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I remember thinking that JOK looked like he had potential in the game to do stuff well, but seemed like he looked really, really raw, which is understandable. I just hope the learning curve picks up.


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Oh for sure. No way those defensive cushions are acceptable late in the year, and even against good offenses. My HOPE for Woods' scheme, which we know will be mostly zone, is that guys reach a level of comfort where they can trust their eyes/instincts and make some big plays. i.e. Just because you play zone doesn't mean it cannot be aggressive. We have the speed to close, mostly. But early on, I'd rather they were conservative if they aren't sure about what they are seeing as a play develops.


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jc...

Last edited by mac; 09/16/21 11:31 AM.



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j/c

You can't have three turnovers, putting the ball in Mahomes hands and then turn around and try and lay the blame for the loss at the feet of the D.

In the first half the D held them to ten points. In the second half we had three turnovers and people act like that wasn't a huge contributing factor as to why our D gave up so many points. 90 degree weather you can't be forcing your defense to spend that much time on the field.

I'm not quite sure what people are thinking. I know what I'm thinking. I'm thinking they're using their emotions more than actually thinking this through. Sure the D needs work and needs to tighten up. But let's not pretend that our O didn't have as much or more to do with this loss than the D.


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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
j/c

You can't have three turnovers, putting the ball in Mahomes hands and then turn around and try and lay the blame for the loss at the feet of the D.

In the first half the D held them to ten points. In the second half we had three turnovers and people act like that wasn't a huge contributing factor as to why our D gave up so many points. 90 degree weather you can't be forcing your defense to spend that much time on the field.

I'm not quite sure what people are thinking. I know what I'm thinking. I'm thinking they're using their emotions more than actually thinking this through. Sure the D needs work and needs to tighten up. But let's not pretend that our O didn't have as much or more to do with this loss than the D.



THIS.

READ IT AGAIN.


22-10 was the Halftime score.
The Browns Defense had held the Chiefs to NINE POINTS in the entire first half. Our offense seemed to cruise down the field and into the endzone while they looked like they had to fight for every yard they got.

Three turnovers. One ended the game, and two gave them the go-ahead.
One was on an insanely short field and one was roughly at midfield. The short field put the Chiefs up by five. The midfield one kept us from putting seven on the board, and the way we were moving it on that drive, we weren't going away with less than three.

The defense's one major miscue was the Hail Mary "punt" to Hill on JJ3 that resulted in 7. It's a broken play by us and a GREAT play by them. That simply doesn't happen with the QB about to go down like that with any other QB/WR combo.

So, the vaunted Chiefs and we had a handful of major miscues that fed them points in all three phases, but because one of them was Defensive we put all the blame in that one box? That makes no sense. The scheme and calls were working for the opponent we were playing, despite it not looking the way people wanted it to look. Because of this defense, it DC, it's scheme, and its calls, we had this game LOCKED.... until a handful of mistakes unlocked it and handed it away, and make no mistake - we had this thing locked well enough that no SINGLE mistake could have undone it. It took all of them.


Note: we didn't lose because of the Refs, for once. We lost because individuals didn't do their jobs on four occasions. Individual failures.
That's it.


Edit: 22-10 was the halftime score. My bad, all points made stand as-is.

Last edited by PrplPplEater; 09/16/21 02:31 PM.

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Chiefs historically have been a second half team.. they make exceptional adjustments. There was no way they weren't going to score points. True that there is plenty of blame to go around, but letting a qb complete 75% of his passes and be in running for offensive player of the week and have a rating of 131 is not doing your job. And yes, scheme is an issue. TB gave everyone the blueprint to beat KC, and we didn't even attempt any of it. KC was the worst scenario to start a season with high expectations. It really puts a damper on everything when you lose. Screw the NFL for doing that. That being said, this week we have the chance to win and get back on track and hope to see them again in the playoffs. Bright side is this defense will not face another offense that talented the rest of the year. So there will be plenty of time to get things straight by playoffs. Just need everyone to stay healthy and for Berry to get us an MLB that doesn't suck. Cutting Wilson and just giving JOK the reps would be awesome. I rather live with growing pains of a guy with a high ceiling than watch wilson look like the worst LB in the nfl he is.


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My opinion has been from jump that if Wilson and Taki were still on this team there was still a lot of work to be done with this defense.

It's also my opinion that both of these players have failed at the most fundamental part of being a LB and that is tackling they both suck at it.

For that reason I would be happy to see either or both gone. Accountable is hard to see when they both are repeatedly put in a position to make a play and fail because they can't tackle.

Like everything nothing is always but LB's have to be good tacklers and they simply are NOT.


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jc..

Just where Joe Woods came up with this lame defensive scheme that allowed the Chiefs best receivers to run free in our secondary needs to be explained.

After all the upgrades in personnel to the defensive side and that was the best defensive scheme Woods could come up with???

