Hey guys, long time no read. I'm starting this thread, because every draft there's a lot of bull hype written in so called scouting reports available.
I've been in Browns depression for the past two seasons and since there was no sign of hope, I didn't even enjoy the draft process this year. Those who still know me around here, know that normally I'm a draft nut. So, going in I have not read a word and I'm just now starting to watch as much tape as available on the Browns pick to see if they've found something.
The aim of this thread is to give takes, personal scouting reports if you will, on players picked by the Browns this weekend. PURELY BASE ON TAPE OF THEIR PLAY. So please no more c/p draft reports. Just say what game or games you've seen and give us your quick take as detailed as possible (link to game and examples of play(s) watched to make your point etc)
That said, of course I started with the QB, DeShone Kizer. I expected to see Colin Kaepernick all over again, but I have to say, I was positively surprised and admit to be a little pumped after watching only two games so far. Here's my take:
I'll keep this very short and BOLD just to get this thread started. Kizer is a NFL QB and I truly think we found our franchise QB. Yeah, you read it here first (probably not) and I don't care what's written in reports and why he slipped to the 2nd. What I see is a NFL starting QB. He can start day 1 based on those two games. Maybe I just saw his two best games, that's why I will watch more now and add to this post later.
Last year, watching both Goff and Wentz, I concluded that Wentz was the much better QB based on his pocket play (awareness, evading blitzers, keeping eyes downfield etc). Kizer is as good if not better than Wentz and Wentz was pretty special. Kizer buys time, evades blitzers because he wants to THROW the ball and make plays, not to make a circus show out of it like that clown Manziel did.
Whoever says he doesn't have accuracy is an idiot, sorry to be so blunt about it. Kizer has some of the best deep ball accuracy I've seen from a college QB in a long time. In the Michigan St. game, at the end of the 1st half, he threw a hail mary from inside his own 40 in stride to his receiver who had the bullett slip through his hands. The ND receivers in general aren't much to talk about from what I've seen, so he wasn't helped much, same goes for his OL.
Kizer is the goods, and just 1 hour ago this was the last thing I thought I would write down. In fact, I didn't think I'd write anything about this draft, but watching Kizer has me pumped. If the rest of this draft wasn't a total failure, his selection alone might pull me right back into watching the Browns.
Other reports will come. Meanwhile, give us your take on Browns players BASED on FILM, please.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Good post. What you forgot to add was he wasn't playing for the best coach either. DK may be a perfect example of a player who needed a change. He got one and he's now playing for a better coach that cares and can help him grow.
I've now seen the back to back Stanford and Miami games. He was shortly benched in the Stanford game and came back strong vs Miami.
If this was his "worst", I'll take it. Here are just some of the positives I've seen so far:
- throw over run. Kizer is not your typical college QB. From what I've seen, he's ready to start day 1, especially considering our QB depth chart.
- great pocket awareness. Yes, he does hold on to the ball too long at times, but that's because he tries to make a play, NOT because he's timid (like, say, McCoy was)
- not afraid to take hits. He's very physical, takes hits to extend plays. Moves around. At the same time, he's not reckless with his body. He knows when to slide or just tuck the ball in on sacks. He only fumbles while being sacked when it's late an his team needs a score. I can excuse that. He's football smart and knows down and distance (and game score).
- bazooka arm and the accuracy is just fine. His coach called a lot of stupid screens when they were ahead.
Kizer is as close to a Roethlisberger or Cam Newton as I've seen in a long time. He can do it all. I know this sounds totally homerish, but how can you watch him and not think he's our franchise QB? People believed Manziel was a franchise QB and he never was a real QB to begin with. Kizer otoh is a real QB, not some HS shortstop pretending to be one. It's not that he "looks like one", he has IT. He makes his whole team around him better. HE makes his receivers NOT the other way around (back in the day I was the only one that argued that Evans made Manziel, bailing him out time after time).
