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Posted By: Moxdawg Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 03/31/11 07:40 PM


Texas Judge Under Fire for Offering Convicts Christian Alternatives | Print | E-mail
Written by Raven Clabough
Wednesday, 30 March 2011 16:15
0

A newly elected Houston judge has come under harsh criticism for “thinking outside the box.” After Judge John Clinton proposed that convicts in his court read a Christian book and write a book report on it as an alternative to community service, critics such as the American Civil Liberties Union censured the idea, forcing the judge to retract his proposal. Fox News explains:

Judge John Clinton, a former police officer who was elected in January to preside over Harris County Criminal Court No. 4, offered nine people the chance to avoid community service last week by instead reading The Heart of the Problem, a Bible study book by Henry Brandt and Kerry L. Skinner that "proselytizes Christianity and advocates turning to God to solve problems," according to a March 29 letter from officials at the Texas branch of the American Civil Liberties Union.

KHOU.com describes the Christian book as “a Bible study that touts itself as a workbook that provides insights for victorious Christian living.”

The judge's proposal was particularly geared for those charged with misdemeanors ranging from domestic assault to drug possession. The offenders were asked to return in a few months to discuss the book with the judge.

Clinton explained his philosophy: “I felt it as a calling. I’m just trying to think outside the box. Trying to mold the punishment to help these individuals, instead of set them up to fail.”

Not everyone viewed the recommendation in the same way as the judge.

Houston criminal defense attorney Dan Gerson asserted:

That is illegal, unconstitutional, and unfair. We are offended, as far as preaching from the bench, especially by requiring people, or asking people that they perform religious study in lieu of serving their sentence.

Houston criminal defense attorney Brett Podolsky does not regard Clinton’s intentions as malicious, but concludes that the judge has an “apparent misunderstanding of the First Amendment.”

The ACLU targeted the judge’s actions, commending him for “thinking outside of the box” but labeling his proposal “inappropriate and unconstitutional.”

Though Judge Clinton believed his recommendation could potentially have helped put the defendants in his court on the right track, the criticism has since caused him to revise his plan: "I have stopped the book," he indicated, "and [am] looking for something similar that I can offer to everyone.”

Clinton has also adamantly denied accusations that he is attempting to impose his religious beliefs on anyone, explaining,

All I was trying to do was help. I was told about the book. I received the book. I read the book. I thought, "Hey, this is a great book." Again, me thinking based on my faith, not thinking in general.

While the ACLU is delighted that Judge Clinton has since stopped the practice of offering the alternative option to community service, Lisa Graybill, legal director for the Texas ACLU affiliate, contends that it never should have been posed as an option in the first place:

It is inexplicable to me how anyone with a law degree could think that what this judge was doing was constitutional. Thinking with his faith is not what he’s elected to do. When he dons the robe and takes the bench, his obligation is to think as a judge.

Graybill asserts that an investigation should still be conducted by the presiding judge of the county’s criminal courts, Judge Sherman Ross, adding:

It takes a lot to surprise me and this surprised even me. It’s the most egregious case I’m aware of, assuming the facts are as reported to us.

Ross, however, has indicated that he will not conduct an investigation, but has since discussed Clinton’s “inappropriate” behavior. “Technically, Graybill is correct,” he commented. “In Clinton’s defense, being on the bench for less than four months, he’s been experimenting with a number of things that help in the rehabilitation process. That said, I did have a chat with him and we both agreed that although not unethical, it was inappropriate and he understands completely.”

Judge Ross added that he believes Clinton never intended to impose his religious beliefs on anyone and contends that Clinton was simply trying “to do the right thing.”

Closing the discussion, Ross declared, “We’re here to enforce man’s law.”

Not everyone was displeased with Clinton’s proposal. For example, Houston criminal defense attorney Stanley Schneider asserts that Clinton should be praised for the idea:

I think this is a man that we really need to get behind. Anyone who wants to take the initiative, and trying to do something to help people in his courtroom to succeed in life, he’s someone we need to applaud.

As far those offenders already working on the Christian reading and book report, Clinton indicates that they may choose something else if they prefer.

New American

Thought this was interesting
Posted By: Pdawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 03/31/11 08:02 PM
Couldn't AA also be considered the same way? I have no idea what is in this book but I am leery about how it is portrayed as a Bible study guide. The judge did the right thing imo by reversing course.

btw.. I think Lisa Graybill is an ass.
Posted By: PStu24 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 03/31/11 08:12 PM
I also know that while this could be seen as a violation of separation of church and state ... if you are assigned community service (at least when I lived in PA) for any reason ... whether it was for high school graduation or punishment for things like breaking community curfews or getting in X amount of trouble at school ... you were aloud to do that community service at any church and were allowed to have the paster/priest/reverend sign off on your papers.

IMO its just a tricky issue and can probably be debated multiple ways over considering when you look at history (and especially ours) all of our laws were influenced by the laws of the church ... that's more or less the first law /government forms ... from the ones found in the old testament of the bible when god passed the law onto moses ...

and whether or not you actually believe in said law, it's important to remember that others did. And they did so strongly enough that that's how they created our legal system ... and then they wonder why we have problems trying to keep religion seperate from our laws...?
Posted By: Moxdawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 03/31/11 09:28 PM
That's my only issue. Not knowing what is in the book but overall the idea was alright if you ask me
Posted By: SaintDawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 01:38 AM
What if that book was just one of many that was an option? Maybe choose from a humanist or a secularly oriented book of success and goal acheiving? Maybe include a Dale Carnegie book? What would be so bad then?
Posted By: BCbrownie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 01:57 AM
Next time I'm in trouble,I hope someone reminds me not to call one these stupid Defense Attys.I'll gladly write a book report.To hell with the
aclu and my rights.
Posted By: The Collector Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 02:16 AM
If there were a couple different options... I don't think it's a bad idea.

The report though would have to fit the crime. I'm talking about 20 pages single spaced. Part of the criteria.. would have to explain to me if the book actually had an effect on their life in anyway.
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 03:53 AM
Quote:

Next time I'm in trouble,I hope someone reminds me not to call one these stupid Defense Attys.I'll gladly write a book report.To hell with the
aclu and my rights.



That was my first thought.. I can see the criminal in his 40th hour of community service picking up trash in the hot sun... "I could have done what? A stupid book report?"
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:17 AM
Great, state-sponsored religion.

What is this judge going to do next? I know, he's going to tell all non-Christians that in order to avoid jail sentences they must convert or face the consequences!
Posted By: PETE314 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 11:47 AM
And ignorance raises its ugly head once again....

You mean as opposed to your idea...State sponsored atheism which is what we have now???....You seem to forget that the right towards religion is a right to CHOOSE....and these people were not FORCED to do the report.....they were given the OPTION to do so. In other words...they could CHOOSE to do it or another sentance.




------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My only issue is the same as what others have brought up. The content of the book, the selection of books. Was it strictly Christian? Or did they have a choice to report from a book from other religions such as Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, etc.....
Posted By: Buckeyed11 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 11:53 AM
Quote:

Great, state-sponsored religion.

