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I'd have to go back and find them, but I think I remember someone posting stats about Chubb and Hunt running with a fullback. Chubb's numbers were I believe the same either way, but Hunt was better with a fullback.


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Asking a TE to play fullback is like asking a SS to cover in the slot.
If they keep 8 OL, there is no reason not to keep one fullback.

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Originally Posted By: THROW LONG
Asking a TE to play fullback is like asking a SS to cover in the slot.
If they keep 8 OL, there is no reason not to keep one fullback.


I have explained why not to keep a fullback. It's a position, not a player. Keep 9 Olinemen. Keep an extra actual running back. Keep another wide receiver.


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https://dawgpounddaily.com/2021/07/31/cleveland-browns-andy-janovich/

within this article:

"Janovich was used for 171 offensive snaps last season, as well as another 222 on special teams. Because he was used primarily as a blocker, he had very few touches — four, to be exact. He had two receptions in five targets, and also had two rushing attempts and a grand total of 17 yards. But that really doesn’t matter. He was used for his blocking, and he filled his role very well."

I'm not saying you are wrong, but it's clearly not as cut and dry as you make it sound..

I wonder what Chubb and Hunt would say on the subject.

Anyway, I don't think I wanna see Hunt as a lead blocker. He's too valuable


Last edited by Damanshot; 08/11/21 09:20 AM.

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IIRC, Janovich started out the year with heavy use, but that kind of trailed off over the course of the year.

My point being... I usually don't agree with Ballpeen's view of FBs, and especially when we have a good one on the roster already. But with the stupid amount of talent we have and the challenge we have to get them all touches, I'd prefer not to see a Higgins or a Bryant get taken off the field for a FB. First step to getting touches is being on the field.


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A glance at the roster, the Browns have 9 OL on their team, not one of the main 5 starters from 2020 or named Kendall Lamm, (left for the Titans), Chris Hubbard, or Nick Harris, the main fill ins from 2020.

3 tackles, 1 center, 5 guards. If the Browns send them all to waivers, and then protect on the PS, the likely hood that all 9 would get poached to other teams rosters is very little.
The Browns have 2 fullbacks, (I didn't even look), from 2020, one who was active during the season.
If the Browns send them both to waivers and then protect on the PS, the likely hood that both would get picked up by any 2 of the 32 teams and then they could not help your team anytime in the future.
is slightly more.


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https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JanoAn00/fantasy/2020

It's not the downward trend I was expecting, but his heavier usage was definitely in the first half of the season. His usage seems more tied to game's outcomes. Heavy FB usage seems to correlate to wins (especially lopsided ones).


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6 wide receivers:
4 tailbacks:
4 tight ends
2 quarterbacks
8 offensive linemen

Plus one spot. 25.

Spot is OL-9, or FB-1, or remove a tailback, tailbacks only 3. etc.

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our run game is such a big part of our team character. I think we will continue to carry a FB especially if he contributes to ST. just guessing of course but think we will jmho


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Originally Posted By: Damanshot
https://dawgpounddaily.com/2021/07/31/cleveland-browns-andy-janovich/

within this article:

"Janovich was used for 171 offensive snaps last season, as well as another 222 on special teams. Because he was used primarily as a blocker, he had very few touches — four, to be exact. He had two receptions in five targets, and also had two rushing attempts and a grand total of 17 yards. But that really doesn’t matter. He was used for his blocking, and he filled his role very well."

I'm not saying you are wrong, but it's clearly not as cut and dry as you make it sound..

I wonder what Chubb and Hunt would say on the subject.

Anyway, I don't think I wanna see Hunt as a lead blocker. He's too valuable




Let's see, a quick check on Bakers and Keenums snap counts the number is 1062 snaps. Snaps are plays. I am sure a few other players may have taken a snap or 3, but the number doesn't really matter.


So Janovich played 1.63% of the plays. About 11 snaps a game.

So, as for special teams, I don't recall Jano being mentioned as a pro bowl type special teams player. I don't even recall much of his special teams play, so in my book it is safe to assume someone else could easily fill his special teams role.

As for Hunt being a lead blocker, I wasn't advocating that. I said he would do fine if asked. Not long ago I remember people pimping his block to get Baker around the corner for a critical 1st down. I do advocate playing a TE or back-up guard in that role...Speed isn't all that critical as a lead block seeing that most of the blocks are just beyond the LOS.

As you said, he was used as a blocker, so guards know how to block. TE's know how to block. Jano had 2 recptions. I don't think that would be hard to replace, do you? Of course not. Heck, I'd bet that Bitonio could catch 2 of 5 chances.

If the guy was totaling even a few hundred yards on the ground and maybe 20 receptions, ok, maybe that is worth a spot even if I wouldn't keep one at that level.

