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Posted By: BuckDawg1946 The world is still burning - 08/15/20 08:28 AM
This pandemic draws a direct parallel to the views of the Republican Party. The rest of the world gave this disease proper attention, and they are on the rebound, they get it.

The only college educated humans on planet earth, that deny anthropogenic climate change, are Republicans. You don’t get it, your kids won’t pay the price, biodiversity on planet earth will.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/12/hottest-decade-climate-crisis-2019

The past decade was the hottest ever recorded globally, with 2019 either the second or third warmest year on record, as the climate crisis accelerated temperatures upwards worldwide, scientists have confirmed.

Every decade since 1980 has been warmer than the preceding decade, with the period between 2010 and 2019 the hottest yet since worldwide temperature records began in the 19th century. The increase in average global temperature is rapidly gathering pace, with the last decade up to 0.39C warmer than the long-term average, compared with a 0.07C average increase per decade stretching back to 1880.

The past six years, 2014 to 2019, have been the warmest since global records began, a period that has included enormous heatwaves in the US, Europe and India, freakishly hot temperatures in the Arctic, and deadly wildfires from Australia to California to Greece.

Last year was either the second hottest year ever recorded, according to Nasa and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, or the third hottest year, as recorded by the UK Met Office. Overall, the world has heated up by about 1C on average since the pre-industrial era.

“As this latest assessment comprehensively confirms, we have just witnessed the warmest decade on record,” said Michael Mann, a climate scientist at Penn State University. “As other recent reports confirm, we must act dramatically over this next decade, bringing emissions down by a factor of two, if we are to limit warming below catastrophic levels of 1.5C that will commit us to ever-more dangerous climate change impacts.

“This is something every American should think about as they vote in the upcoming presidential election.”

The report, compiled by 520 scientists from more than 60 countries and published in the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, outlines the myriad ways that rising temperatures are altering the planet and human life, including:


Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/15/20 12:32 PM
Michael Mann faked the numbers in his research. There are 100s if not 100s of emails of him discussing fudging the numbers to reach his determined conclusions.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/15/20 12:52 PM
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Michael Mann faked the numbers in his research. There are 100s if not 100s of emails of him discussing fudging the numbers to reach his determined conclusions.


He did not. Also, he is literally one of 10s of thousands of climate researchers.

https://www.factcheck.org/2009/12/climategate/
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The world is still burning - 08/15/20 02:56 PM
For every fact of science there are conspiracy theories to dispute them.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/15/20 02:59 PM
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
For every fact of science there are conspiracy theories to dispute them.


Yes - but some topics are too important to allow conspiracy theories to dictate policy.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The world is still burning - 08/15/20 03:00 PM
I don't disagree with you there.
Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/15/20 07:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Michael Mann faked the numbers in his research. There are 100s if not 100s of emails of him discussing fudging the numbers to reach his determined conclusions.


He did not. Also, he is literally one of 10s of thousands of climate researchers.

https://www.factcheck.org/2009/12/climategate/


If you'd like to do your own research on this subject, and not just swallow the narative they've been force feeding you, start here.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor...e/#7c79b9127ba6

I'd suggest using a search engine other than google. That way you won't have to dig through 12 or so pages.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/15/20 07:19 PM
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Michael Mann faked the numbers in his research. There are 100s if not 100s of emails of him discussing fudging the numbers to reach his determined conclusions.


He did not. Also, he is literally one of 10s of thousands of climate researchers.

https://www.factcheck.org/2009/12/climategate/


If you'd like to do your own research on this subject, and not just swallow the narative they've been force feeding you, start here.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor...e/#7c79b9127ba6

I'd suggest using a search engine other than google. That way you won't have to dig through 12 or so pages.


I actually know a fair bit about this topic. Global warming is real.
Posted By: BuckDawg1946 Re: The world is still burning - 08/15/20 08:01 PM
After reading this board for a decade plus, Lyu knows his stuff. If we all sat down for a few beers, we would bury you under an avalanche of irrefutable information.

It wouldn’t be pretty.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: The world is still burning - 08/15/20 08:56 PM
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Michael Mann faked the numbers in his research. There are 100s if not 100s of emails of him discussing fudging the numbers to reach his determined conclusions.


He did not. Also, he is literally one of 10s of thousands of climate researchers.

https://www.factcheck.org/2009/12/climategate/


If you'd like to do your own research on this subject, and not just swallow the narative they've been force feeding you, start here.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor...e/#7c79b9127ba6

I'd suggest using a search engine other than google. That way you won't have to dig through 12 or so pages.


Google ranks pages by relevance and does a good job of serving up research info. If you are going that deep to find data to back your position that says all I need to know.
Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/15/20 09:36 PM
Originally Posted By: BuckDawg1946
After reading this board for a decade plus, Lyu knows his stuff. If we all sat down for a few beers, we would bury you under an avalanche of irrefutable information.

It wouldn’t be pretty.


You mean you'd regurgitate all the fables you've been fed, and never checked out for truth.
Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/15/20 09:48 PM
Originally Posted By: OldColdDawg
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Michael Mann faked the numbers in his research. There are 100s if not 100s of emails of him discussing fudging the numbers to reach his determined conclusions.


He did not. Also, he is literally one of 10s of thousands of climate researchers.

https://www.factcheck.org/2009/12/climategate/


If you'd like to do your own research on this subject, and not just swallow the narative they've been force feeding you, start here.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor...e/#7c79b9127ba6

I'd suggest using a search engine other than google. That way you won't have to dig through 12 or so pages.


Google ranks pages by relevance and does a good job of serving up research info. If you are going that deep to find data to back your position that says all I need to know.


Google's algorithms find the sites they want you to see. Test it out yourself.

Look up "Michael Mann fakes research" on Google and another search engine. See how many pages Google buries it. Try it with another search engine, other than yahoo, aol, mozilla. Try duck duck go. Please note the difference in results, and how Google thinks you're stupid.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The world is still burning - 08/15/20 09:50 PM
Google does show some sites more easily than others. That doesn't prove your point on whether or not man's impact on climate change is fake or not. Do you also believe in Qanon?
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: The world is still burning - 08/15/20 09:59 PM
Originally Posted By: BuckDawg1946
The world is still burning.



Good.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/15/20 10:07 PM
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell

You mean you'd regurgitate all the fables you've been fed, and never checked out for truth.


No. I don't. I mean I actually know a lot about this.
Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/15/20 10:31 PM
Originally Posted By: mgh888
Google does show some sites more easily than others. That doesn't prove your point on whether or not man's impact on climate change is fake or not. Do you also believe in Qanon?


Never been on that site. I've only heard about it from the libs on this site.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: The world is still burning - 08/15/20 11:04 PM
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Michael Mann faked the numbers in his research. There are 100s if not 100s of emails of him discussing fudging the numbers to reach his determined conclusions.


He did not. Also, he is literally one of 10s of thousands of climate researchers.

https://www.factcheck.org/2009/12/climategate/






If you'd like to do your own research on this subject, and not just swallow the narative they've been force feeding you, start here.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor...e/#7c79b9127ba6

I'd suggest using a search engine other than google. That way you won't have to dig through 12 or so pages.


I actually know a fair bit about this topic. Global warming is real.



I don't doubt that it is real. I don't doubt that possibly we are contributing.

I just don't think we can stop it. Glaciers covered much of Ohio down towards Kentucky. Those all melted back. Many people think the poles were lush landscapes at one time.

To me, it is a part of the earth's lifecycle. It changes. We go through periods of cold and periods of hot. We just haven't been able to measure it yet since it takes so long to take place.


We have been entering a hot phase for 10,000 years. What caused the Ice Age to end? My answer is the planet has been warming up, and that was long before we had air conditioners and hair spray. We were dragging our knuckles.


I am sure that in time ice will cover much of the ground again.



Think of the sun as a heart. It's what keeps everything alive on this planet. It expands and contracts, just as ours do. When it expands, it gets hotter. When it contracts it gets cooler. It's just not doing it 74 times a minute. It does it once every 10,000 years.

Seeing the estimates the sun will continue another 6 billion years, we are going to go through some cycles. Some cold, some hot. Mars might be the garden spot in a few thousand years as it might be too hot here.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/15/20 11:51 PM
Quote:

I don't doubt that it is real. I don't doubt that possibly we are contributing.

I just don't think we can stop it. Glaciers covered much of Ohio down towards Kentucky. Those all melted back. Many people think the poles were lush landscapes at one time.


The carbon dioxide levels over the last few decades are very different from anything we've ever seen. We are currently just North of 410 ppm. We can use Ice Core measurements from Antarctica to go back 800,000 years, and we've never seen a value above 300 ppm:

https://climate.nasa.gov/system/content_pages/main_images/203_co2-graph-061219.jpg


And we can ask the question, can humans have produced 200 ppm of Carbon dioxide over the last 100 years?

Let's just look at the raw amount of power that has been produced by burning fuels. To date, that is about 136,000 TWh:

blob:https://ourworldindata.org/e32c9a4e-20d4-479d-b119-46346951f3bf

The amount of C02 for each fuel is slightly different, but you get very close to the right answer by using the value for coal:

C + O2 = CO2

which releases 33940 KJ/kg of Coal.

Technically, for Gasoline/Oil you want to use C8H18 + 12.5 O2 -> 8 C02 + 9 * H20, but this is not a huge difference.

1 Wh = 3600J, so 136000*10^12 Wh = 5 * 10^20 J, which corresponds to 1.5e13 kg of coal. The answer is actually a bit higher (around 5 * 10^13 kg of coal -- because power plants aren't super efficient at producing power from burning fuel). climate.gov puts it at 3.5e13 kg (https://www.climate.gov/news-features/cl...uman-activities)

C weights 12 AU (by definition), and C02 weighs ~44 AU, so 1.5e16 kg of coal is around 44/12 * 5e13 kg = 1.5 * 10^14 kg of C02 that humans have released into the atmosphere.

Almost there! Now we just need to calculate the change in the C02 concentration in the atmosphere, if we add 1.5*10^14 kg of C02 to it.

The total atmosphere weighs around 5 * 10^18 kg, we are adding 1.5 * 10^14 kg of C02, so you would expect a mass fraction of around 0.03% (if none of the Carbon ever cycled). C02 is ~3x heavier than N2, so you get an answer that is very nicely 100 ppm of C02.

It's not a perfect calculation (and there are a lot of sources and sinks to worry about) including the ability of oceans and permafrost to remove some of the carbon we emit.

However, you can see that the rise in C02 very closely echos what is coming out of our factories and cars.

Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/15/20 11:56 PM
Quote:
Think of the sun as a heart. It's what keeps everything alive on this planet. It expands and contracts, just as ours do. When it expands, it gets hotter. When it contracts it gets cooler. It's just not doing it 74 times a minute. It does it once every 10,000 years.


Also, as a small note - the Sun's radius doesn't change very much over time. Also, when it gets smaller it get's hotter (Boltzman's law) -- this is why red giant stars are much cooler than main sequence stars.

The total solar power is relatively constant on ~million year timescales (and very constant, to within 0.1% over the last 100 years). That's mostly because the mean free path of an optical photon in the Sun's interior is very short. Even though it is moving at the speed of light, it takes photons about a million years to escape from the center of the Sun (where fusion takes place) to make it to the surface.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The world is still burning - 08/16/20 02:35 PM

Stop stating facts! wink
Posted By: Clemdawg Re: The world is still burning - 08/16/20 04:49 PM
Trumpfanz be like: saywhat
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/16/20 05:52 PM
Numbers are, unfortunately, a sure-fire way to shut down conversation on topics like this.

But the point is:

1.) We know that Humans have released enough C02 to increase the total amount of C02 in the atmosphere by 100-300 ppm. We can literally count the number of bricks of coal, and gallons of gas that we have burned -- and we can literally weight the atmosphere.

2.) We know that C02 blocks the transmission of infrared radiation. We can literally shine an infrared laser through some air -- then increase the amount of C02 in the air - and then shine the laser through again, and we can record less and less light getting through.

Mythbusters has a good demonstration of this (melting sculptures of Jaime is not how i'd measure this in the lab -- but the physics behind this is easy to do):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPRd5GT0v0I

3.) We know that global temperatures are rising at unprecedented rates. We have millions of thermometers around this world -- so measuring temperatures for the last few hundred years is easy.

The Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature Project (Founded by a team of scientists/funders who were initially skeptical of global warming) is one of the more famous examples. An interesting statistical model to deal with tons of effects relating to the exact placement of thermometers, day/night variations, etc.

https://berkeleyearth.org/

4.) We can do somewhat more clever (though not really any trickier measurements) to go back thousands, tens of thousands, or even millions of years to get measurements. A nice review by NASA is here:

https://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/schmidt_01/


There is a ton of evidence -- the argument for human-driven global warming is not particularly nuanced -- detailed, or hard to interpret. We've pushed a lot of C02 into the atmosphere, and C02 blocks the re-emission of infrared light, raising the temperature of the planet.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The world is still burning - 08/16/20 06:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
We know that global temperatures are rising at unprecedented rates.


Hey let's not talk specifics and things like the rate of change.... much easier to look at broad trends and claim that everything is cyclical ... or maybe do the Ted Cruz trick and pick a datum point that is short term, meaningless, but means we can manipulate what the data implies! and don't forget, if the treehuggers start winning the debate we can always laugh and talk about how the name changed from global warming to climate change.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The world is still burning - 08/16/20 07:02 PM
People can fully understand that if you keep throwing trash in your own back yard pretty soon what you own will be a dump. But somehow that logic escapes them when they think billowing smoke and trash into our air holds no consequences.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: The world is still burning - 08/17/20 12:36 AM
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
People can fully understand that if you keep throwing trash in your own back yard pretty soon what you own will be a dump. But somehow that logic escapes them when they think billowing smoke and trash into our air holds no consequences.



I said I know we are contributing.



Population has increased greatly. In 1800 there were under a billion people on the planet. Today estimates are 10-13 billion.

There are too many people on the planet. We are sucking the oil out of the ground. Burning large amounts of coal. It's not like 1800 where a family might burn 2-3 trees worth of wood a winter and the blacksmith might burn a hot fire with some coal to hammer out horseshoes, fire pokers, and forging some pots and pans.

The problem isn't what we are doing. It's the number of people demanding services.


I also get the ice core samples, but none the less, glaciers have been receding for a long time. Long before we had much impact on things.


That is truth and facts as well. Don't talk down to me.

Posted By: RocketOptimist Re: The world is still burning - 08/17/20 12:38 AM
Quote:
It's the number of people demanding services.

Posted By: Ballpeen Re: The world is still burning - 08/17/20 12:55 AM
So you don't think increased population is a big part of the problem?


Increased demand creates increased pressure.



Pretty simple concept IMO. Increased pressure on timber to build homes. Increased pressure to produce enough food to feed people. Increased pressure on gasoline production to power engines.


I don't have a problem with alternatives. I welcome that, but until we figure a way to make it competitive with what we are doing now, it just isn't going to work.

Electric cars are making some progress. Solar is still a ways off. Most people can't afford to install $40,000 worth of solar panels on the roof, let along a factory. Heating with gas and buying electricity from the power company is cheaper, and face it, people want cheaper.


Look at Wal Mart. People want to go there to buy the $12 shirt and not go to the department store to buy the $50 shirt.


People talk about it until it comes time to pay for it.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/17/20 01:02 AM
Originally Posted By: Ballpeen

Population has increased greatly. In 1800 there were under a billion people on the planet. Today estimates are 10-13 billion.

There are too many people on the planet. We are sucking the oil out of the ground. Burning large amounts of coal. It's not like 1800 where a family might burn 2-3 trees worth of wood a winter and the blacksmith might burn a hot fire with some coal to hammer out horseshoes, fire pokers, and forging some pots and pans.

The problem isn't what we are doing. It's the number of people demanding services.


Sure - but to go back a step farther - it is not "people demanding services" - it is the amount of fossil fuels we burn.

Maybe in 1950 this was an inescapable problem - society needed power, and we didn't know how to make enough power without burning fuel.

But that is not the way things are anymore. We have solar, wind, nuclear, biofuels... etc. etc. It would take an actual commitment -- and actual money -- but there is a way to avoid f'ing up the planet worse than we already have.

Quote:

I also get the ice core samples, but none the less, glaciers have been receding for a long time. Long before we had much impact on things.


Sure, but that was 4 degrees C over 10,000 years. We have warmed the planet about 1.5 degrees C over 100 years. The rates aren't even close to similar.

Also, like - the Earth was pretty different during the last ice age. Don't you think that if you converted to the middle of the Ice Age in the next 50 years, or so -- it would have a huge impact on society?
Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/17/20 01:08 AM
Here's some sites for you.

http://www.biocab.org/Carbon_Dioxide_Geological_Timescale.html
Co2 and temp over geologic time. It shows temp and co2 do not follow each other.

https://notrickszone.com/2010/10/04/4593/
Sunspot and temp comparison. This shows the sun controls our weather more than anything.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/sunspot
More on sunspots
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/17/20 07:11 AM
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Here's some sites for you.

http://www.biocab.org/Carbon_Dioxide_Geological_Timescale.html
Co2 and temp over geologic time. It shows temp and co2 do not follow each other.

https://notrickszone.com/2010/10/04/4593/
Sunspot and temp comparison. This shows the sun controls our weather more than anything.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/sunspot
More on sunspots


I think it means something that I am citing NASA, and you are citing "notrickzone.com"

Anyway -- Sunspots run on a strong 11 year cycle, with some longer (relatively random and unpredictable) variations.

The two minima (Cycle 24 and Cycle 25) have actually been some of the deepest and longest minima over the past century -- an effect which (according to the wizards at "notrickzone.com" - would lead to a decrease in the global temperature. But instead, nearly all of the hottest years on record have come over the last two solar cycles.

Even in the plot that they show - the sunspot number has gone down over the last 30 years, while global temperatures have spiked.

A good database for this is: http://www.sidc.be/silso/datafiles

Here is a public article about this from the National Weather Service:

https://www.weather.gov/news/190504-sun-activity-in-solar-cycle

Your last website, is actual science - by the way, but it does not claim that the Marauder Minimum caused the "Little Ice Age". This was an active area of study for awhile in the early 2000's, but there is a 70 year offset between the Little Ice age and the Marauder Minimum (which actually came later).

See:

https://www.swsc-journal.org/articles/swsc/full_html/2017/01/swsc170014/swsc170014.html

and a nice overview by NASA:

https://climate.nasa.gov/blog/2953/there-is-no-impending-mini-ice-age/

which also includes a much easier to read plot of solar irradience vs. global temperatures.
Posted By: RocketOptimist Re: The world is still burning - 08/17/20 07:19 AM
Just remember you’re talking to a guy who treats Breitbart as gospel, believes sharia “no-go” zones exist in the UK, and refuses to face the reality of the Dixiecrats and the southern strategy.

You’re not going to get far. He’ll probably source Ken Hamm within a post or two at this point.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The world is still burning - 08/17/20 02:45 PM
Say anything you like. Some people realize exactly what you're saying. Which is why they want to invest in alternative energy.

Common sense dictates that when you are burning more fossil fuels the negative impact is far greater than it was in 1950.

Still others wish to cling to the old ways trashing our planet even further. Human beings are supposed to have a thinking brain which allows them to adapt giving changing situations.

While some think we should try to lessen our impact by using energy we can produce without trashing the planet, others cry about the poor coal industry and promote the old ways that helped get us to where we are now.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: The world is still burning - 08/17/20 02:48 PM
COAL! Beautiful freshly washed really clean coal! Trump brought back all those coal jobs for nothing... NO HE DIDN'T because even that imbecile knows coal is dead.

It's time to do something GOPers despise and move forward with something new.
Posted By: Swish Re: The world is still burning - 08/17/20 02:49 PM
Trump administration finalizes plan to open up Alaska wildlife refuge to drilling

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-enviro...alaska-wildlife

Sometimes I wish I knew how to hack people.

I wouldn’t steal info, or money, or anything.

I would simply drop a giant ass middle finger to every trump supporter in the country, and let them know that the more time goes on, the more I despise them and their views.

Every time they logged on to their computer or unlocked their phone, a big ass middle finger is there to great them.
Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/17/20 02:56 PM
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Here's some sites for you.

http://www.biocab.org/Carbon_Dioxide_Geological_Timescale.html
Co2 and temp over geologic time. It shows temp and co2 do not follow each other.

https://notrickszone.com/2010/10/04/4593/
Sunspot and temp comparison. This shows the sun controls our weather more than anything.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/sunspot
More on sunspots


I think it means something that I am citing NASA, and you are citing "notrickzone.com"

Anyway -- Sunspots run on a strong 11 year cycle, with some longer (relatively random and unpredictable) variations.

The two minima (Cycle 24 and Cycle 25) have actually been some of the deepest and longest minima over the past century -- an effect which (according to the wizards at "notrickzone.com" - would lead to a decrease in the global temperature. But instead, nearly all of the hottest years on record have come over the last two solar cycles.

Even in the plot that they show - the sunspot number has gone down over the last 30 years, while global temperatures have spiked.

A good database for this is: http://www.sidc.be/silso/datafiles

Here is a public article about this from the National Weather Service:

https://www.weather.gov/news/190504-sun-activity-in-solar-cycle

Your last website, is actual science - by the way, but it does not claim that the Marauder Minimum caused the "Little Ice Age". This was an active area of study for awhile in the early 2000's, but there is a 70 year offset between the Little Ice age and the Marauder Minimum (which actually came later).

See:

https://www.swsc-journal.org/articles/swsc/full_html/2017/01/swsc170014/swsc170014.html

and a nice overview by NASA:

https://climate.nasa.gov/blog/2953/there-is-no-impending-mini-ice-age/

which also includes a much easier to read plot of solar irradience vs. global temperatures.


As for that 70 year offset, you really didn't expect immediate results from a minimum, did you?

We're entering what is supposed to be an elongated minimum, so we'll have our answers hopefully in our lifetimes.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/17/20 04:27 PM
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell


As for that 70 year offset, you really didn't expect immediate results from a minimum, did you?


Well - I certainly didn't expect the effect to come before the cause...

Marauder Minimum is 1645-1715.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunder_Minimum

Little Ice Age is Traditionally Dated 1550-1850
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age

You literally have no idea what you are talking about.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: The world is still burning - 08/17/20 05:04 PM
Originally Posted By: PrplPplEater
Originally Posted By: BuckDawg1946
The world is still burning.



Good.


I used to say, if the atmosphere catches fire, we'd have to admit we are in the end times, armogeddan.

Early news report today, Calif: it's on fire, oh really still?
" First time in history, National Weather Service had to issue a fire tornado warning"
Whaaaat!
Posted By: cle23 Re: The world is still burning - 08/17/20 06:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Lyuokea



The carbon dioxide levels over the last few decades are very different from anything we've ever seen. We are currently just North of 410 ppm. We can use Ice Core measurements from Antarctica to go back 800,000 years, and we've never seen a value above 300 ppm:

https://climate.nasa.gov/system/content_pages/main_images/203_co2-graph-061219.jpg


And we can ask the question, can humans have produced 200 ppm of Carbon dioxide over the last 100 years?

Let's just look at the raw amount of power that has been produced by burning fuels. To date, that is about 136,000 TWh:

blob:https://ourworldindata.org/e32c9a4e-20d4-479d-b119-46346951f3bf

The amount of C02 for each fuel is slightly different, but you get very close to the right answer by using the value for coal:

C + O2 = CO2

which releases 33940 KJ/kg of Coal.

Technically, for Gasoline/Oil you want to use C8H18 + 12.5 O2 -> 8 C02 + 9 * H20, but this is not a huge difference.

1 Wh = 3600J, so 136000*10^12 Wh = 5 * 10^20 J, which corresponds to 1.5e13 kg of coal. The answer is actually a bit higher (around 5 * 10^13 kg of coal -- because power plants aren't super efficient at producing power from burning fuel). climate.gov puts it at 3.5e13 kg (https://www.climate.gov/news-features/cl...uman-activities)

C weights 12 AU (by definition), and C02 weighs ~44 AU, so 1.5e16 kg of coal is around 44/12 * 5e13 kg = 1.5 * 10^14 kg of C02 that humans have released into the atmosphere.

Almost there! Now we just need to calculate the change in the C02 concentration in the atmosphere, if we add 1.5*10^14 kg of C02 to it.