What is this judge going to do next? I know, he's going to tell all non-Christians that in order to avoid jail sentences they must convert or face the consequences!




what does the word "offer" mean to you?

i can help you
Posted By: Pdawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 12:05 PM
Charlie

link
Posted By: Pdawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 01:12 PM
Quote:

Great, state-sponsored religion.

What is this judge going to do next? I know, he's going to tell all non-Christians that in order to avoid jail sentences they must convert or face the consequences!




No. If you bothered to read the article you would know that he had changed what he was doing when the issue was brought up. He realized what he did was wrong.

He will continue to think outside of the box to come up with a better solution then we have now.
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 02:04 PM
Quote:

No. If you bothered to read the article you would know that he had changed what he was doing when the issue was brought up. He realized what he did was wrong.

He will continue to think outside of the box to come up with a better solution then we have now.



What do we need that for? The current system is working so well...
Posted By: no_logo_required Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 02:32 PM
Quote:

My only issue is the same as what others have brought up. The content of the book, the selection of books. Was it strictly Christian? Or did they have a choice to report from a book from other religions such as Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, etc.....




agreed. and perhaps a couple self-help authors in there as well so it's not strictly a religious exercise.
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 02:43 PM
Did any of these people even think to counter offer the judge and say "I'd like to take you up on that but I'd rather do it with a different book." or did they just throw a fit first?
Posted By: no_logo_required Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 02:47 PM
Quote:

Did any of these people even think to counter offer the judge and say "I'd like to take you up on that but I'd rather do it with a different book." or did they just throw a fit first?




sounded like the 'fit' was thrown not by the people but by lawyers who heard about it and figured they could make some $$$/publicity out of it.
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 02:49 PM
Quote:

sounded like the 'fit' was thrown not by the people but by lawyers who heard about it and figured they could make some $$$/publicity out of it.



Wish I was in the room when the judges found out they "won"... "Good news, I got that stupid judges offer to read a book and write a report thrown out based on first amendment grounds.. now you get to do 50 hours of community service."
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 04:40 PM
Quote:

No. If you bothered to read the article you would know that he had changed what he was doing when the issue was brought up. He realized what he did was wrong.

He will continue to think outside of the box to come up with a better solution then we have now.




No, I did read the article and that is why I said what I said. His thinking outside the box involves combining church and state into state-sponsored religion. Atheists, like myself, would be thrown in jail unless they agreed that Christianity is "the answer".

His thinking outside "the box" involved endorsing religion. Now, he says he's back to the drawing board. He'll still find a way to throw in religion.
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 05:07 PM
Quote:

Atheists, like myself, would be thrown in jail unless they agreed that Christianity is "the answer".



First, they weren't in his court because they weren't Christian, they were in his court because they were criminals... second, nobody was thrown in jail for being an athiest.... third, nobody had to agree to anything, you just had to read a book and write a report...

had it been me, I would have read a book on the joy of marxism or the truth of global warming and written the report even though both of them are wrong.
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 05:09 PM
Quote:

First, they weren't in his court because they weren't Christian, they were in his court because they were criminals... second, nobody was thrown in jail for being an athiest.... third, nobody had to agree to anything, you just had to read a book and write a report...

had it been me, I would have read a book on the joy of marxism or the truth of global warming and written the report even though both of them are wrong.




It is about the principle of it.
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 05:14 PM
Furthermore,

You commit the crime, you do the time. IF your crime is minimal enough that you are sentenced to community service - you do community service. You don't write a damn book report to get out of it.
Posted By: Buckeyed11 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 05:22 PM
Quote:

Atheists, like myself, would be thrown in jail unless they agreed that Christianity is "the answer".




unintelligent, ignorant, hogwash
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 05:34 PM
Quote:

unintelligent, ignorant, hogwash




So, if you decline to do this "Christian" activity you are released? Doesn't look like it to me. Looks like you get the sentence.
Posted By: Buckeyed11 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 05:42 PM
Quote:

Quote:

unintelligent, ignorant, hogwash




So, if you decline to do this "Christian" activity you are released? Doesn't look like it to me. Looks like you get the sentence.




um, i meant your comment. you cant argue with me out of context. you will just be like the media
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 05:47 PM
Quote:

um, i meant your comment. you cant argue with me out of context. you will just be like the media




That would be you.

I am perfectly in context. This article is about how a judge told people they had to write a report about a pro-Christian book that ephasized the "importance" of the Christian faith and ideals. Now, sure, that report is optional. What is the other option?

The answer: the other option is serving out your sentence.
Posted By: ExclDawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 05:54 PM
Quote:

Furthermore,

You commit the crime, you do the time. IF your crime is minimal enough that you are sentenced to community service - you do community service. You don't write a damn book report to get out of it.




Why not? You can go to traffic school to get out of traffic fines.
Posted By: PStu24 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 05:54 PM
Quote:

Furthermore,

You commit the crime, you do the time. IF your crime is minimal enough that you are sentenced to community service - you do community service. You don't write a damn book report to get out of it.




Which is the flawed thinking in our society. People would rather do something just to get it done with than actually have to learn or take another's perspective.
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 05:56 PM
Quote:

Which is the flawed thinking in our society. People would rather do something just to get it done with than actually have to learn or take another's perspective.




The fact that courts actually listen to that nonsense is a sign of corruption.
Posted By: Buckeyed11 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 05:56 PM
everybody could do themselves a favor and do a book report on the bible. i am an atheist and i minored in Theology. expand the horizons man
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 05:58 PM
Quote:

everybody could do themselves a favor and do a book report on the bible. i am an atheist and i minored in Theology. expand the horizons man




I know plenty about religion. I know that there are things that enslave mankind and other things that set them free. Religion is just another way to enslave mankind.
Posted By: PStu24 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 05:58 PM
And another point. I read "Mein Kampf" when in college. I am not a Nazi nor have I ever been. I do not hate the Jews or even agree with Hitler's thinking. It doesn't mÝan I couldn't learn something from it whether as examples or as examples of what not to do.

I am a (primarily) right wing individual when it comes to fiscal spending, global policy an economics. That doesn't mean I think I am any better than anyone else, but it's just to help demonstrate a point. I have been to Left wing demonstrations, read their reports, listened to their news and etc. Why? Because either I learn something, or I disagree with them. But it doesn't mean that just by being there I am "brainwashed" into something I disagree with... anymore than it means an Ohio State fan who watches a bowl game with Michigan playing in it would make them a Michigan fan. They just want to see what happens and see if they can learn from it.
Posted By: PStu24 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 05:59 PM
Respectfully,

Are you suggesting that it's more important to "punish" than to actually rehabilitate?
Posted By: PETE314 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:04 PM
Quote:

Religion is just another way to enslave mankind.


And to one with an open mind it can also be a way to set them free.
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:05 PM
Quote:

And another point. I read "Mein Kampf" when in college. I am not a Nazi nor have I ever been. I do not hate the Jews or even agree with Hitler's thinking. It doesn't mean I couldn't learn something from it whether as examples or as examples of what not to do.




I read it too. I own a copy of it. I also own a copy of the Bible (which I have read) and the Quran (which I have read as well). I read it so that I can "know my enemy" so to speak.

