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#1702538 - 12/04/19 01:34 PM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Dawg Duty]
OldColdDawg Offline

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This year, lamar is easily the superior QB. I still prefer Baker.

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#1702713 - 12/05/19 08:26 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Dawg Duty]
Swish Offline

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For all those talking about the potential of Lamar getting hurt while running:

Let me remind the board that baker mayfield has been the one rolling around on the ground in pain this season multiple times. Our non athletic QB has taken more hits than the guy yall claim runs too much.
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#1702724 - 12/05/19 09:02 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Swish]
Haus Offline

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I remember catching part of one of Jackson's press conferences some weeks back. It was an auto-play video that came up on ESPN.com or one of the football sites I read. That dude looks like a tank now, nothing like he did at Louisville. Whatever the Ravens strength & conditioning team did with him is pretty amazing.

This is something I bring up from time to time. You have to look beyond just what players you bring in, or even who's coaching them. You have to look at the big picture. Surely we'd all agree that having a team make your players some combination of bigger, faster, stronger, and more resilient to injury would be a huge advantage, right? So why don't we ever talk about it?

I think a lot of the Browns misery over the years comes back to simply not getting their players prepared properly. This means coaching (on the field stuff) and strength and support staff as well.

For example, when Garrett and Ogunjobi were posting those videos with impressive squat poundages, I couldn't help but notice that their form was simply gosh-awful, like they were completely uncoached in that regard. And why was Garrett doing box jumps with 50lb dumbbells? Do people have any idea how much stress that puts on the elbows? There are better ways to do plyometrics. Fine, Garrett could get away with it, but what about more typical players?

More thoughts along the same lines here: http://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.ph...ity#Post1702518

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#1703000 - 12/06/19 09:07 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Swish]
WSU Willie Offline

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Originally Posted By: Swish
For all those talking about the potential of Lamar getting hurt while running:

Let me remind the board that baker mayfield has been the one rolling around on the ground in pain this season multiple times. Our non athletic QB has taken more hits than the guy yall claim runs too much.


I don't know that another comparison could ever be more irrelevant and/or misleading than that one right there.

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#1703036 - 12/06/19 09:56 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: WSU Willie]
Swish Offline

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Its the truth.

And absolutely relevant.

We drafted a guy half the board is either the same height or taller then, and hes not even athletic.

Honestly i rather have back manziel. The honeymoon with baker is beyond over.

He needs to perform, because its looking like we drafted the wrong guy.
_________________________
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.

- Theodore Roosevelt

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#1703059 - 12/06/19 10:49 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Swish]
PitDAWG Offline

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I think there's a huge difference between being fast and being athletic. Over and over again Baker has managed to move in the pocket and avoid sacks and tackles. He's not just some statue that amounts to a tackling dummy.

So Baker is athletic. He's just not as fast nor can he play both QB and RB.
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#1703062 - 12/06/19 11:04 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: PitDAWG]
bonefish Offline

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Proclaiming that Baker is not athletic is a bit much.

It is impossible to accomplish what he has not be athletic.

Not going to get into a Baker critique but I will say IMO that he is still a top notch prospect.

Giving up on a quarterback at this stage will accomplish nothing.

All quarterbacks can look bad at times. All of them. Baker has as much potential to be good as any.

Quarterback is a position of development for a entire career.

There have been some issues that have arisen that are concerning with Baker. I don't dispute that.

However, IMO he will turn out to be a very good player.

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#1703069 - 12/06/19 11:22 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: bonefish]
PitDAWG Offline

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I'm right there with you. I've been labeled a Baker hater in the past because I have never hesitated calling out his immaturity when it raises its ugly head. You don't have to create a controversy to have fire and passion.

I had no problem pointing out his struggles the first half of this season.

Yet I also have no problem giving credit where credit is due. Baker has improved over the second half of this season so far. He seems to be conducting himself pretty well with the press. Those are signs of maturity and improvement. If he stays true to that trajectory only good things will come from that.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

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#1703080 - 12/06/19 11:39 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Swish]
Rishuz Offline

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Originally Posted By: Swish
Its the truth.

And absolutely relevant.

We drafted a guy half the board is either the same height or taller then, and hes not even athletic.

Honestly i rather have back manziel. The honeymoon with baker is beyond over.

He needs to perform, because its looking like we drafted the wrong guy.


It's not relevant. It was a dumb comment. But not as dumb as the Manziel one. You really doubled down there.