I just don't understand what some people see in the position that makes you think it is worth a roster spot. Everything Jano does could be done by someone else, freeing up a roster position.

Yes, I know Stefanski likes the position so it probably stays. Nobody is perfect.


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This lands somewhere between 'means nothing' and 'a big deal', but Janovich did have a (as in 1) big grab on attempted onside kick that iced a game.


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Cool, he secured a bouncing ball.


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Lol... just come here from PP? Being deliberately obtuse rarely flies there, much less here.

Yes, he secured a bouncing ball while getting hammered by the opposing ST players to prevent them from getting a potentially game-winning extra drive on our then-porous defense.

So while he's not an all-pro, he's still made plays. Plus KS seems to appreciate what he brings.


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Not that they ever would, but it they ever did,
Do NOT let the steelers waive Quincy Roche and not put a claim in for him, his pass rush ceiling, and vs the run too.

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Originally Posted By: oobernoober
Lol... just come here from PP? Being deliberately obtuse rarely flies there, much less here.

Yes, he secured a bouncing ball while getting hammered by the opposing ST players to prevent them from getting a potentially game-winning extra drive on our then-porous defense.

So while he's not an all-pro, he's still made plays. Plus KS seems to appreciate what he brings.


I am not being obtuse. He made a play. I am proud of him. Are we going to keep him for being a fullback or special teams ace?

I don't think it is because of outstanding ST play.

I have given the case for why his fullback play shouldn't be enough to warrant a roster spot. If you can make a case for his special teams play, I am all ears. I value great special teamers and can see reserving a roster spot for those guys much like we kept Cribbs for his special teams play..and no, he doesn't have to have the same impact that Cribbs had, at least in the return part.


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Originally Posted By: Ballpeen
Originally Posted By: Damanshot
https://dawgpounddaily.com/2021/07/31/cleveland-browns-andy-janovich/

within this article:

"Janovich was used for 171 offensive snaps last season, as well as another 222 on special teams. Because he was used primarily as a blocker, he had very few touches — four, to be exact. He had two receptions in five targets, and also had two rushing attempts and a grand total of 17 yards. But that really doesn’t matter. He was used for his blocking, and he filled his role very well."

I'm not saying you are wrong, but it's clearly not as cut and dry as you make it sound..

I wonder what Chubb and Hunt would say on the subject.

Anyway, I don't think I wanna see Hunt as a lead blocker. He's too valuable




Let's see, a quick check on Bakers and Keenums snap counts the number is 1062 snaps. Snaps are plays. I am sure a few other players may have taken a snap or 3, but the number doesn't really matter.


So Janovich played 1.63% of the plays. About 11 snaps a game.

So, as for special teams, I don't recall Jano being mentioned as a pro bowl type special teams player. I don't even recall much of his special teams play, so in my book it is safe to assume someone else could easily fill his special teams role.


Your decimal point is off in your math. Janovich played 16% of the total snaps on offense, not 1.6%.

Janovich was also in for 222 ST plays or 52%.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JanoAn00.htm

And...

https://www.brownsnation.com/pff-ranks-browns-offensive-line-1-in-2020-final-rankings/

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It's actually 16%, not 1+%. Still not a huge participation, but if you add in special teams, you can start to build a case for his inclusion on the final roster.

Stefanski likes to use a FB.. I don't think deleting the position is being considered.

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I don't know about that. I mean I see your point and you've been on that bandwagon for some time now. Yet for some reason Stefanski saw a reason and a need to keep a FB on the roster last year and has brought in a second one to compete with him during training camp this season. I'm going to have to trust him on his reasoning for that.

Now the reason could be that Hunt looks better with a FB and the future of Chubb staying here was in question at the time. With the extension of Chubb we may see a roster without a FB on it this year. Who knows?

But the fact that Stefanski not only kept a FB on the roster here last year but also kept one on the roster in Minnesota tells me he feels stronger about having a FB than you do.


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Per posts above, he apparently does have a good passblocking rating when in at fullback, and he has made plays when called upon in STs. KS has gone on record as liking the FB role (and pulled 'his guy', Janovich, from MN).


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My bad on the 1.6%...I still think it boils down to asset allocation. I have also said the guy will probably be here since Stefanski for some reason likes fullbacks.

I just don't see the point of keeping a guy who as a starter plays 16% of the plays, gains 17 yards rushing on the season and catches a couple of passes.

I see it as asset allocation. By the time camp ends somebody is going to be cut who we all wonder what in the world were we thinking, and chalk it up as a numbers deal.

You need look no further than that fullback sitting down on the end of the bench.

JMO


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j/c

What do our playaction numbers look like with a FB vs without a FB? Opposing teams are probably more likely to sell out to stop the run with a FB on the field, opening up chances for chunk plays on playaction. Having the FB on the field also can present difficult choices in defensive personnel packages.