The total atmosphere weighs around 5 * 10^18 kg, we are adding 1.5 * 10^14 kg of C02, so you would expect a mass fraction of around 0.03% (if none of the Carbon ever cycled). C02 is ~3x heavier than N2, so you get an answer that is very nicely 100 ppm of C02.

It's not a perfect calculation (and there are a lot of sources and sinks to worry about) including the ability of oceans and permafrost to remove some of the carbon we emit.

However, you can see that the rise in C02 very closely echos what is coming out of our factories and cars.


Originally Posted By: ErikInHell


Here's some sites for you.

http://www.biocab.org/Carbon_Dioxide_Geological_Timescale.html
Co2 and temp over geologic time. It shows temp and co2 do not follow each other.

https://notrickszone.com/2010/10/04/4593/
Sunspot and temp comparison. This shows the sun controls our weather more than anything.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/sunspot
More on sunspots


This is my favorite arguement ever. "Here is tons of scientific data and the math behind it, broken down in great detai."

"But here is a bunch of random websites that say otherwise."
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/17/20 07:07 PM
Looking at data is fun -- so I just went and downloaded the raw data of the Global Temperature Anomaly and the Sunspot number, and plotted them against each other.

I used the Global Temperature Anomaly Data from Berkeley Earth:

http://berkeleyearth.lbl.gov/auto/Global/Complete_TAVG_complete.txt

And I used the Sunspot Number from SILSO, which is a worldwide authority on solar observations:

http://www.sidc.be/silso/DATA/SN_m_tot_V2.0.txt

Conveniently, both of these databases start in 1750. Then I plotted them. The original data is a bit messy, since there are ~4000 datapoints:

[img]http://imgur.com/a/Q8TIiK0[/img]

So then I just smoothed everything by a Gaussian of 1 yr, to make the data more readable.

e.g. (for those that care):
smoothed_sunspots = scipy.ndimage.gaussian_filter1d(sunspots, 12)
smoothed_temp = scipy.ndimage.gaussian_filter1d(temp, 12)

[img]http://imgur.com/giCcAGd[/img]

Now, you can pretty clearly see the 11 year solar cycle in the sunspot data, in some years the solar maxima are more intense than others (especially in the 1940s) -- the minima all look about the same.

The rising global temperatures are also very apparent, especially over the last 50 years or so.

Now, you can go one step farther and try to eliminate the 11-year cycle. I just take the raw data and smear it out again by a 11~yr Gaussian (this doesn't totally eliminate things, since it is a rolling average, but it makes it invisible).

And now you get this:

[img]http://imgur.com/Rcwzte2[/img]

And now, you really see the lack of a correlation between Sunspot number and temperature. Sunspot numbers have been decreasing significantly for the last 60 years or so, and global temperatures have been spiking. There is also no correlation between the decrease in sunspot numbers between 1850 and 1900 and the rise in temperatures between 1850 and now.

There is one word of caution about this last figure -- a Gaussian kernel smoothing can produce artifacts near the endpoints of the dataset. Notably here, the spike in the global temperature levels out over the last few years of the data.

That is purely an artifact of the fact that you are choosing:

T(x) = sum_(x-T)^(x+T) T(x+t)*exp(-t/T) and there are no datapoints in the future, so the most recent data gets heavily biased (and smeared out, by older data).

More succinctly, if you smear by a 11 year Gaussian, data over the last 11 years or so is going to look weird.


Edit: Do imgur links not work here?
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 02:22 AM
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Here's some sites for you.

http://www.biocab.org/Carbon_Dioxide_Geological_Timescale.html
Co2 and temp over geologic time. It shows temp and co2 do not follow each other.

https://notrickszone.com/2010/10/04/4593/
Sunspot and temp comparison. This shows the sun controls our weather more than anything.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/sunspot
More on sunspots


I think it means something that I am citing NASA, and you are citing "notrickzone.com"

Anyway -- Sunspots run on a strong 11 year cycle, with some longer (relatively random and unpredictable) variations.

The two minima (Cycle 24 and Cycle 25) have actually been some of the deepest and longest minima over the past century -- an effect which (according to the wizards at "notrickzone.com" - would lead to a decrease in the global temperature. But instead, nearly all of the hottest years on record have come over the last two solar cycles.

Even in the plot that they show - the sunspot number has gone down over the last 30 years, while global temperatures have spiked.

A good database for this is: http://www.sidc.be/silso/datafiles

Here is a public article about this from the National Weather Service:

https://www.weather.gov/news/190504-sun-activity-in-solar-cycle

Your last website, is actual science - by the way, but it does not claim that the Marauder Minimum caused the "Little Ice Age". This was an active area of study for awhile in the early 2000's, but there is a 70 year offset between the Little Ice age and the Marauder Minimum (which actually came later).

See:

https://www.swsc-journal.org/articles/swsc/full_html/2017/01/swsc170014/swsc170014.html

and a nice overview by NASA:

https://climate.nasa.gov/blog/2953/there-is-no-impending-mini-ice-age/

which also includes a much easier to read plot of solar irradience vs. global temperatures.


May I ask how old you are?
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 07:17 AM
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog

May I ask how old you are?


Why would that matter?
Posted By: PerfectSpiral Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 11:27 AM
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog

May I ask how old you are?


Why would that matter?


He needs a baseline for ridicule purposes.
Posted By: PerfectSpiral Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 11:35 AM
Quote:
I just don't think we can stop it.


yeah that’s a good reason to roll back gov’t regulations and to continue polluting our air, water, earth. Pffft trump supporters.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 12:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog

May I ask how old you are?


Why would that matter?


I wasn't being snarky or attacking you. It matters because people of my age and older can attest to how much worse things were back in the 50s, 60s, and even 70s. I was just wondering if you were around back then?
Posted By: fishtheice Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 12:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog


It matters because people of my age and older can attest to how much worse things were back in the 50s, 60s, and even 70s.



Amen!
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 12:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog

May I ask how old you are?


Why would that matter?


I wasn't being snarky or attacking you. It matters because people of my age and older can attest to how much worse things were back in the 50s, 60s, and even 70s. I was just wondering if you were around back then?


Do you mean that factories and chimneys were much worse back then - spewing out heavy smoke & pollution? I don't want to assume but that's the way I read it.

I think that numbers and mass production would be the biggest factor - though I don't claim to be an expert. Just look at the number of vehicles on the road - 1960 there were 61 million cars. Today there are 287 million. Each one producing an average of about 4.6 tons of carbon monoxide each year. And that's with today's EPA regulations and lower emissions.

While I can see why things might be perceived one way as we think back to tall chimneys spewing black noxious gas into the skies - looking at the data and exactly how much pollution we are producing would be more accurate and take the 'perception' out of the debate.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 12:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog

I wasn't being snarky or attacking you. It matters because people of my age and older can attest to how much worse things were back in the 50s, 60s, and even 70s. I was just wondering if you were around back then?


Yeah - the regulations imposed in the 70s were really excellent ideas - weren't they?

If only we could do the same thing for C02 -- given that the amount of C02 released every year is still going up drastically (worldwide, and holding constant in the United states). This is unlike PM2.5 particles, aerosols and CFCs, which have all gone down.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 01:12 PM
Never mind. I was trying to have a "conversation." You seemingly want to have an "argument."

Carry on...
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 01:25 PM
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Never mind. I was trying to have a "conversation." You seemingly want to have an "argument."

Carry on...


Ah yes - a "conversation" where you use your "wisdom" to teach young people the undeniable truths that can only be gained, not by looking any of the evidence, but by remembering how things used to be.

Like I've mentioned previously, I know a lot about this topic -- don't pull some condescending "young people don't understand the way things used to be" crap." -- Or if you do pull it, maybe try and back it up?
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 05:18 PM
I believe we're talking about two separate issues. Yes, we did clean up our waterways to some extent. And those who went above and beyond federal regulations, like Los Angeles also cleaned up their smog issues.

But just look around at what that got them. They get called tree huggers and are labeled negatively for doing the right thing. Also, that's what is close to the earth that we can see with our own two eyes. It doesn't account for the atmosphere above it. Air is something we all know exits even though we can't see it. We know because of the impact it has on humans. People die when they can't breathe in air.

Many of us have faith in God even though we can't see him. Human beings don't seem to have much of a feeling of need to take precautions for something they do not see as some immediate threat. They ignore the "an once of prevention is worth a pound of cure" saying we're all taught growing up.

Much like air, global warming is proven. The fact the carbon we put into the atmosphere is a big contribution has been proven. And the thing is, once it's too late to change, no measures can correct it.

It's a simple matter of understanding that in some ways we have cleaned up our planet. But it was only the things we could see. Smog over L.A. Rivers burning. It's the thing we can't see that is the biggest threat. And that threat is being ignored.

I know you'll find this part political, but hey, this is the political forum. wink But it is a prime example of the point I'm trying to make.

Some people understood that a pandemic was inevitable. Ever since the days of Bush preparations were made for such an event. An expert panel was appointed. A playbook for such an event was produced. Yet not only was it ignored, but the playbook was trashed and the panel was disbanded.

Then we were told, "“nobody could have predicted this".

That's exactly what's happening here.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 05:53 PM
I don't think we are talking about two separate issues. I do think that my point is being misinterpreted. I asked the dude a question and he got snarky. Whatever...I'm not feeling well enough to argue.

For those of us who were alive in the '60s, we remember that our waters were severely polluted. People were not even allowed to enter Lake Erie. Raw, toxic sewage was being dumped into our rivers, lakes, creeks, streams, oceans etc. The color of the sky was orange in black in almost every city that was part of the Steel Belt. There were 2-4 inches of black soot on window ledges, roofs, and other structures. The air stunk to high heaven. While there are more cars now, the fuel being burned was worse for the atmosphere. Forests were being raped. Strip mines were everywhere in certain parts of the country. People used to burn their garbage in large metal drums in their back yards.

With that said, I consider myself an environmentalist and have supported that movement even to this day. I was just trying to add some levity to the conversation.

Studies have been done by both sides and we hear conflicting reports. It depends on who is "funding" the research.

I know three things. Environmental laws and practices are better now than they were in the 1960s. The air is and water is in better shape now than it was then. And finally, we still are doing too much to pollute the earth. One of my biggest concerns is how we are invading forests/jungles and displacing the wildlife that inhabited those areas. They have to go somewhere and that is usually around people. Thus, we will continue to see an escalation in the number of viruses [that are similar to Covid-19] unleashed on mankind. And the worst part is that we are the greedy idiots who are providing the conditions to cause pandemics that can wipe out our own species.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 06:25 PM
Limbaugh says, 10 million in California are having rolling black outs-
I heard about that yesterday, power goes off for 1 hour, for everybody and it rolls around to the next group,

Limbaugh says, it's in part to California going away from foss-- Natural gas sources specifically, and going with solar and wind energy.

So, another one for the conservative right!

You can't put a windmill on the front of a tank. thumbsup

(now let's see how the left spins this to be the opposite, rofl)
Not funny to Californians though!
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 06:27 PM
I think the reply nailed the issue - carbon dioxide emissions. Couple that with deforestation ... you have a bad combo. Climate change isn't about how polluted our rivers and waterways are.

30 years ago my environmental studies teacher railed against an area the size of the country of Wales being cut down every year from the Amazon rain-forests ... and it hasn't slowed down. Interesting article here for any that care to read it:

"The world’s tropical forests are shrinking at a staggering rate, the equivalent of 30 football pitches per minute. "
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 06:29 PM
Originally Posted By: THROW LONG
Limbaugh says, 10 million in California are having rolling black outs-
I heard about that yesterday, power goes off for 1 hour, for everybody and it rolls around to the next group,

Limbaugh says, it's in part to California going away from foss-- Natural gas sources specifically, and going with solar and wind energy.

So, another one for the conservative right!

You can't put a windmill on the front of a tank. thumbsup

(now let's see how the left spins this to be the opposite, rofl)
Not funny to Californians though!

Limbaugh is great at framing the argument... no doubt the truth is not as black and white as he framed it but hey ho. It's not like he gets paid by big oil or anything right.
Posted By: Rishuz Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 06:34 PM
Originally Posted By: THROW LONG
Limbaugh says, it's in part to California going away from foss-- Natural gas sources specifically, and going with solar and wind energy.


This is true. As Lyuokdea would say, I know a lot about this topic.