In short, Woods may have exposed himself as anything but an elite DC. Andy Reid and Mahonnes feasted off of Woods "prevent defense" and hopefully Browns fans never see it again.

I located a couple of short videos showing more of Woods defense against the Chief's best receivers and we can see just how easy it was for the Chiefs to take advantage of Woods defense.

The Browns D against Tyreek Hill actually looked as though our middle LBer had the job of covering Hill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DogmoOs_y0I



This video is of Chiefs TE Kelce and how he exploited the Browns D.





Allowing the opponents best receivers to have a free release off of the LOS and space enough to run their pass routes without a Browns defensive defender touching them...it is a losing defense and shows that the Browns defensive coaching staff is not up to the task of producing a Champion caliber defensive unit.







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Not just me to recognize the pass coverage problems Joe Woods has. I may have been one of the first to recognize how poor the Browns pass defense was, but the more time fans and commentators took to actually study the video of the game, others saw the same issues I pointed out.

Joe Woods lame excuses put forward in the article below doesn't help explain just what kind of defense he attempted to run.

NO EXCUSES, "JOE"...fix what is wrong and do your part to win this week vs the Texans.



Browns defensive coordinator Joe Woods on defending the Chiefs: “You can’t cover them all”

Posted by Mike Florio on September 16, 2021, 5:54 PM EDT
LINK

The Browns nearly beat the Chiefs, but they didn’t come close to shutting down receiver Tyreek Hill, who caught 11 passes for 197 yards on Sunday. Browns defensive coordinator Joe Woods discussed the challenge of defending the Chiefs when meeting with reporters on Thursday.

“You can’t cover them all,” Woods said. “There are a lot of weapons out there so again, when you game plan, there are certain calls that take away certain things they do, but there may be some guys who get some one-on-ones. This is part of the game, but when you have a team that has so many weapons across the board, you just have to be very selective when you choose to double somebody.”

They didn’t double Hill nearly enough. Woods explained the biggest play of the day, a 75-yard catch-and-run in which safety Josh Johnson found himself trying to cover Hill alone.

“It was an empty formation so we were in a certain empty adjustment,” Woods said. “We had it covered, and we kind of adjusted it during the game so we had everything covered. [Patrick] Mahomes did a great job just staying alive. You saw the throw. He threw it up there, and it just came down. At the end of the day, they made more plays than we made, especially in critical situations.”

If the Browns hope to get past the Chiefs in a postseason rematch, they’ll need to be the one making more of the plays. That won’t be relevant until January. The Browns have to put a pin in their desire to finally beat the Chiefs, focusing instead on doing everything they can to get to that point.




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Originally Posted By: mac
Not just me to recognize the pass coverage problems Joe Woods has. I may have been one of the first to recognize how poor the Browns pass defense was, but the more time fans and commentators took to actually study the video of the game, others saw the same issues I pointed out.

Joe Woods lame excuses put forward in the article below doesn't help explain just what kind of defense he attempted to run.

NO EXCUSES, "JOE"...fix what is wrong and do your part to win this week vs the Texans.



Browns defensive coordinator Joe Woods on defending the Chiefs: “You can’t cover them all”

Posted by Mike Florio on September 16, 2021, 5:54 PM EDT
LINK

The Browns nearly beat the Chiefs, but they didn’t come close to shutting down receiver Tyreek Hill, who caught 11 passes for 197 yards on Sunday. Browns defensive coordinator Joe Woods discussed the challenge of defending the Chiefs when meeting with reporters on Thursday.

“You can’t cover them all,” Woods said. “There are a lot of weapons out there so again, when you game plan, there are certain calls that take away certain things they do, but there may be some guys who get some one-on-ones. This is part of the game, but when you have a team that has so many weapons across the board, you just have to be very selective when you choose to double somebody.”

They didn’t double Hill nearly enough. Woods explained the biggest play of the day, a 75-yard catch-and-run in which safety Josh Johnson found himself trying to cover Hill alone.

“It was an empty formation so we were in a certain empty adjustment,” Woods said. “We had it covered, and we kind of adjusted it during the game so we had everything covered. [Patrick] Mahomes did a great job just staying alive. You saw the throw. He threw it up there, and it just came down. At the end of the day, they made more plays than we made, especially in critical situations.”

If the Browns hope to get past the Chiefs in a postseason rematch, they’ll need to be the one making more of the plays. That won’t be relevant until January. The Browns have to put a pin in their desire to finally beat the Chiefs, focusing instead on doing everything they can to get to that point.


When the head guy in charge says something like Woods did there...you know they are in over their head.

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
j/c

You can't have three turnovers, putting the ball in Mahomes hands and then turn around and try and lay the blame for the loss at the feet of the D.

In the first half the D held them to ten points. In the second half we had three turnovers and people act like that wasn't a huge contributing factor as to why our D gave up so many points. 90 degree weather you can't be forcing your defense to spend that much time on the field.