I could see the team going either way at FB. It is nice to be able to run even when the opponent knows you are going to run. You don't necessarily need a FB to do that, but we do have a pretty good one.


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Quote:
I just don't see the point of keeping a guy who as a starter plays 16% of the plays, gains 17 yards rushing on the season and catches a couple of passes.

I see it as asset allocation. By the time camp ends somebody is going to be cut who we all wonder what in the world were we thinking, and chalk it up as a numbers deal.


Disagree pretty strongly here. 16% of offensive plays and 52% of teams plays is not insignificant. Expecially if you are judging by what a particular player/position is going to contribute to team success this year.

Which do you predict will have a greater impact on our 2021 season?
Janovich or our 4th guard?
Janovich or our 4th TE?

And that's just offense...bottom of the roster LBs, CBs, and even DEs are going to be less impactful.

In addition, you can safely stash those sorts of players on the practice squad much more easily than a starting calibre FB.

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https://player.fm/series/giants-huddle-n...2wWMc8Jv5eGkFrq

I'm not sure if that link, is the audio I listened to.
If it is. (Brian Baldinger joins the giants huddle) aug. 11 2021.

So I was listening to a giants show, because of the fight and the Browns scrimmage them in one week, and, Bam
at the 5:50 Six minute mark until 8 minutes they ask this guy about a fullback.

He really makes a case for what benefits there are to having a fullback. points, for recap.
1. Analytics say Fb is a dinosaur but he doesn't agree.
"If you can't convert 3rd and 1, 4th and 1, 4th and goal, those plays; you lose games"
" Fullback helps you in those situations he is going to be an every down special teamer"
" Short yardage, goal to go, when you run the 4:00 minute offense, fullback helps."

" Good ones, (fb's) in this league, clean up things, when things go wrong up front" (the OL), they find the other color and plug.
He's a fan, sees the value, says " A fullback adds toughness to your offense."

Some team and coach, has "always had a fullback, and it's important to be multiple in what you do and how you attack, a way to gameplan week in and week out."
He mentions some Linebackers don't deal well when faced with a fullback, and fullbacks are a good blitz picker upper.

later he says, all the guys in Cleveland are good blitz picker uppers.

( I especially think the point about being able to do different looks with the offenseive gameplan is a strong argument for keeping a fullback.)


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Originally Posted By: Ballpeen
My bad on the 1.6%...I still think it boils down to asset allocation. I have also said the guy will probably be here since Stefanski for some reason likes fullbacks.

I just don't see the point of keeping a guy who as a starter plays 16% of the plays, gains 17 yards rushing on the season and catches a couple of passes.

I see it as asset allocation. By the time camp ends somebody is going to be cut who we all wonder what in the world were we thinking, and chalk it up as a numbers deal.

You need look no further than that fullback sitting down on the end of the bench.

JMO

Who are you worried about losing on the offense because the fullback sticks, because if I were worried about losing a playmaker I could see moreso your point.
I figure, the player out would be OL-9 and OL-9-10-and 11, (mostly similar), they'll try to stash on PS with a likelihood at least 2 clear waivers.
For the Wrs. Take the top 4 names, and pick 3.
Put the 4th name into a 6 way battle for WR 3-6 and pick 3.
JoJo Natson, Khaderal Hodge, Anthony Schwartz, Demetric Felton, D'Ernest Johnson, pick 4, they only have to cut one. and the fullback can stay,
or Go to 3 Tight ends, instead of 4 and they can all stay, including the fullback.
Eventually, if they have, DPJ, and Higgins, and Jojo, and Schwartz, and Jamarcus Bradley, and Hollins, and Ryan Switzer, you'll have 7 guys doing the same things, playing Wr 3 and Wr 4. They can keep 4 of them, (plus Landry and OBJ), that's pretty good.
and if, Demetric Felton or D'Ernest Johnson aren't good enough to make this roster they won't bottom line, but they can stay too, if they keep 6 Wrs. (and still have the Fb)

Then Stephen Carlson TE 4, didn't make many plays, but all 4 TE's played in all 16 games or 15, (from memory of the reference page) last year, and that makes me think there is a use for keeping 4 TEs.

I don't know who to be afraid of losing by numbers. (That is 25 on offense), 25 on Offense, 25 on Defense, 3 special teams pretty standard. ACH. anything could happen.


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IIRC, peen's issue with FB (peen, feel free to correct me wherever I'm wrong) is not so much with the FB position, but moreso with the idea that you have to have a designated body filling that role. If it were his decision, he wouldn't have Janovich on the roster, but when the play calls for a FB in the formation, he'd grab a guard or TE off the bench and throw him in there.


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The Browns could do the unthinkable, trade player x for a higher draft pick, or value today than the future expected compensatory pick, or option 3 imagine player x remains a Brown. (meltdown city).
Keep the team together don't mortgage 2021.


