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#1688433 - 11/05/19 02:14 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: CalDawg]
DevilDawg2847 Offline

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Probably one of the biggest mysteries for me is why Bakers mechanics are just so awful this year? Last year he was always keeping his feet moving in a way that he could set them quickly. Itís why he was able to complete some pretty ballsy throws on the move
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#1688439 - 11/05/19 02:32 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: archbolddawg]
superbowldogg Offline

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Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
Anybody here ever play quarterback? Even in jr. high?


yes and my son did as well.
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#1688440 - 11/05/19 02:34 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: Iluvmyxstripper]
superbowldogg Offline

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Originally Posted By: Iluvmyxstripper
Mayfield is Andy Dalton 2.0


nah. he will be fine. he nees an offseason and a new QB coach
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#1688441 - 11/05/19 02:34 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: DevilDawg2847]
Milk Man Offline

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Originally Posted By: DevilDawg2847
Probably one of the biggest mysteries for me is why Bakers mechanics are just so awful this year? Last year he was always keeping his feet moving in a way that he could set them quickly. Itís why he was able to complete some pretty ballsy throws on the move


Coaching. He's lost confidence in OL from this year to last. Seeing ghosts. His own confidence is rattled. Pressing so he is second guessing himself.

Jake Burns did a nice breakdown from Baker last year to Baker this year (as of week 5) if interested in taking a look.




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#1688443 - 11/05/19 02:36 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: DevilDawg2847]
superbowldogg Offline

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Originally Posted By: DevilDawg2847
Probably one of the biggest mysteries for me is why Bakers mechanics are just so awful this year? Last year he was always keeping his feet moving in a way that he could set them quickly. Itís why he was able to complete some pretty ballsy throws on the move


I brought this up at the beginning of the year. someone messed with his mechanics and they are all over the place.

He looks like he is mimicking Brady too much vs just being who he was.
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#1688458 - 11/05/19 03:22 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: superbowldogg]
PitDAWG Offline

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Originally Posted By: superbowldogg
Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
Anybody here ever play quarterback? Even in jr. high?


yes and my son did as well.


And it's actually a fairly irrelevant question. Nothing actually prepares you for playing quarterback in the NFL except the NCAA. And often times the systems we're seeing run at the college level doesn't actually prepare you for the NFL.

When it comes to reading D's, especially post snap, usually nobody knows until you're thrown into the fire at the NFL level.
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#1688459 - 11/05/19 03:25 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: Milk Man]
PitDAWG Offline

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That sure seems like a lot of excuses for a player that's performing poorly.
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#1688468 - 11/05/19 03:45 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: CalDawg]
DaveyD Offline

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Getting out of the huddle with less than 10 seconds on the play clock 3/4 of the game, doesn't help either.

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#1688473 - 11/05/19 04:42 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: PitDAWG]
DCDAWGFAN Offline

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
That sure seems like a lot of excuses for a player that's performing poorly.

There is a fine line between an excuse and an explanation... and it often depends on what a person wants to hear.
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#1688478 - 11/05/19 04:57 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
PitDAWG Offline

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I think a lot of it has to do with credibility. A coach doesn't make you, "less accurate". He doesn't make "your footwork worse".

I understand that you can devise a scheme a QB isn't comfortable with. But if people think you can go into your second season by using a very limited playbook and reading one side of the field like he did last year, that's not very realistic.

The film was there and you either expand your O or you fail. Seems either way we failed but the playbook had to be expanded. At that point, the QB you drafted either grows or he stagnates.
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#1688485 - 11/05/19 05:19 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: PitDAWG]
DCDAWGFAN Offline

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Quote:
I understand that you can devise a scheme a QB isn't comfortable with. But if people think you can go into your second season by using a very limited playbook and reading one side of the field like he did last year, that's not very realistic.

The film was there and you either expand your O or you fail. Seems either way we failed but the playbook had to be expanded. At that point, the QB you drafted either grows or he stagnates.

Just to play devil's advocate... why not? Mayfield had some of his biggest games in the back half of last season, what is a defense going to learn in the off-season that those defenses couldn't have learned from the first 5-6 weeks of film?

I would also ask the question then that IF Mayfield was so limited last year and only using half the field and making one read and getting the ball out quick... and it was working... why go to an offense that asked him to stand in the pocket every freakin' play and burp the baby for 3.5 seconds waiting for guys to sprint down the field?