From what I've seen in those 4 games, he's a NFL franchise QB and he's a Cleveland Brown now. That's good.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
People believed Manziel was a franchise QB and he never was a real QB to begin with. Kizer otoh is a real QB, not some HS shortstop pretending to be one. It's not that he "looks like one", he has IT.
I think that's a really interesting and very valid discussion point. I don't want to comment on Kizer because in the spirit of the thread I have not watched a lot of game tape, just highlights. My concern is what's going on between his head - and his feet. . . . what does totally resonate on any plays I have seen, he does indeed look like a QB.
Howard Wilson - I watched games vs Tulsa and Cincinnati. Wow. I watched the Tulsa game yesterday and then the Cinci game today ... the Cinci game is just outstanding.
-Keeps his eyes in the backfield a lot reading QB - 2 int - could of had a 3rd. - great at reading and burst to react to the play - good hands and leaping - not overly physical, but also not afraid to get stuck in
He might need some time to adjust to CB at the NFL but there is a ton to like.
Last edited by mgh888; 04/30/1709:26 AM.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I've now seen the back to back Stanford and Miami games. He was shortly benched in the Stanford game and came back strong vs Miami.
If this was his "worst", I'll take it. Here are just some of the positives I've seen so far:
- throw over run. Kizer is not your typical college QB. From what I've seen, he's ready to start day 1, especially considering our QB depth chart.
- great pocket awareness. Yes, he does hold on to the ball too long at times, but that's because he tries to make a play, NOT because he's timid (like, say, McCoy was)
- not afraid to take hits. He's very physical, takes hits to extend plays. Moves around. At the same time, he's not reckless with his body. He knows when to slide or just tuck the ball in on sacks. He only fumbles while being sacked when it's late an his team needs a score. I can excuse that. He's football smart and knows down and distance (and game score).
- bazooka arm and the accuracy is just fine. His coach called a lot of stupid screens when they were ahead.
Kizer is as close to a Roethlisberger or Cam Newton as I've seen in a long time. He can do it all. I know this sounds totally homerish, but how can you watch him and not think he's our franchise QB? People believed Manziel was a franchise QB and he never was a real QB to begin with. Kizer otoh is a real QB, not some HS shortstop pretending to be one. It's not that he "looks like one", he has IT. He makes his whole team around him better. HE makes his receivers NOT the other way around (back in the day I was the only one that argued that Evans made Manziel, bailing him out time after time).
From what I've seen in those 4 games, he's a NFL franchise QB and he's a Cleveland Brown now. That's good.
I watched several ND games. I didn't see any accuracy. I saw bad decisions, bad mechanics and its said he doesn't like football. Hopefully we can get a real QB next year.
Over the years, I wanted the Browns to draft Roethlisberger, Gabbert, Weeden and Wentz.
Of those, I've watched the least tape on Gabbert. It was need a need driven and scouting reports reading endorsment for the most part. It's also the reason why I stopped reading scouting reports and watch as much as possible for myself. So, I can't give a fair comparison.
If I had to rank the QBs Kizer is up there with Roethlisberger, followed by Wentz, then Weeden. I really liked the Weeden pick, but he never had the pocket awareness the others have. That's what I've learned from my Weeden crush: no pocket feel, no sustainable NFL glory.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Oh my, I hate to say it, but the best part of this pick is the 2018 1st rounder.
Peppers is a mix of TJ Ward and Josh Cribbs. Sounds good, right? Well, not so fast. He doesn't have Ward's run stopping instincts, in fact, he doesn't have ANY instincts AT ALL. This guy just wants the ball in his hands and doesn't care about the rest. He is a secure tackler, but he's a COMPLETE project as a defender, even at SS, where you can hide most of his lack of instincts. He almost completely lost the game himself vs OSU, they TARGETED him and fooled him repeatedly to get the game to OT and then ran to his side again for the game winner.
He's a pretty good returner though, but you don't pick PROJECTS in the first round, even if he's a great returner. Peppers' coverage ability is non-existent. Doesn't anticipate throws, needs the action in front of him. He's not very football smart and if he hasn't shown it at Michigan, he won't learn it in the NFL. He has to start from scratch there.
