DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum How I Evaluate a QB by Razorthorns

What is the number one thing you want a QB to do?

You would think we could all agree on that but I don't think we do. Some of you might think it's to lead the team. Some might think it's to pass the ball. Some might think it' to adjust the play to the defense by being a game manager. Some might think it's to be mobile and make explosive plays with their feet. They are all valid while being different at the same time.

In my opinion the most important job of the QB is to get the ball where it needs to go and do it in a way that is reliable and effective. The number one way a QB does that is by passing the ball. Seems obvious so far right? I don't think it really is for some and I am not picking on anyone when I say that. So I am going to list what I look for when I watch the videos.

1. Ball Placement. At the point of delivery is the ball easily catchable and only catchable by the receiver. Nothing else is more important than this trait. If you can trust your QB to always put that ball in the one place it should be then you have a franchise QB. I am not talking about throwing it where the WR can get to it and in the general area but I am talking right into the hands of the WR with him able to not miss a step running his route. The how and why he gets it there is not as important as the simple fact that he CAN reliably get it there with consistency.

2. Vision. This influences a great many other factors. If he can't see the defense he can't read it. If he can't read the defense he can see the defenders to know where it's safe to go with the ball. He also won't see which WR are open to throw the ball to if he doesn't see the field well.There are three main types of Visual Readers.
A. Vertical Reader - Their vision reading is much like an ice cream cone. A very narrow field but often what they see in that field is very detailed and very accurate. Think of sniper vision. They are great for a vertical passing game. They tend to have 1 or 2 WR they like to lock onto to throw the ball to with few passes going elsewhere.
B. Horizontal Reader - Their vision reading is very wide and broad but is also very shallow. In short to intermediate routes they see about 75% of the field up to a depth of about 15-20 yards at a time. Hunters often use this type of vision as they stalk through the forest looking for signs of prey. These guys make for great WCO style QB's because they don't need to move their head a lot to see the full field. In many cases this type of vision can be trained up or improved to where you comprehend more of what you see but the depth never really increase due to the physical mechanics of vision. TE and HBs get a lot of passes from these guys.
C. Scanning Reader - These guys are VERY rare. They have both types of vision and can switch between them at will. Then are normally born with the ability but it can also be developed with a LOT of insane hard work. They often use horizontal vision to scan the field presnap then as the post snap dictates they narrow to vertical vision to hit the deep ball or stay with horizontal if they are doing a shorter pass. The thing is that these guys can choose what they do instead of making due with the vision style they are born with. It's not easy to find these guys but one way you can tell is that they spread the ball around all over the field. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are the two most obvious examples of this in our generation. Like I said it's rare air up there.

3. Mental. - This can be broken down to several factors but they all fit under this aspect. Information processing, reading the defense, willpower, and courage are the main parts to me.
A. Information Processing - How quickly can they handle the changes from presnap to postsnap and then quicker make a decision to deal with it. This is so extremely important for a QB. You can have all the skill in the world but if you can't process information you're going to turn into a statue and be useless. This can improve for many QBs as they become veterans but only so much. It's the number one reason you need consistency in your offensive system.
B. Reading the Defense - Do they know enough about defenses to identify the one being used against them? Can they read the tells that come from knowing when certain positions are lined up in X spot that a blitz is coming, etc. IF they study hard they can learn this one. If they can also process information well then as they become veterans they will react fast post snap too. There is no excuse to be bad in this field.
C. Willpower - Does this player have the personality to WILL his team to win no matter what. He never breaks and he never gives up. His WILLPOWER feeds those around him and keeps them focused and hungry to win. Tom Brady would be a nobody without his iron will to win. His team feeds off him like crazy.
D. Courage - He is simply never lets fear effect him whether he is scared or not. He shows this off by making that perfect pass even though he knows he is about to get NAILED! A QB can not function without courage. A great O-line really helps with this one though but trust takes time to build up.