I'm not quite sure what people are thinking. I know what I'm thinking. I'm thinking they're using their emotions more than actually thinking this through. Sure the D needs work and needs to tighten up. But let's not pretend that our O didn't have as much or more to do with this loss than the D.


That's a great and very fair point. I certainly didn't see it that way during and immediately after the game, but what you're saying is definitely fair.

I think I expected the D to look slow/disjointed at the start of the season and went from my assumptions.

Some of the assignments certain defenders had on certain plays were head-scratchers (Walker, as one of the slowest LBs we have, trying to cover Kelce was downright comical at times). Also, with the mismatch in the trenches being what it was, I felt we didn't have any sort of answer for Reid's adjustments. The Chiefs got enough out of their mismatches (pass-catchers) while I don't think we got enough out of our mismatches (translation: not enough sacks/fumbles).

I think your point about the offense sharing the blame (even though they overall played a helluva game) is very valid. That said, I do look for the D to tighten things up over the course of the next couple weeks and for them to get more opportunistic as they gel.


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I'd like to see us sign Reuben Foster. I feel we can use him.

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What I see as the next opponent we face with a very high powered O is the Cardinals. Seeing the difference between how we defend them verses how did did against the chiefs will tell me a lot.


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Originally Posted By: WSU Willie
Originally Posted By: mac
Not just me to recognize the pass coverage problems Joe Woods has. I may have been one of the first to recognize how poor the Browns pass defense was, but the more time fans and commentators took to actually study the video of the game, others saw the same issues I pointed out.

Joe Woods lame excuses put forward in the article below doesn't help explain just what kind of defense he attempted to run.

NO EXCUSES, "JOE"...fix what is wrong and do your part to win this week vs the Texans.



Browns defensive coordinator Joe Woods on defending the Chiefs: “You can’t cover them all”

Posted by Mike Florio on September 16, 2021, 5:54 PM EDT
LINK

The Browns nearly beat the Chiefs, but they didn’t come close to shutting down receiver Tyreek Hill, who caught 11 passes for 197 yards on Sunday. Browns defensive coordinator Joe Woods discussed the challenge of defending the Chiefs when meeting with reporters on Thursday.

“You can’t cover them all,” Woods said. “There are a lot of weapons out there so again, when you game plan, there are certain calls that take away certain things they do, but there may be some guys who get some one-on-ones. This is part of the game, but when you have a team that has so many weapons across the board, you just have to be very selective when you choose to double somebody.”

They didn’t double Hill nearly enough. Woods explained the biggest play of the day, a 75-yard catch-and-run in which safety Josh Johnson found himself trying to cover Hill alone.

“It was an empty formation so we were in a certain empty adjustment,” Woods said. “We had it covered, and we kind of adjusted it during the game so we had everything covered. [Patrick] Mahomes did a great job just staying alive. You saw the throw. He threw it up there, and it just came down. At the end of the day, they made more plays than we made, especially in critical situations.”

If the Browns hope to get past the Chiefs in a postseason rematch, they’ll need to be the one making more of the plays. That won’t be relevant until January. The Browns have to put a pin in their desire to finally beat the Chiefs, focusing instead on doing everything they can to get to that point.


When the head guy in charge says something like Woods did there...you know they are in over their head.



Normally I find myself in agreement with most of what you say Willie but this I can't sign up for.

I think no I know this defense will continue to evolve as the season goes on, and this seems to escape you based on you're reply to it.

In other words this is the very 1st game this unit had played together, while Woods did know the players he certainly didn't and still doesn't know how this unit will preform together as a team.

In truth Johnson had Hill covered if the ball had been thrown in front of Hill the outcome on that play would have been quite different. Hill slammed on the brakes and Johnson to that point in time had Hill well covered continued on. I believe the throw was actually pretty poor but Hill adjusted and Johnson did NOT.

This unit will get better you have to believe that at least?

What and when Woods calls coverages will change as well as he learns how his players can best fill out his calls in game situations.

The season IMO is about growth on any team and the Chiefs are a tough matchup for the very best in the NFL this defensive unit is truly brand new going against the best offense in the league and they did pretty well. They along with Woods need to do better, and they will. I guess that is my point.

The worst part about all of this were the mistakes, but mistakes can and will be fixed. We didn't lose this game because of Woods defense that is for sure.

If you expected them to perform at their peek of performances in the 1st go out of the gate I think you will likely always be disappointed. Take away any one of the plays that the Chiefs had go there way in the last 10 minutes and we leave KC with a W. In the long haul I truly believe that losing may be a blessing for everyone coaches players everyone.

There is IMO good losses this will be a good loss in the long haul, just you watch.

We can't lose reason because we didn't like the end result.

I feel pretty good about this team and I believe in the people who are putting the pieces together.

I have no desire to be a MMQB, these guys know what they are doing and by the time the Card's show up will be a much much better team especially on the defensive side of the ball.