Quote:

I am a (primarily) right wing individual when it comes to fiscal spending, global policy and economics.




and I am a radical. I firmly believe that the government is a tool that can be used to correct the problems with mankind. Government is meant to serve man. The sole responsibility of a government is to take care of its citizens. Whether it is protecting them with a military force, to universal healthcare, or an education.

Quote:

That doesn't mean I think I am any better than anyone else, but it's just to help demonstrate a point.




Same here. Right-wingers like to claim I am "elitest" because all I strive to be is a common man. Don't ask me how they feel that makes me an "elitest" - it is political doublespeak.

Quote:

I have been to Left wing demonstrations, read their reports, listened to their news and etc. Why? Because either I learn something, or I disagree with them.




I read right-wing news on occasion as well. Blogs, etc... What I see from them is that Muslims are to be feared because they are destroying America. That, Obama is always wrong - even when he does what they want and that anybody that doesn't agree with their politcal philosophy is an idiot (or a pinhead to borrow a term from one of them) or a traitor.
Posted By: PStu24 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:11 PM
Well then I don't see how you can read different books yet not understand how important it would be for individuals to actually read them for themselves and see what they are REALLY about. To me this would spark thinking in many, so I would assume you should see it as a good thing. Let the people really read and come to know what they claim to follow.

I agree with your views though I would not consider myself "radical" (on a side note I am against most government spending and believe privatization would become more efficient in almost any scenario as long as it has a form of checks and balances and cannot be monopolized).

And with you finale ... I agree. But just because that's the popular things to say in the news and what gets people going doesn't mean that it's the majority of what people think. Anymore than the majority of left wingers still think Bush was a Nazi, that the right wing wants the poor to die in the streets, or that anyone who is on the right and doesn't believe in heterosexual marriage, suit and tie attire, having a well funded 401k, and being anything but christian or jewish is wrong. ...

believe me ... it's hard to argue stereotypes
Posted By: ExclDawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:12 PM
Quote:

I read right-wing news on occasion as well. Blogs, etc... What I see from them is that Muslims are to be feared because they are destroying America. That, Obama is always wrong - even when he does what they want and that anybody that doesn't agree with their politcal philosophy is an idiot (or a pinhead to borrow a term from one of them) or a traitor.




Replace Muslims with Christians, and Obama with Bush ... and we have, well ... you.
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:13 PM
Quote:

I know plenty about religion. I know that there are things that enslave mankind and other things that set them free. Religion is just another way to enslave mankind.



Speaking of being enslaved, I read an article the other day that there are more black men in the prison system now (in prison, on parole, etc) than there were black slaves in this country in 1850... so your thought of "if you do the crime, just shut up and do the time" isn't working to fix the problem.

As much as I am 100% certain that applying Christian principles would keep almost all of these people from ending up in prison (or back in prison), I am also sure that mandating Christian reading is unconstitutional... I am however aware of the need to get creative with rehabbing prisoners.
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:14 PM
Quote:

Replace Muslims with Christians, and Obama with Bush ... and we have, well ... you.




No, you simply see my attacks on Christianity because that is what a majority of you are. Bring me a Hebrew and a Muslim and I'll be more than happy to tell them the same message.
Posted By: Squires Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:24 PM
Quote:

I read it so that I can "know my enemy" so to speak.




So, someone who believes in something different than you is your enemy? I think you are the type of "mental cases" we need to be worried about.
Posted By: Buckeyed11 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:26 PM
i claim BS that you have read mein kampf, the bible, and the quran.
Posted By: PStu24 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:29 PM
LOL! to be fair it's possible... I have read mein kampf and *much* of the bible ... (there are a couple books of poetry and stuff that I have just shied away from ... like psalms ..) and I'm only 24 ... I could probably get through the quran if I decided too in a legitimate amount of time even if I only read a bit each day
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:30 PM
Quote:

Speaking of being enslaved, I read an article the other day that there are more black men in the prison system now (in prison, on parole, etc) than there were black slaves in this country in 1850... so your thought of "if you do the crime, just shut up and do the time" isn't working to fix the problem.

As much as I am 100% certain that applying Christian principles would keep almost all of these people from ending up in prison (or back in prison), I am also sure that mandating Christian reading is unconstitutional... I am however aware of the need to get creative with rehabbing prisoners.




The current criminal system disproportionately targets African Americans. Yo are aware of this. Whenever a person goes missing the suspect oftentimes is listed as African American. When that woman murdered her children she originally claimed a black man stole her car with her children inside.

Certain drugs have been given harsher sentences. Having crack cocaine (which is disproportionately used in Black neighborhoods) offenders recieving harsher sentences than regular cocaine users targets a specific minority. You are aware of the issue of DWB's (Driving While Black).
Posted By: FloridaFan Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:32 PM
Quote:

Quote:

unintelligent, ignorant, hogwash




So, if you decline to do this "Christian" activity you are released? Doesn't look like it to me. Looks like you get the sentence.




Are you that stubborn? The sentence was community service. Now the Judge gave them a secondary option that was not required, the book report.

In any other court, it would have been community service and that's it. not sure about you, but 2-3 hours to read a book and and hour or so to write a report in the comfort of my home, is a heck of a lot better than 40 hrs community service. but if they want to argue, fine. Easy option removed from table, do the service.
Posted By: Buckeyed11 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:36 PM
yeah, but since you are 24, i am sure you remember the days where nerds would stand in the hall way at school talking about marx's concept of man like they read it cover to cover but really, they did not know what they heck they were talking about.
Posted By: PStu24 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:38 PM
haha yeah you're right. Spark notes did get me through a few classes though ... but it's funny that I actually care about legitimate knowledge now that I'm out of college ...
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:40 PM
Quote:

i claim BS that you have read mein kampf, the bible, and the quran.




I have and I have each in my possession. Mein Kampf I bought at a local fair (it is an old 60's version). The Quran I bought at a college bookstore (the writer had a Fatwa put on his head because it is written in English as opposed to Arabic) and the Bible is the one I was given as a child. I have read each one, the cool thing about the Bible as opposed to the others though is the fact that it has maps in it. I always liked maps - so naturally I took an interest in it.
Posted By: Buckeyed11 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:41 PM
me too. once i graduated, everything hit me like a ton of bricks. i need to learn everything. check out the stuff you should know podcast. you can find it on itunes. it's like spark notes for how every day things work.
Posted By: Buckeyed11 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:45 PM
Quote:

Quote:

i claim BS that you have read mein kampf, the bible, and the quran.




I have and I have each in my possession. Mein Kampf I bought at a local fair (it is an old 60's version). The Quran I bought at a college bookstore (the writer had a Fatwa put on his head because it is written in English as opposed to Arabic) and the Bible is the one I was given as a child. I have read each one, the cool thing about the Bible as opposed to the others though is the fact that it has maps in it. I always liked maps - so naturally I took an interest in it.




you know what a person's words/claims on the internet mean? nothing
Posted By: PETE314 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:54 PM
You sir are no atheist.

You claim to have no religion....but you do.

You claim not to worship any all knowing deity....but you do.

You don't even realize it.