Sure, add a few things, throw in a little more complexity, but to say "You had success this way last year but next year, you have to be like Peyton Manning"... that's at LEAST as big a risk of just trying to do what worked last year.
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#1688489 - 11/05/19 05:36 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
DevilDawg2847 Offline

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Agreed. The Ravens had success with Lamar running the ball last year. Clearly he canít make a career of that and would need to get better in other areas. So what has Harbaugh done? He kept a lot of what Lamar is already good at and built him up from there.

It makes no sense to sacrifice wins at the expense of tryin to develop a QB. This is why the Ravens are whoopin people
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#1688490 - 11/05/19 05:40 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: PitDAWG]
DevilDawg2847 Offline

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I think a lot of it has to do with credibility. A coach doesn't make you, "less accurate". He doesn't make "your footwork worse".

I


No, but a coach if doing their job will make sure you keep up with the basics like your mechanics that impact your abilities. Sometimes a young player has to be reminded and kept in check especially if youíve got a guy who made a college career based on a more raw talent.
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#1688498 - 11/05/19 07:03 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: PitDAWG]
superbowldogg Offline

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Originally Posted By: superbowldogg
Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
Anybody here ever play quarterback? Even in jr. high?


yes and my son did as well.


And it's actually a fairly irrelevant question. Nothing actually prepares you for playing quarterback in the NFL except the NCAA. And often times the systems we're seeing run at the college level doesn't actually prepare you for the NFL.

When it comes to reading D's, especially post snap, usually nobody knows until you're thrown into the fire at the NFL level.


I agree 100%

Except... what these kids are learning at age 12 is so much different than what I learned at age 12 especially from reading the field and a throwing mechanics standpoint.

At age 12 they started teaching my son the fundamentals of the triangle stance and throwing in a J and the intricate details of a throwing motion. what to do with the football when you feel the pressure. when to get rid of the ball etc.

As a freshman he had pre-snap reads:
they teach to throw in a box how to read coverages

Basically, in the process of 25 seconds an average HS QB needs to know:
- where the LB's are/are they playing up back are they in a zone or man look.
- they need to know where all of their WR's are going
- they need to know if a RB is staying in to pass block or going out
- they need to decide if the CB's are playing man or zone
- they need to see if the Safties are playing up or back
- They need to know who their hot receiver is
- They need to decide if anyone blitzing
If so, they need to re-adjust the OL to pick up the blitzer or audible out of the play away from the blitz.

What I learned from coaches: post-snap reads are purely the results from your pre-snap reads and film study of opposing teams. - Basically what the QB/OC reviews with you that week about the opposing team.

What I learned in the last 8 years from his coaches teaching him has helped me understand the game so differently from a QB perspective than I would have ever had otherwise.

Ironically, after all of that training and coaching, he quit football because he was average QB/CB and wouldn't have gone on to play college ball anywhere and he has a shot with baseball. So, he decided to put all of his efforts into baseball as a pitcher. He's a senior this year. So, we will see how it all goes.


Kinda off-topic. The kid is throwing 82 pretty regularly as a senior. By the end of the year, he should be around 85-87. What blows my mind is that he may not even be good enough to get a college scholarship. When I was in HS, a kid throwing that fast was drafted in the MLB's. It is crazy to see how much sports (in general) has evolved over the last 20 years.
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#1688511 - 11/05/19 07:34 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: Milk Man]
bonefish Offline

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In reading and watching Jake Burns breakdown on last year and this year.

He covered it well.

It makes sense as well. During camp our defensive front was getting to Baker. He got to the point where he was expecting pressure before the play.

He fell into a syndrome of self fulfilling that the rush was coming. And fell into a habit of rolling right. Which cuts off half the field.

You can see over the last three games Baker has been trying to stay in the pocket and not roll right.

However, he is not comfortable. He is showing happy feet which he has done in the past but when he pats the ball; he is not trusting what he sees.

Conversely when Brady is in the pocket. He looks calm enough to make a sandwich. But keep in mind he is 42 and been in one system his whole career.

Baker needs help. Not sure if Lindley, Monken or Freddie are the answer. Maybe Stanton can help but I don't if he is still with the team after being placed on the IR.

