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Being somewhat 'oldschool', it's my opinion that if the Browns are going to win a championship, it will be up to the strength of our defense to lead the way.

Given the moves the Browns management have made during this off season, they are viewing the needs for team success much as I do.
A majority of the upgrades have been on the defensive side of the ball.

Now it's up to the defense to show up and perform, especially at those critical times when a key defensive stop will ice the game for the Browns.

Improved defense and the quality of the Browns' depth will be major keys if the Browns compete for the big prize.

jmo, mac

Last edited by mac; 09/03/21 04:42 PM.



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They are going to need a super defensive performance to beat the chiefs.

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That applies to any team that plays the Chiefs.


And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
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First they had to build the protection of Baker.

Then they had to fix Baker. Get his feet to work with his eyes. AVP had a plan. Baker worked the plan.

This off season was used to build the defense. Free agency and then the draft.

Once OTA's began and all through the camp. The defense was worked on. All the new players were fit in and they worked through technique and execution.

Injuries may have slowed down on field practice. However, classroom and playbook. I am sure got plenty of work.

What will help are the veterans at each level. The line will be fine.

Walker is a big add to second level. He will help JOK and who else is in there.

JJ3 is the key add to the secondary. He will keep the last line in place. Very vocal guy who really knows what offenses are trying to do.

Yes. It is the defense that will complete the team.

Post season is about slowing down great quarterbacks and top offenses.

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JJ3 is an addition but Terrence Mitchell is no longer here.
like someone said, putting all their eggs in the Delpit and Greedy basket for the year after they put all their eggs in the Delpit and Greedy basket last year.

This year, Terrence Mitchell isn't waiting to bale/bail them out.
It could be a Rude Awakening.


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JMHO, your statement is baloney. The front office brought in several DBs and Safeties. We went MAINLY D this year in the off-season, but added key O pieces too. OBJ back, DPJ isn't a 6th rd anymore, Schwartz and Felton are good adds- especially Schwartz with is scary speed.

Our D must perform, yet, something not mentioned much is the game of KEEP AWAY. We need to shorten the game by scoring on long time consuming drives...scoring TDs not FGs. If we stay close and eat clock I'll be real happy.
Go Browns!!!


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Delpit was IR and Greedy we knew it was gonna be a big part of the season.
This year they are healthy dealing with some dings and such but they are counted on as we GO INTO THE SEASON. Not the way we depended on them last year !
Your statement makes no sense to me.


You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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Originally Posted By: THROW LONG
They are going to need a super defensive performance to beat the chiefs.



The Chiefs offense is experienced, running Andy Reids offense for several years and the Chiefs defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo in his 3rd season.

The Browns offense is not going to be a surprise to the Chiefs after facing the Browns in the playoffs last season. The only "unknown" will be the Browns defense with all the changes on that side of the ball.

The Browns defense will be in good position to surprise a few teams, especially early in the season.




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Tampa showed how to beat KC. It is not a mystery anymore. Now doing it is another story.

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Terrance Mitchell has mostly been a career backup corner.

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Originally Posted By: THROW LONG
JJ3 is an addition but Terrence Mitchell is no longer here.
like someone said, putting all their eggs in the Delpit and Greedy basket for the year after they put all their eggs in the Delpit and Greedy basket last year.

This year, Terrence Mitchell isn't waiting to bale/bail them out.
It could be a Rude Awakening.


Geez, am I going to have to put you back on iggy?

We are going to be just fine FFS!


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I don't think KC "knows the Browns offense". Last year was year one of Stefanski installing his offense. If preseason is any indication we'll see much more variety in the plays than we saw last year. He dialed up a lot of things in preseason I never saw last season.


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Defense still wins championships

After your offense gets you there

And then After your offense exposes the other teams defense by beating them


Then Defense can win championships.

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Don't be indecisive.
I won't embrace a bad situation that is recognizeably so.

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I'm gonna go out on a limb and say "Balance" generally wins championships.

YOu can't have an offense that doesn't score points and expect to win in this league. It's not sustainable.

You also can't have a defense that can't stop anyone either and expect to win either.

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Quote:
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say "Balance" generally wins championships.


I can't disagree that a 'balance' that ranks an offense and defense near the top of the league would put a franchise in the best position to win a Super Bowl.



Quote:
YOu can't have an offense that doesn't score points and expect to win in this league. It's not sustainable.

You also can't have a defense that can't stop anyone either and expect to win either.


The Browns have experienced both a deficient offense and/or a deficient defense over the past 20 years.

The offense should perform better in year two of the SKI O and if the judgement of management is correct, (hopefully) the defensive players brought in and those drafted will live up to the hype.




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j/c

The Browns offense is ready to win a championship now. The question mark is the defense ready?

If the defense performs at a top 15 level in three categories we get the whole enchilada.

Points allowed
Turnovers
3rd down stops


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I agree quard.

But I will say my personal expectations for this defense is higher.

The defense is way faster than it was last year.

Last year the overall defensive ranking was 17th.

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2021/05/21/cleveland-browns-named-3rd-best-defense-recent-ranking/

IMO we will at least top ten.

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been saying last several years that D and running game are dead as all the experts have been saying. I've been saying BS!!!
All teams are looking to bolster their D and run game. Necessary to have.
We will be proof of that. Chiefs lost the SB due to a lack of D and they will lose against us also due to a lack in D.


Make us a Championship Team 2021 Draft:
Newsome, JOK, Schwartz and others. Berry is awesome
Get off early start and we will go all the way! SB baby!

GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Precisely tab

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I think QB quality has a large say, but defense is definitely an underrated part of the winning formula. I looked at ranks (by points allowed) for the last 10 SB champs, and they've all been top 10, save 2. Strangely enough, those 2 were among the weakest QBs to win it (Flacco - 12th), and Eli (25th).

So I guess the key to these next 2 seasons may be whether we can field a top10 D.


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Or . . .

A) Get yourself off the field;

B) Do not break!; and,

C)Change the game with takeaways. Want to add for this year, have a scoring defense for a change. The talent we have to attack with pass rush and force some interceptions, strip sacks, and forced fumbles ought to put up points. The best offense will have its off day or so. Then it is all on the defense. We can be about fifth or sixth if we work hard and stay healthy.

