The three are arguing that competing against biologically male athletes has denied them the chance to win medals and achieve scholarship opportunities.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/connecticut-h...-discrimination

I agree with them.

So do I.

This thread will go nowhere.

“Girls deserve to compete on a level playing field. Forcing them to compete against boys isn’t fair, shatters their dreams, and destroys their athletic opportunities,” Alliance Defending Freedom attorney Christiana Holcomb said in a statement. “Having separate boys’ and girls’ sports has always been based on biological differences, not what people believe about their gender, because those differences matter for fair competition. And forcing girls to be spectators in their own sports is completely at odds with Title IX, a federal law designed to create equal opportunities for women in education and athletics.”

When people are willing to drop their prejudice about this issue on this board, I’ll jump in with what I’ve learned.

I’ve spent a considerable amount of time researching trans issues as it’s probably going to be the next big civil rights issues.

40, you frankly just look to troll and sow discord. If you truly want to learn and drop your prejudice, let me know. Then I’ll join the discussion further.

Some of you know I don’t view you like the other trolls, and PM me if you really want to engage in a dialogue on this issue. I ain’t got time to sift through trolls and WHATABOUTS.

I am not interested with the ins and outs of being Transgender.

I am supporting girls not having to compete against boys in women's sports. It isn't fair. It isn't right.

Is there a reason why you’re not interested in learning about transgender issues?

Is there any reason you support people born with an advantage in sports competing against those who don't?

I think everyone has a right to be who and what they want to be. I don't agree with using that choice as an advantage in competition to place a disadvantage on others.

I wonder if the winners are eligible for scholarships to college for the women’s sports they competed in ...

Anyone have any clue? ... just curious ...

Not directed at me, but I'll answer for myself anyhow.

I'll be blunt, I don't feel a strong pull to learn all about trans issues. It's probably because I don't know anyone that's trans, and have a really hard time empathizing. I can't even begin trying to understand what it's like to feel one way but not have the 'right' anatomy. Just being honest/blunt.

But in this case, I'm not sure that's a barrier to weighing in on the topic. If the stakes really are as high as the article tries to say (otherwise deserving athletes losing a shot at scholarship), then I don't think it's fair for female athletes to compete against anatomically male athletes.

I'm from CT. This is a big thing because two of our top sprinters were transgender (didn't read the article but it's something i'm kinda passionate about)


I'm a pretty big LGBT supporter. This is something i'm against (transgender athletes in women's athletics).


These girls are right. It can't be a coincidence that the two top sprinters in the state were transgender athletes. They get the attention. The chance to compete in regional competitions and so on, and the natural girls get overlooked for scholarships and recruiting because they miss the big track meets.


I've got no issue on choosing whatever bathroom you prefer. I've got no issue with gay marriage. I'm against discriminating in hospitals or businesses.

But i love athletics, and i love competition, and want a fair playing ground. What are the odds that the top two female sprinters in CT would be transgender. I mean, how many high school transgender kids are there? 1 in 200? We'll say 1 in 400 are girls. 393,000 Students in CT (so we'll say 195,000 females). And it just so happens that in those 195,000 females, the two fastest sprinters happen to be transgender?

I'm not very good with math, by i'm thinking .000625% chance (1/400) x (1/400).

Coincidences happen. But in 50 chances, that kind of coincidence is very unlikely


EDIT: My math might be off. It might be (1/200) x (1/200). That's a .0025% chance that the top two female sprinters in CT would be transgender and not have any physical advantage. I still say, extremely unlikely.

Either way, it's not right. Compete in athletics from the gender you were born in

At the risk of overcomplicating things and/or sounding like a simpleton on the matter (I am)... if you really want to blaze a trail in terms of being inclusive of trans athletes, you have to redefine/restructure the old Boys/Girls divisions. I would think a level playing field, in this case, would mean competitors face other athletes that are similarly equipped.

Alright, since this thread actually might be off to an okay start...

Here's some information from a transgender advocacy group.


And now for some other research...

Link

Another research study

Link

And finally one that focuses on testosterone:

Link
---------------------------
Look, I know I'm most likely not going to convince anyone with raw factual data. At least use this as a jumping point in forming an opinion, and go seek out communities different than yourself.

I hope everyone in this thread learns a little bit more by clicking these links. I'm not sure having a "eh, not interested" attitude helps your fellow American. I'm quite sure "eh, I'm not interested in abolitionist policies" is quite accepted today. Be mindful of how history will view you.

As I say to many "If you stand for nothing, Burr, what'll you fall for!?"

So, if there is no advantage, why don't we see transgender men competing in men's/boys sports? To make it clear: Someone born as a female, who later identifies as a male: Why don't we hear about them playing male sports or competing against males.

Now, this is different than a female wanting to play football as a female, or a female wrestling on a boy's team.