Peppers is not a football player, he's a pretty exciting athlete who likes to run around with a ball in his hand. Not day 1 ready, FAR from it and I expect a 1st rounder to be day 1 ready, especially if his position is SS, which is a pretty low value position (because it's easy to fill) to begin with. It's not a total waste of a pick, but a pretty big value waste.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Wow. When I watched his game tape (I can't remember which game it was) I saw someone with great discipline. He constantly set the outside edge forcing runs back inside. He did that against bigger TE's and OT's. . . . I saw what I thought was an out and out baller . . . he seemed to hit more than tackle but I didn't see him whiff . . . . I saw an explosive returner . . . which while a position of need is also not something I look to solve with a 1st round pick . . . In addition to the game tape I factor his playing so many positions as a positive, imagine how good he can be when coached at one position/role. And I love the Harbough quote saying Peppers and Luck are the two smartest/coachable players he's ever had.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Peppers will be our TE coverer .. one area we've lacked big time. I think that's a big role for him. Covering anything else? NO
Kizer, based on my watching some games, seemed to be fighting himself a lot. Trying too hard to either force a pass or not make a mistake ... neither leads to success. I think he and Kelly's relationship was so bad and he tried too hard.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
- Peppers is late recognizing the play and then gets fooled for more yds on the cut back
- next play is his worst. Vacates his spot, by biting on a lame pitch out and since the OLB already bit on that, my guess is he just followed him instead of recognizing what was going on and HOLD his position. Result was an untouched cakewalk TD for the QB
- on the game losing play (last play on the vid), he overruns again and has no clue where the ball is, resulting in another untouched TD
And those were ALL plays that he had the action in front of him. A SS has to show that he knwos where the ball is and then stop the run. Peppers has no clue, he runs around and guesses. When he's right or he has a clear view to the ball, he looks like the man, but consistency is key. He can't make up with his playmaking plays all the brainfarts he's committing. What I see is a player that simply lacks basic football instincts, that's alarming.
I've now seen one Njoku game too. Generally I don't like picking two low value positions in the 1st (SS and TE). I'm still on the fence on Njoku and need to see more. He's a horrible in-line blocker, but he gives effort, so maybe he can be taught. Some good JAC plays, but need to see more. So far, I don't see a clear cut 1st rounder.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Speaking of football instincts. This guy has them and for a CB, he really enjoys playing the run too. Sure tackler. He likes to play off in zone and is smart with his path to the ball. Assignement sure and team player. There's a lot to like. Might have some trouble playing 1on1 vs speedy WR. I actually see a lot of FS traits with Wilson. Did they say where they want him to play? CB or FS? I think he could be an even better FS, but a very solid 4th round pick. Trade up didn't cost much, well worth it.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Hey bud, I'm really glad you're back posting. Love this thread. My biggest concern watchingthe little tape that I did was that Kizer was a spot thrower who missed NFL type windows. A lot of passes were on button hook routes where the receiver came back and was stationary. Is that not what you saw?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
watching the Peppers tape, his speed will be an issue with angles IMO. And I think he's going to be HUGE when he's old.
IMO, he's similar to Donte Whitner
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Thanks. Yeah, Wilson is not a slot CB, lacks the quick twitch for that, but the combination of tackling ability and zone awareness got me thinking FS. Something to keep in mind if he gets burned to often by speed at CB. I see a good CB2 ceiling and a little more at FS. Good player either way.
Extremely disappointing game. I expected to see the hype of a clear cut no1 pick in a strong class, but all I got is a me-player that plays for himself and his stats. Not interested in stopping the run or help out his teammates in doing so. He had ONE good play, late in the 4th, down 3 scores and he was unblocked, lol. After that game I said to myslef that I'd rather draft Bama's no 74, who owned him 1on1 ALL GAME LONG. Turns out it was a pretty good prospect himself, Cam Robinson, who was drafted early 2nd by JAX.