I want to see that unit evolve and develop I think they are going to be great I really do but reason tells me the 1st go wasn't going to be their best that is still out there and they will find it.


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I believe people grossly underestimate how tough the NFL really is. I mean two to three mistakes decide most games. Mistakes are not simply turnovers. It can be penalties and poor play decisions.

With that said and if you think a team can walk into an opposing stadium with nine new defensive players and win without creating a turnover, I think you are being unrealistic. I respect your opinion if you think differently.

I thought the defense played well. Do I think they played up to their potential? Absolutely not. True, I like Coach Woods to be a little more aggressive. I don't think that is his M.O. Coach is very calculated. The more he gets comfortable the more we see. It's Ok. This defense is not supposed to be the shining star.

Also remember, most of last year the Browns used the opposing offense to chew up clock dinking and dunking between the twenties. I wish I knew their stats in the red zone. I do know points allowed in the fourth quarter weren't pretty. This is where they need to improve.

It sucked playing the best offense in the first game, but it is what it is onto the second game.


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They still need time to gel in game settings. D will hit it's stride around game 6 or 7.


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Quote:
It sucked playing the best offense in the first game


I respectfully disagree.
I think it was the very best thing this team's D could have asked for.

When you face the best O in the NFL, you see the best the league has to offer. That exposes what you need to work on, going forward. I think facing KC Game One was the best crucible this team's D could fiund itself in. Game One sets the bar. Now this team knows what it must beat in the post-season.

Tool your team to beat the best, and you become the best.

I have to disagree, bugs. It didn't suck at all. It was the best thing for us to experience. The season has 16 more games... and Elves will learn from this loss in ways that will prep them for tough games down the road.

Sucks to be 0-1 after one game, for sure. BUT: I trust our coaching staff to make the most of our game tape and analytics. This game was lost on two or three D breakdowns, a muffed punt, and a QB pick thrown in 'heroics time.'

School is never a bad thing.


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Good insight with which I agree. We needed a dose of realty to shake off the Kool-aid. We need to win, well, a number of things, and make sure we don't fall in love with our own interviews.
I suggested in an earlier post that I expected a loss here in game the first, but we use it to get revenge when it counts in the playoffs. Half a prophecy is better than none. We proved we could own them until we beat us. You are your record.

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Point taken.

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Titans at Seattle.
Russell Wilson, Seahawks Qb. clearly, clearly, clearly, tackled in the end zone or intentional grounding from the end zone.
The NFL. won't allow it.

They've not been fair considering the defense in the events of intentional grounding calls, for some 20 or more years.

10 plays later, give or take, the Titans won anyway, but! it should have been on that Safety, when Russell Wilson was tackled in the end zone.

... There was no forward progress, ( I know what forward progress does, and I know the referees call.) But! The guy never ran forward, he was running backward the entire time! He didn't even spin around to throw until he was already in the end zone. Clearly a safety.
A scoring play.
The game should have been over, as it was sudden death overtime the moment both teams had possessed the ball.


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Browns Defensive Issues Coming into Focus
Two games into the season, the Cleveland Browns have two main problems they need to improve on defense in order to take meaningful steps forward into becoming a championship level defense.
PETE SMITH

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-maven-features/defensive-issues-coming-into-focus


Through two games, the Cleveland Browns defense has malleable personnel to match what opponents are doing, but issues with getting stops on third down and a pass rush not capitalizing continuously stick out regardless of who is on the field.

Much will be attributed to lack of familiarity with the scheme as the Browns overhauled their defense this offseason. The Browns have nine players playing in their scheme that were not part of the team last year.

Some of the issues the Browns have result in a lack of players simply doing their job and trusting their teammates to do theirs. That should come with time.

When asked about it from a defensive line perspective in the post game presser, Myles Garrett said, “A little bit. D line is pretty much new except for me and (DE) Porter (Gustin). It’s tough to get that chemistry right away. It’s inspiring to go into that film room and see something we have been working on and it work cleanly. It just didn’t get there in time”

One consistent issue the Browns defensive line has shown is an inability to stay in appropriate pass rushing lanes. The worst offender through the two gams appears to be Jadeveon Clowney.

Both against the Kansas City Chiefs and Houston Texans, Jadeveon Clowney has rushed up the field too far on the offense's right, opening up space for the quarterback between the guard and tackle to either step up in the pocket to throw or simply run.

It's allowing the quarterback to effectively eliminate the pressure chasing from the left side. If the quarterback cannot step up in the pocket, the pressure from the opposite defensive end, often Myles Garrett, continues to be a threat.

In the game against the Chiefs, the Browns defensive line was disruptive, putting a ton of pressure on Patrick Mahomes throughout the game. Gap integrity let him off the hook at times while he simply made a handful of plays only he can make, but the defensive line had an impact.

