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I have just read all your posts Charlie. I don't know you (or anyone else here for that matter) but I trust you when you say that you read the Bible. I do. I believe that you read it.
You don't understand it.
The Bible isn't something you can read like the New York Times and understand all of it. It also depends on which Bible you read. Some Bibles try to convey the Truth by making it easy to read. That can be problematic as they put the failings of man first and therefore the text is in error.
Get the NIV Bible, the King James, get Strongs Concordance. Get in a good Bible-based church. Open your mind and heart. And you will learn.
As for the judge . . . honestly right or wrong I applaud him. He should get a list of texts both religious and secular (an approved list maybe) and offer them a book from that list.
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You clearly have a twisted view on Christianity.
You make this statement and then go on to lump all atheists into a group and characterize them as being just like Charlie. I am an atheist, and I am nothing like him. I don't hate Christianity at all, or any other religion. They're all basically the same at their core to me; be good and be rewarded, be bad and be punished.
Though I am a recent atheist convert after identifying with agnosticism my whole life, so maybe my horns just haven't sprouted from my head yet. 
I personally believe religion was invented as a way to keep everyone from killing, raping, and pillaging their neighbors when mankind was struggling to form civilizations and over time has evolved to a form of pretty effective crowd control. I think it has some bad ideas here and there like its views on homosexuality, but overall it spreads a very good message that many people need for various reasons. Some people would be savage if it weren't for the fear of God, others need the comfort it offers, others use it to make sense of the world.
When I was a child, mostly in my early teen years, I would lay awake at night wrestling with the thought of when I die that will be it, there is nothing else, I will cease to exist forever. It was a very terrifying thing to me at the time and caused my stomach to turn in knots and many a sleepless night. Having had those experiences, I completely understand why some people turn to religion. Had I had the comfort of believing I would go to heaven and have eternal happiness after I died, those nights would have been spent sleeping peacefully. Experiencing that caused me to want to learn about religion, to see if it offered answers to my questions. Unfortunately for me, it didn't add up. It requires believing something that you can't prove and isn't plausible; I tried and couldn't do it.
However, religion is a wonderful thing for many people. Some people twist it and use it to justify killing. Some people use their positions within the churches to molest children. Some people use it to justify their bigotry and protest funerals. There are people out there who are just evil, and they come in all shapes and sizes, but they are the outliers. The vast, vast majority of religious people are wonderful human beings who would give you the shirt off their back and a hot meal if you came to them naked and hungry. In my mind they are absolutely wrong in their beliefs, but who am I to try and take away their happiness and good nature because I have a different point of view? Most atheists are like me, we aren't particularly concerned about you believing what you do. We disagree, but we agree to disagree and we spend our Sundays sleeping in and watching football instead of going to church and watching football. Its the outliers that want to attack Christianity, just like its your outliers that are twisting your beliefs to suit their agendas. Charlie isn't representative of the rest of us, he's the fringe idiot carrying an assault rifle to a tea party rally.
My 2 closest friends are Christian. One was born and raised in Douglasville, Georgia, which is a belt loop of the bible belt if Chattanooga is the buckle, and she is very passionate about her beliefs. She will get so into it at church that she will break down and cry from pure happiness. I don't understand it, but I am glad that she is that happy. We get along fabulously, and we talk about everything, even religion. She'll attempt to convert me several times per year and I'll go off on a rant about logic and reason, and we'll have a good laugh about it.
My other best friend believes just as strongly, but when I asked her why she told me that if she believed and she was wrong then she still had great memories of being with friends and family at church and church outings, and she would go through life believing something better awaited her. If she spent her entire life believing and then on her deathbed was proved wrong, she would have no regrets. However, if she didn't believe and she was wrong, she would miss out on the eternal happiness part. It was a very honest and reasonable answer to me, I just am not capable of believing something for those reasons. In the back of my mind there will always be that voice saying to me why are you buying this when you know it doesn't compute?
My point though is that I am glad religion is around. Its not for me, but I recognize all the good that comes from it. There's no reason people can't get along because of their religion.