It's not that switching from fossil fuels to renewable generation is a bad idea, it's the political pressure to retire fossil fuels so quickly before a plan of replacing them with renewables could really be hashed out. Additionally, storing renewable energy is still in its infancy and renewables themselves, due to their intermittent nature, need fossil fuels to back them up.

It's not just California that is suffering from this heat wave, it's the entire western US. The record heat wave plus the scarcity of generation in the western US has many western states in a bind currently.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 06:35 PM
I actually agree with a lot of what you say. I would suggest you take a look at all of the regulations that have been repealed over the past four years and let me know the direction you feel we are headed in now.

The only place we really disagree is that part where I mentioned, "the things you can't see" in my previous post.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 06:43 PM
FWIW: I wasn't even trying to argue when I asked that one guy how old he was. I was just curious if he was alive during that time.

The entire thing is complex.

Think about it. While I support the environmental movement, we have to also look at the economy and the quality of life of our people. I mentioned the Steel Belt earlier. It is now called the Rust Belt and so many folks who were once gainfully employed fell on hard times.

I don't pretend to have the correct answers, but I think there has to be some sort of balance.
Posted By: Swish Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 06:45 PM
so anyways,

hopefully the Biden/harris reverses the trash ass decision by the trump administration to allow drilling in the alaska refuge.

then they need to clean up the EPA ASAP. the trump administration is an infection that needs to be cleansed all over the country, so this will be a monumental task i hope the biden team is up for.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 06:56 PM
I didn't mention you asking him his age. That's between you and whoever commented on that aspect.

I would suggest you may wish to consider that many of those plants that are now shut down, leading it to now be called the rust belt, may have direct connection with why the air stunk to high heaven and had a different color to it. As to why the suit was building up on the window seals and roofs.

It's a terrible thing that all of the jobs that were once here are now gone. Yet millions of new jobs would be created if we actually focused on changing over to renewable energy. We could once again have those jobs without the stink and suit.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 07:15 PM
What's up with the thing making rounds on social media about Trump wanting to open the grand canyon for uranium mining? Any truth to that? I never clicked through to a story, just saw it and shook my head.

EDIT: Just found this:

https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/...ing/3087095001/
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 07:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Rishuz
Originally Posted By: THROW LONG
Limbaugh says, it's in part to California going away from foss-- Natural gas sources specifically, and going with solar and wind energy.


This is true. As Lyuokdea would say, I know a lot about this topic.

It's not that switching from fossil fuels to renewable generation is a bad idea, it's the political pressure to retire fossil fuels so quickly before a plan of replacing them with renewables could really be hashed out. Additionally, storing renewable energy is still in its infancy and renewables themselves, due to their intermittent nature, need fossil fuels to back them up.

It's not just California that is suffering from this heat wave, it's the entire western US. The record heat wave plus the scarcity of generation in the western US has many western states in a bind currently.


I don't doubt that the switch to less reliable power-sources (wind/solar) - has led to some of the issues with rolling blackouts.

But rolling blackouts in the middle of the summer aren't exactly new to California either. Remember the rolling blackouts of the early 2000s?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_electricity_crisis

Part of the issue (which, I agree, is going to be exacerbated by solar and wind power) - is that companies never want there to be too much power, because that is just a loss for them -- back in 2017 electricity in parts of California and Texas was free (or below free) - because there were very windy/sunny not-hot days:

https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-electricity-solar/

I think there are a couple ways to move forward:

1.) I'm a huge proponent of nuclear power. This is an area where grassroots organizations have really missed the boat (even causing physicists like Merkel to stop expanding nuclear power). Nuclear is clean, reliable - very safe -- and while the nuclear waste storage issue is real, the effect is overstated.

2.) We need government money to build methods for regulating solar/wind grids. Technologies like Molten Salt Wind plants are somewhat less effective in power/$, which is why corporations build them less frequently -- but they are very reliable 24/7 power plants. You could even build a plant to pump water up a hill when there is too much power, and let it run back down when there is too little. Distribution technologies like this don't make a lot of money, but they are important for the transition to a low-carbon future.

**Note: Obviously, the game changer would be cheap battery storage -- and we should fund R&D there -- but there are guaranteed technologies that already exist which could store solar/wind power.**

3.) Carbon Taxes. Praise the free market and start setting a tax on carbon emissions that can be bought and sold - raising the price of the tax, by say 10%/year. Companies like Tesla have already done wonderful things for electric vehicles -- and we can give them a huge advantage with small changes to tax law.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 07:45 PM
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG

It's a terrible thing that all of the jobs that were once here are now gone. Yet millions of new jobs would be created if we actually focused on changing over to renewable energy. We could once again have those jobs without the stink and suit.


Absolutely agree - and I really feel for people in coal mining towns (my grandparents and others included) - who got left out to dry when the mines closed and the money went away.

We could build the largest solar plants in the world there -- build jobs, produce income, send the power to DC and NYC.

Solar Power = Jobs, there is a lot more work in building solar plants than in maintaining coal/natural gas plants. It would be a boon for workers.
Posted By: Rishuz Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 08:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
I don't doubt that the switch to less reliable power-sources (wind/solar) - has led to some of the issues with rolling blackouts.


It's not necessarily the switch to those resources that has led to some of the issues. The switch is still happening. Fossil fuel plants are being retired at a greater rate than they are being replaced by renewable resources. Much of this is due to political pressure to be green. The plans to do this switchover needed more time to be thought through.

Quote:
But rolling blackouts in the middle of the summer aren't exactly new to California either. Remember the rolling blackouts of the early 2000s?


We are not just talking about California currently. The entire western US is up against it.

Quote:
Part of the issue (which, I agree, is going to be exacerbated by solar and wind power) - is that companies never want there to be too much power, because that is just a loss for them -- back in 2017 electricity in parts of California and Texas was free (or below free) - because there were very windy/sunny not-hot days:


That's just called business. It's a balancing act. If you overbuild the system or over invest there's a chance you won't get a return on your investment if it's not used. That's not what we are seeing right now. See my earlier point about fossil fuel retirements.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 08:20 PM
From the figures I've seen we're still giving oil and gas somewhere between 14 and 20 billion a year in subsidies. I don't see why anyone would advocate continuing to subsidize the past rather than being investing in the obvious future. I mean if we're talking about return on investment moving forward.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 09:23 PM
Quote:
We are not just talking about California currently. The entire western US is up against it.


Good point - I just meant that there are a lot of factors at play.

Quote:
That's just called business. It's a balancing act. If you overbuild the system or over invest there's a chance you won't get a return on your investment if it's not used. That's not what we are seeing right now. See my earlier point about fossil fuel retirements.


Yes - but that is the role of government. The most economical solution might be to have 1 week of rolling blackouts per year.

Similarly, the most economical way to run a hospital might be to cut some corners and have 1% of patients die.

I agree with you that this has been mismanaged -- and we have come up with some "worst world" scenario where we shut down coal plants to early, but also don't set up the right green technologies that can actually handle the load.

I don't believe that the technologies don't already exist. It just would take a real investment to implement them.
Posted By: Rishuz Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 09:34 PM
They exist and are being built, but it takes time. Much of the western US is committed to going green and many renewable projects are in the works.

That will take care of at least getting back some capacity on the system lost due to fossil fuel retirements. How to back up the capacity when a cloud comes or the wind stops blowing will be another big concern once all of it is up and running. That's kind of a second layer to this.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 10:16 PM
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Say anything you like. Some people realize exactly what you're saying. Which is why they want to invest in alternative energy.

Common sense dictates that when you are burning more fossil fuels the negative impact is far greater than it was in 1950.

Still others wish to cling to the old ways trashing our planet even further. Human beings are supposed to have a thinking brain which allows them to adapt giving changing situations.

While some think we should try to lessen our impact by using energy we can produce without trashing the planet, others cry about the poor coal industry and promote the old ways that helped get us to where we are now.



I am all for reliable alternatives. The problem is we don't have them.

Nuclear is the most reliable, but people don't want that. I think the last Nuke plant commissioned was TVA'a Watt's Bar about 50 miles up the lake from me. Might have been early 80's.

Wind, forget wind. It might supplement, but you aren't going to power a city with a few windmills.

Solar holds some possibilities, but at this point is just isn't there. Then you have to be able to store it, and face it, you have places that just don't get all that much sun. It may have more potential in Florida and Arizona, less in Washington and northern Ohio. Some places are cloudy 60% of the time.

We have a lot of hydro here in the Tennessee Valley. There are a series of dams. I live on the lake a mile up from Chickamauga Dam. Wonderful structure, but not enough to power the area. Then you have to flood vast areas to have enough water stored to power 6 turbines.. Raccoon Mtn,. just west of town. The largest man made lake in the world that isn't damed.

At night they pump water up in to the lake. When TVA needs power during peak, they release it down tubes to feed the power house at the base of the mountain..before 911 you could tour the place, it was like something from a James Bond movie....pretty impressive. Got to say, I live a pretty great place in this country.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=rac...l&FORM=VIRE

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=chi...l&FORM=VIRE

I start my morning 5 miles walks at the base of the dam.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 10:34 PM
Sorry, I don't think you forget about wind power. We aren't trying to replace fossil fuels with one thing. It's not a straight swap ... it's a blend of things. Wind will be part of the solution - large or small it's part of the solution. As has been mentioned here and many times before, storing the energy (efficiently) is a large part of the challenge right now.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/18/20 11:58 PM
Quote:

Solar holds some possibilities, but at this point is just isn't there. Then you have to be able to store it, and face it, you have places that just don't get all that much sun. It may have more potential in Florida and Arizona, less in Washington and northern Ohio. Some places are cloudy 60% of the time.


People always say that -- but the effect is not near as large as people think.




Germany is producing 9% of it's total power via solar (compared to the US at 1.2%). This is despite the fact that Germany gets significantly less sunshine than Ohio.
Posted By: GMdawg Re: The world is still burning - 08/19/20 12:32 PM
Quote:
We could once again have those jobs without the stink and suit.


Cool I always heated wearing a stinking suit. brownie
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The world is still burning - 08/19/20 02:58 PM
Another thing that amazes me is people have the mind set of information they got ten or fifteen years ago regarding solar and wind. Since that time so many improvements have been made that they are both far more efficient and cost effective than they were then. Even the cost of solar has been greatly reduced.

Solar Technology Got Cheaper and Better in the 2010s. Now What?

No other power-generation technology matched solar’s pace of cost reduction this past decade. The game will change again in the 2020s.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/...-2010s-now-what
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The world is still burning - 08/19/20 03:06 PM
I don't think we're disagreeing here. I don't believe that green energy is at the stage where it can take over for fossil fuels. What I do believe is that we are at the point that we could be using a lot more green energy and a lot less fossil fuels.

And yes, I've studied the TVA. A time in history where a Democratic president brought electricity, business and jobs to the south in the worst of times. A simple thank you to him will do quite nicely. Heck, if not for that the south may still be using kerosene lamps and outhouses. wink

I have an aunt in Kentucky who hates when I bring that up. wink
Posted By: PerfectSpiral Re: The world is still burning - 08/19/20 04:31 PM
rofl

Ok Boomer. We’ll take it from here. rofl
Posted By: FloridaFan Re: The world is still burning - 08/19/20 06:11 PM
j/c

There are alternative energy source, more specifically, solar and wind. But both have drawbacks other than the lack of wind or sun.

Solar, takes a lot of open land with good exposure to be efficient. Considerably more land for the same amount of power to fossil fuels. It takes like 3-4 acres to generate 1 megawatt of power. It think a typical plant is around 500MW, so we are talking 1500-2000 acres.

A wind turbine produces around 1.5MW,with a typical wind farm using just over 1 acre per turbine, or roughly 3/4 acre per MW. Roughly 375 acres for 500MW.

The average fossil fuel power plant uses like 300 acres. SO close to wind.

And we currently have no viable option for storing this power for low production days/nights, so we still need an alternate form of production for those times.

Then factor in that wind turbines are tall and large, and many people/communities will fight to not have to look at them out their back doors. They all want cheap renewable power, but only if it's not in their back yard.

And we won't even get into the bird issue. wink

If I was a power company in the south, looking at the future, I would start leasing solar panels to residents, and include battery storage. A steady constant stream of revenue from leasing, while usually providing a surplus to feed back to the grid.

If my power company told me I could lease a solar system from them for $150ish a month, I'd take it in a heartbeat.