Sure, you don't have a church or temple that go to or pray in.... But you worship just the same. You have the same exacting faith.

Who is this all knowing deity? This deity to "correct the problems with mankind" . This deity that is "is meant to serve man" . This deity whose "sole responsibility...is to take care of its" followers. Who is this deity, that others will argue, does not or cannot exist????

It is your conception of Government. Your idea that government can fix everything, show everyone how to live, and eliminate the bad parts of society. And you are just as devout to that mythical idea as any Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, or what have you,are to their religion.

No sir....you are no atheist. You have a God.....and Government be thine name.
Posted By: Buckeyed11 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:55 PM
great post man
Posted By: ExclDawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 06:59 PM
Would certainly explain why he's so angry, pious, judgemental and bigotted against people of other beliefs ... I mean, cause only people of an organized religion do that kind of stuff.
Posted By: Moxdawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 07:07 PM
Quote:

Great, state-sponsored religion.

What is this judge going to do next? I know, he's going to tell all non-Christians that in order to avoid jail sentences they must convert or face the consequences!


Psalm 14:1 NKJV

To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart,“ There is no God.” They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good.

You know if I'm wrong and their is no God, what's going to happen when I die.

If you're wrong and there is a God, what's going to happen when you die.
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 07:15 PM
Quote:

you know what a person's words/claims on the internet mean? nothing




Well, I know that I do own them. So, you can rest assured. If I saw I own copies of them, I own copies of them. I do not need to prove that I own them because I already know that I do own them.

Just as you claim that you are a fan of the Buckeyes. What proof do you have that you are a fan of the Buckeyes? None. You can post a picture of yourself in a Buckeye jersey. But, that doesn't mean you didn't just go and find a picture of some random guy in a Buckeye jersey.

Why you would go to such extents to prove that you are a Buckey fan, I'll never know. But, when I say I own copies of those books you can take it or leave it. You don't believe me, fine. But, I will not feed your paranoia.
Posted By: Buckeyed11 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 07:18 PM
small difference - i dont care if people THINK i am a buckeyes fan or not. now, they can assume and i am sure they do, but if they dont believe i am a buckeyes fan, i dont get all bent out of shape. i dont even try to make them believe. it is what it is
Posted By: BCbrownie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 09:53 PM
Quote:

i claim BS that you have read mein kampf, the bible, and the quran.




That would not be an impossible task.I was forced to read the Bible growing up.I read Hitler's book,to try to understand why my first wife hates me so badly,she being of the Arian race.I attempted to read the quaran,but some low life christian snuck up behind me and set it on fire.Now I got some wild-eyed crazy men chasing me around trying to kill me.As if it's all my fault.
Posted By: PStu24 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 10:53 PM
Quote:

Quote:

i claim BS that you have read mein kampf, the bible, and the quran.




That would not be an impossible task.I was forced to read the Bible growing up.I read Hitler's book,to try to understand why my first wife hates me so badly,she being of the Arian race.I attempted to read the quaran,but some low life christian snuck up behind me and set it on fire.Now I got some wild-eyed crazy men chasing me around trying to kill me.As if it's all my fault.




Posted By: Moxdawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/01/11 11:54 PM
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

i claim BS that you have read mein kampf, the bible, and the quran.




That would not be an impossible task.I was forced to read the Bible growing up.I read Hitler's book,to try to understand why my first wife hates me so badly,she being of the Arian race.I attempted to read the quaran,but some low life christian snuck up behind me and set it on fire.Now I got some wild-eyed crazy men chasing me around trying to kill me.As if it's all my fault.







Posted By: Squires Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 02:05 AM
Quote:

You sir are no atheist.

You claim to have no religion....but you do.

You claim not to worship any all knowing deity....but you do.

You don't even realize it.

Sure, you don't have a church or temple that go to or pray in.... But you worship just the same. You have the same exacting faith.

Who is this all knowing deity? This deity to "correct the problems with mankind" . This deity that is "is meant to serve man" . This deity whose "sole responsibility...is to take care of its" followers. Who is this deity, that others will argue, does not or cannot exist????

It is your conception of Government. Your idea that government can fix everything, show everyone how to live, and eliminate the bad parts of society. And you are just as devout to that mythical idea as any Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, or what have you,are to their religion.

No sir....you are no atheist. You have a God.....and Government be thine name.




This.
Posted By: jfanent Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 04:19 AM
Quote:

....The sole responsibility of a government is to take care of its citizens. Whether it is protecting them with a military force, to universal healthcare, or an education....





I believe the sole purpose of a government is to assure us the freedom to take care of our own damn selves.
Posted By: archbolddawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 04:24 AM
Quote:

Quote:

....The sole responsibility of a government is to take care of its citizens. Whether it is protecting them with a military force, to universal healthcare, or an education....





I believe the sole purpose of a government is to assure us the freedom to take care of our own damn selves.




I do too.

But for charlie, that's a scary thought. Much easier to rely on others, tax the hell out of those that work in order to take care of him..........living with his parents, not working much, but still wanting - the easiest way for him is to let the gov't. steal, then give to him.
Posted By: jfanent Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 04:31 AM
Yep. How "progressive" are we when someone who chooses to work "a few days a month" demands a free education and free healthcare....paid for by those who have to work for a living. The "meager lifestyle" he chooses to live isn't so meager when others are footing the bill. I do think he's soon going to learn what "meager" really means, though.
Posted By: archbolddawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 04:40 AM
Some will never learn. There will always be someone that makes more than him - even the h.s. drop out that works a minimum wage job. And he'll be griping about that person, too.

When the u.s. dollar isn't worth the paper it's printed on, perhaps then he'll realize, but I'm not sure. The policies he endorses are almost assuredly getting us to that point - especially when combined with our gov't. love of debt.
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 04:54 AM
Quote:

You know if I'm wrong and their is no God, what's going to happen when I die.

If you're wrong and there is a God, what's going to happen when you die.




God was created by man out of their own fears. So, trying to play into simple fears like that will not work on me. There is no god. So, rest assured the latter will never occur. When I die I don't know what will happen. I don't pretend to know what will happen. My body will cease to be of use and who knows what will happen to "me". Nobody knows and to pretend that you do know because of religion is nonesence.
Posted By: jfanent Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 04:59 AM
Quote:

When I die I don't know what will happen.




I've got a hunch.
Posted By: YTownBrownsFan Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 05:03 AM
Charlie ..... you have it backwards.

God is not about fear .... He is about life, and hope, and love.

Do men fear God? Sure ..... much like a 2 year old child who has done wrong might experience fear when his parent finds out the bad things he's done. However, like a loving parent, God forgives, as long as we believe in Him, he will welcome into His home and love for all eternity.
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 05:05 AM
Quote:

But for charlie, that's a scary thought. Much easier to rely on others, tax the hell out of those that work in order to take care of him..........living with his parents, not working much, but still wanting - the easiest way for him is to let the gov't. steal, then give to him




You certainly are funny. Yea, I don't work every day. I don't have to. I am not trained for many of the job offers that come my way. So, naturally I have no choice but to decline them. So, next time know what you are talking about before you ASSume. You act like I sit here wanting millions of dollars. I don't want a dime from millionaires. I want millionaires and billionaires money to go where it is needed - to provide for the working poor. Am I the working poor? No. I'm the so-called Middle Class.
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 05:07 AM
Quote:

Charlie ..... you have it backwards.

