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#1701674 - 12/01/19 08:02 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: EveDawg]
Jester Offline

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Posts: 6285
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Originally Posted By: EveDawg


How many years of "on the job training" will FK need before he can outcoach BB.


That isn't a fair question.
How many caoches in the league, regardless of experience, can outcoach BB?
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#1701678 - 12/01/19 08:09 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: Jester]
EveDawg Offline

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Originally Posted By: Jester
Originally Posted By: EveDawg


How many years of "on the job training" will FK need before he can outcoach BB.


That isn't a fair question.
How many caoches in the league, regardless of experience, can outcoach BB?


Well, do you want to go to the Superbowl or not?

What is your goal for this team?
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#1701682 - 12/01/19 08:27 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: BarkinMad]
BirdDawg81 Offline

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Posts: 187
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I'm OK with them canning Freddie. Don't really understand why he was hired to begin with. I gave him the benefit of the doubt which is now gone due to poor play of the team. The thing that concerns me is can we get a good replacement with the track record we have? I don't think that can be factored into the equation...but...


1999 Chris Palmer
2000 Chris Palmer
2001 Butch Davis
2002 Butch Davis
2003 Butch Davis
2004 Butch Davis / Terry Robiskie
2005 Romeo Crennel
2006 Romeo Crennel
2007 Romeo Crennel
2008 Romeo Crennel
2009 Eric Mangini
2010 Eric Mangini
2011 Pat Shurmur
2012 Pat Shurmur
2013 Rod Chudzinski
2014 Mike Pettine
2015 Mike Pettine
2016 Hue Jackson
2017 Hue Jackson
2018 Hue Jackson/Gregg Williams
2019 Freddie Kitchens
2020?

This is our list of head coaches, including interim, since Browns came back as an expansion team. 11 head coaches for 21 seasons. 9 if you exclude the interim coaches (Terry Robiski & Gregg Williams). So thats basically either 1.9 years/coach or 2.3 years/coach, depending if you include interim.

Since Haslam got the team obviously it is worse. I think he got the team in the 2012 season if I remember correctly. So in 8 seasons, Haslam has had 6 head coaches. That includes Shurmur (who wasn't his guy) and Gregg Williams... even if you don't include those guys, he has fired 4 of his own head coaching choices. That is basically 2 years per coach (or less).

As I said above... I would *NOT* hang on to Kitchens for the sake of hanging on. How much time do you give a coaching staff to get it right? 3 years probably is a good time table. At least it would make coaches more likely to come here. I think it makes it harder to get assistant coaches too. Who wants to move their family after a year....

I have a bad feeling that they keep Kitchens if he wins a couple more games.

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#1701705 - 12/01/19 09:25 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: BarkinMad]
SuperBrown Offline

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Well, I guess I can't keep this inside any longer...

What's a Freddie Kitchens?????

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#1701708 - 12/01/19 09:33 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: BarkinMad]
chirp30 Offline
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Hopefully an unemployed NFL coach at the end of the year.

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#1701710 - 12/01/19 09:34 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: chirp30]
SuperBrown Offline

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Originally Posted By: chirp30
Hopefully an unemployed NFL coach at the end of the year.

rofl

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#1701717 - 12/01/19 10:06 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: BarkinMad]
OldColdDawg Offline

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There is a reason we have to replace Freddie; he's a special kind of stupid. His going to the air week after week and abandoning the run, even after he recognized this publicly as the wrong thing to do, shows he just can't do the right things consistently or even follow his own advice. GTG Fred.
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#1701731 - 12/01/19 11:14 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: BarkinMad]
Iluvmyxstripper Offline
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Posts: 1663
I see Freddies Fan Club isn't showing up.to defend him.

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#1701743 - 12/02/19 01:09 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: OldColdDawg]
Rishuz Offline

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Posts: 12626
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Originally Posted By: OldColdDawg
There is a reason we have to replace Freddie; he's a special kind of stupid. His going to the air week after week and abandoning the run, even after he recognized this publicly as the wrong thing to do, shows he just can't do the right things consistently or even follow his own advice. GTG Fred.


I don't think Freddie abandons the run per se.

It's that the offense has no identity or flow. No rhyme or reason to it. He runs when he should pass. He passes when he should run. He goes empty backfield on running plays completely eliminating any doubt that it will be a pass. He takes shots on down and long to go when you should be taking shots on down and short to go. The players don't seem to really know what they're doing or where they're supposed to be. How many times a game including this one do you see Baker correcting guys on where they should be? It's week freaking 12. How many times are we getting to the line with like 7 or 8 seconds to go.