I don't have a problem if someone identifies as the opposite sex, but to claim, regardless of studies, that a male gains no advantage competing in a female sport against females seems just a tad 'out there' to me.

I'm gonna identify as a woman so i can compete in womens volleyball in the olympics.

i just want to be a good teammate...

Men have leagues, they play their own kind. Women have leagues, they play their own kind. Why not start a trans league and they play their own kind?

Posts 4 different times to tell us they/them won't discuss it. lol so predictable.


Allowing biological men to compete is physical sports against women is asinine. Allowing Biological females to compete against biological men if they actually can compete on an equal playing field is commendable and a testament to just what a freak athlete that female is. That should be applauded and marveled at, not men dominating a woman only field.


This isn’t complicated, but the “everyone is equal” crowd that wants to stand behind the “science” on everything religion related gets complete amnesia on basic biology when it comes to trans people.

Your nickname would be "Groper".

I appreciate your effort and I have no problem learning new information.. but there is an undeniable reason that almost every record that involves strength, speed, endurance.. the men's record is better (often significantly better) than the women's record.

If there is no difference then I propose we do away with boys and girls sports completely. Each high school can have one basketball team, one track team, one lacrosse team, etc... let's see how the title IX folks feel about that.

That would be fine.

Just for anyhow, I checked last track season's results for the Ohio state track meet.

In the 4X200, 2nd place time for the girls was 1:44, for the boys, second place was 1:29. 18th place for the boys was 1:38.

In the 1600 meter, girls winner had a time of 4 minutes 56 seconds, while the boys winner was 4 min. 23 seconds. Basically 8 seconds faster per LAP.

In the 4X100, girls winner was 49:44, boys winner was 43:3.

In the 400 meter, state champ for the girls was 55:82 seconds. Last place was 60:22 seconds. For the boys, the champ was timed at 49:25 seconds. About 6+ seconds faster than the girl. Last place for the girls was 6.22 seconds, last place for the boys was 50.74 seconds.


So, yeah, when I'm told transgender females (born a guy, identify as a girl) don't have an advantage by participating in female sports, I have to question the studies. If they are 'peer reviewed' I have to question the peers. Because it's bunk.

I think the plaintiffs have an argument. I think they picked the wrong one, though.

Maybe they could try something along the lines of unfair business practices.

I'm not sure how we give athletes level playing fields. Maybe go back to more coed leagues, though that brings its own issues.

I feel like a Chiefs fan trapped in a Browns body.

Thank you for the response. It feels good to have decent dialogue for once around here.



This is where we have to use factual data to guide our reasoning.

I very much understand that skeletally and physiologically about the concerns, yet research is showing despite the physical differences there's truly not much of an unfair advantage. It seems many studies posit that athletes who identify as trans compete at a similar level to the gender they actually identify with.

.

I see you didn't read the entire first sentence.



So when I see you type...


Shows me you aren't willing to step outside of your preconceived notions, nor do you really want to learn.

40 made a statement that showed perhaps he wanted to learn a bit more, and now it appears that isn't the case. Petey, oober, and others stated some points in here which showed an open mind.

Believe it or not, but from 2011-2015 we could dscuss these type of topics without the need for constant trolls or those who wish to sow chaos and dissension.

So I'll talk with you on these topics if you'd like, but your current behavior shows me you aren't ready to have these discussions.

I love to learn, but it does at this time appear you want people take your academic studies as fact, when in reality, they aren't. I posted factual track times from the state of Ohio: OHSAA. Ohio High School Athletic Association.

I'm sure every state would be similar. The fact remains that men/boys are not necessarily BETTER athletes, but they are stronger, quicker, faster, etc. To believe that a male body competing against females is not an advantage is just wrong.

I think you may have missed the studies looked at even more facts across the entire world, such as competition results with transgender athletes and women who tested with higher testosterone, and found no bias towards trans athletes winning more than the genders they identify with.

And that's cool and all. I posted real world facts. I don't live in 'studies' as much as I live in the real world where my eyes, and the times, force me to believe the truth.

Are you arguing the studies got their results from an imaginary planet?

Do you have a Oscar mayer between your legs? Then your a man. Do you have a V JJ between? then your a woman. As a man who has had a blood test that showed my testosterone level in the 800 hundreds as well as in the lower than 100's I can see both sides of this thing. BUt even when my test. was low, my estrogen, and my prolaction were higher than a nursing mothers. I never felt the urge to be a trans.

IMO which has changed over the last 50 + years Trans should be respected for who they are, even if I don't agree with them.

No. I'm saying they are wrong. Study schmuddy. If you, or they, think a male does not have an advantage when playing sports against a female, they are wrong.

They may be at a similar level in something like basketball, but in a sport measured in hundreds of a second, any physical advantage based on gender creates an unfair advantage.

