DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Some insights on the GW defense.

Since the last GW thread was closed I thought we'd try and pick up here.

In the last thread Vers mentioned that he and Diam noticed we were running our DE's out of a 4pt stance. Myles Garrett also rushed out of a 4 pt stance in college.

It was determined that the aggressive 4 pt stance is used to rush the passer but has a downside in that you are forced to literally run by the guard/tackle gap on running plays.

It was hard for me to think about how we would scheme to fill this gap on both sides of the line given how far back the LB's have to drop for the pass. I thought about the DT's playing outside/in but that just creates a huge hole in the center that you need to fill.

It finally came to me when I thought about one of GW's coverage schemes. I don't know that this is the way GW does it, but given what I know about GW, this is the way I think he does it.

The coverage scheme I was thinking of, I had read about before and I forget the name of it. Offenses typically go into motion to expose whether the defense is in man coverage. Typically this means that a DB will go into motion with the WR that is in motion and that tells the QB he has man coverage. What GW does is to have all the DB's and LB's shift assignments when this coverage is called. When a team floods one side with the motion, this often means that a DB or LB from the non-motion side is blitzing. and the d- line is shifting assignments to the motion side.

So scheme wise, the exact same thing could be happening based on the number of times we blitz. We could have both d-line shifts and run blitzes filling whatever gaps are created. It could be as simple as just blitzing into the guard center gap or having the d line shift to create a blitz gap anywhere along the d-line.

Again I don't know if this is what GW does, but this is what I'm guessing based on other things I've picked up about him.

The fact that he can mix this up in so many combinations would explain why offenses would have such a hard time running against us while our DE's are giving them a running lane.

It would also explain why our blitz percentage is so high.

Just a thought.

Good topic, but I still think that the 4-pt stance is more suited to stop the run and that the 3-pt stance is better to rush the passer.

I think the fact that our run defense has improve a lot and that we resort to blitzing so much are good indicators of that being true.

Now..........that is just my opinion and I respect your research into the matter. Not trying to fight. Just discussing.

No offense taken. The way you and I were taught with a 4 point was as a run stopping stance.

But this is a newer technique that I was a little familiar with in wide 9 defenses, but didn't realize was being used in other defenses.

This is the 4 pt stance that you and I are used to.


Square feet, weight back, designed to explode low and keep lateral movement.

This is the version designed for rushing the passer.



Staggered feet, weight forward, designed to sprint forward.

You mentioned you were a sprinter in school so you can imagine how hard it would be to move laterally with your first couple of steps out of the blocks. This would be the same. With the wide 9 it isn't as much of a problem because you can angle the rushers diagonally. They don't have to worry about boxing the run. With other defenses though, you still need to box, which means you have to line up straight and you are going to run past that guard/tackle gap. This is my attempt to figure out how you cover those gaps with your scheme.

Good post. You've done some research. Very impressive. You are making me re-think what I said.

I just watched a JJ Watt video and he was in the 4-pt also.

I might have had the wrong take.

I am willing to bet that some defensive coordinators are teaching their DE's to square up that stance for the run on running downs. It just makes too much sense.

GW being the aggressive guy that he is, doesn't worry about the open gaps because that gap is being filled one way or another with his different schemes.

At least I'm guessing that is how he is doing it. I could be completely wrong.

If anyone is interested, I just came across one of Gregg Williams old playbooks here:

http://www.footballxos.com/download/2003...=4541&ind=0

This doesn't confirm my guess but it certainly shows a lot of d-line movement and run blitzing.

Keep in mind our back 7 probably have different responsibilities than this old playbook due to the unique alignment, but the mindset and aggression should be the same in our defense and the d-line responsibilities should be close to the same.

Educational. Keep it up!!!!

I love this. I can't contribute but hope you guys, and others, keep it going.

Who here can remember Williams at the Rams and even New Orleans? I mean WATCHED those defenses frequently.

Did Williams play his FS this Deep and his Corners so far off the LOS?

2 quick thoughts-

From another thread I don't think they count run blitz when counting the number of times GG defense blitzes. I believe they are counting in passing situations only.

-When GG calls a defense that puts his DEs in a 4 pt stance I think they would have very basic gap assignments and run fits because a defense with the DEs in that stance is playing pass

The thing is though, they are in the 4 pt the whole game. I do agree with you that the gap assignments are limited. They would have to be. GW has to be filling those gaps some other way.

Great thread! The difference in the two varieties of 4 point stances makes a lot of sense.