No, this isn't a he isn't running enough problem. I think people are confused. This is a complete offense problem with multiple issues.

It's pathetic quite frankly. The fans deserve better.

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#1701752 - 12/02/19 05:18 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: BarkinMad]
Dawgs4Life Offline

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J/c

One big thing I’ve noticed: Our PA game is non-existent, or at the very least ineffective. We don’t have plays that build off one another .. we kinda just seem to call stuff to throw it against the wall hoping it sticks.

When we’re in the shotgun so much, the PA game doesn’t work and Baker just haphazardly fakes it to the back ... never sells anything
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"First down as we threaten again. A score here puts us in the Super Bowl. Odell is far to the left as Landry settles into the slot. Njoku is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Hunt are split in the backfield as Baker takes the snap ... Here we go."

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#1701757 - 12/02/19 05:37 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: Iluvmyxstripper]
keithfromxenia Offline
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I did not know Freddie has a fan club but I do know that if you add up the nfl play calling experience of the geniuses on here it would add up to about, oh, maybe 0. Anybody who puts any credence into these critiques probably gets their symptoms diagnosed and treated by the counter guy at the local Burger King. That would make just about as much sense.

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#1701758 - 12/02/19 05:41 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: BarkinMad]
Spawn1 Offline

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I think a lot of this goes to the head coach calling plays. The HC has to watch the whole game and make decisions, such as when to go for it, when to challenge and other stuff. The OC can just focus on calling plays. If the OC is calling plays, then he already has three or four plays ready when the ball is placed, cause he's looking at the playbook during the previous play. If the HC is calling them, he's waiting for the result of the play to decide which plays to call. Not sure how the Browns do it, but most teams call 3 plays in the huddle, and then decided when they get to the oine which one to run, (I know that's what Manning did in Indy) but if the HC is calling them, then the plays are getting in late so the team is rushed and that's when the penalties start.

Also, call plays that are tailored to your team. Yesterday, they said we are like second in the league in points on opening drive, that's because those plays are scripted. Then, once those plays are run, it's Air Freddie the rest of the way. We had way too many 5 and 7 step dropbacks against the Steelers, their Dline is way to good for that. We need more quick throws, draw plays and screens. Our Oline is not that good, and we had a backup tackle in the game. So, get the ball out of Baker's hands faster.

One more thing, NO MORE EMPTY SETS INSIDE THE 10 YARD LINE. You got Chubb (1200 yrds) and Hunt (2017 rushing champ) put those guys back there and let them work.

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#1701764 - 12/02/19 07:51 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: keithfromxenia]
mgh888 Offline

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Registered: 03/15/13
Posts: 5148
Originally Posted By: keithfromxenia
I did not know Freddie has a fan club but I do know that if you add up the nfl play calling experience of the geniuses on here it would add up to about, oh, maybe 0. Anybody who puts any credence into these critiques probably gets their symptoms diagnosed and treated by the counter guy at the local Burger King. That would make just about as much sense.


I mentioned in the Post Game thread - the lack of experience of fans at the NFL level means we can't comment on what's being called each week by FK? In Post Game you laughed at the idea fans would be better than Freddie at calling plays ... and I responded that wasn't the point - is it? It's all about how Freddie performs and if you think he's doing a good job. If you think calling 6 running plays the entire second half is giving the team the best chance to win the game and execute?

Then you said it was about players not executing - and I mentioned that sounded a lot like Hue. Hue called perfect plays every single snap but they team sucked. . . . OR maybe the coach needs to call and design plays his players can consistently execute.

Then you talked about how good the Pit D was and how much pressure Baker was under ... and a couple of people asked whether it was good play calling to continue not to double team their best pass rusher ... whether it wouldn't have been good too see the RB's chip their edge rushers. Whether it was still a good idea to continue to call mostly pass plays that took receivers on medium or deep patterns that needed time to get open.

I'd say any/all of those questions and observations are valid. It doesn't deserve a derogatory response to sarcastically be referred to as 'geniuses' for wanting to see improvement from Freddie ... the guy who looked like a deer in the headlights in the biggest moments of the biggest games this season. . . . I've said it consistently from about game 3 - Freddie's ability to be a HC and OC worries me and I want to see improvement. The penalties have improved, the play calling has improved and has been good here and there. It has not been consistently good. and there has been some damn right awful too. Early in the season Freddie consistently panicked and went pass happy. He did it again yesterday and we have one of the best - if not the very best - RB duo in all of the NFL available in the backfield. AND what worked on the long drives in the first half? ... the running game. And then we ran the ball 6 flipping times 2nd half in a game we were never down by more than 10 points.