Exactly. Which is why its important to study this before we go off on going from sheer reason in our heads.

I have found often times sheer reason in my head is correct. This is not a situation where it should be studied for years on end.

Bottom line, a male can identify as a female. I don't care. There is no way a male, regardless of how they identify, should be allowed to compete in a female sport, against females. Period. No study needed.

I once hammered my finger while pound a nail. I didn't need a study to tell me it was wrong. I knew it was wrong. But, in todays world, I bet I could find studies that show the danger/harm is not like one would think. It would be something like "only 1 out of 10 people......blah blah blah"

Today's academia apparently doesn't understand real life?

Of course not.

Accept your inner Chief, it’s okay. The NFL and the Haslam’s aren’t concerned with monogamy, why should you be? Celebrate your fandom, and embrace your love of CB and KC.

I shall need to study it endlessly!

If Trans athletes are allowed to enter female athletics over time female athletics will end as we know it. As a parent of an ex female athlete girls/women deserve a sport that they can play against other girls/women.

Females cannot compete against men in 90% of all sports. Not because they are not as good, not because they do not work as hard. Heck, many times they actually work harder. They just are not built with the same muscle mass. It is all biology.

I do not know what the right answer is for trans athletes. But, competing against girls/women is just wrong and will destroy girls/women sports.

j/c:

I have no problem w/the gay/bi/trans lifestyle. Do want you want.

However, I think it is unfair to girls who are forced to compete against folks who were born as males. My daughter was a top athlete. She was faster than most boys, but she was not faster than the fastest boys.

To work your butt off and train year round only to be beaten by a person who was born as a male is not fair. This isn't about rights, bathroom choices, lifestyle, etc. It's about an unfair competitive advantage that could cost girls awards, places on teams, and scholarships.

I think EVERYONE should have rights, not just those who are from minority groups.

Result of a slippery slope. But someone will say “ no such thing as a slippery slope, lol I

Maybe some day it will change but the biggest WNBA contract is about $115K/year. the league MINIMUM in the NBA is almost $1 million/year. Yet you never hear of a woman even making a run at trying to get on a roster for that kind of money.

It might happen at HS or JUCO where a girl makes the team but eventually the men will separate. The average man in the NBA is 7" taller than the average woman in the WNBA and the average vertical leap of a man in college basketball is 28".. for the ladies it's 19"

I think this sums it up well.

Exactly. One person's rights end when then infringe upon someone else's. By giving the"male" a right to compete with females, they are taking away the natural female's right to fair competition.

Dawg... you wanna cop that 'participation trophy.'
I see you.
Don't front-

Imo if a transgender wants to compete in sports they must compete in the male gender sports only.

Speaking somewhat sarcastically, yes.

And I'll be upfront that I didn't dive into that third quote. Too many big words that I need to look up and really think about. Can't do that justice while I'm at work, so keep in mind (and I am as well, I may be wrong) that I'm arguing from a disadvantage. I'll try to read up on the specifics of that study, and give it the attention it deserves.

What I was able to glean from the excerpts of your research kinda flies in the face of accepted scientific fact regarding the differences between male and female physiology. If what I did understand, I did so correctly, I think there's more of an argument to just do away with boys and girls competition and just have them all compete against each other.

The study says one thing, but years and years of track times, distances, weights, etc kinda shut that argument down, don't you think?

I'll dive into the quote for you:



This whole thing reminds me of the old quote: “If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bs.”

It also reminds me of this chart of how people actually follow scientific method:



I've highlighted two important parts in the quote though. It looks like they did the study on "Endurance sports", which is the type of sport where testosterone would have the smallest impact. It also looks like they had a sample size of 13 athletes. This just smells of finding whatever data matches your theory and then presenting it as conclusive.

I'm not sure what the point of the other studies he quoted were. Most of them were essentially, "Our study finds that trans athletes are unfairly discriminated against", and really, they reach that conclusion based strictly on the entire assumption that people with male physiology have no inherent advantage over ones with female physiology.

If that's really the case, then why do we not see male transgender people with female physiology dominating in male sports? Why do athletes from both genders continuously get themselves banned from competition by taking testosterone supplements?

I missed the endurance part. It also sounded like the studies focused on a small subset of female athletes and drew a conclusion beyond that population, but I'm not sure.

Look, I'm all for challenging popularly held beliefs... those referenced studies sound like they're trying to make the claim that, based on a couple physiological differences, trans athletes have no advantage over the average female athletes. But all I got from that was that the thing that quite a few high-profile athletes have been banned over (testosterone) doesn't actually make much of a difference.... I think you gotta come with a little more than that to convince anyone.

I found that summary to be more compelling evidence to have all athletes (male, female, trans, whatever) all compete against each other since we're apparently not all that different.