Hmmnn....I've definitely watched/seen the DEs line-up in other stances.

Anyhow...it could simply be that Gregg gives the DE freedom to choose the stance they want during pass downs/passing playcalls.

That’s what I was thinking....ed.

Well, I only looked for it on the last game. So you might be right, but if they were picking and choosing that would need to be communicated in some way or those guard/tackle gaps would be open.

For the last game the DE's were in a 4 pt the whole time and the DT's were in a 3 pt. (Not sure if it was the whole game for the DT's because I wasn't looking for that)

Great thread, fascinating stuff. I can’t add anything at all but this board, at times, is fantastic. I’ll keep reading and learning My only comment is - scheming defense / offense is so detailed, meticulous that watching a game doesn’t do the thought behind it all justice. NFL - Chess at 100mph with big angry pieces!

In one of the articles I read from a link on here (don't remember which one) said Garrett, Ogbah and Collins were on the field together for only 5 minutes in 2017.

I agree. Now one of Ogun,Coley, or Brantley is going to get snaps that Danny would have gotten. All three of them can move and get in to the backfield.

or trade for Suh .. I have heard the 'fins would like to trade him

Ways to increase pressures:

-press on the CBs on the outside and stop playing so much soft and off coverage giving up easy pitch and catch throws

-find someone that can match-up with TEs

-add depth at Edge rusher. Ogbah + Garrett didnt play together often. And when 1 of them is out the overall pass rush drops because Nassib et al aren't good enough

having a lead in the 4th q. helps also in front 7 pressures.

yea, i remember that press conference, and how everything on defense went to crap from there.

peppers was so far back that it was easily 11vs10 on the field. i understand that he was playing out of position, but i refuse to believe he would've been THAT bad playing closer to the LoS.

Not only that, but once other teams figure out what you are doing, and it is not working, change what you are doing.

Some might say we didn't have good enough players, but if you're bad at what you are doing, shouldn't you at least try something else.

I don't like Gregg Williams. Never have. I despised the Bounty Gate guy. I don't like his huge ego. And I don't like how he always tries to play the tough guy.

However, the guy is respected in the league as a DC for his schemes and use of personnel. I find it both amusing and annoying that fans on a message board know more about a team's personnel and how to use them than Gregg Williams and Hue Jackson do. So, both of these will suffice.

i think fans have a case since hue and williams coached this team to....how many wins, again?

That's fine.

However, I think I have a case because Sashi Brown gutted the team and gave the coaches a bunch of crap to work with and he has since been fired and has not been even interviewed for another NFL personnel job.

i understand.

i also understand that other teams have also gone through a youth movement, and still managed to win games.

there's a reason that only 3 teams in the history of the nfl have ever gone winless. it is incredibly hard to do.

its almost as if one would have to go out of their way to go winless...

I agree w/that, but it isn't what I was addressing. I am just saying that I don't think any of us knows more about how to coach the team than Hue and Williams.

Furthermore, the Hue is 1 and 31 comments that are hurled out several times a day while people are thanking Sashi and never attaching the 1 and 31 record to his name is absurd. There is no doubt in my mind that Sashi's moves influenced the record far, far more than the coaching staff did. And I think you are smart enough and not biased enough to agree w/that. But, good luck trying to run that by some of the folks on here.

Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww this thread is actually REALLY good. I didn't play on the line but I learned something here. Thanks Deputy!

After seeing the defense last year:

As stated, Myles and Ogbah weren't on the field much together. Mainly because of injury. Collins was also a crucial piece of the puzzle that went away due to injury.

Peppers has no business playing the position/role he did last year and nothing was changed/modified. Maybe GW saw something I didn't and maybe it was a fit for him but from hte outside looking in, it appeared he was way out of position.

As stated, TEs killed us. Schobert/Kirksey have to increase their coverage skills.

We have really limited the run game though and improved us getting gashed all the time.

All in all, I have x2 more confidence in the defense than I do our offense. Like or hate GW but I expect him to have gathered/will gather more on the draft process pieces he needs to run his defense. Randall for example at FS may be what the doctor ordered and alone can help GW scheme better with the players he has/will have at his disposal.

FS-Randall
SS-Peppers/Kindred?
CB-Taylor?
CB-Carrie
NB-Body/Mitchell

SAM-Collins
MIKE-Joe
WILL-Kirko

RDE-Myles
3TD-Ogun
UDT-Coley
LDE-Ogbah