Edited by mgh888 (12/02/19 07:53 AM)

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#1701765 - 12/02/19 07:56 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: BarkinMad]
willitevachange Offline
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Registered: 09/07/17
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6 runs in the second half when you got a guy on pace for 1600 yards and kareem hunt, unacceptable.

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#1701768 - 12/02/19 08:15 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: willitevachange]
MemphisBrownie Offline

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j/c:

#FreeToddMonken
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#1701772 - 12/02/19 08:23 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: MemphisBrownie]
willitevachange Offline
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Registered: 09/07/17
Posts: 8559
Originally Posted By: MemphisBrownie
j/c:

#FreeToddMonken


How many times did we blitz that kid yesterday?

#firewilkes

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#1701777 - 12/02/19 08:27 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: willitevachange]
Rishuz Offline

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Posts: 12626
Loc: Las Vegas
Originally Posted By: willitevachange
Originally Posted By: MemphisBrownie
j/c:

#FreeToddMonken


How many times did we blitz that kid yesterday?

#firewilkes


A lot. The Duck was instructed to throw it up every time that happened. Our corners suck.

Would have been nice to have Myles.

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#1701779 - 12/02/19 08:28 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: willitevachange]
Bard Dawg Offline

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Not enough obviously. We still need a few tackles, more run calls, and the list goes on. Do you think we improved over last two weeks?

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#1701785 - 12/02/19 08:53 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: BarkinMad]
willitevachange Offline
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J/C

Pittsburgh media laughing it up today -

"Freddie is an idiot"
"Coach stinks"
"why give motivation to the other team"
"no discipline"

literally just spent an entire segment on how the HC is supposed to deal with distractions, not create them.

Sad, I have to agree.

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#1701792 - 12/02/19 09:44 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: willitevachange]
WSU Willie Offline

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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 5425
Originally Posted By: willitevachange
J/C

Pittsburgh media laughing it up today -

"Freddie is an idiot"
"Coach stinks"
"why give motivation to the other team"
"no discipline"

literally just spent an entire segment on how the HC is supposed to deal with distractions, not create them.

Sad, I have to agree.


I'm afraid that that says a lot as to why we have so many issues with discipline and unnecessary distractions. It's 'just a T-shirt' when you show up and win...it's a needless distraction when you lay an egg. I don't think even BB or John Harbaugh would bother to take that chance.

It's time to take away play-calling from FK. And YES...I know and understand that that is why he got the gig in the first place. BUT...he's either failing at what we thought he could do...OR...he's doing what he WANTS to see work rather than what has a good chance to work. He is not the OC we had the last 7 ish games of last year.

This experiment isn't working. The plan was decent with a rookie HC and two experienced coordinators beside him. But we have not gotten better as the season has progressed...our offensive flow outside the "script" is non-existent...our defense has no teeth outside a handful of players...our opponent has/gets our 'number' without even needing the benefit of the halftime break to stifle/beat us.

When you try to 'catch lightning in a bottle' and fail to do so. You shouldn't then pivot to playing the 'continuity card' as your sole/primary justification for not moving on.

It didn't work...it's not improving...next man up.

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#1701796 - 12/02/19 09:59 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: BarkinMad]
BpG Offline

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You don't hire a running backs coach as your head coach and expect them to be a master.

Too many injuries, too many "player" problems, Myles, Baker not playing well early (partially scheme), lots of what I would call "unlucky" turnovers.

In addition, entirely new staff, rookie HC, one of the youngest rosters in the league, Two corners sitting with hammys for friggin 4 weeks.

Randall clearly disgruntled with his contract situation. The whitehead incident.


It looks like what you might think if you aren't a Browns fan....rookie HC, installing two new schemes looking extremely sloppy the first half of the season. Unquestionably, despite this loss the team has looked a lot better lately and I trust will turn some heads playing Arizona and the Bengals twice.

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#1701800 - 12/02/19 10:21 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: BirdDawg81]
BADdog Offline

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2013 Rod Chudzinski, Id make him an offer
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#1701802 - 12/02/19 10:24 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: BADdog]
Rishuz Offline

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Loc: Las Vegas
Chud was the worst coach the Browns have had since the return and it's not even close.