God is not about fear .... He is about life, and hope, and love.

Do men fear God? Sure ..... much like a 2 year old child who has done wrong might experience fear when his parent finds out the bad things he's done. However, like a loving parent, God forgives, as long as we believe in Him, he will welcome into His home and love for all eternity.




More like God is the boogeyman that parents use to scare children into submission. If you don't do _____ then God will punish you. Etc.... You can easily replace God with the Monster in the closet or under their bed.
Posted By: jfanent Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 05:09 AM
Quote:

More like God is the boogeyman that parents use to scare children into submission. If you don't do _____ then God will punish you. Etc.... You can easily replace God with the Monster in the closet or under their bed.




Wow. That's sure not how my parents taught me about God, and certainly not how I teach my son about him. Maybe that's where you get your twisted thoughts about Christianity.
Posted By: YTownBrownsFan Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 05:13 AM
I feel so sorry for you .... that all you can see if fear, and hate, and all of the bad things you have associated with God, and have not experienced His love, and the peace His love offers.

It does not mean that nothing bad will ever happen to those who believe ...... as God has many purposes for His creation. It does mean that God gives us the ability to handle those bad things, and the ability to face whatever comes with strength, courage, and faith.
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 05:13 AM
Quote:

Wow. That's sure not how my parents taught me about God, and certainly not how I teach my son about him. Maybe that's where you get your twisted thoughts about Christianity.




No. Religion is a lie told to people to keep them down.
Posted By: archbolddawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 05:22 AM
Quote:

Quote:

Wow. That's sure not how my parents taught me about God, and certainly not how I teach my son about him. Maybe that's where you get your twisted thoughts about Christianity.




No. Religion is a lie told to people to keep them down.




To keep them down? Dude, Christianity lifts me up.
Posted By: archbolddawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 05:26 AM
Quote:


You certainly are funny. Yea, I don't work every day. I don't have to. I am not trained for many of the job offers that come my way. So, naturally I have no choice but to decline them. So, next time know what you are talking about before you ASSume. You act like I sit here wanting millions of dollars. I don't want a dime from millionaires. I want millionaires and billionaires money to go where it is needed - to provide for the working poor. Am I the working poor? No. I'm the so-called Middle Class.




If you're not a comic, you ought to look into becoming one. You "aren't trained for the job offers that come your way.."???? Like people are knocking on your door asking for you to work for them? Give me a break. And you "have to turn them down"???

I would think it's more like "I haven't had a job offer since 2005 - and even back then, they wanted me to show up to work, full time. Why would I do that when I can sponge off my parents and still get a check from the gubmint."
Posted By: jfanent Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 05:35 AM
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Wow. That's sure not how my parents taught me about God, and certainly not how I teach my son about him. Maybe that's where you get your twisted thoughts about Christianity.




No. Religion is a lie told to people to keep them down.




To keep them down? Dude, Christianity lifts me up.




Same here. Some of our best times as a family are when we go to Church, then dinner and a drive on a sunny Sunday afternoon.
Posted By: Moxdawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 06:08 AM
Quote:

Quote:

You know if I'm wrong and their is no God, what's going to happen when I die.

If you're wrong and there is a God, what's going to happen when you die.




God was created by man out of their own fears. So, trying to play into simple fears like that will not work on me. There is no god. So, rest assured the latter will never occur. When I die I don't know what will happen. I don't pretend to know what will happen. My body will cease to be of use and who knows what will happen to "me". Nobody knows and to pretend that you do know because of religion is nonesence.




I'm not trying to work anything on you. There is no way to talk sense into a self proclaimed atheist and I would never try. When my parents died when I was 20 and 23 and was not yet a Christian he helped me when I had no one to turn too. There is no doubt in my mind there is a God. When you love him he lets you know He's here because you can feel him. While this may be funny to you, everyone on this board that knows God knows what I mean. All I have to do is look at my wife and kids and I know he gave them to me and if he so choose he will take them away. He is still God and I will still follow and to use your words, FEAR him because life without God ain't worth living. Hopefully one day you will wake up and understand this but I doubt it because even before I was a Christian I believed he was there so through my tough years he helped me because I believed in him, ask for his help and he helped me and guided my life to where I am now.
Posted By: Moxdawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 10:08 AM
Quote:

No. Religion is a lie told to people to keep them down.


One more thing. what exactly does religion keep a person down from doing. I've been thinking about that statement and just can't figure out what you are talking about....
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 08:51 PM
Quote:

One more thing. what exactly does religion keep a person down from doing. I've been thinking about that statement and just can't figure out what you are talking about....




It keeps them from enjoying life to its fullest due to its dogmatic view and it also keeps them from improving their lot in life because they believe that whatever happens in this life they will be rewarded. So, they become complacent.

Prime example, if Christians believe that dying brings them one step closer to "Jesus" will they be afraid of death? If they found out that if they didn't take action life as they know it ended tomorrow - would they do anything to prevent it?
Posted By: FloridaFan Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 09:16 PM
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Quote:

One more thing. what exactly does religion keep a person down from doing. I've been thinking about that statement and just can't figure out what you are talking about....




It keeps them from enjoying life to its fullest due to its dogmatic view and it also keeps them from improving their lot in life because they believe that whatever happens in this life they will be rewarded. So, they become complacent.

Prime example, if Christians believe that dying brings them one step closer to "Jesus" will they be afraid of death? If they found out that if they didn't take action life as they know it ended tomorrow - would they do anything to prevent it?





And this comes from a guy that claims to have read the Bible, Quran, and who knows what other religious texts.

Your really clueless on what Christians believe and do, and how they interact with the community. Your a closed minded individual with no concept of real life outside your own imaginary world.
Posted By: PStu24 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 09:41 PM
Quote:


It keeps them from enjoying life to its fullest due to its dogmatic view and it also keeps them from improving their lot in life because they believe that whatever happens in this life they will be rewarded. So, they become complacent.




gotta disagree. You can't suggest that the way that you would want to enjoy life is the way that everyone should enjoy it. Some people have satisfaction in following a moral code and denying what they refer to as sin. Others decide to pursue it. You can't say one group is wrong because they abstain from something. Nor can you assert that people become complacent in religion. I thought I brought this very point up a day or two ago when I referenced the parable of the three servants receiving bags of gold (or was it talents) and how their master was upset that the one who received the least didn't do anything with it.

Quote:


Prime example, if Christians believe that dying brings them one step closer to "Jesus" will they be afraid of death? If they found out that if they didn't take action life as they know it ended tomorrow - would they do anything to prevent it?




Now you're suggesting two different things in two sentences. Just because someone doesn't FEAR death doesn't mean that they pursue it. I don't fear being in a fight because I was trained and I'm a larger more physically fit guy. It doesn't mean that I seek out trouble or that I won't try to solve problems with my head and being calm first.
Posted By: Moxdawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/02/11 10:03 PM
Quote:

Quote:

One more thing. what exactly does religion keep a person down from doing. I've been thinking about that statement and just can't figure out what you are talking about....