I hope I see a much better game vs LSU next, because he was a total non factor in that blowout loss to Bama and his body language was extremely poor too. As much as I love the Kizer selection, all 3 1st rounders have been pretty disappointing to watch so far. Size/speed monsters who lack consistency and football smarts is what we have so far. Al Davis would be proud of the Harvard boys.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
D from what I've read JP seems to be a guy that fit's what GW is trying to do here on D. Don't forget he will be coached into a D that GW is trying to run. If he is smart and coachable as they are saying he could be a top end defender for us. There is a learning curve here for all our new players.
Hey, thanks. Yes, Kizer tends to wait a little too long for targets to be there, but I've also seen some plays where he has thrown the ball when receivers made the cut and weren't even looking for it yet, so I guess he is able to throw those too at least.
What I really like about him is that he scans from deep to short when it's 2nd or 3rd down and 10. This is the right mindset. God did I yell at the TV when McCoy drove me nuts with his timid stat padding in those situations. He was the definition of "not to lose football" in a QB's body. Kizer has the Favre/Roethli bravado, good and bad, but that's the risk you have to take to accomplish comeback wins or put games away. On deep throws, he's surprisingly accurate and he hits his receivers in stride, but I admit that's mostly when no defender is over the top. That will be a big test for him. As a DC, I would have at least one deep safety against him and not blitz him as much, because he will hurt you if you blitz and he gets away. That's the Roethli part that I love about him. Pocket feel/awareness and toughness to keep standing there simply can't be taught. That's why Wentz has a good chance to be a star QB and Goff will never be more than a game manager. And I think Kizer has an even higher ceiling than Wentz.
As much as I'm pumped about Kizer, I wish I would like more about our 1st rounders though.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Thanks. Yeah, Wilson is not a slot CB, lacks the quick twitch for that, but the combination of tackling ability and zone awareness got me thinking FS. Something to keep in mind if he gets burned to often by speed at CB. I see a good CB2 ceiling and a little more at FS. Good player either way.
Extremely disappointing game. I expected to see the hype of a clear cut no1 pick in a strong class, but all I got is a me-player that plays for himself and his stats. Not interested in stopping the run or help out his teammates in doing so. He had ONE good play, late in the 4th, down 3 scores and he was unblocked, lol. After that game I said to myslef that I'd rather draft Bama's no 74, who owned him 1on1 ALL GAME LONG. Turns out it was a pretty good prospect himself, Cam Robinson, who was drafted early 2nd by JAX.
I hope I see a much better game vs LSU next, because he was a total non factor in that blowout loss to Bama and his body language was extremely poor too. As much as I love the Kizer selection, all 3 1st rounders have been pretty disappointing to watch so far. Size/speed monsters who lack consistency and football smarts is what we have so far. Al Davis would be proud of the Harvard boys.
I have watched 2015 games and 2016 games - and maybe a bit like Cloney, he was disappointing in his final year. I don't expect that to be the case once in the NFL.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Let's hope so, because the LSU game was more of the same for me. He looks borderline DISINTERESTED in the middle of a play still in action when it's clear he can't rack up a sack or TFL. He DOESN'T follow the plays. There was a 2nd and 2 in the LSU game where he could have stopped the runner to force a 3rd but he gave up on the play in the middle of it. What is WRONG with this guy? Are there some motivational or me-attitude rumors? If he doesn't bother to play with so much money on the line, I'm seriously concerned he won't bother to play if THAT kind of stuff gets him to be the no1 overall and to multiple millions.
Based on those two games against talent he will face in the NFL, I would put a project late day 3 grade on him. I'm not BSing you guys. Watch those games and please tell me where he does ANYTHING good. He's at his best unblocked. This guy has no fight, no motor AT ALL. He wants to get to the QB. His coaches even moved him inside on some plays so that he'd face guards and that's when he at least got some pressure. Right now, he's a 3rd down pass rusher, a specialty player. FAR from a guy I'd trust on all 3 downs. Very, VERY disappointing. Man, who talked this guy up to be the clear cut no1?