Conversely, playing the Texans at home, the defensive line was simply not as effective as it needed to be. Takkarist McKinley was invisible. The interior did not offer much. Garrett was quiet. He was doubled much of the day, but by his standards, which include competing for the Defensive Player of the Year, he had a poor game.

This was at the heart of the Browns issues on third down, which has been the single biggest issue on defense through two games. 3rd-and-long, the down and distance, the situation this defense has been specifically built to excel, has been the single worst aspect of the the team's performance. In their two games, the Browns are stopping opponents just 37 percent of the time on third down.

Garrett was caught off guard when asked if it was fair for defensive coordinator Joe Woods to be taking heat, responding, "For what?"

The reporter, Marla Ridenour of the Akron Beacon Journal continued, "The fans are up in arms saying the defense doesn't look like you're playing up to your potential."

"It's on both of us. We gotta play to the best of our ability whatever calls that he gives us. If we don't make the play, that's not only on him. That's on all of us. So, no, you can put the blame on everyone on the field, all 11 of us and him as well. It's on all of us. We're a team and we're in this together."

The Browns defensive line clearly has the ability to play far better than they did against the Chiefs, but some of the issues they are having, including chemistry and gap responsibility must improve as well.

The linebacker position is in flux as a result of injuries, but Mack Wilson continues to play. He was downright awful against the Chiefs. His run defense has improved this year and against the Texans, he was often where he was supposed to be, but simply a little late.

The problem is that Wilson is the worst coverage linebacker on the team, which is particularly problematic as he plays WILL. The one adjustment the Browns have made is to try to have him on the field for situations teams are more likely to run the ball, then get him off the field for obvious passing situations.

Wilson is playing less overall. The presence of Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah is certainly a major reason for that. To this point, Of the 43 defensive snaps JOK has played, only 11 of them were run plays. He's blitzed four times and been in some form of coverage for 28.

Sione Takitaki has been arguably the team's best linebacker to this point, but he only plays SAM, so he's not on the field all that much. Takitaki has played MIKE in the past, though the results have been less than stellar. After a productive training camp and offseason, they might feel compelled to find more reasons to put him on the field without playing a third linebacker on the field.

The secondary is the most interesting aspect of the defense right now because it's the one that is always changing. Against the Chiefs, the Browns largely operated in zone, trying to keep their prolific offense in front of them, forcing them to take longer drives and potentially make mistakes.

Outside of the 75-yard touchdown on a broken play, the Browns were reasonably successful in their goal. They were also able to force a pair of field goal attempts and a pair of punts.

Against the Texans, the Browns played man. They allowed Denzel Ward and Greg Newsome to play the outside receivers and dared the quarterback to beat them. Unfortunately, in part because of some effective play by the Texans and a lack of a consistent pass rush, the Texans had success going after Ward and drew a big defensive pass interference penalty against Newsome.

Ultimately, this seems to be where the Browns want to be on a regular basis. Be able to effectively man up opposing teams in an effort to force quarterbacks to hold onto the ball longer while freeing up defenders to either blitz or provide extra help somewhere else. The results were by no means a disaster, but they need to keep improving. Brandin Cooks turned in 9 receptions for 78 yards. Not an unreasonable day for their best weapon to have, but hardly ideal for Ward, trying to make the case he warrants a significant contract extension.

The issue that bit the Browns was a combination of failing to get home with the pass rush, opening up rush lanes for the QB while the defense was playing man. Tyrod Taylor's 15-yard touchdown exploited this issue as he was given a wide open running lane with no one looking at him. He was presented with a wide open lane to the end zone and he didn't waste it.

The other notable change was the debut of Grant Delpit. After missing last year with an Achilles' injury as well as week one against the Chiefs, he made a handful of impact plays, including a sack fumble. Delpit was often used as in the role of a second level defender. Often attacking the line of scrimmage, he made a handful of key stops. Delpit was able to capitalize on blitz opportunities including a blind side hit on rookie quarterback Davis Mills that resulted in a fumble.

Delpit still has a tendency to dive at opposing ball carriers, which can have some feast or famine results. On the sack, he was utilized as a blitz threat not unlike he had often been at LSU during his collegiate career. They also sent him downhill blitzing the offensive interior.

The Browns did offer a sneak peak of what they hope will become a regular feature for this defense, having JOK and Delpit on the field at the same time. They get two fast, rangy players that have demonstrated excellent instincts and a knack for making plays.

Against teams like the Baltimore Ravens or the Buffalo Bills and Chiefs if they see them in the playoffs, that combination could be extremely valuable against teams that offers a quarterback that can make plays with their legs as well as their arms. The Browns get added coverage ability, but the range and closing speed becomes critical to track down ball carriers or to catch quarterbacks before they have a chance to escape the pocket.

With both playing the first snaps of their career, it's going to be a process to get them fully up to speed, but the early results and timely use of their abilities has provided a nice boost for a defense always looking for more help, particularly at the second level.

Last but certainly not least is Joe Woods, the defensive coordinator.