Posted By: archbolddawg Re: The world is still burning - 08/19/20 06:18 PM
I have a wind turbine about 400 yards from my house. No, it's not mine. I don't recall its capacity, but it's been there for 10+ years. It still hasn't paid for itself, let alone saved anyone any money, with the breakdowns, the tri annual "routine maintenance" etc.

But it's cool. About half of it was paid for with tax rebates. I don't mind one bit sitting on my covered patio, drinking coffee, a beer, doing a crossword, whatever, and watching it. In fact, I rather enjoy it at times.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: The world is still burning - 08/19/20 06:50 PM
Something that could potentially go a long, long way toward helping alternate energy sources gain more widespread adoption would be the development of devices that readily run on 24v DC or 48v DC and the subsequent start of separate wiring in homes for these voltages.

If TV's, computers, gaming systems, small appliances, etc... had these abilities - and more specifically, if they ran natively on DC but had built-in inverters to allow for AC usage, and if houses began to be wired with alternate outlets for 24/48v DC, then the in-home battery systems would be even more effective and efficient as you could skip past the lossy conversion to AC.

It would be a great thing to get a bunch of industries together to begin a multi-pronged effort to bring this to market.

AC power rules because of its ability to easily and readily transfer great distances, but for in-house use, especially when using stored energy, you can't beat DC.

AC could still be used to supply power to a home and charge batteries when the sun is down or the wind isn't blowing, but the in-home usage could be homogeneous and remove the need to further involve inverters and energy loss.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: The world is still burning - 08/19/20 06:56 PM
Personally, as someone who plans to build his retirement homestead in the coming years, and as someone who plans to leverage plenty of solar and wind in that construction, I would find this invaluable.

Lighting a home with LEDs using DC is a no-brainer if you use in-ceiling lights, and incredibly simple right now. There is little reason at all to run a table lamp on 110v when the bulb in that lamp is likely to be an LED buld these days. Extending the ability to natively power additional things simply isn't possible right now; we need industry to begin supplying alternate versions of products.... and, usually, that would be as simple as using different motors and different power supplies. With modular construction methods, this should be easy and affordable for manufacturers to offer.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: The world is still burning - 08/19/20 06:59 PM
I wish we would just agree to build smaller thorium reactors to bridge the technology. I'd be 100% for that.



I mean do the R&D to make it as safe as possible and go! There is a lot of info on it out there and we could do it fairly fast and affordably. I wouldn't even mind conventional nuclear power as a bridge. Yes it comes, with waste issues but I don't think it will kill the planet.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/19/20 07:10 PM
Originally Posted By: PrplPplEater
Something that could potentially go a long, long way toward helping alternate energy sources gain more widespread adoption would be the development of devices that readily run on 24v DC or 48v DC and the subsequent start of separate wiring in homes for these voltages.

If TV's, computers, gaming systems, small appliances, etc... had these abilities - and more specifically, if they ran natively on DC but had built-in inverters to allow for AC usage, and if houses began to be wired with alternate outlets for 24/48v DC, then the in-home battery systems would be even more effective and efficient as you could skip past the lossy conversion to AC.

It would be a great thing to get a bunch of industries together to begin a multi-pronged effort to bring this to market.

AC power rules because of its ability to easily and readily transfer great distances, but for in-house use, especially when using stored energy, you can't beat DC.

AC could still be used to supply power to a home and charge batteries when the sun is down or the wind isn't blowing, but the in-home usage could be homogeneous and remove the need to further involve inverters and energy loss.


There's a lot of power-saving that could be done, but industry will never let it happen.

I once had a conversation with Stephen Chu (former head of DOE), where he relayed a media story about a "Major Initiative" where the DOE worked with the cable companies to reduce the Standby Power Consumption of DVRs and home cable equipment by ~20%.

And he talked about how frustrated he was by that - because they could have decreased the standby power by more than 90% -- but that would prohibit the DVR from live-updating the channel guide in the background, and companies thought consumers wouldn't like it. The DOE came back with a plan to have the device cycle between "Standby" and "Deep Standby" where the channels update every 15 minutes or so -- and industry wouldn't go for that either because it would require another microchip at a cost of $5 or so a pop.



To get back to your point - I agree that this could be really nice (because AC/DC converters are expensive in individual households). But that is a real cost on devices, and industry will never go for it (which is a bit silly - since computers convert everything back to DC anyway...)
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: The world is still burning - 08/19/20 09:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
(which is a bit silly - since computers convert everything back to DC anyway...)


Which was exactly half the point.
Aside from lighting, the primary energy users in a household these days are electronics.

Even "big" users like ranges can be converted to DC and then make efficient use of induction. Air conditioning units could use VFD motors and be intelligent about required operating speeds, etc...

When I think about my house, other than my air conditioning, washer/electric dryer, and refrigerator, everything is capable of being a 24/48v DC device.

For a future home, it really just doesn't make sense to run the entire house as 110v AC. Run a few dedicated circuits to the mechanicals, laundry room, and kitchen, perhaps, but the rest of the house simply doesn't need it. Even a vacuum cleaner would run perfectly fine on 24v DC power (48v would be better, though).

Amperages would have to be higher... and maybe that's the drawback? It'd be interesting to hear from some electrical engineers on this.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/19/20 09:11 PM
I think this is an interesting idea -- so I'm not trying to criticize here...

I would guess the big drawback is that this is unlikely to be universal? So businesses will either need to sell two versions of the device, or they will need to sell devices that have AC/DC capabilities.

The second drawback I can think of (which, again, isn't to say it is a bad idea), is that the wall voltage is unlikely to be stable enough for many electronics. It should be fine for charging phones, batteries, etc -- but the margins on the voltage requirements of semi-conductors are pretty tight -- so even to just do a DC/DC conversion to power a computer will require a fairly advanced power-supply to make sure that the 12V/5V voltage lines are very stable.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/19/20 09:15 PM
On the other hand -- maybe if we start to advance battery technologies (and manage to produce cheap energy storage inside the house) -- then this would be a big enough impetus to power houses on DC.

A revolution in battery technology would be a huge deal for renewable power.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: The world is still burning - 08/19/20 09:20 PM
Actually, existing power supply technology makes it simpler, I'd think.

Most AC power is so dirty and uneven it is kinda ridiculous. Quality power supplies and their use of induction coils and many layers of capacitors to even out incoming power is the entire reason a high end computer can function on a crappy rural grid. So, taking that same circuitry, but being able to eliminate the rectifiers at the input side actually makes it an easier build, I'd think.

Many products are already DC only... their power cords are those little AC adapters and it is just a round DC plug that goes into the device. I see no reason that a computer, TV, etc power supply couldn't have the second connector and have it auto-switch between 12/24/48v input. The circuit would actually be quite simple... you're just stepping down anything above 12v, and you're doing it in even multiples, so a basic voltage divider is all ya need. 12v is what the computer is going to use anyway, so designing your inputs to take any of the three seems easy. Then, you just need one of the main industry associations (homebuilders) to help get folks like GE, Leviton, Seimens, etc.. to not only decide on which voltage to standardize on, but then maybe offer hybrid panels for load distribution.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: The world is still burning - 08/19/20 09:21 PM
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
On the other hand -- maybe if we start to advance battery technologies (and manage to produce cheap energy storage inside the house) -- then this would be a big enough impetus to power houses on DC.

A revolution in battery technology would be a huge deal for renewable power.


That's what got me thinking this way. Tesla already has their home battery, and if you run a solar or wind system in your home, it stores all power in 24v or 48v battery systems. It seems silly to lose energy coming back out just to convert it to AC only for your devices to then rectify that power and use it as DC, anyway.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The world is still burning - 08/19/20 11:25 PM
This is probably a kiss of death, but I think you are one of the most level-headed, reasonable posters on this board. You don't come across as biased like other posters do. You appear to be an independent and fair thinker. I respect that.

Of course, since I said that.........you will probably soon make a post about either burning down all our cities or shooting all protestors. LOL
Posted By: BuckDawg1946 Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 01:59 AM
I think the unaccountable forcing factor, is the methane being released from the permafrost in high latitudes. Methane has 200x the impact on the greenhouse effect, compared to CO2.

It’s a positive feedback on the climate, just like albedo and losing the ice sheets. The climate is accelerating faster than many species can adapt to.

We are on the precipice of mass biodiversity loss.
Posted By: PerfectSpiral Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 11:19 AM
Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
I have a wind turbine about 400 yards from my house. No, it's not mine. I don't recall its capacity, but it's been there for 10+ years. It still hasn't paid for itself, let alone saved anyone any money, with the breakdowns, the tri annual "routine maintenance" etc.

But it's cool. About half of it was paid for with tax rebates. I don't mind one bit sitting on my covered patio, drinking coffee, a beer, doing a crossword, whatever, and watching it. In fact, I rather enjoy it at times.


rofl 10+ years ago? That thing is ancient in the terms of wind generated turbine design technology.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 05:46 PM
Earth Has Lost 28 Trillion Tons of Ice over the Last 30 Years

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/...-global-warming
Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 07:15 PM
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell


As for that 70 year offset, you really didn't expect immediate results from a minimum, did you?


Well - I certainly didn't expect the effect to come before the cause...

Marauder Minimum is 1645-1715.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maunder_Minimum

Little Ice Age is Traditionally Dated 1550-1850
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age

You literally have no idea what you are talking about.


Actually, I just got lazy and didn't look it up. Now to continue.

Please check Michael Manns hockey stick graph again. It conveniently leaves out the Romans warm period, the dark ages cool period, the medieval warm period (which was warmer than now) and the little ice age.

I'm fairly sure the Romans and middle ages europeans didn't have access to factories that emitted carbon. What caused the warming? That brings us right back to solar output. Any warming and cooling is natural.
Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 07:19 PM
Originally Posted By: cle23
Originally Posted By: Lyuokea



The carbon dioxide levels over the last few decades are very different from anything we've ever seen. We are currently just North of 410 ppm. We can use Ice Core measurements from Antarctica to go back 800,000 years, and we've never seen a value above 300 ppm:

https://climate.nasa.gov/system/content_pages/main_images/203_co2-graph-061219.jpg


And we can ask the question, can humans have produced 200 ppm of Carbon dioxide over the last 100 years?

Let's just look at the raw amount of power that has been produced by burning fuels. To date, that is about 136,000 TWh:

blob:https://ourworldindata.org/e32c9a4e-20d4-479d-b119-46346951f3bf

The amount of C02 for each fuel is slightly different, but you get very close to the right answer by using the value for coal:

C + O2 = CO2

which releases 33940 KJ/kg of Coal.

Technically, for Gasoline/Oil you want to use C8H18 + 12.5 O2 -> 8 C02 + 9 * H20, but this is not a huge difference.

1 Wh = 3600J, so 136000*10^12 Wh = 5 * 10^20 J, which corresponds to 1.5e13 kg of coal. The answer is actually a bit higher (around 5 * 10^13 kg of coal -- because power plants aren't super efficient at producing power from burning fuel). climate.gov puts it at 3.5e13 kg (https://www.climate.gov/news-features/cl...uman-activities)

C weights 12 AU (by definition), and C02 weighs ~44 AU, so 1.5e16 kg of coal is around 44/12 * 5e13 kg = 1.5 * 10^14 kg of C02 that humans have released into the atmosphere.

Almost there! Now we just need to calculate the change in the C02 concentration in the atmosphere, if we add 1.5*10^14 kg of C02 to it.

The total atmosphere weighs around 5 * 10^18 kg, we are adding 1.5 * 10^14 kg of C02, so you would expect a mass fraction of around 0.03% (if none of the Carbon ever cycled). C02 is ~3x heavier than N2, so you get an answer that is very nicely 100 ppm of C02.

It's not a perfect calculation (and there are a lot of sources and sinks to worry about) including the ability of oceans and permafrost to remove some of the carbon we emit.

However, you can see that the rise in C02 very closely echos what is coming out of our factories and cars.


Originally Posted By: ErikInHell


Here's some sites for you.

http://www.biocab.org/Carbon_Dioxide_Geological_Timescale.html
Co2 and temp over geologic time. It shows temp and co2 do not follow each other.

https://notrickszone.com/2010/10/04/4593/
Sunspot and temp comparison. This shows the sun controls our weather more than anything.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/sunspot
More on sunspots


This is my favorite arguement ever. "Here is tons of scientific data and the math behind it, broken down in great detai."