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Not listing the games that I watched because I watched a little bit from a lot of different games and didn't watch any full games.
Weeden had me fooled too. Or should I say Justin Blackmon. That was when I realized a great Wr in college can make a college Qb look much better than he really is. That is why I was with you on Evans making Manziel.
Kizer looks like a different Qb in 2015 as opposed to 2016. Wil Fuller could take the top off the defense and Kizer could exploit it. Kelly really got into his head this year. You could see it in his eyes as the season went on.
Peppers is a tremendous athlete. He played out of position and too many positions at Michigan. I think Williams will be able to great things with him.
Njoku is going to going to keep defensive coordinators up at night. There are questions raised about his hands, but when you compare drop percentages to other quality TE's, it's not much different. Haven't watched him in the running game but few college TE (or pro for that matter) are good at receiving and blocking.
Ogunjobi - I wasn't impressed with what I saw from him. He has decent quickness but isn't strong/stout enough. And that was against inferior competition. Clearly a developmental pick.
Roderick Johnson - bleck - Cam Erving 2.0
Brantley - He makes some phenomenal plays that look Solomon Thomas like - especially in the LSU game. But other times seems to disappear. Great talent value where he was selected. But this pick just gives me that queasy feeling. I am sure this front office did through back ground checks on all these guys (unlike the Farmer regime - how could they not know about Gilbert and Manziel is beyond me) but this pick just doesn't feel right.
Gonzalez - Love the pick. Kickers are becoming more valuable all the time. I hate that change in the game but it is happening and we are being proactive. Plus we have had several games in the past 2 years that we lost solely because of the field goal unit. How often do you get a 10 year starter with all pro potential this late?
Dayes - Just another dude. Maybe we aren't satisfied with our 3rd Rb options but that is the only reason I can see us taking him.
I will end with Garrett. When you look at his film remember that he was playing with a high ankle sprain and shouldn't have been on the field. I would suggest you look at the Tennessee game. This was a game he played after taking the SC game off the week prior so the ankle had a chance to heal up some. He only had 1 sack but was quite disruptive in the backfield all game. Additionally check out some 2015 tape or the UCLA game to get a better feel. My biggest issue with him is that he doesn't play angry. All the great defensive players in history have played angry. From Bronko Nagurski to Dick Butkis to Jack Lambert to Lawrence Taylor to Ray Lewis and James Hairston. These guys weren't nice guys. They played angry. I just don't get that feeling from Garrett. I have no doubt that he will be a good player. But I do have doubt about him becoming a great player.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown. Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
My eyes are still sore from those two horrible Myles Garrett showings. I'm shocked how bad he played. I don't care if he owned some OT who will never sign a NFL contract. LSU and Bama are the closest thing to the NFL in college and Garrett sucked against them and what's worse, he didn't play for the team. I question his love for the game at this point. Really hope Hue can light a fire under his butt, because this dude needs it.
It's an incomplete for me. Tough to evaluate when the overall talent on the field isn't even close. Ogunjoby didn't stick out and seemed to be bocked 1on1 most of the time. I'll give him the effort and he never stops running until the whistle no matter how far away from the action, that's a start. There aren't many DL like that. A.Rubin was like that and I loved him for it. Seems like another unnecessary project pick right now. The Pierre Desir of DL (not fair, Desir was a total bum on tape, Ogunjoby at least hustles). This was maybe the time to finally pick a FS, which was like the biggest need position on defense going into this draft.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Peppers to me seems like a TED in a SS body. Great run support but horrible in coverage.
Haven't seen enough of Njoku. A Miami friend of mine really likes him. I'm looking forward to what he can do for us but it's not the way I would have gone with our third pick either
Thanks for your takes and information on Garrett, Jester. I will watch those games.