The study has been going on since before any of us on this board were born. The findings are conclusive.

Men hold the record in all major track and field events in terms of both record, but in average times as well. Shot Put, discuss, pole vault, 50 yard, 100 meter, 200 meter, the mile, relays etc....

Anyone can manipulate numbers and studies. The evidence coming from decades of actual sporting results do not lie.

In case anybody was wondering what it looks like when a 240 lb grown arse man, "Hannah", with size 15 feet gets to play Aussie rules football with the ladies.



The good news is "she" only broke one other players legs during the game. No advantage here. Just somebody an inch taller and 10 pounds heavier than Mack Wilson playing against the girls.

I would really love to see what science has to say about that.

Although I agree that men, transgender or whatever, should not compete with women in sports on all female teams, I have to interject that I've seen female athletes that could break this guy in half.

Pound for pound there are female fighters who could whoop 99% of the male population in their weight class. And I doubt that their opponent having a penis would make the Williams sisters shy away from a tennis match. So, while I would be cautious not to belittle the abilities of the female athletes, I agree that lessor athletically gifted men trying to take advantage of the genetic physical differences in females should not be allowed to compete with them. But at the end of the day, that choice should fall to the women they are competing against.

I had a friend with a 7th grade daughter playing football on a boys team. She played linebacker. The boys feared her, period. She played in 8th grade too, but it was a little harder. By ninth grade she lost interest. But I will never forget the looks on those boys and their parents faces when she was dominate in 7th grade, priceless.

This is not rocket science. DNA clearly shows what sex you are. It doesn't matter what you feel you are. That's an issue for a psychologist. The only REAL transgender are BORN that way and they are called hermaphrodites. They are born with a DNA defect where they are born with BOTH male and female sex organs. These people have REAL problems and gender identity issues. I had a freind growing up who was a hermaphrodite and her(her choice) pain was real and not an issue of mental illness like it is with the transgender nonsense.

Sadly we have a generation of idiots who want to coddle people with mental health issues and give them a fake reality so they don't have to deal with their problems and so society doesn't have to deal with the messiness of saying, "No." and invalidating their "feelings" but life is full of situations where your feelings simply don't matter.

Your either xx,xy, or xxxy. You are free to feel like what ever sex/gender floats your boat but your feelings will never change your reality. Your either born male/female/hermaphrodite and your DNA never lies.

Just because you have a feminine disposition/personality doesn't make you a woman. If you have male's physiology then you have an unfair PHYSICAL advantage over genuine females that makes sports competition unfair 99% of the time.

In fighting sports it's not just an unfair advantage but a potentially deadly one. Men have thicker bones and much denser muscle mass when you compare trained athletes of both sexes. It's not debatable. It's scientific fact. Even if they both weigh the same the male will have stronger bones and stronger muscles. It's neither safe or fair to have girls compete in sports against boys once they hit about 8th grade and the boys hit puberty.

The preponderance of hard scientific data is irrefutable. It doesn't matter what you feel because facts are facts.

Hannah isn't a guy, Hannah is a woman.. you transphobe.


And the 1% they can't beat are the men who compete at the same level as them on the mens side. If they could, they would. Bigger prize money, the marketing money would be insane for the world class women's fighter who took down a world class male fighter in the same weight class.


Tennis is a non-contact sport.. while men still have an advantage, it's not as great.. but on the men's tour, neither of the Williams sisters are winning tournaments.


I'm not all that concerned with the 7th grade.. she was probably as big or bigger than most of the boys. By 9th grade she lost interest, probably in part because she saw her advantage going away as boys caught and passed her in size...

j/c:

Guys........World class female athletes admit that men have a distinct physical advantage when it comes to speed, athleticism, and strength.

I am all for equal rights, but come on.......females have been exploited for centuries. Hell, they couldn't even vote in this country for the longest time.

How about we back off and let girls compete against girls instead of infiltrating their ranks and hurting their chances to even make a team, win medals, and get scholarships?

I do have a fairly amusing story that trends in the other direction, though. My son was a very talented baseball player. He pitched and played SS. He was on a traveling team and batted leadoff. Kind of a Ricky Henderson or Barry Bonds [early career] kind of offensive player. Worked the count and got walked a lot. Stole a ton of bases. Hit homeruns. Had a high average.

Well, he used to bunt a lot because he was really fast. His team played in a tournament in Michigan and there was this female pitcher who was really fast. My son showed bunt on the first pitch and the girl threw at his head. She proceeded to throw at his head on 3 more pitches and even hit him later in the game. LOL............he was so mad! He wanted to defend himself, but knew better than to go after a girl. I gotta say that girl was cool. She knew it and was giving him all kinds of looks. I always wondered what happened to her. Not only was she tough, but she had a ton of talent. She could really bring the heat!