"But here is a bunch of random websites that say otherwise."


It would be more accurate to say, "websites with an opposing view", as that is what they are. Maybe I should just use those sites that already have the "approved" group think of the agm liberal that wants us all to abandon fossil fuels?
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 07:20 PM
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell

Please check Michael Manns hockey stick graph again. It conveniently leaves out the Romans warm period, the dark ages cool period, the medieval warm period (which was warmer than now) and the little ice age.


Here is the graph, which took all of 30 seconds to find (NASA.gov, adapted from Mann 2008 -- which is not the only Mann et al. paper).



It starts in 500 AD, which is probably why it doesn't include the Romans.

It does not leave out the dark ages (which do not look particularly warm or cool).

The Medieval warm period (maybe 950AD?) is not warmer than the temperature today.

It does not leave out the Little Ice Age (which is pretty clear around 1500 AD, though of course, the feature is very small compared to the current warming trend).

Three strikes and you're out?
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 07:46 PM
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell

Actually, I just got lazy and didn't look it up.


That seems to be a theme here...
Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 08:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell

Please check Michael Manns hockey stick graph again. It conveniently leaves out the Romans warm period, the dark ages cool period, the medieval warm period (which was warmer than now) and the little ice age.


Here is the graph, which took all of 30 seconds to find (NASA.gov, adapted from Mann 2008 -- which is not the only Mann et al. paper).



It starts in 500 AD, which is probably why it doesn't include the Romans.

It does not leave out the dark ages (which do not look particularly warm or cool).

The Medieval warm period (maybe 950AD?) is not warmer than the temperature today.

It does not leave out the Little Ice Age (which is pretty clear around 1500 AD, though of course, the feature is very small compared to the current warming trend).

Three strikes and you're out?


Adapted from Mann in 2005? His original came out in 1998. Try this one, nonbeliever.

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2020/06/14/tree-rings-michael-manns-hockey-stick/
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 08:17 PM
Why would I not use the most recent version of the Mann analysis? Especially as you mentioned cooling in the dark ages, which only appear in the 2008 paper?

Either way - you are still wrong. Here is the 1998 paper:

http://www.geo.umass.edu/faculty/bradley/mann1998.pdf

It starts in 1400, so by definition, doesn't include many of the effects you are talking about. The Little Ice Age definitely exists in the plot -- it is the dip on the left hand side -- though maybe harder to discern since there isn't a lot support from data pre-1400?



Mann 1999 was the paper used in the IPCC report, which goes back to 1000.

http://www.meteo.psu.edu/holocene/public_html/shared/articles/MBH1999.pdf

(See Figure 3a). Here, the Little Ice Age is very easy to see - the warming trend over the last 100 years looks nothing like the very small variations before it.


But I'm sure the people at "notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com" are better informed.
Posted By: RocketOptimist Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 08:58 PM
You have more stamina than I do.

Kudos to you for trying.
Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 08:59 PM
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
Why would I not use the most recent version of the Mann analysis? Especially as you mentioned cooling in the dark ages, which only appear in the 2008 paper?

Either way - you are still wrong. Here is the 1998 paper:

http://www.geo.umass.edu/faculty/bradley/mann1998.pdf

It starts in 1400, so by definition, doesn't include many of the effects you are talking about. The Little Ice Age definitely exists in the plot -- it is the dip on the left hand side -- though maybe harder to discern since there isn't a lot support from data pre-1400?



Mann 1999 was the paper used in the IPCC report, which goes back to 1000.

http://www.meteo.psu.edu/holocene/public_html/shared/articles/MBH1999.pdf

(See Figure 3a). Here, the Little Ice Age is very easy to see - the warming trend over the last 100 years looks nothing like the very small variations before it.


But I'm sure the people at "notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com" are better informed.


And that is why I get bored and lazy with these arguments. The name of the site I picked is not up to your made up qualifications, because it's not sponsored by nasa, the ipcc, cnn, etc. You have gotten all your ideas from a single source. You will always believe what the mainstream tells you even when they're wrong.

Here's another one for you.

https://cei.org/blog/wrong-again-50-years-failed-eco-pocalyptic-predictions
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 09:03 PM
Quote:
because it's not sponsored by nasa, the ipcc, cnn, etc. You have gotten all your ideas from a single source


You just named 3 sources?

Also - yes, I trust NASA and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change more than I trust a wordpress website run by a retired accountant -- and in general more than I'd trust any individual, regardless of their qualifications.
Posted By: RocketOptimist Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 09:26 PM
Fox News is mainstream media and they claim manmade climate change isn't real or has consequences on the planet.

Take a consistent position, Erik.
Posted By: RocketOptimist Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 09:27 PM
CEI is an extreme viewpoint with questionable content.
Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 09:31 PM
Originally Posted By: RocketOptimist


Someone else that won't read a site because his masters have told him not too. It only lists failed predictions of climate alarmists for the past 50 years.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 09:36 PM
Originally Posted By: RocketOptimist
Fox News is mainstream media and they claim manmade climate change isn't real or has consequences on the planet.

Take a consistent position, Erik.


I feel like Fox News is pretty 50/50 on this? Their news division mostly posts "Climate change is real" articles -- but they publish a lot of opinion articles from skeptics...
Posted By: RocketOptimist Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 09:38 PM
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 09:38 PM
I just want to know who these masters are?
Posted By: RocketOptimist Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 09:45 PM
MASTER MASTER
Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 11:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
I just want to know who these masters are?


I'd say the liberal left. I see most of you buying into everything they say.

I just posted a list of complete failures in climate predictions for the past 50 years. Instead of reading it, I get told the website is too extreme. That implies willful ignorance, as I see it. I read the theories from both sides before I made my mind up. I researched them both. I'd like to see more people do the same.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The world is still burning - 08/23/20 11:54 PM
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
I just want to know who these masters are?


I'd say the liberal left. I see most of you buying into everything they say.

I just posted a list of complete failures in climate predictions for the past 50 years. Instead of reading it, I get told the website is too extreme. That implies willful ignorance, as I see it. I read the theories from both sides before I made my mind up. I researched them both. I'd like to see more people do the same.


Maybe if you took the time to respond to the detailed, specific and lengthy posts from Lyuokdea .... you'd have some room to make that criticism. As it is, in the middle of the previous back and forth, a whole slew of information was shared and we got crickets. Now your back with a new tact / topic and we have to dance to your tune while you avoid responding to the former? And you throw insults in there for good measure? No thanks.
Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 12:40 AM
Originally Posted By: mgh888
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
I just want to know who these masters are?


I'd say the liberal left. I see most of you buying into everything they say.

I just posted a list of complete failures in climate predictions for the past 50 years. Instead of reading it, I get told the website is too extreme. That implies willful ignorance, as I see it. I read the theories from both sides before I made my mind up. I researched them both. I'd like to see more people do the same.


Maybe if you took the time to respond to the detailed, specific and lengthy posts from Lyuokdea .... you'd have some room to make that criticism. As it is, in the middle of the previous back and forth, a whole slew of information was shared and we got crickets. Now your back with a new tact / topic and we have to dance to your tune while you avoid responding to the former? And you throw insults in there for good measure? No thanks.


Oh please. He showed me stats, I showed him opposing stats. I get told my websites aren't official enough. There's tons of climate data that shows co2 does not force increase in temps. It's not on the "official" sites because they are pushing an agenda. I live 3 blocks from the beach in a house build in the 80s. The water should be lapping at my living room windows 10 years ago according to the experts. The ice caps are not gone, we still have polar bears and their population is growing, some glaciers grow while some recede, there are no global famines, etc, etc. The climate changes. It will be hot, it will be cold. We're not making the weather worse. This is nature, and it's always been this way.
Posted By: archbolddawg Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 12:52 AM
It's weird. The earth has warmed and cooled since forever - according to science. Even before the industrial revolution................even back when..........well, it doesn't matter.
Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 01:28 AM
Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
It's weird. The earth has warmed and cooled since forever - according to science. Even before the industrial revolution................even back when..........well, it doesn't matter.





Unfortunately, I will most likely not live until the next glacial age. It would be nice to see I'm right.
Posted By: PerfectSpiral Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 10:22 AM
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Originally Posted By: RocketOptimist


Someone else that won't read a site because his masters have told him not too. It only lists failed predictions of climate alarmists for the past 50 years.


Says the guy who just claimed to be too lazy to look some things up. rofl at trump supporters.all day long
Posted By: PerfectSpiral Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 04:09 PM
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
It's weird. The earth has warmed and cooled since forever - according to science. Even before the industrial revolution................even back when..........well, it doesn't matter.





Unfortunately, I will most likely not live until the next glacial age. It would be nice to see I'm right.


Right. And hell won’t freeze over either.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 05:16 PM
Well they're your masters. He follows his masters and acts like it isn't the same thing.

Only his masters have pretty weak credentials.
Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 07:00 PM
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Well they're your masters. He follows his masters and acts like it isn't the same thing.

Only his masters have pretty weak credentials.


You are always wrong about me. When the global warming crap started, I did my research then, and made my mind up. That was pre-internet. I've known it was garbage for over 30 years.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 07:17 PM
And I have known it's factual for just as long by using the same methods you came to in making your determination. It's odd how you think you're the only one smart enough to do your own research. I just used sources that were more qualified to reach those determinations and with the credentials to take them seriously.
Posted By: Swish Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 09:12 PM
Bro do you hear yourself?

You’re set in your opinion for the last 30 years and refuse to adapt regardless of new information.

That’s freaking sad. I can’t even laugh at that because I can’t imagine somebody with that sort of mentality raising kids.

Holy crap.
Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 09:19 PM
Originally Posted By: Swish
Bro do you hear yourself?

You’re set in your opinion for the last 30 years and refuse to adapt regardless of new information.

That’s freaking sad. I can’t even laugh at that because I can’t imagine somebody with that sort of mentality raising kids.

Holy crap.


New information? You mean that which you ignore? We're still above water where I live. There's still glaciers growing. There's still ice in the Arctic and antarctic. We still see snow every year. Every damn prediction of the global alarmist has failed, yet still you blindly believe. Btw, I taught my kids better when their "science teachers" were trying to fill their heads with this garbage, and I made them research it as well. They're smart enough to find truth for themselves now.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 09:23 PM
Nice visualization that just appeared in my newsfeed

Posted By: Swish Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 09:27 PM
But that’s fake according to Erik.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 09:31 PM
That's why i didn't respond to him...
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 09:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
Nice visualization that just appeared in my newsfeed



Rate of change. Nutshell.

But hey - it's still snowing so apparently all's well! rofl
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 09:36 PM
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Btw, I taught my kids better when their "science teachers" were trying to fill their heads with this garbage, and I made them research it as well. They're smart enough to find truth for themselves now.


So there will be another generation that thinks like you? smh
Posted By: Swish Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 09:37 PM
Bro that graph...honestly it made me feel this deep sensation in my soul...a bad one.

There’s video of the ice sheets melting and spreading out into the ocean, and with rising sea levels, there’s gonna be coastal cities that aren’t gonna make it.

Every year there seems to be worse flooding in the southern states than the last.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 09:43 PM
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell

Btw, I taught my kids better when their "science teachers" were trying to fill their heads with this garbage, and I made them research it as well. They're smart enough to find truth for themselves now.


Sure .... because it's not like their research isn't going to include the internet .... and it's not like you can always find something to defend your position no matter how completely messed up your theory is, whether is sex ring cabals or otherwise.

https://fashionmagazine.com/culture/elvis-death-theories/
Posted By: RocketOptimist Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 10:21 PM
If we think this pandemic is bad, just wait another 3-4 decades when we're dealing with climate change.

Buy homes in the PNW or Alaska. Cleveland will be Florida minus the moisture come 2050.
Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 10:25 PM
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
Nice visualization that just appeared in my newsfeed



Please present where the stats came from for this graph. I suggest you don't use the political scientist that reposted it, or the comedian that posted it on twitter.
Posted By: archbolddawg Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 10:33 PM
What's the difference, in Celsius, from .280 to .270? The deviation.

Temperature wise, that is.
Posted By: ErikInHell Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 10:42 PM
Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
What's the difference, in Celsius, from .280 to .270? The deviation.

Temperature wise, that is.