I don't think it is mechanics. I think it is his eyes. He can see pre-snap. Post-snap he has to trust his preparation. When you study a defense you have to look for "tells" and tendencies. Trust what you see. Anticipate open and let it rip.

Easy to say. Hard to do. Experience counts.

In essence he is playing with the jitters pre-programmed.

I think he will work his way out of the problem.

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#1688520 - 11/05/19 08:08 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: bonefish]
mgh888 Offline

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Originally Posted By: bonefish




Baker needs help. Not sure if Lindley, Monken or Freddie are the answer. .


I agree with what you say except this bit. After 8 weeks and seeing no adjustment to help Baker, I'm comfortable saying Freddie and Monken are NOT the answer.

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#1688531 - 11/05/19 08:35 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: mgh888]
bonefish Offline

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I get that. I really do.

But we are not there in meetings. Lindley is the qb coach. A guy hired by Freddie. Lindley is not a guy with a long history of being a qb coach.

I remember Baker saying how helpful Stanton had been. I do not know if he is still in the qb room?

Actual throwing mechanics are not going to be worked on at this point in the season. Maybe slight stuff but nothing heavy.

What can be worked on in film sessions is exactly what Jake Burns broke down. Showing last year tape with the right approach. And then this year with what has gone wrong. That is visual reinforcement. Also it would not hurt to study film on veterans like Brees, Brady, Rodgers, and Wilson.

Try and get him to see how slight pocket movement, (slide, move up, find open space, then reset your feet).

I also think that adjustments need to happen in scheme design, and route patterns, with emphasis on shaking loose Odell. I don't believe they have figured out the best way to use Odell.

Using him on reverses or out of the backfield as a runner to me are not the way to use his talents.


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#1688563 - 11/05/19 10:39 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: bonefish]
DCDAWGFAN Offline

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Do you remember the Browns running a designed roll out? (Not just against Denver but all year) A bootleg or anything that INTENTIONALLY gets Baker out of the pocket.. I do not.
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#1688568 - 11/05/19 10:53 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
lampdogg Offline

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Now that you mention it..... I don't either.
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#1688573 - 11/05/19 11:37 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
Clemdawg Offline

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Me 3... and I've always thought the lack of a couple plays like that is stupid.
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#1688581 - 11/06/19 05:05 AM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
Dawgs4Life Offline

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Yep, we were saying that during the game at one point too ... our offense seems so limited
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#1688607 - 11/06/19 09:14 AM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: Dawgs4Life]
oobernoober Online   content

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Originally Posted By: Dawgs4Life
Yep, we were saying that during the game at one point too ... our offense seems so limited


Watching the SF game along with a bunch of the discussions going on here regarding scheme were extremely illuminating for me.

We are the anti-SF, in terms of how we execute our offense.
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#1688618 - 11/06/19 10:02 AM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: oobernoober]
devicedawg Offline

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2-2 without Callaway.

0-4 when Callaway plays.

I think Baker would rather get rid of Callaway than OBJ.

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#1688619 - 11/06/19 10:07 AM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: oobernoober]
FATE Online   content

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Originally Posted By: oobernoober
Originally Posted By: Dawgs4Life
Yep, we were saying that during the game at one point too ... our offense seems so limited


Watching the SF game along with a bunch of the discussions going on here regarding scheme were extremely illuminating for me.

We are the anti-SF, in terms of how we execute our offense.



I noticed this past Sunday... Seems like Freddie's cheat-sheet keeps getting smaller and smaller. Nothing like the poster board some of these coaches carry.

This Sunday I'm half expecting to just see an index card that reads
PASS
PASS
RUN CHUBB

He can just cycle through the plays as Mayfield stands in the huddle and tells everyone "Go deep!" on all the pass plays.

Not only is there no flow to anything we're doing, there is always some tip-off as to what to expect... Empty backfield on 1st and goal, No Chubb on 4th and 1, etc, etc...

Purp hit the nail on the head... Someone asked if the scheme and playbook were too complicated, he said "convoluted" is the better word.

I think we may have better success if all the plays are thrown in a hat and Freddie just picks them out, one by one.
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#1688620 - 11/06/19 10:11 AM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: CalDawg]
Dawgs4Life Offline

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J/c

In terms of SF ... if we had their offensive scheme, coaching, and play calling weíd be 6-2 or better IMO
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"First down as we threaten again. A score here puts us in the Super Bowl. Odell is far to the left as Landry settles into the slot. Njoku is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Hunt are split in the backfield as Baker takes the snap ... Here we go."