In fact, my girlfriend and our kids are swimming in a sea of Christianity and we're doing just fine. I think it says a lot about Christians that the people closest to us love us and accept us knowing full well we believe what we do, not once have we ever been treated differently. My kids are being raised to be open minded, we share our beliefs but encourage them to explore religion and make up their own minds, but they have tremendous access to Christianity from being around it constantly. There is always someone asking to take them to their church to attend Sunday school or bible study with their kids. They enjoy it, so we encourage them to do it. I don't hope they grow up atheist or hope they grow up Christian, I just hope they make up their own minds and are happy with what they decide on. If they came home from school and told me they wanted to go to a synagogue or a mosque with one of their friends, I would also encourage them to experience it and learn about it. That has yet to happen, but if it does I think it will be good for them to get another point of view on the subject. Atheists are not raising little God hating armies like a lot of people seem to think. Maybe the crazy ones are, but not the normal ones like us. To lump us all in one all inclusive net is just as unfair as it is for Charlie to lump all of you with the crazies who happen to share your beliefs.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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Years ago, my line of thinking was exactly as yours. It was almost spooky reading your post. Two events in my life have changed my mind. The first was when we were told we couldn't have children after years of trying. My wife and I both had surgery, took fertility drugs and several sessions of in-vitro, and the doctors told us that it would be pointless to continue. I opened my mind and seriously prayed during this process. A few months after we gave up all hope, she ended up pregnant. Given the medical issues involved that I won't go into, this was truly a miracle. Were my prayers answered or was it a freak of nature? I don't know, but I asked for something and received it.
Exactly 10 years later, my father was diagnosed with cancer. I posted about it here, so I won't go into great detail. I once again prayed that he would live past the prognosis of a few months, and he lasted over 2 years....most of which was pain free quality living. The doctors themselves said it was a miracle. We got to spend time with him and say everything we wanted to before he passed.....everything that I prayed for. Again, I asked for something and received it.
I owe for these gifts which I asked for and received, and it would be very difficult to convince me that the One I asked is not who I owe. For this, I will forever be grateful and will have faith.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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When I was a teenage I had a good friend who claimed to be an atheist. I was not a Christian than but I believed in God. He never once made comments such as you make about how believing in God is a waste of time or how it keeps you down. He just went on with his life
copied from what I wrote earlier!
I said he was nothing like Charlie. I was just saying Christians can't say or do anything without an atheist claiming we are imposing our beliefs on someone.
NOW I'M DONE!
never meant to offend!
Last edited by moxdawg; 04/03/11 08:23 AM.
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Haven't read the comments, but as a judge is a part of the government, do separation of church and state not apply?
If a Muslim judge made people read the Koran, I could only imagine the revolt....
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I think if you read the article it would become clearer. He gave them an option to read a Christian book. He reversed himself when challenged.
#gmstrong
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Wow. That's sure not how my parents taught me about God, and certainly not how I teach my son about him. Maybe that's where you get your twisted thoughts about Christianity.
No. Religion is a lie told to people to keep them down.
To keep them down how? to keep them down by teaching them to not steal, cheat or lie? to keep them down by teaching them to not cheat on their spouse? to keep them down by teaching them to not live a life of greed? to keep them down by teaching them that giving of your gifts, money, and services to help others is a good thing? I'm curious what you learned without religion that I didn't learn that is keeping me down....
yebat' Putin
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To keep them down how? to keep them down by teaching them to not steal, cheat or lie? to keep them down by teaching them to not cheat on their spouse? to keep them down by teaching them to not live a life of greed? to keep them down by teaching them that giving of your gifts, money, and services to help others is a good thing? I'm curious what you learned without religion that I didn't learn that is keeping me down....
To live life to the fullest without regard to the dogmatic view of religion. Religion serves to impose morals from millenia ago that are no longer as important as they were then. For instance, the idea of sin. The Old Testament teaches individuals that it is a mortal offense to work on a Sunday. The Bible is full of archaic laws that have no meaning to the average person today.
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If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
...
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?
If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?
Epicurus
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That's a very good line and Epicuris has some crazy thoughts on the little I've read from him ...
However ... all of his thoughts (as do with all philosophical arguments) is to say that they only work if things are exactly as we think they are. Meaning we only perceive this logic to be true because it is all that we understand. If there is a creator, wouldn't it be likely that for this creator to have the knowledge, power, and means of creating people, planets, and overall matter in some sense ... that this creator might be on a higher intelligence wavelength as us?
Don't forget ... for years, decades, and even centuries ... even the most intelligent people knew that the world was flat, the universe revolved around the earth, and that people couldn't fly or go into space ... but in time those were all proven wrong.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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To live life to the fullest without regard to the dogmatic view of religion.
If I replace the word Religion with Government/Law then you could argue (almost) the exact same thing. But you would be called an anarchist or troublemaker if not worse.
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Religion serves to impose morals from millenia ago that are no longer as important as they were then.
Just because something has age doesn't mean we can't find value in their meanings. You think that the founding fathers imagined people doing or saying half of the things that they do today? Nonetheless, we still have the first ammendment.