But I get your frustration because I'm there too. And I've made plenty of dumb comments about Baker over the last couple of weeks myself because I am sick and tired of losing and guys not coming through. That much we can agree on. I think Baker is a loser. Not at life, at football. He's just not a winner. 2 seasons, no playoff appearances. An absolute gift of a schedule this year. I mean the NFL was handing the playoffs to us. Two brutal losses to third string QBs where those third string QBs outplayed him. A plethora of weapons that he can't figure out how to get the ball to. Delivering exactly one game winning drive against Buffalo after he got lucky on a call reversal where he turned the ball over and Buffalo got a TD. He gets so tight when we need him the most. That's the very definition of loser in sports.

Get us a winner. Somebody please, get us a winner. Tired of this crap. Baker is going to beat up on a weakling this week and all the Baker supporters are going to come in here flapping their wings. I will stress again ... it's MEANINGLESS. MEANINGLESS. MEANINGLESS. Baker thrives on the weak and when things are MEANINGLESS.

Win some damn games. Make the playoffs. Stop sucking. Deliver in the clutch. Especially against teams you are supposed to beat.

I don't think Baker has the clutch gene. The "I will rip your heart out I want to win so bad" gene.

Nope, you better build up the team around him. We have another Jarad Goff here. Your GM and coach better be on point. Are they? Freddie looks to be a mess and Dorsey has nearly undone every good thing he had done when he took over.

What a cluster.

/emotional, dumb comments (but I stand by them)

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#1703092 - 12/06/19 11:55 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Rishuz]
oobernoober Offline

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To say he lost to 2 3rd string QBs is being being disingenuous at best. The Denver guy sat back there and had all day to throw. Our crack defensive coaching staff elected to not blitz a guy starting his first NFL game.

Similarly, Duck was facing our D in its undermanned state. We did not harass him nearly enough. Our D folded.

Baker didn't play well, and he has had bouts of loser-itis, but our D were the prime losers in those 2 games.
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#1703094 - 12/06/19 11:59 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: oobernoober]
Rishuz Offline

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Baker had plenty of opportunities to deliver in both games. He didn't. You go as your QB goes.

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#1703097 - 12/06/19 12:02 PM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Rishuz]
Hammer Offline
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Absolute gift of a schedule - please. Probably one of THE toughest schedule in football, but you go with that. SEA, LAR, SF, BAL (2), NE, BUF, PIT (2), TEN.

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#1703098 - 12/06/19 12:03 PM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: oobernoober]
PitDAWG Offline

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Not only that, their RB Lindsay had 9 carries for 92 yards and a TD. Their no name WR Fant had 115 yards on 3 receptions and a TD. Baker needs to play better on defense!
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1703100 - 12/06/19 12:05 PM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: PitDAWG]
Hammer Offline
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Right - better take a look at the fantastic D we were supposed to have. Losses to both DEN and PIT was on their D, not Baker.

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#1703102 - 12/06/19 12:08 PM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Hammer]
PitDAWG Offline

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People bought into a bunch of hype and are now looking for scapegoats to blame that on.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1703169 - 12/06/19 02:27 PM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Rishuz]
bonefish Offline

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Classic overreaction to losing.

Find someone to blame and lay it all on them.

Baker has been far from perfection. He has been inconsistent. When all the factors are looked at. Understandable.

There are a lot of things at play here.

To lay this all on Baker is absurd. He does need to share some of the blame.

Calling Baker a loser. Wow.

Have at it. If that is how you feel.

He is going to be the Browns quarterback for the foreseeable future.

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#1703262 - 12/06/19 07:14 PM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: bonefish]
Swish Offline

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Originally Posted By: bonefish



He is going to be the Browns quarterback for the foreseeable future.


So was:

Couch
Holcomb
DA
Quinn
Manziel
And Kizer.

Ill believe it when I see it.
_________________________
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.

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#1703265 - 12/06/19 07:28 PM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: PitDAWG]
DeisleDawg Offline

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Quote:
People bought into a bunch of hype and are now looking for scapegoats to blame that on.




Your right..including the Coaches and Players on the Browns team..

They are the ones who should have been practicing and working their asses off to prove their worth..

But they didn't.. It isn't or ever will be the fans fault for a team to fall victim to the Hype.


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#1703286 - 12/06/19 09:41 PM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: bonefish]
Rishuz Offline

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Baker is a loser. Prove me wrong. I'm listening.

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#1703299 - 12/06/19 11:06 PM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Rishuz]
bonefish Offline

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You are entitled to your opinion.

As am I and I think you are dead wrong.

You are welcome to pull out every stat you please.