Really want to see our defense force their will on a game as opposed to seeing the offense need to carry them. Go, Browns!


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I think as long as the offense doesn't take any massive steps back, the defense needs to simply NOT LOSE games. They really only need to play complimentary football. IMO, I think that comes in a bend-don't-break style of play in the beginning of games. If the O can put up early points while the D chips in with some big plays (sacks/stops leading to punts) or even takeaways, then that sets this D up to really cut loose and have some fun in second halves when opposition begins to get 1-dimensional.

I think we're building more of an opportunistic D vs a complete shutdown D because of the makeup of our Dline (some strong pieces, but not game-breaking-dominant), our LB corps (serviceable).


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You make some great points here, with a but?

Joe has said it and when you stand back and think for a moment the NFL and the rules they have instituted point to huge numbers for offenses. Throwing the ball and going after chuck plays.

That said the defenses are IMO left with 2 modes of operation. Pressure a QB as much as humanly possible and take chances on the backend to create turnovers. Make the offense grind out the points they do get and hold your breath as the game moves along hoping you get that big play turnover while taking chances, that is why I believe the emphasis is on versatility and speed?


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OOBER,
Maybe you're right. I'm just pointing out facts that 8/10 most recent SB winners had top10 defenses in points allowed. Lots of things go into that in addition to defensive play though...competition quality, pressure put on opponents when your offense is very good (and you play from ahead a lot), etc.


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jc...

Have the Browns found the defensive players who will rise to those critical moments in a game that ensures a Browns win?

Been a whole bunch of hype about the Browns defense but not much evidence that they will live up to expectations.

It is "show me time"...




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Quote:
Being somewhat 'oldschool', it's my opinion that if the Browns are going to win a championship, it will be up to the strength of our defense to lead the way.

Of course it's hard to win a chip if you can't stop anybody but I doubt we will ever see a defense like the great "oldschool" ones that gave up 12 ppg.. too many rule changes to aid the offense for that to happen again.

If you can average giving up 20 ppg now, that is stellar defense. And you still need to be able to outscore the teams that get into the 30s on you... it's going to happen.


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You know my love will Not Fade Away.........


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I am excited to watch this guy play in real games.


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Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Quote:
Being somewhat 'oldschool', it's my opinion that if the Browns are going to win a championship, it will be up to the strength of our defense to lead the way.

Of course it's hard to win a chip if you can't stop anybody but I doubt we will ever see a defense like the great "oldschool" ones that gave up 12 ppg.. too many rule changes to aid the offense for that to happen again.

If you can average giving up 20 ppg now, that is stellar defense. And you still need to be able to outscore the teams that get into the 30s on you... it's going to happen.


DC I had this conversation with someone today, about the reality of todays NFL.

I know you'll still see defenses that hand their opponent their butt from time to time, but in todays NFL and with some of the QB's we see coming out of college I just don't see how you shut these teams down.

I think the Browns defense we have assembled now as we speak is a great example of what I expect will see more and more of in the near future. You simply can't shut down a well executed offense what you can do though is hurry that offense with quick pressure and with speed and more speed on the backend. That means to a degree that you are almost giving up on stopping the run and counting on your offense to pressure the opponent to have to throw the ball.

Listen to Joe Woods what I am saying he has said in a way. Our defense is focused on speed and the passing game. Oddly though it gives them the kind of team speed they need to deal with Jackson, when I just did say they sorta have given up on stopping the run. His days of running loose thru our backend are coming to a close he will have to be a passer and that doesn't hold out much chance for him either.

But you made a great point DC, what you said is absolutely true and our defense is the adjustment to the rules and to the offenses we see today.


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You know my love will Not Fade Away.........


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Within that context.

We were built to beat teams like Baltimore and the Chiefs.

Berry has added speed to the secondary and linebackers.

And he prioritized the pass rush.

Myles was here. He went after Clowney and Takk like there was no tomorrow.

Defense is now based upon speed guys in space and speed rushers to apply pressure.
===================================================


The brilliance of our offense is based upon the offensive line. Provide protection for the quarterback.

Where we struck gold was Nick Chubb. He is a incredible runner. And as a teammate he brings an attitude of work.

Hunt was a stroke of luck. He was available and we got him.
He is the closet thing to "beast mode" in the game today.

Those two guys in combination along with the OL provides all the balance we need. It sets up play action and the pass game.

Of all the teams right now. We have the formula to beat teams like the Ravens and the Chiefs.

That is no quarantee. But we are built to beat them.
===================================================

When the season ended. As Berry pondered the upcoming year. He had to look at the landscape. He had a playoff team. How can we beat the best teams in the AFC?

He developed a plan. Then implemented the plan.

Here we are today.

Come Sunday. We will find out if the plan works.

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As you know Bone you and I see things identically.

I look at the NFL landscape and I think at this point and I have pondered long and hard on this that anything less then the Lombardi for this team this season will be a let down.

With a defense that was really not very good last year to what we will put on the field come Sunday is a lot to try to project.

That said this team was in the PO last season with a not so good defense by any measure aside from Garret and Ward that is.

You don't have to be a X and O guy to realize that the Browns are truly elite on Offense I mean that is real simple they made the PO last year that speaks for itself, and it is also pretty clear that the reason we did that was because of Baker and Nick. Balance

So fast forward to now this defense underwent a radical transformation this off season we added speed and veteran leadership at all but one level.

There is no way that we don't see improvement, and there is no way heading into every game we play that we don't have a better then even chance of coming out with the W. When I look at this schedule I can honestly say that we probably should win every game we play, and yes I include the Chiefs game we are about to play.

We are in for a ride this season, and more then ever I believe it will end with the Lombardi.

I think the ONLY thing that has stopped the talking heads and a great deal of our own fan base going nuts over this team is they are the Browns, anyone else and we are the team to beat in the SB.


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Quote:

See new Tweets
Tweet
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The #Browns might have some of the fastest CBs in the entire league.