Woods' DNA dating back to his time with Wade Phillips is to win with the defensive line and drop guys into coverage. That is who he wants this defense to be. And while he does blitz, it's not unfair to ask if he does it enough. Further to that point, the Browns have players like JOK and Delpit that can specifically offer that as a skill.

The goal is to have their defensive line simply play better and dominate the line of scrimmage, so they don't need to blitz, but Woods can do more to incorporate the blitz and continue to keep teams off balance, attacking more rather than entirely working in terms of trying to play a prevention style of defense.

Just like the players, Joe Woods needs to grow along with the talent this team has amassed to most effectively utilize it, a process that is going to continue for the entirety of this season. Right now, his most immediate focus needs to be on improving on third down.


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Originally Posted By: myka
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: myka
Originally Posted By: Dawgs4Life
Agreed .. our defense must make more plays when it counts: 3rd downs and 4th quarters. Garrett got there once … we needed about 2-3 more


He got there at the end when it mattered.

D did their job yesterday, the O failed us.

#PutHigginsIn


The Browns defense...
Mahomes completed 75% of his passes for 337 yards, 3 TDs, and a 131.4 QB rating.
Tyreek Hill had 197 yards receiving.
Chiefs converted 69.2% of their 3rd downs
Had 1 sack
Forced 0 turnovers
Forced 0 3 and outs
Gave the offense avg. starting field position of the Browns 18

Funny I'm comparing your line of thinking with the "Defense wins championships" thread... These numbers don't win championships. I'm also not that upset at the defense, overall I think they played ok, the Chiefs have an elite offense

Most people have talked about the mistakes the Browns made.. but if you break it down by unit..

Offense:
Chubb fumble
Baker INT

Defense:
Starting safety getting himself ejected
Johnson getting turned around and giving up a 75 yard hail mary-esque TD right after we had scored to regain some momentum

Special Teams:
Botch punt snap giving them a 15 yard field.

I'm sure in some minds, Baker's mistake was last so it's the only one that really matters.. I don't think that way.


Giving up a long pass play to 2 Hall of Famers, one of which threw a pass that no other QB in the NFL can throw, isn't a failure imo. It's to be expected that your safety will get beat by Tyreek at least once in a game.

The way our O went to sleep in the 3rd quarter, followed by turnovers, and then failing in clutch time is why we lost. The D was very very good (not great, but just under great) in the first half.

They got worn down and tired in the 2nd half cuz the O stopped doing anything, and yet still managed to hold KC to a field goal on the midfield Chubb fumble turnover.

While I don't think the last INT was the biggest reason for the loss, GREAT offenses win when they get the ball last. We're not there yet, but hopefully soon smile

Bullcrap no other QB in the NFL can make that throw.. darn near every other QB in the NFL could make the throw that Mahomes made for the 75 yard TD.. he was rolling, "saw a hand", and heaved it down the field 30-40 yards.. most QBs wouldn't ATTEMPT it because it was blind luck.. but all of them could do it.

Our O didn't go to sleep in the 3rd Qtr.. we kicked off and promptly gave up a seven and half minute TD drive. We got the ball and had gained 30 yards on 3 plays before the fumble... then it took five and a half minutes to get the ball back after a FG... and that was the entire 3rd quarter... The offense didn't go to sleep, the defense did. I mean, the offense might have been sleeping, waiting for a chance to play but that would have been on the sidelines so I don't know.

Our next possession was a nice 75 yard TD drive.. good, the offense looking to take back some momentum, and that lasted.. *checks notes*.. 14 seconds it took the Chiefs to score a TD..

But sure.. the defense gave up 13 minutes of TOP in the 3rd quarter.. gave up a 14 second TD drive to answer our TD drive.. forced 0 turnovers.. allowed scores on 6 of the Chiefs 8 possessions... but yea, let's go with, the D was very very good


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Did the Browns run any snaps with only a 3 man D line?

There are teams every week who in some cases only have 3 DL on the field, if you are locked in to 4 or more DL on the field every snap then that may be taking a cover player off the field.

"you can't cover them all." ??


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Originally Posted By: OldColdDawg
They still need time to gel in game settings. D will hit it's stride around game 6 or 7.


This is my hope... it's a lot of new players... hoping they'll start to gel after a few games.... the offense had to take a few games last year to gel as well...


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Quote:
Woods' DNA dating back to his time with Wade Phillips is to win with the defensive line and drop guys into coverage. That is who he wants this defense to be. And while he does blitz, it's not unfair to ask if he does it enough. Further to that point, the Browns have players like JOK and Delpit that can specifically offer that as a skill.

The goal is to have their defensive line simply play better and dominate the line of scrimmage, so they don't need to blitz, but Woods can do more to incorporate the blitz and continue to keep teams off balance, attacking more rather than entirely working in terms of trying to play a prevention style of defense.