My opinion is based upon what I see and what I have seen.

That is all.

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#1703300 - 12/06/19 11:35 PM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Rishuz]
OldColdDawg Offline

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Originally Posted By: Rishuz
Baker is a loser. Prove me wrong. I'm listening.


I refuse to believe this. He has not been good this year, I'll give you that. But last year Baker was the best in that class and showed he has what it takes to be very good. I also don't think he's a loser because his background story just doesn't show that at all. The walk ons, his records, his rookie NFL season... None of that says loser. Prove me wrong. I'm listening.

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#1703301 - 12/06/19 11:39 PM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Dawg Duty]
EveDawg Online   content

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I think Baker is dealing with a lot of pressure he didn't have last year. Because of all the hype.

You need pressure to make diamonds.

Give him some time.

He is playing very forced and uptight.

When he played an "Easy" team (Miami) look at how much he relaxed and was his old self. He just needs to learn to relax.

I predict he will have a good game against Cincy also, for the same reason.
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#1703306 - 12/06/19 11:55 PM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Rishuz]
Baker_Dawg Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rishuz
Baker is a loser. Prove me wrong. I'm listening.


This is so asinine. Believe this if Lamar was drafted by Cleveland into the same situation he would not be an mvp candidate. Coaching and the organization mean everything. Being the last top qb picked in the draft was the best thing that ever happened to him.

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#1703326 - 12/07/19 08:18 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Rishuz]
devicedawg Offline

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Originally Posted By: Rishuz
Baker is a loser. Prove me wrong. I'm listening.



2 years ago we finished the season 0-16. The year before that we won 1 game. Baker becomes our quarterback and we were in playoff contention last December and this December and you think he's the one holding us back?

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#1703329 - 12/07/19 08:36 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Dawg Duty]
DaddyDawg Offline
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I'm a Texas fan but I have to say Id rather have Baker cause Lamar wont keep healthy with his playing style.
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#1703330 - 12/07/19 08:36 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: devicedawg]
mgh888 Online   content

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Originally Posted By: devicedawg
Originally Posted By: Rishuz
Baker is a loser. Prove me wrong. I'm listening.



2 years ago we finished the season 0-16. The year before that we won 1 game. Baker becomes our quarterback and we were in playoff contention last December and this December and you think he's the one holding us back?


I agree with your sentiments - though this year I think it'd be fairer to say we were mathematically in the play off hunt, I never felt we were contenders after the loss to Denver. The early season losses in games we could have won, Baker played badly and was 100% part of the issue, but there were many many other issues going on, the biggest of which was pee poor coaching, play calling and game management against Seattle and the Rams.


Edited by mgh888 (12/07/19 08:37 AM)

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#1703362 - 12/07/19 10:55 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Swish]
Rishuz Offline

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Originally Posted By: Swish
Originally Posted By: bonefish



He is going to be the Browns quarterback for the foreseeable future.


So was:

Couch
Holcomb
DA
Quinn
Manziel
And Kizer.

Ill believe it when I see it.


This.

Baker gets off to a rough start next year or gets hurt early and you still don't have the answer to the question whether he's the guy or not and all bets are off. And a new coach will always want his guy as well.

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#1703366 - 12/07/19 11:03 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: devicedawg]
Rishuz Offline

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Originally Posted By: devicedawg
Originally Posted By: Rishuz
Baker is a loser. Prove me wrong. I'm listening.



2 years ago we finished the season 0-16. The year before that we won 1 game. Baker becomes our quarterback and we were in playoff contention last December and this December and you think he's the one holding us back?


Last year he was playing with house money, no pressure, and beating up on the dregs of the league. Anytime he faced anyone decent, he played poorly and the Browns lost. He had a chance to deliver against Balt and threw a pick on his attempt at a game winning drive. He missed a wide open out route to Landry for a first on that same drive. A simple throw that any QB should make especially one known for accuracy. But he got tight on that drive. It was a microcosm of what was to come this season.

There are numerous examples this year. We all know them. But pressure, expectations, and playing multiple good teams resulted in a 2-6 start. No more house money. No more it's just his rookie year.

2 seasons, no playoff appearances.

Winners win. Losers don't.

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#1703369 - 12/07/19 11:09 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: DeisleDawg]
PitDAWG Offline

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Originally Posted By: DeisleDawg
Your right..including the Coaches and Players on the Browns team..

They are the ones who should have been practicing and working their asses off to prove their worth..

But they didn't.. It isn't or ever will be the fans fault for a team to fall victim to the Hype.