Greg Newsome II- 4.38 40 yard dash
Greedy Williams- 4.37 40 yard dash
Denzel Ward- 4.32 40 yard dash



This a great example for the point I'm trying to make...

...is the 40 time of our DBs more impressive to our fans than a Browns DB who makes a game winning tackle?

I believe in doing what ever it takes for the Browns to win the game.

That 40 time is not an advantage if the Browns defense can't make that game winning tackle.






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I don't disagree with you at all, but another poster took this same tweet and put up the 40 times of the DBs that didn't come back from last year. It's a stark difference, and I think that is the key takeaway.


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BTTB,

Be prepared for disappointment, then. Or put another way, I hope you don't gamble. Even the most elite teams in the league in a given year have maybe a 15-20% chance to win the SB. There are too many variables. And as much as you may want to will it into existence, we have not yet proven to be an elite team.

Our offense in 2020 was above average. We finished 14th in points scored in the regular season. But we were way better in the 2nd half when Baker took off, right? Nope. We scored 33.3 points/game in the first 6 contests, and 20.8/game over the last 10. But the bad weather games, and the Jets/Covid game, right? Kind of. Excluding those, we scored 29 pts/game. Outside the top 5 offenses. We were a good offense, but not a great one. Can we be this year? Yeah, sure. But you talk about this like its a done deal.

Defensively, we are an even bigger question. There is the fact that they haven't played a down together yet. We also have 3 elite talents in starting positions which have not been able to stay on the field (Clowney, Ward, Delpit). We have 4 "rookies" which we are counting on to be major contributors (McDowell, JOK, Newsome, Delpit). None of these facts says we will have an elite defense. Certainly not in the first half of the year. The time for fantasizing is over. Now its time for them to actually show us.


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Those numbers make for a compelling argument. Thank you for sharing that.

That said, I don't think it's unreasonable for the end of the last year to be used as the floor for expectations this year (for the offense). Returning all the key cogs and getting OBJ back... all with a second (and far more effective) off-season for getting everyone on the same page... there's no reason to set expectations above the best that we saw last year.


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I agree, we should be looking at a floor of 29 ppg moving forward, barring injury. Says nothing about the D, though. Top 10 would be about 22.5 ppg or less. Last year we gave up 26.1. Are we 4 points better this year? On paper, 100% yes. On paper.


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Originally Posted By: dnadawg
BTTB,

Be prepared for disappointment, then. Or put another way, I hope you don't gamble. Even the most elite teams in the league in a given year have maybe a 15-20% chance to win the SB. There are too many variables. And as much as you may want to will it into existence, we have not yet proven to be an elite team.

Our offense in 2020 was above average. We finished 14th in points scored in the regular season. But we were way better in the 2nd half when Baker took off, right? Nope. We scored 33.3 points/game in the first 6 contests, and 20.8/game over the last 10. But the bad weather games, and the Jets/Covid game, right? Kind of. Excluding those, we scored 29 pts/game. Outside the top 5 offenses. We were a good offense, but not a great one. Can we be this year? Yeah, sure. But you talk about this like its a done deal.

Defensively, we are an even bigger question. There is the fact that they haven't played a down together yet. We also have 3 elite talents in starting positions which have not been able to stay on the field (Clowney, Ward, Delpit). We have 4 "rookies" which we are counting on to be major contributors (McDowell, JOK, Newsome, Delpit). None of these facts says we will have an elite defense. Certainly not in the first half of the year. The time for fantasizing is over. Now its time for them to actually show us.


And I noticed you ignored my main point here.

That being under the very worst of circumstances this defense will be better then last years version.

Compound that with the fact that this offense carried this team to the PO last year without a lot of help from that defense, a rise to say number 10 on defense and I will take our chances of getting to the big game. All realistically within our reach.

Of course there are countless things that can happen on the way to the dance. Some Browns fans (you) need a good dose of anti battered Browns Syndrome vaccine.

If you want to look for the down side of things, it's easy to find.

Put a few on ice, make a big bowl of popcorn on to pop, we won't decide the outcome here today or any day....................


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This is from Terry Pluto and wonder if you were one of these gentlemen and I think Terry speaks well for me.

Hey Terry: I’m so excited about this team, but I’m also afraid to get my heart broken again. I’ve been a fan for 60 years. Can you help me get rid of that fear? – Gay Snyder, Big Prairie, Ohio

Hey Terry: I’ve been a fan for 50 years and haven’t seen this much hype since the days of Marty Schottenheimer and Bernie Kosar. I’ve been excited before and been let down many times. Why does this feel different? – Bob Toth, Rossford, Ohio.


Hey Gay & Bob: There are different versions of football “heartbreak.” The Browns going 3-13, 1-15, 0-16 (2015-17) are teams with no heartbeat. The 2019 team (6-10 record), is an example of a team with a much bigger head (and ego) than heart.

I assume you are talking about the Browns of the late 1980s, The Drive and The Fumble. But those teams played with a lot heart. They represented the city well. They were fun to watch. They made Sunday afternoons special. They did everything except go to a Super Bowl.

For a while, I’ve been saying the Browns now remind me of the Browns in the late 1980s. They have a front office/coach/QB combination in place. In the 1980s, it was Ernie Accorsi/Schottenheimer/Kosar. Now, it’s Paul DePodesta and Andrew Berry/Kevin Stefanski/Baker Mayfield.

I’d rather take a chance on some heartbreak and have teams like the 1980s compared to what we watched after that. Take it one game at time, savor the wins...and remember 1-15 and 0-16 wasn’t that long ago.

****************************************************

I will take the heartbreak too, who won't?

I have waited long enough no sticking my toe in the water I am in all the way, it's the only way to be if your a fan, and that is me this year.

I dare to let my hopes and dreams guide me this season because just like Terry said the alternative sucks, so why NOT.

I am 62 and in poor health I have a dream of seeing my Browns win it all before I hit the exit, and I think we have the best chance I have ever seen us have so now is NOT a time to be worried about embarrassing myself because I dared believe.

You stick with your stats I will trust my eyes and yes my heart.


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Wow.

I just read the article that was posted about Berry and his rise to GM.

I surprised myself. According to the article what I just wrote is pretty much on the mark.