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#1701807 - 12/02/19 10:46 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: Rishuz]
DevilDawg2847 Offline

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I’d bring Gregg Williams back. I don’t need him to call an offense or a defense. Leave those to coordinators. I just need him to coach a disciplined team and create a fire under these players. If this was a disciplined team that was serious and took itself seriously from Week 1 I have no doubt we’d be pushing Baltimore for the top in the division
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#1701808 - 12/02/19 10:51 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: Rishuz]
Milk Man Offline

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Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 6030
Originally Posted By: Rishuz
Originally Posted By: willitevachange
Originally Posted By: MemphisBrownie
j/c:

#FreeToddMonken


How many times did we blitz that kid yesterday?

#firewilkes


A lot. The Duck was instructed to throw it up every time that happened. Our corners suck.


Smart coaching by Tomlin. Have Duck throw a bunch of 50/50 jump balls. With the amount of pass interference called in today's game, why not take the chance?

Browns never challenged deep unless they were chucking 65 yard passes before the half. Which that sequence of events was another level of stupidity.

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#1701830 - 12/02/19 11:43 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: DiamDawg]
oobernoober Offline

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Registered: 11/24/08
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Diam,

I'm not an the fire-Freddie bandwagon, but I am checking to see if there's a seat for me, and here's my reason...

He's shown he can't/won't learn from his mistakes. For me, that's a big one because keeping him here hinges almost entirely on him getting a whole lot better in a very short amount of time.
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#1701837 - 12/02/19 11:52 AM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: Rishuz]
rastanplan Offline

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Posts: 2178
Originally Posted By: Rishuz
Chud was the worst coach the Browns have had since the return and it's not even close.


I think you are forgetting Hue.. Kitchens

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#1701845 - 12/02/19 12:05 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: oobernoober]
DevilDawg2847 Offline

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Originally Posted By: oobernoober
Diam,

I'm not an the fire-Freddie bandwagon, but I am checking to see if there's a seat for me, and here's my reason...

He's shown he can't/won't learn from his mistakes. For me, that's a big one because keeping him here hinges almost entirely on him getting a whole lot better in a very short amount of time.


I’d like to add this crap philosophy of “1-0” when you’ve reached a game described as having a playoff atmosphere and real world implications. I get not wanting to let the team to get distracted by the remaining schedule. But this game should have been played with a sense of urgency as if it was THE game that would put them in the playoffs next week. But instead this team came out flat and uninspired. But that’s ok because we can always go “1-0” next week.

If he’s retained I hope he spends a lot of time seriously trying to sort out his philosophy.
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#1701853 - 12/02/19 12:30 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: DevilDawg2847]
Homewood Dog Offline

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Registered: 03/16/13
Posts: 2240
IMO the bottom line is Freddie was hired as HC because he and Baker worked so well together last year. You can't blame John Dorsey because it looked like we caught lighting in a bottle. The O looked great and then we added OBJ. We took a shot with Freddie and it hasn't worked out but it did look like a shot worth taking. At the end of the season it all has to be evaluated and decisions have to be made. It's not the Haslams fault or JD's fault. It was a shot worth taking. JMO

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#1701857 - 12/02/19 12:47 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: Homewood Dog]
superbowldogg Offline

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7 minutes of discussing Freddie Kitchens.

waoh..
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#1701858 - 12/02/19 12:48 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: BarkinMad]
FrankPitts Offline
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Registered: 09/23/19
Posts: 36
I agree with Homewood Dog. Freddie was a shot worth taking based on last year.

Now, the people who get paid lots of money to administrate need to make the best decision moving forward. Admit that the shot did not work as expected. Chalk it up, and hire someone better for next year. This guy ain't making it.

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#1701859 - 12/02/19 12:54 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: Homewood Dog]
Milk Man Offline

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Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 6030
Originally Posted By: Homewood Dog
It's not the Haslams fault or JD's fault.


The Haslams set the culture and tone of the organization. It was cute early on when the Browns players and HC were talking trash and acting like they arrived before playing a single down. Now, they're losers and still talking.

Players have attitude issues, get suspended for drug violations and are immediately rewarded with playing time only to have it burn the Browns. Training camp participation is seemingly optional for some. Lack of discipline team wide. One of the most immature teams I can remember.

Freddie preached focusing on eliminating outside distractions, not to become a distraction to the team, move forward to the next game and keep the rest in the past. He then proceeds to wear a 'Pittsburgh Started It' t-shirt and gets embarrassed by a team starting their 3rd string QB for the second time this season and then doubles down on his decision during his postgame presser.