One one hundredth of one degree Celsius.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 11:21 PM
Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Originally Posted By: Lyuokdea
Nice visualization that just appeared in my newsfeed



Please present where the stats came from for this graph. I suggest you don't use the political scientist that reposted it, or the comedian that posted it on twitter.


This dataset is from the Pages2K Consortium. The original paper (see Figure 1) is here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6675609/

The raw dataset used to make the figure can be downloaded from here:

https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo-search/study/21171

Unfortunately, I know you don't care about any of that, and were just attempting to be snarky.
Posted By: archbolddawg Re: The world is still burning - 08/24/20 11:39 PM
IF the deviation is 1/100th of 1 degree in Celsius , spell out exactly what that is in F. Over 2020 years.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/25/20 02:55 AM
Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
IF the deviation is 1/100th of 1 degree in Celsius , spell out exactly what that is in F. Over 2020 years.


I'm not 100% sure where you are getting 1/100th of a degree celsius from? (This isn't an attempt to be snarky - I'm just confused...) - So correct me if I'm not responding to the right thing?

In this plot they use the average temperature from 1961 - 1990 as the "zero-point" for the global temperature (note: the choice of 0 doesn't really matter at all -- we only care about whether the temperature is changing up or down, and the plot would look the exact same regardless of what you choose "0 temperature anomaly" to be).

Then from the plot, the change in temperature isn't 1/100th of a degree celsius. The final datapoint is at around +0.6 degrees C, which is +1.08 degrees Fahrenheit. Which means it was about 1.08 degrees Fahrenheit warmer in 2000 (when the study simulation ended), than the average temperature from 1961-1990.

Note that they stop in 2020 (which is because near the beginning of their simulation they have less time-resolution in their data, and the goal of this simulation is to compare the temperature now to the historic temperature from 0-2000 AD, so you want to make sure the time resolution of the study stays fairly consistent to prevent edge effects).

Here is a figure of the same data - but at a higher time resolution -- and going to 2019 (since it goes back only to 1880 AD, instead of 0).

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/146154/2019-was-the-second-warmest-year-on-record

Now the temperature anomaly is about 1.8 degrees Fahrenheit (this website uses 1951-1990 as the 0 point instead of 1961-1990, though that makes a relatively small difference).
Posted By: FloridaFan Re: The world is still burning - 08/25/20 11:34 AM

Why don't we just debate and discuss making the water, air and planet better, cleaner and a more beautiful place to live, now and in the future. Do we really need to argue over why it's changing. That just draws lines in the sand and stifles change.

If we do things to clean up the planet, then any "man made" issues would resolve themselves, and any "natural cycle" stuff will just do what it does, but in the end we have a better,cleaner planet to live on.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/25/20 11:38 AM
Originally Posted By: FloridaFan

Why don't we just debate and discuss making the water, air and planet better, cleaner and a more beautiful place to live, now and in the future. Do we really need to argue over why it's changing. That just draws lines in the sand and stifles change.

If we do things to clean up the planet, then any "man made" issues would resolve themselves, and any "natural cycle" stuff will just do what it does, but in the end we have a better,cleaner planet to live on.


I sort of agree - and I think many people would be shocked by the difference in air quality if we could snap our fingers and have everybody re-experience 1780 for awhile (as long as you aren't in a city filled with poop).

That being said -- greenhouse gasses are the real issue -- and that isn't a 100% overlap with air quality. It lets things like "clean coal" become a climate solution.

Don't get me wrong -- clean coal is better for your lungs than standard coal (the PM2.5 emission is much lower) - but it emits the exact same amount of CO2.

What we need are real zero-emission sources (wind, solar, hydroelectric, nuclear).
Posted By: archbolddawg Re: The world is still burning - 08/25/20 12:46 PM
Thank you for the explanation.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 08/25/20 01:08 PM
Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
Thank you for the explanation.


No problem! I think this work is important (and interesting) -- otherwise I wouldn't be talking about it.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The world is still burning - 09/22/20 12:57 AM
j/c:

Quote:
California Burnin’ — a Warning Against One-Party Rule
Niall Ferguson
BloombergSun, September 20, 2020, 8:00 AM EDT
NYT
New York Times


(Bloomberg Opinion) -- “California, folks, is America fast forward.” Thus Governor Gavin Newsom, hoarsely, amid brown smoke at the North Complex Fire on Sept. 11. “What we’re experiencing right here is coming to a community all across the United States of America … unless we get our act together on climate change.”

I was with him all the way until he said the words “on climate change.”

As my Hoover Institution colleague Victor Davis Hanson put it last month, California is “the progressive model of the future: a once-innovative, rich state that is now a civilization in near ruins. The nation should watch us this election year and learn of its possible future.”

Let’s start with the fires. So far this year, they have torched more than five times as much land as the average of the previous 33 years, killing 25 people and forcing about 100,000 people from their homes. At one point, three of the largest fires in the state’s history were burning simultaneously in a ring around the San Francisco Bay Area. According to the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection, or CAL FIRE, of the 10 largest fires since 1970, five broke out this year. Nine out of 10 have occurred since 2012.

No doubt high temperatures and unusual thunderstorms bear some of the responsibility for this year’s terrifying wildfires on the West Coast. It is deeply misleading to claim, as some diehard deniers still do, that temperatures aren’t rising and making wildfires more likely. But it is equally misleading to claim, as the New York Times did last week, that “scientists say” climate change “is the primary cause of the conflagration.”

In reality, as Stanford’s Rebecca Miller, Christopher Field and Katharine J. Mach argue in a recent article in Nature Sustainability, this crisis has at least as much to do with disastrous land mismanagement as with climate change, and perhaps more. Anyone who thinks solar panels, Teslas and a $3.3 billion white elephant of a high-speed rail line will avoid comparable or worse fires next year (and the year after and the year after) doesn’t understand what the scientists are really saying.

Most measures proposed by environmentalists to reduce carbon dioxide and other “greenhouse gas” emissions will pay off over 50 to 100 years, as the International Panel on Climate Change has long made clear. Even a best-case scenario of “stringent mitigation” (what the IPCC calls Representative Concentration Pathway 2.6) would not bring carbon dioxide emissions down to 1950 levels until around 2050. Nor would it lower global average temperatures; it would merely stop them rising.

And that’s only if the whole world — including China and India — takes action. California’s wildfire problem cannot be solved by the state’s citizens “getting their act together on climate change,” in Newsom’s words. The problem needs immediately effective action — and that means a return to sane forest management, if such a return is still possible. For decades, Democratic leaders in California have presided over a policy of leaving dead trees to rot, instead of the old and rational system of prescribed or controlled burns, not least because environmental and clear air regulations, as well as problems of legal liability, made controlled burns harder and harder to do.

In prehistoric California, according to a recent analysis in ProPublica, between 4.4 million and 11.8 million acres burned each year. California’s land managers burned about 30,000 acres a year on average between 1982 and 1998. Over the next 18 years, that number dropped to an annual 13,000 acres. The result has been a huge accumulation of highly flammable kindling.

Miller, Field and Mach concluded that a total area of around 20 million acres — roughly one-fifth of the state’s territory — was in urgent need of “fuel treatment,” meaning prescribed burns, mechanical thinning and managed wildfire. It is hard to imagine anything remotely close to that happening under the current political dispensation. (The authors politely called for “fundamental shifts in prescribed-burn policies, beyond those currently under consideration.”) Or rather, it is going to happen, but at a time of Nature’s choosing, with catastrophic consequences.

A case in point: For a year and a half, red tape slowed down a forest-thinning project in Berry Creek, Butte County. The project covered just 54 acres but, thanks to the burdensome provisions of the California Environmental Quality Act, work had yet to start when the North Complex wildfire struck, devastating the town and killing 10 people.

I have some skin in this game. Four years ago, I moved from Harvard University to Stanford University. My family traded a solid, century-old professorial residence in Cambridge for a wooden house in a wooded area that to our wooden heads seemed most idyllic. A few weeks ago, our neighborhood was on the edge of the evacuation zone.

However, I have less skin in the game than Victor Davis Hanson. He lives on the fruit and nut farm near Selma, in the Central Valley, that his family has owned since the 1870s. The air quality index in Stanford rose above 170 on three days in the last month. In Selma last week it was 460. (Anything above 301 qualifies as “emergency conditions.”)

I write these words over 1,000 miles from our California home, but it’s no good: in recent days the smoke has found us, too. Hotel parking lots full of vehicles with CA license plates confirm that we are not the only eastward migrants. It’s like Steinbeck’s “Grapes of Wrath” in reverse: Now that the Golden State is the Char-Grilled State, Californians have become the new Okies, though a good deal less impecunious.

Yet wildfires are only one of the reasons people are fleeing California. In addition, the wrongheaded environmental policies of the sages of Sacramento have so undermined the power grid (for example, by shutting down gas-fired power plants and refusing to count hydroelectric energy as renewable) that residents have been subjected to rolling blackouts this year. The same policies have largely killed off the oil and gas industry. Newsom & Co. have failed to upgrade the water system to keep pace with the last half-century of population growth.

It’s not that California politicians don’t know how to spend money. Back in 2007, total state spending was $146 billion. Last year it was $215 billion. I know, I know: In real terms California’s GDP increased by nearly a third in the same period. And I know: If it were an independent nation it would be the fifth-largest economy in the world, ahead of India’s. But for how much longer will that be true?

California’s taxes aren’t the highest in the country — for the median household. But the tax system is one of the most progressive, with a 13.3% top tax rate on incomes above $1 million — and that’s no longer deductible from the federal tax bill as it used to be. The top 1% of taxpayers (those earning more than $500,000) now account for half of personal income-tax revenue. And there’s worse to come.

The latest brilliant ideas in Sacramento are to raise the top income rate up to 16.8% and to levy a wealth tax (0.4% on personal fortunes over $30 million) that you couldn’t even avoid paying if you left the state. (The proposal envisages payment for up to 10 years after departure to a lower-tax state.) It is a strange place that seeks to repel the rich while making itself a magnet for illegal immigrants by establishing no fewer than 20 “sanctuary” cities or counties.

And the results of all this progressive policy? A poverty boom. California now has 12% of the nation's population, but over 30% of its welfare recipients. By the official measure, based mainly on income and family size, California’s 11.4% poverty rate in 2019 was close to the national average over the past three years. However, according to a new Census Bureau report, which takes housing and other costs into account, the real poverty rate in California is 17.2%, the highest of any state. (Newsom gets one thing right when he says, “We're living in the wealthiest as well as the poorest state in America.”)

About a third of California’s poverty can be attributed to housing and other living costs such as clothing and utilities. As everyone who resides there knows, there’s a chronic housing shortage in the Bay Area (the median-priced home in San Francisco costs about $1.5 million), mainly because a plethora of regulations make the construction of affordable housing well-nigh impossible. In blithe disregard of all we know about rent controls — which discourage landlords from providing housing — that is, predictably, the solution the Democrats propose.

But that’s not all. The state’s public schools rank 37th in the country overall and have the highest pupil-teacher ratio. “Only half of California students meet English standards and fewer meet math standards, test scores show,” was a headline in the Los Angeles Times last October. Health care and pension costs are unsustainable. Oh, and they messed up on Covid-19, despite imposing the nation’s first shelter-in-place orders. Having prematurely claimed victory, California now leads New York in terms of cases, though not deaths.

Back in the 1960s, California was the world’s fantasy destination. “California Dreamin’,” “California Girls,” “Going to California” — you know the songs. But reputations have a way of outliving reality. Despite the economic miracle wrought in Silicon Valley, beginning with the genesis of the internet back in the 1970s, and despite the continuing strength of the state’s universities, the dream in terms of quality of life has slowly died.

When I first visited San Francisco in 1981, it was still one of the loveliest cities I had ever beheld. Now its streets are so filthy — human feces and syringe needles are the principal hazards — that I avoid it. (I was going to say “like the plague,” but that’s Lake Tahoe.)

Yet the Bay Area and its southern sister Los Angeles are only one of the two Californias. As Hanson argued 10 years ago, the Central Valley is another country, more “Caribbean” or Latin American, where “countless inland communities … have become near-apartheid societies, where Spanish is the first language, the schools are not at all diverse, and the federal and state governments are either the main employers or at least the chief sources of income.”