Just like the players, Joe Woods needs to grow along with the talent this team has amassed to most effectively utilize it, a process that is going to continue for the entirety of this season. Right now, his most immediate focus needs to be on improving on third down.


Woods sure doesn't have a problem pointing fingers at the defensive players, making them responsible for the the poor performance of the Woods defensive 'scheme' in the first two games.

It didn't take long for Tyrod Taylor to begin exploiting Woods defense from the beginning of the game. Once again Ward was playing zone/prevent defense, 10 yds 'off of' the Texans rookie WR, allowing him a free (untouched) release off of the LOS, and to remain untouched until the Woods prevent defense finally tackled him 32 yds down the field.

A few plays later, the Texans are 3rd and 9 and again pass toward Ward, who may have been playing man defense, but again allowed the Texans rookie WR an untouched release off of the LOS, resulting in a first down for the Texans.

Two plays later, touchdown for the Texans.

Once Taylor went out at half time and rookie Mills came in, the Texans were no longer able to exploit the Browns soft coverage by CBs Ward and Newsome, who were trying to play Woods defense.

JMHO, but a good coach tries to mold the talent of his players to the defensive scheme that is being run. Woods needs to look in the mirror and admit he needs to rethink the scheme he is asking the CBs to run.

Ward is being made to look like one of the worst CBs in the NFL as Woods defense is based on the DLine/LBs getting to the QB. Newsome doesn't look like a first round draft pick either as he attempts to play soft/prevent defense.





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The good news, after some began to question the defense Woods concocted for the Chiefs game, opinions were mixed between a slap on the back and praise for Woods defense...but once analysis and writers took the time to review the video, opinions began to change.

The Browns management went to great length to bring in the type of players Woods wanted..they extended contracts and signed free agent talent as well drafting defensive talent to help produce the quality of players Woods said he needed if he was going to produce a playoff caliber defense.

Again, a good coach analyses his talent and adjusts the scheme accordingly. If that does not happen, Stefanski and Berry may need to become more involved. Both Stefanski and Berry played DB in college so it's not like they don't recognize the issues with Woods D.

IMO, defensive adjustments are needed, asap....mac




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I'm not quite sure what it is about "taking time to play as a unit on the field" is escaping people.


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That's just MAC and his instand gratification generation. tongue


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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I'm not quite sure what it is about "taking time to play as a unit on the field" is escaping people.


This isn't junior high school football. They've been together since August. They had the chance to "get together as a unit' in the pre-season and chose not to...they have played two games thus far...it appears that they are running the same defense as last year.

I may be completely wrong...but nothing is escaping "people" like me in this regard. It's a results league...and the results on the D side of the ball are not good.

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Oh yes, it is escaping people. You seem to be trying to say that practice is the same thing as in game experience. Well it's not. Learning your assignments and the play book is one thing. Applying that, learning what your team mates will do and how they react is quite another thing.

I guess you didn't see what Greg Newsome II said about it. Pretty much the exact same thing I'm saying. But I guess you think you know more about what's going on with the team more than he does. Go figure.


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Wait a minute... I thought the story was that preseason games weren't necessary to prep the D for the regular season. Are we flipping back to saying that they are in an attempt to explain why the defense isn't playing up to expectations?

And quit it with the Newsome quotes. What else is the guy going to say... that his coach is a moron? He isn't going to say much on the matter.


I'm still in wait-and-see mode with Woods, but to act as if the D's performance vs Houston is anything other than a negative is being deliberately obtuse. While some posters are going a little over the top, honest criticism is warranted.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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First, what and who's story were you reading that said preseason games weren't needed for any team not to "prep" for the season? For the most part it's all of the preseason injuries and the fact that playing more games per year was not something the players wanted. So they extended the season by one game and in a trade off reduced preseason by one game. I mean if you read different authors and opinions you'll get different stories. Let's not pretend your version was the consensus.

There has been more than one comment by Newsome. In both cases they almost mirror what many people on this board have said all along. I mean that's "the story", right?

And in case you missed it nobody has said anything close to their performance was not negative. Honest criticism is just fine but if one is keeping it honest, they need to keep perspective and the situation into account. If not it's a knee jerk reaction and has nothing to do with honesty.

The situation is we have a group of players that have seen many new players installed which will take some time to learn to play as a unit.

By mid season if a lot of improvement isn't seen I will be glad to join those questioning Woods. But to jump the gun and attack him before this defense has time to gel as a unit I think is premature and unfounded.


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Gelling has nothing to do with play calling to your team's strengths and understanding situational football. "Gelling" is a fancy term for excuse making and for internet posters to sound smart.

There was zero reason to wait until the end of the game to bring pressure against a third round rookie QB who didn't expect to play. If they don't get home, run into the teeth of the OL, bump into each other, give up a bomb over the top, then maybe you can discuss "gelling".

Woods and/or Stefanski don't appear to have any idea of what they are doing on D. What's the identity? Let's be passive and hope the other team makes a mistake?