Damn. Berry's philosophy is quarterback driven first then the OL.

The DL based upon pressure.

The article is well written and very interesting.

We are fotunate to have Berry as our GM.

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I understand. And yes, given that we all know the train could go off the rails at any moment, we should be enjoying the ride while it is still good.

But having cautious optimism isn't a sign of Battered Browns Fan Syndrome. I think we'll be a top 10 team in the league this year, that we have a good shot to be in the AFCC, and are seemingly set up to compete for years...to "represent the city well" as Pluto put it. I am excited about all of that, and I'm all about gameday positivity. But the offseason and non-gamedays are for more level-headed analysis, IMO. To sit here on September 9th and say <SB win will be a big let down is just an emotional view that doesn't suit me. I'm glad it suits you...although I still advise against gambling with that level of emotion. tongue

Sunday cannot come soon enough! (although I hate the 4pm start).


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Quote:
the train could go off the rails at any moment


Quote:
But having cautious optimism isn't a sign of Battered Browns Fan Syndrome


Get vaccinated. Overly cautious behavior is a dead give away it's where the sufferers of the syndrome run and hide.

This is as good a team as we have ever had in my lifetime.

The time for displaying the syndrome is over it's time to be a fan.

This sort of ride seldom shows up don't spend it being cautiously optimistic.

The fun is the struggle the disappointment and in the end the victory that seals the deal I welcome it all.

Now is our time can the stats the worst case scenario and replace it with enthusiasm and look for why it will work, not why it won't.

Another sign of the syndrome, BTW.

In the end we can spend our time reliving past failures or we can enjoy the moment and the fun that comes with it.



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I don't think slamming people exhibiting symptoms of BBFS is very productive. These are generally the people that were hit hard by past disappointments/failures. They were there during the low times and didn't cut bait. Cautious optimism from someone that's been religiously watching this team since the return doesn't deserve "you need to be a fan".


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Agreed. I've been a Browns fan since 1967 so I've seen and been through all of it. I waited 50 years to see my hockey team ( ST. Louis Blues) finally win a Stanley Cup. I've waited Longer for my Browns. They're my last team that hasn't won a championship. I hope the drought ends soon.

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People who always look for why it can't be done are kill joys, and worse yet they remind me of my wife........bla


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Brown I feel it can be done this year. We do have the talent and I feel we can play with anybody. If we stay relatively healthy we can go a long way.

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Originally Posted By: Brown to the Bone
People who always look for why it can't be done are kill joys, and worse yet they remind me of my wife........bla


That's just sad. I know we have a lot of "Think the way I do or something's wrong with you" in politics these days, but I never thought I would see it bleed over into our football fan base. Boy was I wrong about that.

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Yeah, I get it (except for the part about your wife). Not trying to get on your case, just pointing out that the majority of people who are being cautious are the ones that have been burned in the past in getting their hopes up, and they stuck with the team even in the bad years.

Now there's a difference between people who are cautiously optimistic or keeping their excitement in check and the people that are perpetually wet blankets/downers. If you're talking about the latter, then go ahead and slam away. IMO, there's a difference, though.

I know I'm trying (and failing) to keep my enthusiasm in check at least until the games start. The amount of love we're getting right now (major talking head talking about us winning the SB), is setting off alarms in my head.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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It's funny, I find the polyanna attitude of "we are the best thing to grace the football field and are going to dominate everyone and definitely win the SB" to be...well...I'll refrain from the word I want to use.

That said, my personal attitude has absolutely 0 to do with the Browns. That's who I am. It just so happens that I don't get depressed by examining the gray areas/downsides/risks/etc. in life. Others do, hence I've been called a downer/eeyore/etc. before, so have at it. As far as I'm concerned, if you are somehow emotionally bothered by considering negatives alongside positives, that's a you problem.


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If you knew my wife you would understand, trust me she doesn't know how to enjoy much always looking for the other shoe to come down and ruins what should be fun, drives me nuts.

Whatever you have been thru so have I. Do some reading about successful people they failed over and over and never let it stop them they learned got better and kept their heads down and worked.

After decades of keeping my head down and never giving up or in it's payoff time. brownie

Not going to let the past stop me from enjoying every moment, going to walk with my head high and letting the world know I was there when they weren't so good now is my time, watch me dance. nanner

We deserve everything we are about to receive, I intend to enjoy it just being a fan, let Ski and the team work out the details my job is to be a great fan and enjoy the fruits of the many many years I supported this team without much return.

Now is our time enjoy it and the hell with the past, our time is now.

You pout and lament away, not me no thanks for that, I have moved on. Stay where you are if it makes you feel comfortable. willynilly

I also know that not every moment will be filled with joy it wouldn't be any fun if it were easy it won't sway me a bit I expect it.

This should really send you into a tizzy I think we will be the next great dynasty................ nanner

And if it don't work out then I will be back next year expecting the exact same results. Gone are the days I have to scream about how poorly this team is run I get to be exactly what I was before the Browns turned into a train wreck a fan, the best in the sporting world I would add. nanner I gotta have some dawg bones and some batteries here somewhere............hahaha naughtydevil


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Originally Posted By: Brown to the Bone
You pout and lament away, not me no thanks for that, I have moved on. Stay where you are if it makes you feel comfortable. willynilly


See, here's where you go off the rails. I haven't seen anyone doing either of these. Trying to be objective is not "pouting or lamenting". You act as though anyone who tries to break down the possibility that your dream may not turn out to be a reality is some kind of Debbie Downer. That's just not true.

And let me tell you something about successful people. Sure they "believe they can do it". But let me tell you what else they do. They weigh their risks, explore their options and consider everything that can go wrong to stand in their way.

They don't live in some fairyland dream world where they act like nothing can go wrong.


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Quote:
See, here's where you go off the rails. I haven't seen anyone doing either of these. Trying to be objective is not "pouting or lamenting". You act as though anyone who tries to break down the possibility that your dream may not turn out to be a reality is some kind of Debbie Downer. That's just not true.


Be whatever you feel comfortable with, but the Browns won't be calling you or me for advise so don't worry yourself so.