With the exception of OBJ, who certainly looked disengaged early on, what proof do you have, other than your emotional response, that players weren't working their asses off?

And secondly, then whose fault is it fans bought into the hype? Some of us were telling people we had a first time HC. And not just a first time NFL HC, but a man who had never been a HC at any level. Some of us explained that we had pretty much an entire new coaching staff. An entire new D, and entire new O.

That all of this would take time to gel. That we may very well start off poorly. Both sides of the possible scenario were plainly pointed out. So why is it someone elses fault when certain fans ignored one side and believed the other side?
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1703373 - 12/07/19 11:18 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Rishuz]
mgh888 Online   content

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Originally Posted By: Rishuz
Originally Posted By: devicedawg
Originally Posted By: Rishuz
Baker is a loser. Prove me wrong. I'm listening.



2 years ago we finished the season 0-16. The year before that we won 1 game. Baker becomes our quarterback and we were in playoff contention last December and this December and you think he's the one holding us back?


Last year he was playing with house money, no pressure, and beating up on the dregs of the league. Anytime he faced anyone decent, he played poorly and the Browns lost. He had a chance to deliver against Balt and threw a pick on his attempt at a game winning drive. He missed a wide open out route to Landry for a first on that same drive. A simple throw that any QB should make especially one known for accuracy. But he got tight on that drive. It was a microcosm of what was to come this ssason.

There are numerous examples this year. We all know them. But pressure, expectations, and playing multiple good teams resulted in a 2-6 start. No more house money. No more it's just his rookie year.

2 seasons, no playoff appearances.

Winners win. Losers don't.


Over simplification - knee jerk - agenda driven reaction imo. Pretty simple.

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#1703374 - 12/07/19 11:19 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: mgh888]
Rishuz Offline

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I'm not surprised you feel that way.

Message to Baker and the Browns...start winning.

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#1703377 - 12/07/19 11:20 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: mgh888]
Rishuz Offline

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I'll also ask...what is my agenda?

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#1703381 - 12/07/19 11:30 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Rishuz]
PitDAWG Offline

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Loc: Smyrna, TN.
Well they say a cyclops only has one eye and can only focus on one thing. We can start there. Expand your horizons.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1703387 - 12/07/19 11:48 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: mgh888]
bonefish Offline

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Rishuz has his opinion. Clearly based upon Baker versus teams not Browns versus teams.

The only opinion that matters is his coaches and teammates. People who have gotten to this point with Baker on a daily basis. People who practice with him and attend meetings with him. People who are witness to what he can do.

Listen to Monken. He has no doubt about Baker. He is not the type guy who flatters for effect. And Rishuz knows? What he really knows is based upon limited information. That is not a dig on him. We all are limited in what we know.

My issue is proclaiming Baker a loser.

He is in second year. Playing with a new head coach and OC in their first year.

Some perspective is needed. Look at the careers of many great quarterbacks. Many started out poorly. Some sat for three years before they even played.

So calling Baker a loser when he has not even played two full seasons? Lack of perspective.

In addition you don't get to where he has if you were a loser.

You don't win the Heisman. You don't win the games he won. You don't have the numbers he has produced. And you certainly don't have the reputation Baker has a leader and teammate.

So Rishuz is welcome to believe what he wants.

It just really has no meaning.

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#1703599 - 12/08/19 12:31 PM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: Rishuz]
oobernoober Offline

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Originally Posted By: Rishuz
Originally Posted By: Swish
Originally Posted By: bonefish



He is going to be the Browns quarterback for the foreseeable future.


So was:

Couch
Holcomb
DA
Quinn
Manziel
And Kizer.

Ill believe it when I see it.


This.

Baker gets off to a rough start next year or gets hurt early and you still don't have the answer to the question whether he's the guy or not and all bets are off. And a new coach will always want his guy as well.


I think this is one of the fairest "harsh criticisms" you'll hear. I totally agree that this off-season will be make or break for a few people.

Baker has been playing better, so we know he's able to improve. He's all but cured the "roll right every play" issue, and his ugly turnover tendency has gone way down. That's great, but if he comes out next season stinking it up again.... we can't have him constantly working his way out of regressions.

Freddie has to run an effective off-season. He has to show he can actually learn from his mistakes, and promote a focused environment for the team. I also think an off-season would do wonders for his scheme and play sheet.

Dorsey has a couple areas he needs to a address hard (OT, TE) and a couple that need some help (FS, FB, LB).