I actually liked Dayes vs Clemson. Nothing special or flashy, but very alert and good vision. Not huge upside, but he can play all 3 downs and should be a very solid 3rd RB for us. I like day 3 picks on RBs, best value position.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
- Peppers is late recognizing the play and then gets fooled for more yds on the cut back
- next play is his worst. Vacates his spot, by biting on a lame pitch out and since the OLB already bit on that, my guess is he just followed him instead of recognizing what was going on and HOLD his position. Result was an untouched cakewalk TD for the QB
- on the game losing play (last play on the vid), he overruns again and has no clue where the ball is, resulting in another untouched TD
And those were ALL plays that he had the action in front of him. A SS has to show that he knwos where the ball is and then stop the run. Peppers has no clue, he runs around and guesses. When he's right or he has a clear view to the ball, he looks like the man, but consistency is key. He can't make up with his playmaking plays all the brainfarts he's committing. What I see is a player that simply lacks basic football instincts, that's alarming.
I've now seen one Njoku game too. Generally I don't like picking two low value positions in the 1st (SS and TE). I'm still on the fence on Njoku and need to see more. He's a horrible in-line blocker, but he gives effort, so maybe he can be taught. Some good JAC plays, but need to see more. So far, I don't see a clear cut 1st rounder.
I don't agree with your Peppers analysis. What you call not recognizing the play, I call following his assignment. Supposedly, Michigan used Peppers as a force player to help cover up a lack of speed in the rest of the front 7.
Set the edge is a descriptive phrase and coaching term/point used to describe the ability of a perimeter defender – most often a defensive end or outside linebacker, but can also be a defensive back – to keep a ball carrier from running outside of the offensive tackle. Within the fabric of a defensive front, these edge defenders are often referred to as force players that have contain responsibility on running plays in their direction. The force defender sets the edge by maintaining outside leverage / body positioning in relation to the ball carrier, often doing so while taking on a block from the playside offensive tackle and/or tight end. If the force defender is unable to make the stop himself, he will – by setting the edge – funnel the runner back inside into the teeth of the defense. Conversely, failing to set the edge – whether through losing outside leverage and/or being kicked out wide by the blocker – can lead to running lanes both to the outside and inside of the force defender.
Yes, he got beat by the Curtis Samuel cut back in the one play, but look at it. Curtis Samuel is nearly sliding with his body angled below a 45 degree angle. Just a freak play by a guy who runs a 4.3, sometimes you can only tip your cap.
On the final play, I think 9 is more the culprit than Jabrill. Plus, Urban does a great job of spreading teams out horizontally. You can set the edge, but there is a lot of room for cutbacks.
Hopefully we won't be using Jabrill as a force player as often as Michigan had to.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
Garrett did crush the soul of McDermontt and he was just drafted this year by New England.
Ucla 2016 was easily his best game this year. Also one of the few without a high ankle sprain.
Ok, so I watched the game vs Tennessee and started the UCLA one and while he "looked" a little better, he wasn't making any plays and missed several and it's not because he was double teamed all day.
I stopped the UCLA tape after the play at 4min. Please watch that play, it's 3&1 and Garrett gives up on the play a couple of yds behind the runner. He could have stopped him for a 5yd gain, instead the runner escapes the trash in front of him for a huge play. In 3 and a half games vs quality college opponents I've seen more bad than good. For me he's all size/speed hype with little tape to back it up. Consistency is lacking, motor if off most of the time. I really question his passion for the game. I see a huge bust risk with Garrett that nobody seems acknowledge. People act as if he's got a high floor to go with his huge ceiling because of his freakish measurables, but this guy can bust real hard. He has a lot to improve and if he comes into the league with any entitlement, he will bust.
I'm very disappointed with the 1st rounders. A lot of risk and not much day 1 impact. All 3 will flash and make plays here and there, but we needed much more consistency from 3 first round selections. All 3 are athletes over football players.
Kizer was a great pick, he's a 1st overall talent. Howard Wilson was another good pick in the 4th and Dayes was solid in the 7th. I have yet to see Johnson and Brantley.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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