Me I am going to dance dance dance. nanner


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So anyone with a different view than your own are "pouting and lamenting"?

Be careful not to break a leg. Dancing blindly can help facilitate that.


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Originally Posted By: mac
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The #Browns might have some of the fastest CBs in the entire league.

Greg Newsome II- 4.38 40 yard dash
Greedy Williams- 4.37 40 yard dash
Denzel Ward- 4.32 40 yard dash



This a great example for the point I'm trying to make...

...is the 40 time of our DBs more impressive to our fans than a Browns DB who makes a game winning tackle?

I believe in doing what ever it takes for the Browns to win the game.

That 40 time is not an advantage if the Browns defense can't make that game winning tackle.



Just make the play, that's what fans care about.

And in general, speed is better than lack of speed when it comes to making plays or being in position to make plays.


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Do you mean to tell me not being fast enough to keep up with opposing WR's may leave you in a position where you can't cover them and may not be in a position to make the play? wink


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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
So anyone with a different view than your own are "pouting and lamenting"?

Be careful not to break a leg. Dancing blindly can help facilitate that.


You should do whatever makes you happy I do.

I respect your absolute right to sweat the details have had it I won't be signing up with you anytime soon though I want to be the fan I remember from the late 70's and early eighties that would see the Browns having a rough afternoon and collectively rise from their seats and begin to raise hell and urge the team to win.

Now that is why I was always proud to be a Browns fan, I always thought that is what a fan should be and so I have returned to my rightful place.

I am all in and I will urge the team on from here forward in the hopes that it helps them win.

It worked then I believe it will work now.

I assume my old number 12, and the position I proudly had up until the past few decades went by. Out with the new in with the old.


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Quote:
So anyone with a different view than your own are "pouting and lamenting"?


The poster who has often responded to other's differing posts/opinion with "Wah" to illustrate pouting and lamenting, is now making this argument? brownie

Oh, the irony.


"We'll see how much Brat...errr..........Baker improves w/out Hue in his way."
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jc...




link

John Johnson III says Browns D needs to 'beat the best' to be 'one of the best'Johnson believes the Browns are facing the perfect Week 1 testSep 09, 2021 at 04:26 PM

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vMrnC5ZhWI [/video]

John Johnson III believes the rejuvenated Browns defense is going against the perfect Week 1 opponent.With Myles Garrett, Jadeveon Clowney, Denzel Ward and Johnson, among others, the Browns are seeking to establish themselves as one of the best defenses in the AFC.With Patrick Mahomes, Tyreek Hill, Travis Kelce and Clyde Edwards-Helaire, the Chiefs — back-to-back winners of the AFC and the first opponent the Browns will face in 2021 — have already established themselves as one of the best offenses in the NFL.Johnson has been eager to see just how strong the new defense truly is since he signed as a free agent with the Browns in March. He didn't need five weeks of training camp to know the group holds talent, but only the regular season can reveal the true strength of the group.They'll receive a big answer Sunday at Arrowhead Stadium.




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Originally Posted By: MemphisBrownie
Quote:
So anyone with a different view than your own are "pouting and lamenting"?


The poster who has often responded to other's differing posts/opinion with "Wah" to illustrate pouting and lamenting, is now making this argument? brownie

Oh, the irony.


Pot meet kettle. You've done little but try to celebrate a man who can't even get a job in the NFL while attacking the guy that brought us Baker and Chubb.

Then throw a tantrum every time someone calls you on it.

rofl


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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Originally Posted By: MemphisBrownie
Quote:
So anyone with a different view than your own are "pouting and lamenting"?


The poster who has often responded to other's differing posts/opinion with "Wah" to illustrate pouting and lamenting, is now making this argument? brownie

Oh, the irony.


Pot meet kettle. You've done little but try to celebrate a man who can't even get a job in the NFL while attacking the guy that brought us Baker and Chubb.

Then throw a tantrum every time someone calls you on it.

rofl


I'll defer to the intelligence and reason of the board (crossing fingers) that this has nothing to do with what has been said.

I thought you said you stopped drinking???







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It's obvious to see you haven't.


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This is the type comment I expect to hear from those free agents who signed a contract to play for the Browns...

...to be the best, you have to beat the best...

Hopefully the Browns can live up to the expectations and standards they set for themselves.




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Dak was impressive against the Cowboys...but it's the same old Dallas D. Cowboys are 0-1.

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dna...QB is #1 I have said that all along. You don't need rhe best QB but if not elite then you better have the elite D and running game. Ravens are in that mode don't care what anybody says he is far from being an elite QB he however is an elite running threat and they need that elite D...losing Marcus Peters is big time for them...Edward's RB honestly average at best, Kelly who we cut can be just as good for the Ravens. But they are near average in D if you ask me. Lamar's air game cannot carry them and OL I don't think is dominant.
Jmho


Make us a Championship Team 2021 Draft:
Newsome, JOK, Schwartz and others. Berry is awesome
Get off early start and we will go all the way! SB baby!

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Originally Posted By: TrooperDawg
Dak was impressive against the Cowboys...but it's the same old Dallas D. Cowboys are 0-1.


Except even I can out run him now.

That injury has really slowed him down.


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Originally Posted By: SuperBrown
Originally Posted By: TrooperDawg
Dak was impressive against the Cowboys...but it's the same old Dallas D. Cowboys are 0-1.


Except even I can out run him now.

That injury has really slowed him down.


See SB run. Run SB, run.... nanner


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Originally Posted By: eotab
dna...QB is #1 I have said that all along. You don't need rhe best QB but if not elite then you better have the elite D and running game. Ravens are in that mode don't care what anybody says he is far from being an elite QB he however is an elite running threat and they need that elite D...losing Marcus Peters is big time for them...Edward's RB honestly average at best, Kelly who we cut can be just as good for the Ravens. But they are near average in D if you ask me. Lamar's air game cannot carry them and OL I don't think is dominant.
Jmho


I feel bad for the Raven's, oh well I am over it. I wouldn't take them lightly for sure but I think we were in a position to take them out back and give them a good ass whipping anyway. If anyone is silly enough to think that LJ is going to carry that team with his arm they are out of their minds.