I have confidence Dorsey can get it done. I'm hopeful for Baker, but I have doubts with Freddie admitting fault and fixing his issues.
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#1704604 - 12/08/19 04:33 PM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: oobernoober]
Rishuz Offline

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You simply can't proceed with Freddie if you're committing to Baker.

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#1704883 - 12/09/19 08:33 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: bonefish]
rastanplan Offline

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Posts: 2193
Originally Posted By: bonefish

Rishuz has his opinion. Clearly based upon Baker versus teams not Browns versus teams.

The only opinion that matters is his coaches and teammates. People who have gotten to this point with Baker on a daily basis. People who practice with him and attend meetings with him. People who are witness to what he can do.

Listen to Monken. He has no doubt about Baker. He is not the type guy who flatters for effect. And Rishuz knows? What he really knows is based upon limited information. That is not a dig on him. We all are limited in what we know.

My issue is proclaiming Baker a loser.

He is in second year. Playing with a new head coach and OC in their first year.

Some perspective is needed. Look at the careers of many great quarterbacks. Many started out poorly. Some sat for three years before they even played.

So calling Baker a loser when he has not even played two full seasons? Lack of perspective.

In addition you don't get to where he has if you were a loser.

You don't win the Heisman. You don't win the games he won. You don't have the numbers he has produced. And you certainly don't have the reputation Baker has a leader and teammate.

So Rishuz is welcome to believe what he wants.

It just really has no meaning.


Baker is not a loser, he is just not a winner too...

And I was under the impression one of the major reasons why we drafted him was because he was a winner...

That and his accuracy,so when he shows neither, where do we stand?

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#1704895 - 12/09/19 09:22 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: rastanplan]
devicedawg Offline

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Can someone explain to me the whole Baker is not a winner thing?

Baker WON a state championship with his high school team.

Baker went out and WON the starting job in college as a walk on.

Baker WON the Heisman as the only walk-on to ever do so.

Baker WON 34 games as the quarterback at Oklahoma in 3 seasons. Coupled with only 6 losses.

He's WON a college bowl game against a tough SEC defensive team.

He led his team to the college football playoffs and his offense scored more points (48) than the team gave up in any game the last decade. Granted he didn't win the national championship, but where is Lamar's national championship ring? Or Josh Allen's? Or Sam Darnold's?

Baker went out and became the #1 pick in the NFL draft.

Baker's WON 13 games for the Browns in the past 2 seasons when the Browns have only won 11 games the 4 previous seasons.

Where exactly am I missing Baker is "not a winner?"


This is why we can't have nice things. We get good talented players and the fans try to run them out of town.

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#1704926 - 12/09/19 10:37 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: devicedawg]
rastanplan Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 03/08/13
Posts: 2193
Originally Posted By: devicedawg
Can someone explain to me the whole Baker is not a winner thing?

Baker WON a state championship with his high school team.

Baker went out and WON the starting job in college as a walk on.

Baker WON the Heisman as the only walk-on to ever do so.

Baker WON 34 games as the quarterback at Oklahoma in 3 seasons. Coupled with only 6 losses.

He's WON a college bowl game against a tough SEC defensive team.

He led his team to the college football playoffs and his offense scored more points (48) than the team gave up in any game the last decade. Granted he didn't win the national championship, but where is Lamar's national championship ring? Or Josh Allen's? Or Sam Darnold's?

Baker went out and became the #1 pick in the NFL draft.

Baker's WON 13 games for the Browns in the past 2 seasons when the Browns have only won 11 games the 4 previous seasons.

Where exactly am I missing Baker is "not a winner?"


This is why we can't have nice things. We get good talented players and the fans try to run them out of town.


I think you answered it yourself, he won a state championship with his high school.

Baker's record in college is similar to other Qb's in Oklahoma.

So far we have seen that Baker is good playing against bad teams and bad playing against good teams. He also plays well when the team is playing well, and plays bad when bad when the team is struggling.

He had enough chances to win some games and he simply not only couldn't but ended up making mistakes, so all in all not a winner in my book.

He is also far from being our best O player and honestly I think he will struggle accepting the fact that he is not the star here.


Edited by rastanplan (12/09/19 10:40 AM)

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#1704943 - 12/09/19 10:53 AM Re: Baker or Lamar [Re: rastanplan]
devicedawg Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 03/05/13
Posts: 4548
Huh?

Leading the browns to back to back 7 win seasons (most likely) is unprecedented. Its happened once since '99.

There aren't many quarterbacks in the league who could do that for this franchise.

We aren't being held back Baker, if anything we are holding him back.

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