiver to run differently.

There's no Baker homerism involved when I believe the commentators when they say an out route, flat route is always coached to be 90 degrees and straight out to the sidelines.

What you seem to have missed is that this same route is run the same exact way multiple times across the NFL on a pretty regular basis. But trying to pretend that doesn't happen in order to act like a pack of jackals seems to be more popular than that reality. But you guys carry on and pretend that's not true. Because you know.... "But Troy Aikman said...."

Only thing I missed is you qualifications to say that two NFL HOF QBs are wrong and you are right.

Please, let us know your qualification. You owned multiple footballs for 50 years?

I have eyes. Do you?

I have ears too, and I listen to experts.

Then you must believe that your eyes have been lying to you. This same route gets rounded off every week by multiple WR's all across the NFL. But don't believe what you see.

So that is in your expert NFL opinion?

Where's that resume?

I had no idea you were blind and can't actually watch the games. I'll pray for you.

Notice how you never answer the actual question, you just deflect?

Do you have an NFL resume or not?

No more or no less than anyone who has commented on this thread. That includes you.

I didn't see anyone else indicate that Aikman or Warner didn't know what they were talking about because they never looked at the playbook for that specific play.

You inferered you were an expert since you questions the expert opinion of two NFL QBs. Knowing your qualification for your differing opinion is important as we know their qualifications, or they are easily found. Part of having an expert opinion IS knowing why you should be considered an expert. Since you now indicate that you don't have any NFL experience we know you were just looking to disagree with someone to argue a point to let us know you are brilliant. Next time maybe you should only try to baffle us with your "brilliance" and not denigrate the opinion of experts.

That is all, you can go out to recess now.

Keep claiming that someone needs to be an expert to see this same route is being run the same way all across the NFL on a weekly basis. Keep pretending what you are seeing is somehow a fantasy that doesn't actually exist because, "Aikam said so". I suggest you either aren't paying attention when you watch NFL games or you don't watch many of them. Your incessant belief that you need to be an expert to understand something that happens often all across the NFL on a weekly basis is hilarious.

I never said one needed to be an expert to watch football or have an opinion. You said that Aikman and Warner were wrong because they hadn't seen the playbook. a playbook you haven't seen either but you have a different opinion.

I will take the expert opinion over yours. Especially the experts who watched the game (Aikman, ya know calling it) or Warner (breaking down film, ya know watching it).

So instead of deflecting and saying I said things I didn't just understand you are not the expert and they are. That doesn't mean they are always right, but they do have the benefit of being the expert you do not have.

I wouldn't hire a mason to rebuild my chimney that has only ever sat in front of a fireplace.

This is where you get to have your last word. I don't need to wrestle the pig any more.

Wrestle the pig? Yes, when all else fails resort to personal BS. I'm sure that must make you feel more manly.

You either believe that WR's all across the league run this route the wrong way on a fairly regular basis or you don't. Even a mason who has only sat in front of a fireplace can look at a chimney and tell you the brick was laid crooked. It's because he can see.

Unless you have actually seen a teams playbook, you have no idea how a play is designed. If you think differently, more power to you.

Nice. I explained in detail why the QB's comments were correct - and your response is deflection and insults. I won't bother in future.

I did notice that insisting the route can be run in variable ways - which was the point at one time - has shifted.

You are wrong. Give it up.