We will own them this year and next and so on.

That said KC you get to go 1st.


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You know my love will Not Fade Away.........


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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Originally Posted By: MemphisBrownie
Quote:
So anyone with a different view than your own are "pouting and lamenting"?


The poster who has often responded to other's differing posts/opinion with "Wah" to illustrate pouting and lamenting, is now making this argument? brownie

Oh, the irony.


Pot meet kettle. You've done little but try to celebrate a man who can't even get a job in the NFL while attacking the guy that brought us Baker and Chubb.

Then throw a tantrum every time someone calls you on it.

rofl


Not for nothing but do we know "He Who Shall Not be Named" (Praise be to Sashi) wants to work in the NFL? Last we heard he was consulting for what? 3 NBA teams? If nothing else, how many teams have we seen over the last couple of seasons doing a Sashi (praise behis name) style teardown?

I'd say he's been vindicated.


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Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: mac
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The #Browns might have some of the fastest CBs in the entire league.

Greg Newsome II- 4.38 40 yard dash
Greedy Williams- 4.37 40 yard dash
Denzel Ward- 4.32 40 yard dash



This a great example for the point I'm trying to make...

...is the 40 time of our DBs more impressive to our fans than a Browns DB who makes a game winning tackle?

I believe in doing what ever it takes for the Browns to win the game.

That 40 time is not an advantage if the Browns defense can't make that game winning tackle.



Just make the play, that's what fans care about.

And in general, speed is better than lack of speed when it comes to making plays or being in position to make plays.


Am I the only one who's at least a little concerned that we may not have enough weight on the back end of the DEF to handle the run game on a consistent basis?


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rofl

Not in the NFL he hasn't. And he's certainly not a GM or anything close to that anywhere.


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Devil I believe the theory is to get more players to the ball more quickly in this defense, that should negate any lost weight or muscle at the ball when the tackle is made.

I thought this too, but it makes perfect sense team speed means more bodies at the ball.

Joe has said he doesn't feel like defending the run game is nearly as important as it is to be sound in stopping the passing game with an emphasis on creating turnovers.

I feel certain this has been thought thru real well. It's why we have a player like Billings on the team, a big huge man that you simply can't move in the middle.

But I hear you and I certainly don't dismiss your thoughts, and though I think this has been allowed for.

At the end of the day we are going to find out exactly what Joe has in mind. Let's tee it up and get it on! nanner


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The way teams play is different.

Coach Reid is a perfect example. Speed and motion is used to make a defense guard the whole field. TE's are more atheltic and dangerous in the pass game. Runners are more versitile and used more in the pass game. There are more quarterbacks who are mobile and are a run threat.

Devin White, Micah Parsons, JOK these dudes can fly.

Linebackers have to cover to play three downs.

Woods is basing his scheme on players who can play in space. Nickle and dime packages that will feature extra corners and safety's.

On certain down and distance situations they can load the box or rotate in run stoppers in the interior.

So, that puts the burden on the GM to find the right guys.

Although I expect our defense to play at a different level come Thanksgiving. We will be fine until then.

This KC game will be a early test to see where we are.

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Originally Posted By: GratefulDawg


I hope he does that to Mahomeys tomorrow.


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No worries Mac
Having Delpit, Johnson and Williams will pay multiplying dividends

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Do you mean to tell me not being fast enough to keep up with opposing WR's may leave you in a position where you can't cover them and may not be in a position to make the play? wink

Deion Sanders is in the HoF because he seldom let his guy catch the ball... therefore tackling wasn't so important.


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jc..

Yes, defense does win championships!...ask KC.

Browns vs KC...The Browns defense comes up with the "same old performance" when the game is on the line...

Just another great example of why the Browns won't be winning any Championships if something doesn't change, starting with defensive coaches who are capable of teaching the basics of defense.




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Agreed .. our defense must make more plays when it counts: 3rd downs and 4th quarters. Garrett got there once … we needed about 2-3 more


"First down inside the 10. A score here likely puts us in the Super Bowl. Landry is far to the left as Hooper settles into the slot. OBJ is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Hunt are split in the backfield as Baker takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted By: Dawgs4Life
Agreed .. our defense must make more plays when it counts: 3rd downs and 4th quarters. Garrett got there once … we needed about 2-3 more


He got there at the end when it mattered.

D did their job yesterday, the O failed us.

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Originally Posted By: myka
Originally Posted By: Dawgs4Life
Agreed .. our defense must make more plays when it counts: 3rd downs and 4th quarters. Garrett got there once … we needed about 2-3 more


He got there at the end when it mattered.

D did their job yesterday, the O failed us.

#PutHigginsIn


The Browns defense...
Mahomes completed 75% of his passes for 337 yards, 3 TDs, and a 131.4 QB rating.
Tyreek Hill had 197 yards receiving.
Chiefs converted 69.2% of their 3rd downs
Had 1 sack
Forced 0 turnovers
Forced 0 3 and outs
Gave the offense avg. starting field position of the Browns 18

Funny I'm comparing your line of thinking with the "Defense wins championships" thread... These numbers don't win championships. I'm also not that upset at the defense, overall I think they played ok, the Chiefs have an elite offense

Most people have talked about the mistakes the Browns made.. but if you break it down by unit..

Offense:
Chubb fumble
Baker INT

Defense:
Starting safety getting himself ejected
Johnson getting turned around and giving up a 75 yard hail mary-esque TD right after we had scored to regain some momentum

Special Teams:
Botch punt snap giving them a 15 yard field.

I'm sure in some minds, Baker's mistake was last so it's the only one that really matters.. I don't think that way.


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Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN

Had 1 sack
Forced 0 turnovers
Forced 0 3 and outs


It's those 2 zero's that really stood out for me. Defense wasn't going to smother their offense, just had to give the ball back to Mayfield a couple times.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Originally Posted By: oobernoober
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN

Had 1 sack
Forced 0 turnovers
Forced 0 3 and outs


It's those 2 zero's that really stood out for me. Defense wasn't going to smother their offense, just had to give the ball back to Mayfield a couple times.