4. Technique. If the player has good technique his throws will be delivered the same more often than not. The most important thing influenced by a QB's technique is ball placement and accuracy. It also affects their confidence and trust in their ability to get the ball where it needs to go. When you see a QB get injured and make a comeback you will see that they need time to trust their throws against because they are not sure if they are throwing in the right way just yet. As they gain confidence in their technique again they start to let it rip and press those tight windows with their throws. The good news is that technique can be trained. Sometimes it takes a bit of time to clean up a rookie's technique though so it's good when you find a prospect with existing good technique because it can take years to fix.

5. Arm Strength. - Ball velocity and distance are the two main things we worry about. Both are very hard to improve. Soft muscle gain can improve both to a certain degree but you won't turn a noodle arm into Brett Favre. The thing is though you can find a guy with a medium arm talent and turn him into a Tom Brady or Drew Brees arm which is more than good enough. Still it's easier if you can find a guy with an arm talent already built up. Also, most coaches have no clue how to improve arm talent so in most cases it's simply better to have a guy that has a nice arm to start with because getting lucky with a Tom Brady or Drew Brees type of improvement is going to be very unlikely.

6. Pocket Awareness. - Does the QB know where to slide in the pocket to buy more time? Does he know when to roll out, run, or just throw the darn ball away? It certainly helps when your QB is aware of the pocket well enough to not run off to early.

7. Mobility. - Can he throw on the run? Can he flat out just run with the ball. It's nice to have but if you build up the O-line and he has the other skills then this is almost never needed. Running QB's don't live long in the NFL if it's their main positive. However if you have a pocket passer who can tear it loose when needed then it really forced the defense to adapt to it. It's a high risk reward scenario. You're better off with a QB who is a pocket passer first and a runner only as needed in an emergency.


So anyways that is what I mainly look for when I look at QB. This entire post is MY OPINION but it's as close to fact on QB for ME as I have ever seen and always seems to hold true from my experiences.Take it or leave it as you will.

I always start off with intensely looking at where the ball finds the WR. Is it right in his hands or does he have to go find the ball and twist and turn to get it. Is the WR hit in stride? Can the QB drop the ball into a bucket and the WR keep going without losing a step? This type of passing ability is what makes or breaks a franchise QB.

Well Ed said my post was too long for the other thread so I have moved it to here. I am very interested to see how some of you evaluate the QB's your thinking about. Feel free to disagree with my post all you like but I do ask that we try and treat each other's opinions with respect so we can enjoy talking about what we love or hate in the QBs we care enough about to talk about =)

If you can please try to use a QB example to illustrate your point. Video footage would be awesome too where applicable =) Yes, I know I am greedy mwa hahaha but I love the QB position =)

Lets have fun!!!

Going off your categories i'd say

1.Mental-cause it can't be taught. You either have it or you don't
2.Vision-it can be learned, rookies can get better at this. Rogers probably sees the field better then he did his 1st, 2nd, or 3rd year.
3.Technique-can be taught but if a guys already got good technique you're that far ahead.
4.Pocket Awareness- I guess this would be next for me
5.Ball placement-the more accurate a guy is helps
6.Arm strength
7.Mobility-Don't really care if a guy is mobile or not.

I'd probably add footwork and put it at 3.
I'd also group ball placement and arm strength together and call it arm talent.

Good stuff though.

I don't know how to search this board but I know I posted my thoughts before...

QUARTERBACK
Ideal size: 6-3, 210
To become a great quarterback, there must be instincts and intuition. This is the area that can be the difference between a very solid quarterback and a great quarterback. This isn't an area you can do much with as a coach. You can certainly bring a quarterback up to a competitive standard, but to reach greatness the quarterback must possess that inherently, ala Billy Kilmer, Sonny Jurgensen, Ken Stabler and Warren Moon.

If throwing a ball were the only aspect of playing quarterback, then this would be an easy position to evaluate. However, because of the dynamic role he plays on the team, a quarterback must have physical, mental, emotional and instinctive traits that go well beyond the mere ability to pass a football.