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Originally Posted By: oobernoober
IIRC, Janovich started out the year with heavy use, but that kind of trailed off over the course of the year.

My point being... I usually don't agree with Ballpeen's view of FBs, and especially when we have a good one on the roster already. But with the stupid amount of talent we have and the challenge we have to get them all touches, I'd prefer not to see a Higgins or a Bryant get taken off the field for a FB. First step to getting touches is being on the field.



I hear what you and Peen are saying and like I said, I can't find major fault with it.

It wouldn't be Higgins that gets taken off the field. it would be swartz or Hodge5


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I don't think it would be Schwartz or Hodge, unless people are injured and out.

If Jano is on the field, it would be with another back. I don't see any situation where Chubb and Hunt or on the bench and the FB is in the game.

In a run situation, we are going to have at least 1 TE on the field, so that leaves 2 receivers. Higgins or DPJ are the guys on the bench.

I suppose we might run a trick'em play and have Jano in then try to pass him the ball. He did catch 2 footballs last season., so maybe a TE wouldn't be in the game, but that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I know you aren't disagreeing, so don't think I am getting on you or something like that.


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Hollins, Bradley, Higgins, DPJ..l I like hearing about the WR depth. Remember how awful that position had been forever


"First down inside the 10. A score here likely puts us in the Super Bowl. Landry is far to the left as Hooper settles into the slot. OBJ is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Hunt are split in the backfield as Baker takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted By: Dawgs4Life
Hollins, Bradley, Higgins, DPJ..l I like hearing about the WR depth. Remember how awful that position had been forever?


Greg Little and Mohammed Massaquoi remember.


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I've never been a fan of the "LOOK AT ME" moments that players do in the modern game, poses, dances, etc. One of the reasons I love Nick Chubb, he doesn't do that. Like Jim Brown says, act like you've been there before.

Greg Little was the worst! He would miss or drop 3-4 catchable passes in a row, then when he finally caught one, he would get up and strike his 'Usain Bolt' pose. "LOOK AT ME!"


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Yep, Chubb is the consummate professional in that respect. I like OBJ but did not like his watch or shoes distractions nor do I care much for his one-handed grabs all the time. I just want a star like OBJ to show up every week and perform at an extremely high level. Sure, have fun playing, but cut the silliness and strive to be the guy that has been there before. Then maybe after you give us a big consistent dose of that OBJ Super Star, a little diva crap would be more tolerable.

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What's a Alexander Hollins???????????


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After watching this team play last night, I haven't a clue how to pair down the roster the backups played outstanding ball and there are some keepers in that crew for sure.

My impression of the bottom of this roster is WOW.


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Originally Posted By: Brown to the Bone
After watching this team play last night, I haven't a clue how to pair down the roster the backups played outstanding ball and there are some keepers in that crew for sure.

My impression of the bottom of this roster is WOW.


No doubt we have some tough decisions looming.

This year, when people scream, "Why did we cut him!!", they will probably have a legit argument.

The tax you pay when you have a good team.


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Anyone have info on this TE that played in the fourth Quarter . Davis ? Caught my eye .

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Originally Posted By: SuperBrown

What's a Alexander Hollins???????????

A trap for the grammar police?

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quote " Any info on TE Davis 4th qtr."
Connor Davis TE was a big bodied TE the Browns signed off the Jets earlier this summer, 6'8 iirc.

The Browns waived another TE before they signed him, Jordan Franks or ? (Kyle Markaway), then, I thought I saw the waived Te from earlier in the summer, playing in place of #4 TE Stephen Carlson after Carlson got hurt while making a catch out of the backfield delayed like a rb dump off,
he, Carlson was on the sideline angry with pain, seated, and they later mentioned his knee on the broadcast.
Oh now I remember. Connor Davis, TE had 2 things, he was tall and he had a super number in the long jump.

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Originally Posted By: OldColdDawg
Yep, Chubb is the consummate professional in that respect. I like OBJ but did not like his watch or shoes distractions nor do I care much for his one-handed grabs all the time. I just want a star like OBJ to show up every week and perform at an extremely high level. Sure, have fun playing, but cut the silliness and strive to be the guy that has been there before. Then maybe after you give us a big consistent dose of that OBJ Super Star, a little diva crap would be more tolerable.

When I read this ^ all I can think is, Who was or was there a player on the big red machine,(with an M in their name); baseball 1970's- who in the outfield would make one handed grabs when all the coaches told us to get under the ball and use 2 hands on the baseball glove. (Man I've gone way off the rails.) time to look it up. (they were excellent in that they didn't have errors in fielding for long periods of time.)


" You have to be able to throw the ball and throw the ball effectively in this league to keep up with the better football teams" Warren Moon. 1,8,12. Yes We Can Yes We Can!
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