As I just posted in another thread, our avg. starting field position was our own 18 (and our best was our own 25) because our defense never made a play to get us any kind of field position. It's hard to keep pace in this league if you have to go 75-80 yards every single drive to score.


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and, yet, we set the pace for much of the game despite this.

We didn't force 3-n-outs, but we held them to a couple of FG's while we scored TD's.
We were cruising, then we got busted in the chops (and shot our own feet) and we never stopped reeling from that. Simple as that.


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Originally Posted By: PrplPplEater
and, yet, we set the pace for much of the game despite this.

We didn't force 3-n-outs, but we held them to a couple of FG's while we scored TD's.
We were cruising, then we got busted in the chops (and shot our own feet) and we never stopped reeling from that. Simple as that.

This brings up a different point that I have been contemplating... last year a few times, specifically the Dallas and Titans games.. we blew them out, until we took our foot off the gas.. then once they started to come back, we couldn't get started again, fortunately we limped home and held them off to win...

There have also been other games like yesterday where we were cruising along until something really bad happens, and we fail to recover..

We seem to play great with momentum but when momentum swings against us, we seem to have a real hard time getting it back.... I thought we did it yesterday with that last TD drive.. 9 seconds later the Chiefs had countered that score. That's how you get momentum back...


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MAC,

You cannot say that about yesterday. Holding KC to 33 points in their home opener, and giving your offense the ball with 3 minutes to win the game, you cannot ask for much more than that. You'd take it in the SB, and you take it here.

DC,

We should've had a TD in the 3rd quarter I believe it was, on a similar momentum play. Deep shot that looked like a bad overthrow at first, but turned out to be Schwartz adding an unnecessary double move.


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With 9 new starters I'm willing to give the D a break for not throttling Mahomey and co. Tell me WHO has kept Kelce and Hill in check...and the depleted o line in last year's Super Bowl made it an outlier imho.

That said, starting off with KC could be viewed as the best thing that happened to our D. We now KNOW what our deficiencies are. And as this D gels it's very clear what needs to be cleaned up. Woods' schemes are a different matter, but I'd be shocked if they don't upgrade along with the development of the players' chemistry.

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Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: myka
Originally Posted By: Dawgs4Life
Agreed .. our defense must make more plays when it counts: 3rd downs and 4th quarters. Garrett got there once … we needed about 2-3 more


He got there at the end when it mattered.

D did their job yesterday, the O failed us.

#PutHigginsIn


The Browns defense...
Mahomes completed 75% of his passes for 337 yards, 3 TDs, and a 131.4 QB rating.
Tyreek Hill had 197 yards receiving.
Chiefs converted 69.2% of their 3rd downs
Had 1 sack
Forced 0 turnovers
Forced 0 3 and outs
Gave the offense avg. starting field position of the Browns 18

Funny I'm comparing your line of thinking with the "Defense wins championships" thread... These numbers don't win championships. I'm also not that upset at the defense, overall I think they played ok, the Chiefs have an elite offense

Most people have talked about the mistakes the Browns made.. but if you break it down by unit..

Offense:
Chubb fumble
Baker INT

Defense:
Starting safety getting himself ejected
Johnson getting turned around and giving up a 75 yard hail mary-esque TD right after we had scored to regain some momentum

Special Teams:
Botch punt snap giving them a 15 yard field.

I'm sure in some minds, Baker's mistake was last so it's the only one that really matters.. I don't think that way.


Giving up a long pass play to 2 Hall of Famers, one of which threw a pass that no other QB in the NFL can throw, isn't a failure imo. It's to be expected that your safety will get beat by Tyreek at least once in a game.

The way our O went to sleep in the 3rd quarter, followed by turnovers, and then failing in clutch time is why we lost. The D was very very good (not great, but just under great) in the first half.

They got worn down and tired in the 2nd half cuz the O stopped doing anything, and yet still managed to hold KC to a field goal on the midfield Chubb fumble turnover.

While I don't think the last INT was the biggest reason for the loss, GREAT offenses win when they get the ball last. We're not there yet, but hopefully soon smile

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Originally Posted By: TrooperDawg
Tell me WHO has kept Kelce and Hill in check...and the depleted o line in last year's Super Bowl made it an outlier imho.


Also, not to be forgotten is that he was still battling the turf toe he got in the game against us, so he wasn't moving as well as normal, either. He wasn't the same Mahomes in the SB.


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jc...

The Browns defensive scheme against the pass "sucked"..allowing Chiefs receivers a 5 yard cushion and a free release off of the line of scrimmage before the Browns defensive backs and LBs began to cover.

The Browns DBs did show man coverage at the LOS in the 2nd half but back peddled at the snap allowing Chiefs receivers freedom to run their routes.

Not sure what Joe Woods calls that pass defense but it sure allowed Chiefs easy first down conversions and touchdowns.

Try comparing the Chiefs pass defense vs Woods D. to see the difference in the Chiefs Defensive scheme vs the Browns pass defense in this game.

Coaching does make a difference between NFL teams that win Championships and those that are just happy to win some games.

Sometimes we blame the players when they are simply doing what they are trained to do by their coaching staff.




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Time will tell, but my feeling is the gameplan for this game was to give them underneath stuff to keep the clock moving as much as possible and eliminate quick strike chunks.

Just like you want to control clock when on O to use up clock, you can try to do that on D as well.


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The Browns should have subscribed
To Belicheks theroy and took
Away Kelce and Hill and let
Somebody beat them.
If Ward cant cover Hill then he doesnt
Deserve that new contract

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Yeah, the KC pass D was so good they made Baker look terrible.

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Originally Posted By: mac

Try comparing the Chiefs pass defense vs Woods D. to see the difference in the Chiefs Defensive scheme vs the Browns pass defense in this game.



Soooo..... they gave up a total of 16 yards less on 6 fewer completions while forcing 2 less incompletions that us.

I don't think it means what you think it means.
oh, and we were torching them with the long ball... something that, with one lone exception, they didn't do to us. Had we not taken away the deep ball like we did, the combination of Mahomes-Hill-Kelce likely would have torched us more, the way they do most teams.