This is absolutely the type of culture permitted by the Haslams and to a reasonable extent Dorsey. But, ultimately, it starts all the way at the top.

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#1701872 - 12/02/19 01:33 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: rastanplan]
Dawgs4Life Offline

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Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 49603
Loc: Edinboro, PA
Originally Posted By: rastanplan
Originally Posted By: Rishuz
Chud was the worst coach the Browns have had since the return and it's not even close.


I think you are forgetting Hue.. Kitchens
my least favorite was Shurmur
_________________________
"First down as we threaten again. A score here puts us in the Super Bowl. Odell is far to the left as Landry settles into the slot. Njoku is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Hunt are split in the backfield as Baker takes the snap ... Here we go."

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#1701876 - 12/02/19 01:37 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: Swish]
PitDAWG Offline

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Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 37698
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
Originally Posted By: Swish
if he wasnt worried, he should be.


No, I don't think so.

What good would it do? I mean people worry about things all the time. Yet it has zero impact on the outcome of anything. It's just an added distraction that does no good.

As far as I'm concerned I hope he manages to stay focused on each upcoming game and doesn't allow himself to worry about things that worrying can't change.

Not that it's done much good so far.
_________________________
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#1701895 - 12/02/19 01:50 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: BarkinMad]
GratefulDawg Online   content

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Hi guys, sorry I haven't tweeted in a while. I had the damndest time finding another "Free 1000 Hours" AOL disc.

Anyways, ready for a rational #Browns take?

The Browns are almost exactly where they were supposed to be

When Dorsey hired Freddie he wasnt planning on competing for a Super Bowl this year. He was planning on 2020-2022 (when all the rookie deals expire). Thats why he hired Freddie, to grow with this team and QB.

“The first task at hand is be very competitive in the AFC North and see what unfolds because it all starts there, and pick up where you left off in 2018 and dare to set your expectations high. Why not?" - Dorsey at his year end presser. They def have accomplished the first task

Then OBJ becomes available and they trade for him (which you ABSOLUTELY have to do if you have the chance) and all of a sudden expectations change and this is a team that supposed to compete for the SB. Thats a huge leap to make, especially for a team this young.

So if the OBJ trade is never made, were frustrated w Freddie & this team, sure. But were also saying damn thats 1 of the most talented young teams in the NFL and prob will be a contender next yr if they stop sabotaging themselves.

One trade changed the optics but not the reality

That doesnt mean Freddies the guy & this team def shouldnt have bought into its own hype & theres no guarantee this whole thing will ever even work. But the fact still remains that building a winner (especially for an org that has losing so deeply engrained in its DNA) takes time

For most teams that make the big jump “out of nowhere” you can actually see an incubation period right before it. One where theyre accumulating talent, learning how to win on the road and in big games etc.

So this all feels like the end of the world but in reality this is just the beginning of long ride with this team over the next few seasons, for better or worse

https://twitter.com/i/status/1201569978165661697

Will Burge
@WillBurge
&#128394; Writer &#127908; Talker &#9824;&#65039; Hustler ~ Formerly of ESPN, iHeart, B/R and Fox Sports
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#1701901 - 12/02/19 01:56 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: GratefulDawg]
Rishuz Offline

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Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 12626
Loc: Las Vegas
Excuses.

The NFL is a year to year league. If you're building for two or three years from now, you've already lost.

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#1701906 - 12/02/19 02:01 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: Homewood Dog]
willitevachange Offline
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Registered: 09/07/17
Posts: 8559
Quote:
You can't blame John Dorsey because it looked like we caught lighting in a bottle.
Hogwash. He hired him. The blame is on him.

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#1701925 - 12/02/19 03:02 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: BarkinMad]
Iluvmyxstripper Offline
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Registered: 01/01/15
Posts: 1663
Dorsey could have had Mike McCarthy.
Now it's backfiring

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#1701928 - 12/02/19 03:07 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: BarkinMad]
SuperBrown Offline

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Posts: 3103
Loc: Birmingham, Alabama
Kitchen's doesn't have to worry about job security until the Bengals game is over in game 16.

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#1701977 - 12/02/19 04:41 PM Re: Kitchen's not worried about job security. [Re: BarkinMad]
Swish Offline

Legend

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 43574
Loc: The Land
jc

just want to remind the board that with all the crazy injuries and coaching nonsense in NY...the jets have the #6 overall defense, led by gregg williams.
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“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”

- Theodore Roosevelt

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