The principal reason for California’s decline is that the Golden State became a one-party state. The Republican candidate won California in every election but one (1964) between 1952 and 1988. But the Democrat has won California in every election since, with the Democratic vote share rising from 46% in 1992 to 62% in 2016.

Democrats now have 61 out of 80 seats in the California State Assembly. The last time Republicans had a majority (of one) was in 1994, but that was an anomaly. The Democrats have essentially controlled the State Senate since 1958, with rising majorities since the 1990s. Apart from 1994, the only other year since 1958 when they did not win a majority of seats in the Assembly was 1968.

When regular voting has no effect, people eventually vote with their feet. From 2007 until 2016, about five million people moved to California but six million moved out to other states. For years before that, the newcomers were poorer than the leavers. This net exodus is surging in 2020. And businesses (for example, Charles Schwab Corp.) are leaving too. Silicon Valley is going virtual, with many big tech companies thinking of making work from home permanent for at least some employees. (One tech chief executive told me last week that his engineers were pleading not to return to the office.)

People are getting out of the Bay Area as much and perhaps more than they are getting out of New York City. Texas is only one of the favored alternatives. Realtors in Montana are reporting record demand from West Coast refugees. The hotels are full, which is unheard of at this time of year. I also know a number of eminent Californians who are now Hawaiians.

The conservative writer and broadcaster Ben Shapiro, born in L.A., just announced that he is heading to Nashville, Tennessee. “I love the state, grew up in the state, married in the state and have had children in the state,” he told Laura Ingraham. But California was “not a great place to raise children and not a great place to build a company.” Now we know the true meaning of Calexit. It’s not secession. It’s exodus.

I cannot blame the leavers. When I moved West in 2016, it was in the naive belief that California was Massachusetts without snow and Stanford was Harvard with September weather all year round. How wrong I was.

But am I leaving? Well, maybe there’s no point. As Newsom’s predecessor Jerry Brown put it last week: “There are going to be problems everywhere in the United States. This is the new normal. It’s been predicted and it’s happening … Tell me: Where are you going to go? What’s your alternative?”

Great question, but — as with Newsom’s prophecy — wrongly framed. The big problem is not that climate change is coming to every state. It is, though most states will mitigate it better than California. The problem is that Democratic governance could be coming to the nation as a whole, starting on Jan. 20. And with the Democratic nominee, Joe Biden, turning 78 two weeks after election day, it is not a little troubling to me that his vice-presidential pick is a Californian, just as so many of his plans to spend, tax and regulate have “designed in California” all over them.

Yes, folks, California is America fast forward. Can someone please hit pause?

This column does not necessarily reflect the opinion of the editorial board or Bloomberg LP and its owners.

Niall Ferguson is the Milbank Family Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University and a Bloomberg Opinion columnist. He was previously a professor of history at Harvard, New York University and Oxford. He is the founder and managing director of Greenmantle LLC, a New York-based advisory firm.

For more articles like this, please visit us at bloomberg.com/opinion

https://www.yahoo.com/news/california-burnin-warning-against-one-120009131.html


Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The world is still burning - 09/22/20 03:22 PM
j/c

Who manages the forests?

Firstly, most forest in California, Oregon and Washington isn't the responsibility of the state authorities - in fact, their share of forest land is small.

In California state, the federal government owns nearly 58% of the 33 million acres of forest, according to the state governor's office. The state itself owns just three per cent, with the rest owned by private individuals or companies or Native American groups.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46183690
Posted By: BuckDawg1946 Re: The world is still burning - 10/24/20 04:03 AM
To put this in perspective, only 6 other fires in recorded Colorado history, have even reached 100k acres. I’ve experienced no less than 4 days this year that would fall under the category of apocalypse, nuclear winter, rapture, etc.

https://www.npr.org/2020/10/22/926838887...ntain-national-

Already battling the largest fire in state history, Colorado is now dealing with another blaze that grew by more than 100,000 acres in a day.

The flames traveled east, fueled by beetle-eaten pine trees and dry winds. Hundreds evacuated. The fire jumped the Continental Divide. Conditions forced the closing of Rocky Mountain National Park.

The fire, called East Troublesome after a nearby creek, has spread to more than 125,000 acres. Smoke plumes stretched 40,000 feet in the air. The nearby town of Grand Lake was forced to evacuate.

East Troublesome is now the fourth-largest wildfire in Colorado records. It started on Oct. 14, but overnight Wednesday it quadrupled in size.

"The growth that you see on this fire is unheard of," Grand County Sheriff Brett Schroetlin said during a Thursday press conference. "We plan for the worst. This is the worst of the worst of the worst. And no matter how we look at it, we can't control Mother Nature."

The cause is under investigation.

Three of the five largest fires in Colorado history are from 2020. The state has battled its largest fire in history for more than two months just west of Fort Collins. The fire, named Cameron Peak, continues to burn and has spread to about 207,000 acres. It is 55% contained.,,,
Posted By: PortlandDawg Re: The world is still burning - 10/24/20 01:10 PM
I feel you man. I dealt with some apocalyptic skies this fall too. Orange skies, unbreathable smoke filled air. Be safe.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The world is still burning - 10/24/20 03:02 PM
Rumor has it that it's a forest management issue.
Posted By: PortlandDawg Re: The world is still burning - 10/24/20 03:21 PM
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Rumor has it that it's a forest management issue.


Federal lands in most cases... hmmmm. BuT tHE GoveRNoRs....
Posted By: bluecollarball Re: The world is still burning - 10/24/20 03:52 PM
I have read that CO2 stays in the atmosphere 300 years or longer. Even if we stopped (all of humanity) in producing CO2 today, we'd still have to deal with global warming and the resulting climate change for hundreds of years it would seem. So, at what concentration does it have to be at, and for how long, before the negative effects of it diminishes altogether I wonder?

I am thinking future generations are screwed no matter what and that is awfully scary. Unless we somehow figure a way to reverse it. Then you get into man-made weather manipulation and then at that point, who gets to decide what temperature the planet is?

I'm starting to brush up on climate change and the science surrounding so pardon my naiveté on the subject. I don't have a commanding knowledge on the matter unlike other folks who say they are widely read on this and any other topic but being widely read does not equal an understanding. One can read the articles but not understand them and, therefore, misinterpret them. That, unfortunately, is what governs most of our conversations on just about every topic imaginable. We take the time to read, less time to understand.
Posted By: Swish Re: The world is still burning - 10/24/20 09:05 PM
jc

you know what really ticks me off about humanity?

some of the best technology we ever developed was only because we needed to find new ways to kill each other in combat.
Posted By: Hamfist Re: The world is still burning - 10/29/20 02:19 AM
I guess my big question to climate deniers is “Why would scientists make this up?” The scientists probably have kids, or grandkids that they care about, and want to see them thrive. There is no reason to fabricate this scenario if it isn’t true.
Posted By: fishtheice Re: The world is still burning - 10/29/20 02:36 AM
Follow the (Climate Change) Money
Dec 18th, 2018

Stephen Moore
@StephenMoore

Copied

The first iron rule of American politics is: Follow the money. This explains, oh, about 80 percent of what goes on in Washington.

Shortly after the latest Chicken Little climate change report was published last month, I noted on CNN that one reason so many hundreds of scientists are persuaded that the sky is falling is that they are paid handsomely to do so.

I noted that “In America and around the globe governments have created a multi-billion dollar Climate Change Industrial Complex.” And then I added: “A lot of people are getting really, really rich off of the climate change industry.” According to a recent report by the U.S. Government Accountability Office, “Federal funding for climate change research, technology, international assistance, and adaptation has increased from $2.4 billion in 1993 to $11.6 billion in 2014, with an additional $26.1 billion for climate change programs and activities provided by the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act in 2009.”

This doesn’t mean that the planet isn’t warming. But the tidal wave of funding does reveal a powerful financial motive for scientists to conclude that the apocalypse is upon us. No one hires a fireman if there are no fires. No one hires a climate scientist (there are thousands of them now) if there is no catastrophic change in the weather. Why doesn’t anyone in the media ever mention this?

But when I lifted this hood, it incited more hate mail than from anything I’ve said on TV or written. Could it be that this rhetorical missile hit way too close to home?

How dare I impugn the integrity of scientists and left-wing think-tanks by suggesting that their research findings are perverted by hundreds of billions of dollars of taxpayer handouts. The irony of this indignation is that any academic whose research dares question the “settled science” of the climate change complex is instantly accused of being a shill for the oil and gas industry or the Koch brothers.

Apparently, if you take money from the private sector to fund research, your work is inherently biased, but if you get multimillion-dollar grants from Uncle Sam, you are as pure as the freshly fallen snow.

How big is the Climate Change Industrial Complex today? Surprisingly, no one seems to be keeping track of all the channels of funding. A few years ago Forbes magazine went through the federal budget and estimated about $150 billion in spending on climate change and green energy subsidies during President Obama’s first term.

That didn’t include the tax subsidies that provide a 30 percent tax credit for wind and solar power — so add to those numbers about $8 billion to $10 billion a year. Then add billions more in costs attributable to the 29 states with renewable energy mandates that require utilities to buy expensive “green” energy.

Worldwide the numbers are gargantuan. Five years ago, a leftist group called the Climate Policy Initiative issued a study which found that “Global investment in climate change” reached $359 billion that year. Then to give you a sense of how money-hungry these planet-saviors are, the CPI moaned that this spending “falls far short of what’s needed” a number estimated at $5 trillion.

For $5 trillion we could feed everyone on the planet, end malaria, and provide clean water and reliable electricity to every remote village in Africa. And we would probably have enough money left over to find a cure for cancer and Alzheimers.

The entire Apollo project to put a man on the moon cost less than $200 billion. We are spending twice that much every year on climate change.

This tsunami of government money distorts science in hidden ways that even the scientists who are corrupted often don’t appreciate. If you are a young eager-beaver researcher who decides to devote your life to the study of global warming, you’re probably not going to do your career any good or get famous by publishing research that the crisis isn’t happening.

But if you’ve built bogus models that predict the crisis is getting worse by the day, then step right up and get a multimillion dollar grant.

Now here’s the real scandal of the near trillion dollars that governments have stolen from taxpayers to fund climate change hysteria and research. By the industry’s own admission there has been almost no progress worldwide in actually combatting climate change. The latest reports by the U.S. government and the United Nations say the problem is getting worse not better and we have not delayed the apocalypse by a single day.

Has there ever been such a massive government expenditure that has had such miniscule returns on investment? After three decades of “research” the only “solution” is for the world to stop using fossil fuels, which is like saying that we should stop growing food.

Really? The greatest minds of the world entrusted with hundreds of billions of dollars can only come up with a solution that would entail the largest government power grab in world history, shutting down industrial production (just look at the catastrophe in Germany when they went all in for green energy), and throwing perhaps billions of human beings into poverty? If that’s the remedy, I will take my chances on a warming planet.

President Trump should tell these “scientists” that “you’re fired.” And we taxpayers should demand our money back.

https://www.heritage.org/environment/commentary/follow-the-climate-change-money
Posted By: Hamfist Re: The world is still burning - 10/29/20 02:52 AM
I’m leery of anything put out about science that calls them “leftists”.

This article is very biased.

The scientists reporting this data are probably making the same amount as they were ten years ago, normal raises notwithstanding.

I don’t see the scientists getting rich, just reporting data.
Posted By: Lyuokdea Re: The world is still burning - 10/29/20 10:14 AM
Originally Posted By: Hamfist
I’m leery of anything put out about science that calls them “leftists”.

This article is very biased.

The scientists reporting this data are probably making the same amount as they were ten years ago, normal raises notwithstanding.

I don’t see the scientists getting rich, just reporting data.


Second this - Academia is not a great place to make money. The experts in Climate Change modeling would be very competitive in (e.g., data science) which pays 3x as much off the bat.
Posted By: FloridaFan Re: The world is still burning - 10/29/20 12:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Hamfist
I’m leery of anything put out about science that calls them “leftists”.

This article is very biased.

The scientists reporting this data are probably making the same amount as they were ten years ago, normal raises notwithstanding.

I don’t see the scientists getting rich, just reporting data.


When the article starts out with..
"Shortly after the latest Chicken Little climate change report was published last month.."
I have to read the rest with a grain of salt, as the reporter is obviously bias.

I do the same on this board, if someone repeatedly uses insults and demeaning nicknames in their posts, it takes away from their point IMO.
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