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For instance, the idea of sin. The Old Testament teaches individuals that it is a mortal offense to work on a Sunday. The Bible is full of archaic laws that have no meaning to the average person today.
It does in the old testament and I believe the Jewish Community (orthodox perhaps? please let me know for sure if anyone is certain as I don't claim to be an expert) still follows this. The point is, just because you can't find value in a law or rule doesn't mean that it's worthless. In fact, you tend to cut against the grain on here ... so maybe if you dislike something it is more mainstream? 
But seriously ... in the same way that "clothes" could be seen as trivial ... or how about names? we could all just use numbers for clarity in society ... or instead of everyone having their own bathroom ... let's all have community showering facilities to save energy ...
The point I'm trying to briefly make is that a lot of things change over time. Just because they don't "mean" anything to some doesn't mean that they are obsolete.
If I may ask, can you reference any other ideas that you find truly "radical" ... and I don't mean I am challenging you to find a controversial sentence or anything. I just mean is there a specific issue that you have with some of it? Because I get the feeling from the way that you write (and I definitely could be wrong here) that you are frustrated with maybe some sort of organized religion, or with a specific sect of religion and maybe not necessarily what the point of the Bible (or any holy books or spirituality) actually is ...
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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Thank you God for loving me.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Wow. That's sure not how my parents taught me about God, and certainly not how I teach my son about him. Maybe that's where you get your twisted thoughts about Christianity.
No. Religion is a lie told to people to keep them down.
That goes for YOUR religion as well....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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To keep them down how? to keep them down by teaching them to not steal, cheat or lie? to keep them down by teaching them to not cheat on their spouse? to keep them down by teaching them to not live a life of greed? to keep them down by teaching them that giving of your gifts, money, and services to help others is a good thing? I'm curious what you learned without religion that I didn't learn that is keeping me down....
To live life to the fullest without regard to the dogmatic view of religion. Religion serves to impose morals from millenia ago that are no longer as important as they were then. For instance, the idea of sin. The Old Testament teaches individuals that it is a mortal offense to work on a Sunday. The Bible is full of archaic laws that have no meaning to the average person today.
what I find humorous is that often those that want to lambast Christianity stick to the Old Testament (and say that 'everything' needs to be taken literally).
for one, the Bible cannot be taken literally in many instances. the translation undoubtedly has lost the meaning of many of the instances/passages and also the meanings of words change over the course of a few thousand years.
secondly, Christianity is founded on the New Testament. Yes, the Old Testament is still used. But the harsh, unforgiving nature of many of the passages in the Old Testament has been replaced by the loving, forgiving view of the world in the New Testament. There are arguments for which is a better message, however you need to be clear in that when engaging in debate.
finally, religion can be viewed merely as a set of moral guidelines to follow. it is important that people have a set of morals in order for society to function. you can argue which morals are more important, but having a foundation of morals to start from is necessary. no matter if you are muslim, christian, jew, atheist or anything else.
ok, this will be finally
I cannot remember the philosopher that said it, but I will paraphrase his message here. If you believe in God and Heaven and it ends up not being true, then when you die nothing happens. If you don't believe in God and Heaven and it ends up being true, then when you die you could go to Hell.
#gmstrong
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To keep them down how? to keep them down by teaching them to not steal, cheat or lie? to keep them down by teaching them to not cheat on their spouse? to keep them down by teaching them to not live a life of greed? to keep them down by teaching them that giving of your gifts, money, and services to help others is a good thing? I'm curious what you learned without religion that I didn't learn that is keeping me down....
To live life to the fullest without regard to the dogmatic view of religion. Religion serves to impose morals from millenia ago that are no longer as important as they were then. For instance, the idea of sin. The Old Testament teaches individuals that it is a mortal offense to work on a Sunday. The Bible is full of archaic laws that have no meaning to the average person today.
Here we go again someone claiming to know the Bible without knowing the basic things. The old testament teaches it is a mortal sin to work on a SATURDAY (Sabbath)not a Sunday. This was a Jewish law. Unless a person was Jewish this law doesn't apply. If a person is a Christian they follow the New Testament. This is the law Jesus brought. I realize this means nothing to you but you are trying to talk about how much you know, and basically no nothing
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I cannot remember the philosopher that said it, but I will paraphrase his message here. If you believe in God and Heaven and it ends up not being true, then when you die nothing happens. If you don't believe in God and Heaven and it ends up being true, then when you die you could go to Hell.