Still, if he can't pass, he obviously won't be a good quarterback either. For now, let's assume our quarterback candidate has shown an ability to throw the ball.

Now, he must be courageous and intensely competitive. He will be the one on the field who is running the team. His teammates must believe in him or it may not matter how much physical ability he has. If he is courageous and intensely competitive, then other players will know and respect that. This will be a foundation for becoming a leader.
Naturally, he will have to perform up to certain physical standards to maintain that respect and become a leader.

Arm strength is somewhat misleading. Some players can throw 80 yards, but they aren't good passers. Good passing has to do with accuracy, timing, and throwing a ball with touch so it is catchable. This all involves understanding a system, the receivers in the system, and having great anticipation. It is a plus to be able to throw a ball on a line for 35 yards, but not if it is off target or arrives in such a way that it is difficult to catch.
Remember, the goal of passing a ball is to make sure it is caught ... by your intended receiver.

You look at how complete an inventory of throws a quarterback possesses -- from screen passes to timed short passes to medium range passes and down the field throws. This complete range. For the scout, not having a complete inventory does not eliminate the quarterback. But you are looking to evaluate in all facets and distances and types of passes in throwing the ball.

There have been quarterbacks of greatness, Hall of Fame quarterbacks, who didn't have a complete inventory of passes. But you're looking to see the potential of the quarterback in each area. You can see where the emphasis of the offense would be if he were with your team.

A quick delivery , one that is not telegraphed to help the defense, gives the quarterback an advantage when he finds his intended target. That's when it is essential to get the ball "up and gone'' with no wasted motion. Some of this can be acquired by learning proper technique. But to a certain degree, a quick release is related to a quarterback's reaction time between spotting his receiver and getting the ball "up and gone.''

Touch is important, especially in a medium range passing game. One of Joe Montana's most remarkable skills was putting the right touch on a pass so that it was easily catchable by a receiver, who often did not have to break stride.

The ability to read defenses is not something that players have learned to a high degree coming out of college. Even if they have, the pro defenses are very different. But most systems require quarterbacks to look at primary and secondary receivers, usually based on the defense that confronts him. You can see if he locates that secondary receiver -- or maybe even an emergency outlet receiver -- with ease or with a sense of urgency.
This should work like a natural progression, not a situation where it's -- "Oh, my gosh, now I must look over here ... no, over there.'' You can see which quarterbacks handle these situations with grace. These are the types who have a chance to perform with consistency in the NFL.

Mobility and an ability to avoid a pass rush are crucial. Some quarterbacks use this mobility within the pocket just enough so they are able to move and pass when they "feel" a rush. But overall quickness and agility can make a remarkable difference. As an example, there were some very quick boxers in Sugar Ray Leonard's era, but he was quicker than they were and because of that he became a great champ.

Quarterbacks must be able to function while injured. The pro season is about twice as long and more punishing than a college season. They are vulnerable to getting hit hard every time they pass. They must be able to avoid being rattled, get up and show they are in control and can continue to lead the offense.

The single trait that separates great quarterbacks from good quarterbacks is the ability to make the great, spontaneous decision, especially at a crucial time. The clock is running down and your team is five points behind. The play that was called has broken down and 22 players are moving in almost unpredictable directions all over the field.

This is where the great quarterback uses his experience, vision, mobility and what we will call spontaneous genius. He makes something good happen. This, of course, is what we saw in Joe Montana when he pulled out those dramatic victories for Notre Dame.

^^Bill Walsh

Y'all can laugh...this is mine from last year:

Big Connor cook fan eh? Also who is Trev B?

You guys are doing great! I hope more folks chime in =)

So far we all actually agree a lot on things we value I think. We might emphasize things a little different but I am seeing many similar thoughts so far.

Razor that was a very well put together post. I can't write that well. Good post.

I value mobility a little more than most I think. I just think it adds a nice wrinkle. Any pocket passer who doesn't become a stud isn't very valuable but I think you hedge your bets by taking a good athlete. Makes it harder on a defense. Because of that I also really value a good build more as well. Guys like Brissett and dak last year and mahomes this year have that mobility,size arm combo that is rare imo.