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#1688629 - 11/06/19 10:38 AM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
bonefish Offline

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The only ones I remember are RPO's. Where the roll is to the left briefly. Then there is a decision.

I was going over some of the route concepts yesterday. Looking at spacing and where and what the design was meant to do.

I didn't see anything that was abnormal. Meaning route design usually tries to spread the field. Create space and make the defense cover the field.

I believe most of the issues are timing related. One route takes x-time another y-time etc. It comes down to anticipate open and release. Once that is disrupted the play becomes off script. When a offense is in rhythm the timing is right. Receivers are where they should be and the ball is out to the right guy at the right time.

Most of the problems have come off script plays. Teams have studied Baker and his trends off script. They have become predictable. The defenses have adjusted.

That is why route concepts and timing are critical.

This comes down to coaching. Making sure trust and accountability is there.

If the Browns don't clean this up. The results will not change.

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#1688644 - 11/06/19 11:32 AM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
PitDAWG Offline

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Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN

Just to play devil's advocate... why not? Mayfield had some of his biggest games in the back half of last season, what is a defense going to learn in the off-season that those defenses couldn't have learned from the first 5-6 weeks of film?


That would be presuming that having a week to week time allotment to study a team is the same as having an entire off season to prepare for your opponents. You know your division rivals pretty well. Once the schedule is released, it gives you ample time to break down your out of division opponents for the upcoming season.

Quote:
I would also ask the question then that IF Mayfield was so limited last year and only using half the field and making one read and getting the ball out quick... and it was working... why go to an offense that asked him to stand in the pocket every freakin' play and burp the baby for 3.5 seconds waiting for guys to sprint down the field?


Who is saying that's what they're "asking him to do"? Are you and others on this board trying to suggest that the coaching staff is telling Mayfield he can't throw to a check down WR? That he should only concentrate on the long routes? That he shouldn't work through his progressions quickly and find the open WR? If I had to bet I'd say that's not true. I'm pretty sure nobody on the coaching staff wants him to stand in the pocket and hold the ball for 3.5 seconds.

Quote:
Sure, add a few things, throw in a little more complexity, but to say "You had success this way last year but next year, you have to be like Peyton Manning"... that's at LEAST as big a risk of just trying to do what worked last year.


It's kind of odd you say that because that's not even close to what I said. I said they had to "expand on the play book". Which is exactly the same thing you just said only in different words. I'm not sure if people are actually watching the games or not. Because we are doing some of the same things we did last year and running some of the same plays we did last year.
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#1688666 - 11/06/19 12:23 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: bonefish]
rastanplan Offline

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Originally Posted By: bonefish

In reading and watching Jake Burns breakdown on last year and this year.

He covered it well.

It makes sense as well. During camp our defensive front was getting to Baker. He got to the point where he was expecting pressure before the play.

He fell into a syndrome of self fulfilling that the rush was coming. And fell into a habit of rolling right. Which cuts off half the field.

You can see over the last three games Baker has been trying to stay in the pocket and not roll right.

However, he is not comfortable. He is showing happy feet which he has done in the past but when he pats the ball; he is not trusting what he sees.

Conversely when Brady is in the pocket. He looks calm enough to make a sandwich. But keep in mind he is 42 and been in one system his whole career.

Baker needs help. Not sure if Lindley, Monken or Freddie are the answer. Maybe Stanton can help but I don't if he is still with the team after being placed on the IR.

I don't think it is mechanics. I think it is his eyes. He can see pre-snap. Post-snap he has to trust his preparation. When you study a defense you have to look for "tells" and tendencies. Trust what you see. Anticipate open and let it rip.

Easy to say. Hard to do. Experience counts.

In essence he is playing with the jitters pre-programmed.

I think he will work his way out of the problem.


I am puzzled with Baker play this year,I don't think you play like he did last year out of luck, so I went back and watched some of last years games to try and figure it out.

The confidence last year was very visible,but the most noticeable thing is that Baker is chubby now...

His physical form is the thing I noticed the most, he was much more nimble and elusive and was able to scramble with success. he was much quicker. That's what I noticed the most in his game.