I am watching a bland, vanilla D with no life and no seeming rhyme or reason.

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Yes, they should look like a finished product from the opening snap of the first game. Anything and everything else is just an excuse.


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Originally Posted By: mac
The good news, after some began to question the defense Woods concocted for the Chiefs game, opinions were mixed between a slap on the back and praise for Woods defense...but once analysis and writers took the time to review the video, opinions began to change.

The Browns management went to great length to bring in the type of players Woods wanted..they extended contracts and signed free agent talent as well drafting defensive talent to help produce the quality of players Woods said he needed if he was going to produce a playoff caliber defense.

Again, a good coach analyses his talent and adjusts the scheme accordingly. If that does not happen, Stefanski and Berry may need to become more involved. Both Stefanski and Berry played DB in college so it's not like they don't recognize the issues with Woods D.

IMO, defensive adjustments are needed, asap....mac



You could be talking about Stefanski because he is the head coach.

He hired Woods. I assume he likes what he brings to the table.

The point I am making is if things don't improve as they stand now, Stefanski is allowing it to happen.

It's still a bit early to throw in the towel on Woods and the D, but with each game it is getting closer.

I suppose it is going to have to take a miserable loss before anything major is changed.


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The stories coming out of last year's training camp where we had no preseason and restricted practice time, new coaches and systems, and the offense still came out looking organized and disciplined. The same stories that had our starters playing very little (if at all) this preseason.

Before I go further, are you saying we have to wait for this defense to gel so they can get to a level where they're not getting carved up by the likes of Tyrod Taylor? Taylor, being a QB that was signed by Houston this past offseason....


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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If you couldn't see the stark contrast from the first half of last season compared to the second half of last season from our O, I certainly can't help you with that. It was obvious to almost everyone that our O improved greatly from the first half of last season to the second half of the season.

I'm saying that you can't expect a defense to do things they aren't ready to do. Just like trying to say that in 2020 the O should have been a finished product in week 2 or 3 when we all saw with our own eyes that just wasn't so.


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In a corresponding move to placing WR Jarvis Landry on injured reserve, the Cleveland Browns signed defensive end Ifeadi Odenigbo to their active roster. The team was able to add Odenigbo to their initial practice squad after 53-man rosters were set at the end of the preseason.

His addition wasn’t the team taking a chance on a young player who hadn’t produced in the league. Instead, Odenigbo had a breakout year in 2019 with the Minnesota Vikings and followed it up by starting 15 games for the team in 2020.

While his sack total dropped from 7.0 in 2019 down to 3.5 in 2020 some of that was due to Danielle Hunter, the Vikings’ top pass rusher, missing all of last year.

Odenigbo is a Centerville, Ohio native who was once claimed by the Browns but never saw the field in a regular-season game. While he may never be a full-time starter in the NFL, his production in two seasons with Minnesota showed some quality play:



As you can see, Odenigbo won with a variety of moves off the edge while showing a good motor to keep pursuing the quarterback.

So far in 2021, Cleveland hasn’t gotten after the quarterback much at all. The team has combined for a total of three sacks despite the additions of Jadeveon Clowney, Takk McKinley, Malik Jackson and Malik McDowell to the defensive line that already included Myles Garrett.

One of those sacks belongs to Joe Jackson who was able to get after Patrick Mahomes late in the third quarter of Week 1. Unfortunately for Jackson, that sack was one of only 18 plays that he has seen on defense. While Garrett and Clowney have had over 90 snaps each and McKinley has over 50, the team hasn’t found a use for Jackson much.

Could Odenigbo, who was with Kevin Stefanski during his best season in 2019, provide some relief to the top edge rushers and keep them fresh? Will defensive coordinator Joe Woods find a way to have three or four of those guys on the field more often to try to create pressure?

Odenigbo proved in 2019, with Hunter rushing the passer with him, that he can get after the quarterback. The Browns would love to see some of that in Cleveland sooner rather than later.


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I never said the 2020 O was a finished product week 1. Don't put words in my mouth. I said they came out organized and disciplined... plus the improvement from first half to second was largely due to Baker's progression.

So going by your non-answer, you are saying that our D playing down to a lesser (by just about every measure) opponent is simply part of the gelling process?


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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j/k

I don't think the concern about the defense is that people are upset that its 'struggling'. I think people are starting to get concerned because it doesn't seem to look a whole lot different than where we left off last year.

Don't get me wrong, I think on an individual level we are seeing something noticeably different in the talent level. But we have seen 2 weeks n a row in the later minutes of the game that they can be aggressive and successful. Obviously Delpit can't be set to blitz every play, but consistently not stopping the opposing offense on 3rd and long is an issue.

Now one thing that I don't think has been discussed which would be relevant is how does Woods install his defenses? Does he focus on the basics then add from there? Or is he the type to throw it all at the players in one go and have them get proficient via OJT?


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