I like it when a QB is mobile too if they can have it and still be able to play the pocket.

This is great information. I thought we evaluated QBs based on their luck of winning a coin flip and moxy. Accuracy, vision, aptitude and mobility? Sounds like a plan.

I like it when the backup QB is relatively mobile. Considering they haven't practiced with the first team much during the season, when the starter gets injured, at least he might be able to make plays with his legs when continuity and chemistry is probably lacking.

Of course your other factors are more important, but making plays with his legs when timing and overall unfamiliarity is present, can be a plus.

Trevone Boykin.
I listed the QBs by alpha.

Yeah, lol i liked Cook way more then league/draft did. Pro-style QB etc....but i think the off the field stuff hurt him not being a CPT and father being a crazy person via social media. I'm still shocked over how high Hackenberg got drafted, especially going before Cook.

But u gotta give me credit for Dak, lol

I think you bring up a good point for backups. It's not often you can be lucky enough to have a very good pocket passer much less a second one. Still though if they are too different it might make it really hard for the rest of the offense to adjust.

Just in case it wasn't clear the QBs are in alphabetical order not in ranking.

If its easier to read here was the sum of each QBs grades; although the score in each category for me is more important then the sum.

Trevone=39.5
C.Cook=38.5
Goff=38.5
Hacken=34.5
P.Lynch=38
Prescott=39
Wentz=37.5

This thread is really boring. No offence to anyone.

Yeah you were high on Prescott it seems. I honestly don't even remember Boykin. I had dak, wentz and Goff all about the same but my top tier was Brissett alone. I think I was his only suitor all last off season on here til old bill joined my club in NE haha

How To Scout A Quarterback (Part One): Do The “Parcells Rules” Still Matter?

by Blake Murphy@blakemurphy7 Feb 10, 2017, 10:00am MST



As we enter the NFL offseason, which is the precursor to the NFL Draft season, it’s important to go over looking at the upcoming prospects and evaluating and grading them.


But one of the most important things to help determine the quality of a player vs. where they will be taken in the NFL Draft is to view prospects as the NFL TEAMS would view them.


This is the first part in a three-part series—looking at the 2017 list of QB’s and how NFL team scouts THEMSELVES would view them and process them.


For some background, I was a former scouting intern for an Arena Football team and had the privilege to work under someone who spent time working as an NFL scout for teams like the Dolphins, Giants and Raiders, and got to pick his brain into how he thought and how teams would think.


One of the ways that has been done in the past, is by simply checking boxes of requirements for a Quarterback. If they check all the boxes, they are seen as higher. If they miss on two or three areas, it could indicate potential weaknesses or even drop them altogether. The first area we’ll look into is the so-called “Parcells Rules” for QB scouting, as popularized by Hall of Fame Head Coach Bill Parcells


What Are The Parcells Rules?
Must be a Senior.
Must be graduating or have already received their degree
Started for at least 3 years
At least 23 collegiate wins
The main idea amongst these rules is that you must have reps to progress as a Quarterback, have played at a high level as a starting Quarterback to keep your job and have the commitment necessary to succeed in life, not just in football.


These rules have become pretty widespread in terms of evaluating quarterbacks and while they aren’t ironclad rules, there is a good correlation between them and many of the top Quarterbacks playing now in the NFL. For example, Carson Palmer, Tom Brady Matt Ryan, Russell Wilson, Drew Brees and Dak Prescott were all seniors when they were drafted, and all had their degrees, were 3 year starters and hit that number of wins.


In fact, AZ’s own Carson Palmer hits all four of Parcells’ benchmarks. So are these rules going to be prime indicators of Quarterback success?


Well...yes and no. In some cases, as we see above, a good portion of the top Quarterbacks in the NFL do hit these rules, but players like Andrew Luck only started for two years, and a QB like Jameis Winston and Cam Newton wasn’t a senior, didn’t even graduate at the time, nor had three years as a starting QB.