It keeps them from enjoying life to its fullest due to its dogmatic view and it also keeps them from improving their lot in life because they believe that whatever happens in this life they will be rewarded. So, they become complacent.

Prime example, if Christians believe that dying brings them one step closer to "Jesus" will they be afraid of death? If they found out that if they didn't take action life as they know it ended tomorrow - would they do anything to prevent it?


My quality of life is 10 times what it was before I became a Christian

You clearly have a twisted view on Christianity. Why you spend so much time trying to explain something you clearly know nothing about is what amaze me. If I was an atheist I would never waste my time as you do. When I was a teenage I had a good friend who claimed to be an atheist. I was not a Christian than but I believed in God. He never once made comments such as you make about how believing in God is a waste of time or how it keeps you down. He just went on with his life.

One other thing. You are right. I am not afraid to die. I believe better things are waiting for me after this life but that doesn't miean I want to die. I would fight for my life and the life of my family at any moment. How a person goes through life without a belief in something better is beyond me.

As I said. You claim to know so much about the Bible but you clearly know nothing about the subject. Atheists spend so much time doing everything they can to take the rights away from Christians I just don't understand why they don't mind their own business.
Like the subject of this thread in the first place. The judge was just giving the people in front of him a choice. They could take it or leave it. I personally would have left it because anything other then the Bible is man made. I would have done my time in jail and moved on. You on the other hand was crying about how you were going to get screwed because you didn't think it was fair.
Again,difference between a Christian and an atheist. Christian excepts the consequence,atheist looks for reason to complain

I'm done. I will be making no more comments. Thanks to all that made comments on this post. I don't start many threads. It was nice to hear other opinions
Posted By: bluecollarball Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/03/11 12:17 AM
I have just read all your posts Charlie. I don't know you (or anyone else here for that matter) but I trust you when you say that you read the Bible. I do. I believe that you read it.

You don't understand it.

The Bible isn't something you can read like the New York Times and understand all of it. It also depends on which Bible you read. Some Bibles try to convey the Truth by making it easy to read. That can be problematic as they put the failings of man first and therefore the text is in error.

Get the NIV Bible, the King James, get Strongs Concordance. Get in a good Bible-based church. Open your mind and heart. And you will learn.


As for the judge . . . honestly right or wrong I applaud him. He should get a list of texts both religious and secular (an approved list maybe) and offer them a book from that list.
Posted By: Mattack Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/03/11 08:43 AM
Quote:

You clearly have a twisted view on Christianity.




You make this statement and then go on to lump all atheists into a group and characterize them as being just like Charlie. I am an atheist, and I am nothing like him. I don't hate Christianity at all, or any other religion. They're all basically the same at their core to me; be good and be rewarded, be bad and be punished.

Though I am a recent atheist convert after identifying with agnosticism my whole life, so maybe my horns just haven't sprouted from my head yet.

I personally believe religion was invented as a way to keep everyone from killing, raping, and pillaging their neighbors when mankind was struggling to form civilizations and over time has evolved to a form of pretty effective crowd control. I think it has some bad ideas here and there like its views on homosexuality, but overall it spreads a very good message that many people need for various reasons. Some people would be savage if it weren't for the fear of God, others need the comfort it offers, others use it to make sense of the world.

When I was a child, mostly in my early teen years, I would lay awake at night wrestling with the thought of when I die that will be it, there is nothing else, I will cease to exist forever. It was a very terrifying thing to me at the time and caused my stomach to turn in knots and many a sleepless night. Having had those experiences, I completely understand why some people turn to religion. Had I had the comfort of believing I would go to heaven and have eternal happiness after I died, those nights would have been spent sleeping peacefully. Experiencing that caused me to want to learn about religion, to see if it offered answers to my questions. Unfortunately for me, it didn't add up. It requires believing something that you can't prove and isn't plausible; I tried and couldn't do it.

However, religion is a wonderful thing for many people. Some people twist it and use it to justify killing. Some people use their positions within the churches to molest children. Some people use it to justify their bigotry and protest funerals. There are people out there who are just evil, and they come in all shapes and sizes, but they are the outliers. The vast, vast majority of religious people are wonderful human beings who would give you the shirt off their back and a hot meal if you came to them naked and hungry. In my mind they are absolutely wrong in their beliefs, but who am I to try and take away their happiness and good nature because I have a different point of view? Most atheists are like me, we aren't particularly concerned about you believing what you do. We disagree, but we agree to disagree and we spend our Sundays sleeping in and watching football instead of going to church and watching football. Its the outliers that want to attack Christianity, just like its your outliers that are twisting your beliefs to suit their agendas. Charlie isn't representative of the rest of us, he's the fringe idiot carrying an assault rifle to a tea party rally.

My 2 closest friends are Christian. One was born and raised in Douglasville, Georgia, which is a belt loop of the bible belt if Chattanooga is the buckle, and she is very passionate about her beliefs. She will get so into it at church that she will break down and cry from pure happiness. I don't understand it, but I am glad that she is that happy. We get along fabulously, and we talk about everything, even religion. She'll attempt to convert me several times per year and I'll go off on a rant about logic and reason, and we'll have a good laugh about it.

My other best friend believes just as strongly, but when I asked her why she told me that if she believed and she was wrong then she still had great memories of being with friends and family at church and church outings, and she would go through life believing something better awaited her. If she spent her entire life believing and then on her deathbed was proved wrong, she would have no regrets. However, if she didn't believe and she was wrong, she would miss out on the eternal happiness part. It was a very honest and reasonable answer to me, I just am not capable of believing something for those reasons. In the back of my mind there will always be that voice saying to me why are you buying this when you know it doesn't compute?

My point though is that I am glad religion is around. Its not for me, but I recognize all the good that comes from it. There's no reason people can't get along because of their religion.

In fact, my girlfriend and our kids are swimming in a sea of Christianity and we're doing just fine. I think it says a lot about Christians that the people closest to us love us and accept us knowing full well we believe what we do, not once have we ever been treated differently. My kids are being raised to be open minded, we share our beliefs but encourage them to explore religion and make up their own minds, but they have tremendous access to Christianity from being around it constantly. There is always someone asking to take them to their church to attend Sunday school or bible study with their kids. They enjoy it, so we encourage them to do it. I don't hope they grow up atheist or hope they grow up Christian, I just hope they make up their own minds and are happy with what they decide on. If they came home from school and told me they wanted to go to a synagogue or a mosque with one of their friends, I would also encourage them to experience it and learn about it. That has yet to happen, but if it does I think it will be good for them to get another point of view on the subject. Atheists are not raising little God hating armies like a lot of people seem to think. Maybe the crazy ones are, but not the normal ones like us. To lump us all in one all inclusive net is just as unfair as it is for Charlie to lump all of you with the crazies who happen to share your beliefs.
Posted By: jfanent Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/03/11 09:47 AM
Years ago, my line of thinking was exactly as yours. It was almost spooky reading your post. Two events in my life have changed my mind. The first was when we were told we couldn't have children after years of trying. My wife and I both had surgery, took fertility drugs and several sessions of in-vitro, and the doctors told us that it would be pointless to continue. I opened my mind and seriously prayed during this process. A few months after we gave up all hope, she ended up pregnant. Given the medical issues involved that I won't go into, this was truly a miracle. Were my prayers answered or was it a freak of nature? I don't know, but I asked for something and received it.