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#1688675 - 11/06/19 12:37 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: rastanplan]
bonefish Offline

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That is kind of bizarre. I don't think that has single thing to do with anything.


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#1688680 - 11/06/19 12:55 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: bonefish]
oobernoober Online   content

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I recall an article saying Baker did put on a bit of weight (muscle) in order to better handle the beating of a season. I remember because I've heard of other QBs doing similar stuff for the same reason (Matt Ryan either right before or right after his big season). Somehow, the extra layer(s) of muscle better prepare a QB for the punishment of the season.
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#1688705 - 11/06/19 01:40 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: PitDAWG]
DevilDawg2847 Offline

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I donít think itís clear at all that we are running the same plays as last year especially when you look at how little we actually go through a play action fake as compared to last year.
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#1688709 - 11/06/19 01:43 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: DevilDawg2847]
PitDAWG Offline

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We aren't running all the same plays from last year. We are running some of the same plays from last year.
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#1688710 - 11/06/19 01:50 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: PitDAWG]
DevilDawg2847 Offline

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
We aren't running all the same plays from last year. We are running some of the same plays from last year.


Indeed, but weíre not running enough of what we did last year to indicate weíre building off of what we did IMO.
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#1688711 - 11/06/19 01:52 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: DevilDawg2847]
PitDAWG Offline

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I guess your definition is what's confusing me here. So we are using some of last years plays. We've also added more plays, but we're not building on what we did last year? Hopefully you can see the confusion there.
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#1688714 - 11/06/19 01:56 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: oobernoober]
bonefish Offline

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His weight or muscle IMO has nothing to do with what has gone wrong this year.

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#1688716 - 11/06/19 02:00 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: PitDAWG]
DevilDawg2847 Offline

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I guess your definition is what's confusing me here. So we are using some of last years plays. We've also added more plays, but we're not building on what we did last year? Hopefully you can see the confusion there.


I donít believe the scheme we were trying to implement initially this season had anything to do with last years late season Ďruní. All you have to do is recall all the questions of Ďwhy arenít we doing what we did last yearí when we started to see Baker holding the ball longer and this offense wasnít moving. Outside of the occasional drive, the only game we saw even close to last year was the Ravens game.

Blame Bakers issues on whatever you feel is the source. He certainly has them. But whatís clear to me is that he is not comfortable with whatever they are trying to get him to do. Logic says that if this scheme is building off of last years, Bakers familiarity and success last year should mitigate to a greater degree his issues this year.
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#1688717 - 11/06/19 02:16 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: DevilDawg2847]
PitDAWG Offline

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What appears to be the biggest difference to me is that they expected him to start going through his progressions quickly and more of them. Last season it appeared to be more of a "one read, hit your spot" type deal. But as time goes on, your QB must learn to read and react.

As I said earlier, no coaching staff tells a QB to sit in the pocket and hold the ball. No coaching staff tells them not to look for an open WR when your primary target is covered. Nobody told him to abandon the pocket and roll out rather than step up in the pocket. Those are growing pains he will have to overcome. And protecting him from those growing pains is simply delaying the inevitable That's what's happening. But to claim you can just stick with a very basic O that we ran last year for the success of your team for the long haul I find to be very short sighted.

Yet I've seen them do that in games. Quick passes to begin the game. To build some rhythm. Then as things open up, it falls apart. You have to build a system for the long haul. Your QB has to learn to go through progressions and read the entire field. It's simply a part of the maturation process.

That's what they're trying to do here. And Mayfield's ability, or lack there of, will determine the longevity of not only his career, but the career of this coaching staff.
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Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

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#1688718 - 11/06/19 02:23 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: bonefish]
oobernoober Online   content

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Registered: 11/24/08
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Loc: San Diego, CA
Oh, I agree with you. Simply adding some color behind something that was said.
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#1688763 - 11/06/19 05:46 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: CalDawg]
CoachTodd10 Offline
Rookie

Registered: 11/06/19
Posts: 1
He looks like he is in a state of panic. I worry that his off the field weirdness is an indication of him coming unhinged. He is under a lot of pressure.


Edited by CoachTodd10 (11/06/19 05:47 PM)

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#1688764 - 11/06/19 05:48 PM Re: Baker Cont. [Re: CalDawg]
GratefulDawg Offline

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Loc: Chautauqua Lake, NY
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