Last year Connor Cook was the ONLY top-ranked college quarterback who hit each of the “Parcells Rules”. How does this year’s class fare?


Parcells Rules: Top 10 2017 QB’s

Name Senior? 3-Year Starter? Graduate? # of Wins?
Brad Kaaya No Yes Yes 23
Chad Kelly Yes No Yes 14
CJ Beathard Yes Yes Yes 21
Davis Webb Yes Yes Yes 11
DeShaun Watson No Yes Yes 32
DeShone Kizer No Yes No 14
Jerod Evans No No ? 10
Mitch Trubisky No No No 8
Nathan Peterman Yes No Yes 16
Pat Mahomes No Yes Yes 16

Big Takeaway:
First of all, if NFL teams hold to the typical ideals, it’s no wonder they “hate” this class. The QB’s here such as Kizer, Trubisky and Mahomes simply don’t have a ton of wins. Outside of DeShaun Watson, that is.


Quite a few of them have transferred or have been or sitting behind other Quarterbacks for a season or two so there isn’t a lot of experience to go around especially after the top 3-4 guys.


What’s interesting about Watson, Kizer and Mahomes? All aren’t seniors....but they already have their degrees.


That, to me, says something about their intelligence in addition to their football savvy, and NFL scouts could see that as a positive.


The biggest standout names here for hitting Parcells’ marks is Watson, but also Beathard and Kaaya as they were all 3-year starters who amassed a ton of reps at the position and played in a ton of games and got their degrees. For many NFL fans who can’t seem to comprehend why Beathard and Kaaya are seemingly beloved by scouts, this is a good indicator of why: experience matters.


That said, it’s important to note some of the bigger names of QB’s such as Kizer, Mahomes and Trubisky, all have a very low total of wins, despite the fact that Kizer and Mahomes both started for 3 years.


These are all factors scouts must take into account. That said, the fact that the top Quarterback prospects of the past few years? Zero drafted in the first round who have hit 4/4 for the Parcells rules, and the last one who did, Connor Cook, went in the 4th round.


What Changed?
Answer: the NFL CBA.


Originally under the time the Parcells rules were being used, the top drafted players in the first round would get HUGE deals, with a lot of guaranteed money. Sam Bradford, memorably, received $50 million from the St. Louis (now Los Angeles) Rams for being the #1 overall pick.


Makes sense now that if you wanted to get the most guaranteed money, you’d do everything you could to get experience and show teams you were worthy of as high a pick as possible.


That motivation to go back to school to push your draft stock up further is a big part of why the top quarterbacks were able to get to three-years starting and 23 wins.


Today’s NFL?


Not the case.


Nowadays, the best Quarterbacks are NOT the ones who stay and develop until they are Seniors but rather the ones who are good enough to leave school early knowing they will get drafted high to start the process for their SECOND NFL contract more quickly.


These are the Quarterbacks who get a ton of reps despite being at a very young age--see guys like Jameis, Mariota Teddy Bridgewater and even Christian Hackenberg, all who had three years of reps and started as either a Freshman or Redshirt Freshman, and all were taken in the top 40 picks.


Conclusion:
This may be partially my personal opinion, but I believe that the NFL, currently, still holds the principles behind these rules in high regard.


And with good reason.


Many of the top Quarterbacks drafted check these boxes (see: Carson Wentz last year and a player with three of the four traits in Dak Prescott) and there are plenty others with these qualities who demonstrate elite success in the NFL. Quarterbacks do need a good number of reps at the college level to avoid being a “flash in the pan” or not being able to develop experience.


However....


The times have somewhat changed in the league thanks to the new CBA and with accelerated degree programs, and I don’t believe that being a “Senior” Quarterback is as important as being a 2-3 year starter. Degrees might not even be as important, but if it’s possible to get a degree in three years, I agree it should count as a good mark but it isn’t as vital as it used to be.