Exactly 10 years later, my father was diagnosed with cancer. I posted about it here, so I won't go into great detail. I once again prayed that he would live past the prognosis of a few months, and he lasted over 2 years....most of which was pain free quality living. The doctors themselves said it was a miracle. We got to spend time with him and say everything we wanted to before he passed.....everything that I prayed for. Again, I asked for something and received it.

I owe for these gifts which I asked for and received, and it would be very difficult to convince me that the One I asked is not who I owe. For this, I will forever be grateful and will have faith.
Posted By: Moxdawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/03/11 12:07 PM
Quote:

When I was a teenage I had a good friend who claimed to be an atheist. I was not a Christian than but I believed in God. He never once made comments such as you make about how believing in God is a waste of time or how it keeps you down. He just went on with his life


copied from what I wrote earlier!

I said he was nothing like Charlie. I was just saying Christians can't say or do anything without an atheist claiming we are imposing our beliefs on someone.
NOW I'M DONE!
never meant to offend!
Posted By: wojo_dew Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/04/11 01:24 AM
Haven't read the comments, but as a judge is a part of the government, do separation of church and state not apply?

If a Muslim judge made people read the Koran, I could only imagine the revolt....
Posted By: Pdawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/04/11 01:50 AM
I think if you read the article it would become clearer. He gave them an option to read a Christian book. He reversed himself when challenged.
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/04/11 03:03 AM
Quote:

Quote:

Wow. That's sure not how my parents taught me about God, and certainly not how I teach my son about him. Maybe that's where you get your twisted thoughts about Christianity.




No. Religion is a lie told to people to keep them down.




To keep them down how? to keep them down by teaching them to not steal, cheat or lie? to keep them down by teaching them to not cheat on their spouse? to keep them down by teaching them to not live a life of greed? to keep them down by teaching them that giving of your gifts, money, and services to help others is a good thing? I'm curious what you learned without religion that I didn't learn that is keeping me down....
Posted By: Charlie Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/04/11 03:06 AM
Quote:

To keep them down how? to keep them down by teaching them to not steal, cheat or lie? to keep them down by teaching them to not cheat on their spouse? to keep them down by teaching them to not live a life of greed? to keep them down by teaching them that giving of your gifts, money, and services to help others is a good thing? I'm curious what you learned without religion that I didn't learn that is keeping me down....




To live life to the fullest without regard to the dogmatic view of religion. Religion serves to impose morals from millenia ago that are no longer as important as they were then. For instance, the idea of sin. The Old Testament teaches individuals that it is a mortal offense to work on a Sunday. The Bible is full of archaic laws that have no meaning to the average person today.
Posted By: The Collector Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/04/11 03:17 AM
If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.

If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
...
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?

If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?

Epicurus
Posted By: PStu24 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/04/11 03:43 AM
That's a very good line and Epicuris has some crazy thoughts on the little I've read from him ...

However ... all of his thoughts (as do with all philosophical arguments) is to say that they only work if things are exactly as we think they are. Meaning we only perceive this logic to be true because it is all that we understand. If there is a creator, wouldn't it be likely that for this creator to have the knowledge, power, and means of creating people, planets, and overall matter in some sense ... that this creator might be on a higher intelligence wavelength as us?

Don't forget ... for years, decades, and even centuries ... even the most intelligent people knew that the world was flat, the universe revolved around the earth, and that people couldn't fly or go into space ... but in time those were all proven wrong.
Posted By: PStu24 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/04/11 03:54 AM
Quote:

To live life to the fullest without regard to the dogmatic view of religion.





If I replace the word Religion with Government/Law then you could argue (almost) the exact same thing. But you would be called an anarchist or troublemaker if not worse.

Quote:


Religion serves to impose morals from millenia ago that are no longer as important as they were then.



Just because something has age doesn't mean we can't find value in their meanings. You think that the founding fathers imagined people doing or saying half of the things that they do today? Nonetheless, we still have the first ammendment.

Quote:


For instance, the idea of sin. The Old Testament teaches individuals that it is a mortal offense to work on a Sunday. The Bible is full of archaic laws that have no meaning to the average person today.




It does in the old testament and I believe the Jewish Community (orthodox perhaps? please let me know for sure if anyone is certain as I don't claim to be an expert) still follows this. The point is, just because you can't find value in a law or rule doesn't mean that it's worthless. In fact, you tend to cut against the grain on here ... so maybe if you dislike something it is more mainstream?

But seriously ... in the same way that "clothes" could be seen as trivial ... or how about names? we could all just use numbers for clarity in society ... or instead of everyone having their own bathroom ... let's all have community showering facilities to save energy ...

The point I'm trying to briefly make is that a lot of things change over time. Just because they don't "mean" anything to some doesn't mean that they are obsolete.

If I may ask, can you reference any other ideas that you find truly "radical" ... and I don't mean I am challenging you to find a controversial sentence or anything. I just mean is there a specific issue that you have with some of it? Because I get the feeling from the way that you write (and I definitely could be wrong here) that you are frustrated with maybe some sort of organized religion, or with a specific sect of religion and maybe not necessarily what the point of the Bible (or any holy books or spirituality) actually is ...
Posted By: GMdawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/04/11 10:05 AM
Thank you God for loving me.
Posted By: PETE314 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/04/11 11:11 AM
Quote:

Quote:

Wow. That's sure not how my parents taught me about God, and certainly not how I teach my son about him. Maybe that's where you get your twisted thoughts about Christianity.




No. Religion is a lie told to people to keep them down.


That goes for YOUR religion as well....
Posted By: no_logo_required Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/04/11 03:50 PM
Quote:

Quote:

To keep them down how? to keep them down by teaching them to not steal, cheat or lie? to keep them down by teaching them to not cheat on their spouse? to keep them down by teaching them to not live a life of greed? to keep them down by teaching them that giving of your gifts, money, and services to help others is a good thing? I'm curious what you learned without religion that I didn't learn that is keeping me down....




To live life to the fullest without regard to the dogmatic view of religion. Religion serves to impose morals from millenia ago that are no longer as important as they were then. For instance, the idea of sin. The Old Testament teaches individuals that it is a mortal offense to work on a Sunday. The Bible is full of archaic laws that have no meaning to the average person today.




what I find humorous is that often those that want to lambast Christianity stick to the Old Testament (and say that 'everything' needs to be taken literally).

for one, the Bible cannot be taken literally in many instances. the translation undoubtedly has lost the meaning of many of the instances/passages and also the meanings of words change over the course of a few thousand years.

secondly, Christianity is founded on the New Testament. Yes, the Old Testament is still used. But the harsh, unforgiving nature of many of the passages in the Old Testament has been replaced by the loving, forgiving view of the world in the New Testament. There are arguments for which is a better message, however you need to be clear in that when engaging in debate.

finally, religion can be viewed merely as a set of moral guidelines to follow. it is important that people have a set of morals in order for society to function. you can argue which morals are more important, but having a foundation of morals to start from is necessary. no matter if you are muslim, christian, jew, atheist or anything else.

ok, this will be finally
I cannot remember the philosopher that said it, but I will paraphrase his message here. If you believe in God and Heaven and it ends up not being true, then when you die nothing happens. If you don't believe in God and Heaven and it ends up being true, then when you die you could go to Hell.
Posted By: Moxdawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/04/11 04:58 PM
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Quote:

To keep them down how? to keep them down by teaching them to not steal, cheat or lie? to keep them down by teaching them to not cheat on their spouse? to keep them down by teaching them to not live a life of greed? to keep them down by teaching them that giving of your gifts, money, and services to help others is a good thing? I'm curious what you learned without religion that I didn't learn that is keeping me down....