That's Paschal's wager and I don't know why so many people cling to this as if it's a be-all-end-all for why we should all believe in God. It's a very fear-driven argument and illogical beyond it's consequential nature. If the only reason one believes in God is the fear of the consequences for not doing so, that doesn't validate anything about their spirituality, actions, supremacy as a human, etc. If anything that's just cowardice. I also don't follow the logic behind his wager. First of all, how do you know you believed in the "right" God? Also and more importantly, it seems to imply that the one thing God wants from you is belief. If that's somehow a supreme virtue, believing in some life force or personal being in control of existence, than I'll gladly surf on a lake of fire. You can have guiding principles in your life without belief in any sort of deity. If someone- who just so happens to not believe in God- lives a virtuous life benefiting myriads of men and women, inspires, laughs, and helps us all smile broader without harming or negatively impacting lives around them (basically a John Lennon would be a perfect example of this), then I think people need to investigate this God character as a sort of criminal. There is nothing benevolent, prudent, or magnificent about someone that goes, "Accept my son as your Lord and Savior or go to hell for all of eternity."
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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I cannot remember the philosopher that said it, but I will paraphrase his message here. If you believe in God and Heaven and it ends up not being true, then when you die nothing happens. If you don't believe in God and Heavenand it ends up being true, then when you die you could go to Hell.
didn't you read earlier? I already brought this up. This doesn't work on smart people like Charlie
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Exactly, saying you believe in God because you are hedging your bets isn't going to get you very far when your name finally gets called.
yebat' Putin
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Exactly, saying you believe in God because you are hedging your bets isn't going to get you very far when your name finally gets called.
that's not why I believe in God. it's just directly getting to the point.
Analogy. If you drove 100 mph into a brick wall would you wear your seatbelt.
You probably would die either way, but what would you rather do?
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if i knew i was going 100 mph into a brick wall, i would hop out of the car before it hit the wall
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if i knew i was going 100 mph into a brick wall, i would hop out of the car before it hit the wall
I never thought of that. If I'm ever going down in an airplane I'll just jump up right before the plane hits the ground.
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That's Paschal's wager and I don't know why so many people cling to this as if it's a be-all-end-all for why we should all believe in God. It's a very fear-driven argument and illogical beyond it's consequential nature.
thank you for reminding me of the philosopher. and i brought it up as anecdotal, not a real reason to believe in God or not to.
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There is nothing benevolent, prudent, or magnificent about someone that goes, "Accept my son as your Lord and Savior or go to hell for all of eternity."
please find me the passage that notes this message. I know there are certain segments of Christians (and other religions) that do believe as such.
personally, I believe as long as you are benevolent and caring with good morals through your life, then Heaven awaits no matter the religion. the tricky part is trying to figure out what makes for good morals (and that is where the interesting portion of the debate lies IMO)
#gmstrong
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Thank you lord for loving all of us, Christians, Jews, Muslims, and atheists 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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if i knew i was going 100 mph into a brick wall, i would hop out of the car before it hit the wall
I never thought of that. If I'm ever going down in an airplane I'll just jump up right before the plane hits the ground.
different concept. gravity is not involved with the car. the pressure would be too great and u wouldnt be able to do anything if you were in a plane.
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if i knew i was going 100 mph into a brick wall, i would hop out of the car before it hit the wall
I never thought of that. If I'm ever going down in an airplane I'll just jump up right before the plane hits the ground.
different concept. gravity is not involved with the car. the pressure would be too great and u wouldnt be able to do anything if you were in a plane.
No, but your body is still moving forward at 100mph, so you had better jump early or you'll still hit the wall, and with less protection. Not sure the road rash at 100mph is all that great an option either. 
Besides, at 100mph I'm not sure you could push the door open to jump out.
Last edited by FloridaFan; 04/05/11 11:37 AM.
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Besides, at 100mph I'm not sure you could push the door open to jump out.
Window and barrelroll: Dukes of Hazard style.
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i would take the road rash as compared to taking a steering wheel right to the chops lol.
you are right. might not be able to get the door open. i hope i never find out!
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if i knew i was going 100 mph into a brick wall, i would hop out of the car before it hit the wall
I never thought of that. If I'm ever going down in an airplane I'll just jump up right before the plane hits the ground.
different concept. gravity is not involved with the car. the pressure would be too great and u wouldnt be able to do anything if you were in a plane.
No, but your body is still moving forward at 100mph, so you had better jump early or you'll still hit the wall, and with less protection. Not sure the road rash at 100mph is all that great an option either.
Besides, at 100mph I'm not sure you could push the door open to jump out.
thanks for clearing that up for him. I haven't stopped laughing long enough to explain that to him
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