All in all, “rules” is not the correct term for Parcells’ standards.


The correct term is “guidelines”.


Those guidelines come from principles versus simply checking off boxes. The principle is that what you want in a quarterback is experience, commitment and leadership. Those are the traits that we don’t just see in the majority of highly drafted quarterbacks, but also the traits of elite NFL Pro-Bowlers.


If we can adjust these principles with the times, I think that Parcells gave scouts and evaluators an important metric to add to the many that should go into defining a Quarterback.


In short:


The Parcells rules are guidelines for ensuring that a QB prospect has gotten enough physical, mental and commitment “reps” to proceed at the next level.


To apply them stringently, however, is a mistake and fans and evaluators likewise should proceed with caution.


——-


Thanks for reading—we’ll be following up this evaluation next with with a statistical analysis of the top Quarterbacks using what stats pro scouts actually believe is important for success at the next level.


You can follow @blakemurphy7 at Revenge of the Birds and on Twitter.

http://www.revengeofthebirds.com/201...s-still-matter

Boykin was lighting it up at TCU. Quick release, good arm strength and great improvisational ability and can run. His knocks were hot button ones for draft rankings (1) He arrested after ge got into a bar fight and was suspended for his bowl game (2) he's under the QB 'mendoza' line for height.
So of course Seattle signs him as an UDFA given him a big signing bonus by UDFA standards. Of course he not only makes the team but wins the back-up job as a rookie which is rare.

Jacoby would have scored decent for me but not top tier. I viewed him as a 'Pro-style' QB that has mobility and big time arm but not much in the way of improvisation and didn't get the ball out quickly both via delivery and decision making.

j/c:









































https://twitter.com/BR_DougFarrar

Nice post =)

I do think that the 23 game minimum is important.

Look at the top QBs:

Brady: 25 starts
Brees: 35+ starts
Ryan: 25+ starts
Rodgers: 25+ starts (at Cal)
Roethlsberger: 35+ starts
Wilson: 40+ starts (between 2 schools)
Rivers: 40+ starts
Flacco: 22 starts
Stafford: 30+ starts
Luck: 30+ starts
Dalton: 40+ starts
Palmer: 35+ starts
Winston: 25+ starts
Eli Manning: 35+ starts
Derek Carr: 35+ starts
Blake Bortles: 30+ starts
Kirk Cousins: 35+ starts
Cam Newton: 13 starts

Most of the top QBs in the NFL have started more than 20 games, and all but a handful have started more than 30. Cam Newton is the big exception to the rule. Recent draftees include Dak Prescott, who started 3 years, as did Jared Goff. Carson Wentz had 20+ starts, even though he was injured in his final season. Paxton Lynch started 3 seasons. Manziel had 2 tears starting experience when the Browns screwed up and drafted him. Bridgewater had 3 years starting.EJ Manuel started for a couple of years, as did RG3. Ryan Tanehill had a year and a half or so of starts. Brandon Weeden started for a couple of years.


These are toe top QBs in the NFL, and then the most recently drafted 1st round QBs. I think that a QB can have the physical part, and teams can see that, but the hard part in knowing how a guy will handle the mental side of things. When a guy has had only a few starts, it is hard to judge how well he will do under heavy pressure, both on and off the field, and how he will handle being the leader and face of an NFL franchise.

That's why I worry about a guy like Tribusky. He has the arm, but can he handle the pressure of leading a franchise that will struggle for a couple of years before they really turn things around? He definitely looks the part at times, but he also played in a QB friendly system, and didn't start until this year. He looked great this year, but he wasn't under extreme pressure. His team went 8-5, which was better than most recent seasons at NC, but worse than last year. In his highest pressure game, the Sun Bowl, he threw 2 TS+D, but also an INT TD to Stanford. He also fumbles, leading to a short Stanford FG. There is a lot to like about Trubisky, but there are also major concerns. If he falls to the 2nd round, I might be tempted, but I would be leery of him in the 1st.

Just my $0.02 ... or so.