To live life to the fullest without regard to the dogmatic view of religion. Religion serves to impose morals from millenia ago that are no longer as important as they were then. For instance, the idea of sin. The Old Testament teaches individuals that it is a mortal offense to work on a Sunday. The Bible is full of archaic laws that have no meaning to the average person today.


Here we go again someone claiming to know the Bible without knowing the basic things. The old testament teaches it is a mortal sin to work on a SATURDAY (Sabbath)not a Sunday. This was a Jewish law. Unless a person was Jewish this law doesn't apply. If a person is a Christian they follow the New Testament. This is the law Jesus brought. I realize this means nothing to you but you are trying to talk about how much you know, and basically no nothing
Posted By: CaptainCheckdown Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/04/11 05:04 PM
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I cannot remember the philosopher that said it, but I will paraphrase his message here. If you believe in God and Heaven and it ends up not being true, then when you die nothing happens. If you don't believe in God and Heaven and it ends up being true, then when you die you could go to Hell.




That's Paschal's wager and I don't know why so many people cling to this as if it's a be-all-end-all for why we should all believe in God. It's a very fear-driven argument and illogical beyond it's consequential nature. If the only reason one believes in God is the fear of the consequences for not doing so, that doesn't validate anything about their spirituality, actions, supremacy as a human, etc. If anything that's just cowardice. I also don't follow the logic behind his wager. First of all, how do you know you believed in the "right" God? Also and more importantly, it seems to imply that the one thing God wants from you is belief. If that's somehow a supreme virtue, believing in some life force or personal being in control of existence, than I'll gladly surf on a lake of fire. You can have guiding principles in your life without belief in any sort of deity. If someone- who just so happens to not believe in God- lives a virtuous life benefiting myriads of men and women, inspires, laughs, and helps us all smile broader without harming or negatively impacting lives around them (basically a John Lennon would be a perfect example of this), then I think people need to investigate this God character as a sort of criminal. There is nothing benevolent, prudent, or magnificent about someone that goes, "Accept my son as your Lord and Savior or go to hell for all of eternity."
Posted By: Moxdawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/04/11 05:09 PM
Quote:

I cannot remember the philosopher that said it, but I will paraphrase his message here. If you believe in God and Heaven and it ends up not being true, then when you die nothing happens. If you don't believe in God and Heavenand it ends up being true, then when you die you could go to Hell.


didn't you read earlier? I already brought this up. This doesn't work on smart people like Charlie
Posted By: DCDAWGFAN Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/04/11 05:33 PM
Exactly, saying you believe in God because you are hedging your bets isn't going to get you very far when your name finally gets called.
Posted By: Moxdawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/04/11 06:00 PM
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Exactly, saying you believe in God because you are hedging your bets isn't going to get you very far when your name finally gets called.


that's not why I believe in God. it's just directly getting to the point.

Analogy. If you drove 100 mph into a brick wall would you wear your seatbelt.

You probably would die either way, but what would you rather do?
Posted By: Buckeyed11 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/04/11 06:05 PM
if i knew i was going 100 mph into a brick wall, i would hop out of the car before it hit the wall
Posted By: Moxdawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/04/11 06:14 PM
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if i knew i was going 100 mph into a brick wall, i would hop out of the car before it hit the wall


I never thought of that. If I'm ever going down in an airplane I'll just jump up right before the plane hits the ground.
Posted By: no_logo_required Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/04/11 06:30 PM
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That's Paschal's wager and I don't know why so many people cling to this as if it's a be-all-end-all for why we should all believe in God. It's a very fear-driven argument and illogical beyond it's consequential nature.




thank you for reminding me of the philosopher. and i brought it up as anecdotal, not a real reason to believe in God or not to.

Quote:

There is nothing benevolent, prudent, or magnificent about someone that goes, "Accept my son as your Lord and Savior or go to hell for all of eternity."




please find me the passage that notes this message. I know there are certain segments of Christians (and other religions) that do believe as such.

personally, I believe as long as you are benevolent and caring with good morals through your life, then Heaven awaits no matter the religion. the tricky part is trying to figure out what makes for good morals (and that is where the interesting portion of the debate lies IMO)
Posted By: GMdawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/05/11 02:43 PM
Thank you lord for loving all of us, Christians, Jews, Muslims, and atheists
Posted By: Buckeyed11 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/05/11 03:05 PM
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Quote:

if i knew i was going 100 mph into a brick wall, i would hop out of the car before it hit the wall


I never thought of that. If I'm ever going down in an airplane I'll just jump up right before the plane hits the ground.




different concept. gravity is not involved with the car. the pressure would be too great and u wouldnt be able to do anything if you were in a plane.
Posted By: FloridaFan Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/05/11 03:36 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

if i knew i was going 100 mph into a brick wall, i would hop out of the car before it hit the wall


I never thought of that. If I'm ever going down in an airplane I'll just jump up right before the plane hits the ground.




different concept. gravity is not involved with the car. the pressure would be too great and u wouldnt be able to do anything if you were in a plane.




No, but your body is still moving forward at 100mph, so you had better jump early or you'll still hit the wall, and with less protection. Not sure the road rash at 100mph is all that great an option either.

Besides, at 100mph I'm not sure you could push the door open to jump out.
Posted By: no_logo_required Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/05/11 03:48 PM
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Besides, at 100mph I'm not sure you could push the door open to jump out.





Window and barrelroll: Dukes of Hazard style.
Posted By: Buckeyed11 Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/05/11 04:16 PM
i would take the road rash as compared to taking a steering wheel right to the chops lol.

you are right. might not be able to get the door open. i hope i never find out!
Posted By: Moxdawg Re: Texas Judge offers Bible Study - 04/06/11 12:05 AM
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

if i knew i was going 100 mph into a brick wall, i would hop out of the car before it hit the wall


I never thought of that. If I'm ever going down in an airplane I'll just jump up right before the plane hits the ground.




different concept. gravity is not involved with the car. the pressure would be too great and u wouldnt be able to do anything if you were in a plane.




No, but your body is still moving forward at 100mph, so you had better jump early or you'll still hit the wall, and with less protection. Not sure the road rash at 100mph is all that great an option either.

Besides, at 100mph I'm not sure you could push the door open to jump out.



thanks for clearing that up for him. I haven't stopped laughing long enough to explain that to him
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