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Looks like the Browns idea of faster LB and DB didn't work out so well against the Chiefs. Allowing Mahomes-Hill-Kelce to "beat us" wasn't such a great idea, was it?

Management went out and hired all this defensive talent, then acted as if they were not willing to use that speed to cover the Chiefs receivers.

It simply looked as the Browns defensive coaches were trying employ some sort of crazy "prevent" defense behind our DLine hoping the Browns rush would get to Mahomes. The Browns ability to blitz, was poor and I'm not blaming the LBs or DBs but the poor design of those blitz attempts.

As a Browns fan, I not such a good "homer" as a Browns fan because I refuse to overlook poor play or poor coaching. In this case, I can't help but to question why the Browwns coaching staff made it easier for Andy Reid and Mahomes to pick the Browns defense apart.

The Browns have a lot of work to do..the coaching stall included.


Last edited by mac; 09/14/21 01:38 PM.



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I agree with this take, and I think it is a solid insight into The Game as it is played. Playing to win is different than playing not to lose. We did both in the second half, with a breakdown in a glorified prevent D and it was too much for us to recover from with our three major issues icing our collapse: the fumble, the bobble, the TD, the pick.

The loss sucked eggs. No Valhalla for us. This stung. We need to avoid this in the future.

And last Sunday.


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Our defense looks soft.

Somebody needs to light a fire under their a$$es!!!!!!!!!!


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Originally Posted By: mac
jc...

The Browns defensive scheme against the pass "sucked"..
+1. (Clapping hands emoji.)
^post of the regular seasons year.

Now. It's not true, but, It FEELS GOOD TO SAY IT!
yeah, feels good to say it.

now, I don't want to read bad words on dtmb. (but I want to write bad words on dtmb.) I could argure with myself both sides, I really don't want to read em,!!! but it would feel relief to write em. (Just to get the anger out) Now, don't really want it, but in a fairy tale world what if I were allowed 13, bad words per year? hmm.
I'd have to save some for the Ravens game. I'd have to save some for the day they get mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, frown, I'd have to save some for draft days, I'm left with about 0.7 bad words, and they didn't even trade away players yet.
and

It's less personal to say defensive scheme. than to say, This is the same Qb who fumbled on 4th and 1 and Kareem Hunt had to make a tackle on the 3 yard line, and apart from that, has shown a proclivity to make these same heaves, when being dragged down from behind.


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Originally Posted By: SuperBrown
Our defense looks soft.

Somebody needs to light a fire under their a$$es!!!!!!!!!!
Except the Front 4 of course.

Maybe, if it weren't a prevent in disguise. A prevent by any other name is still a prevent. There is just no way to play defense in the NFL.

Look at the Raiders, they have 0 safeties back, rushed about 9, and when the ball got thrown, the Db tackled the WR like a tackling dummy. But it took them at least one more play to get the touchdown.


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I'd like to see one of the more accomplished film reviewers on YouTube or TwitFace do a breakdown with All-22 of just what went wrong on that 75-yarder.

I'm gonna bet it wasn't scheme or call, and I'm betting that it was either someone blowing their assignment because things are new, OR it was because of the personnel we had out there? i.e. Was someone out getting an I.V. and they just caught us with our pants down?


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... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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Great Video from G. Bush on how our defense can improve:


Last edited by DogWiliest; 09/14/21 02:46 PM.
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Originally Posted By: mac
jc...

The Browns defensive scheme against the pass "sucked"..allowing Chiefs receivers a 5 yard cushion and a free release off of the line of scrimmage before the Browns defensive backs and LBs began to cover.

The Browns DBs did show man coverage at the LOS in the 2nd half but back peddled at the snap allowing Chiefs receivers freedom to run their routes.

Not sure what Joe Woods calls that pass defense but it sure allowed Chiefs easy first down conversions and touchdowns.

Try comparing the Chiefs pass defense vs Woods D. to see the difference in the Chiefs Defensive scheme vs the Browns pass defense in this game.

Coaching does make a difference between NFL teams that win Championships and those that are just happy to win some games.

Sometimes we blame the players when they are simply doing what they are trained to do by their coaching staff.


I think the D scheme on this first game was to keep everything in front of them and to not let Mahomes hurt us with his legs. Force them to take the underneath stuff, run the clock, prevent the BIG plays, and do your best to pressure Mahomes and disrupt his 2 second release rate any way you can... It worked in the first half, but you can't overcome the turnovers and dumb mistakes against a team that just doesn't make many mistakes. At least our team looked solid all around and Baker looked light years ahead of Lamar and Allen Sunday; he was just short of Mahomes level good in the results IMHO and better in the stats.

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If you are talking about the one play drive for a touchdown. You don't need to see 22, just the instant replay,
the Wr and one defender were running neck and neck,
the chiefs player stopped.
just stopped! on a dime, just stopped, and the Browns player kept running, and that created separation, a ton of it, right in the middle of the field.
And that kind of thing happens, probably opponents practice it.

On Chubbs touchdown, half the field appeared to be unmanned by the chiefs defense.


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Originally Posted By: Bard Dawg
Playing to win is different than playing not to lose.


You do realize that if you don't lose you win, right?


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Not true. You can tie.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Yes. Half a win. Prevent defenses have lost us leads and games, and taking your foot off the gas has hurt us as well. Nothing to win by correcting me, we have seen it repeatedly.

We were not as aggressive or effective in the second half. We didn't look as hungry; pretty sure of the outcome when we appeared to back off. You can overreach admittedly. I still stand by my originnal post. But there is room for latitude.


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I think who your opponent is has a lot do with your strategy in this department. There were games last year where we played what people would call at least a form of prevent defense. We would gain a big lead and then play it safe on both O and D. We won in those games. Yet still a lot of people complained that we didn't win by more points. Which I think is a silly concept.

But I don't think we should attempt something like that against a team like the Chiefs. They can and do score points in bunches with a quickness. No lead is safe if you take your foot off of the gas.

Our D held them to 10 points in the first half. So no matter what anyone says it's not like our D just stunk things up all day as some seem to try and indicate. (Not trying to say you are doing that.)

So I think whether you use a prevent depends on the score and your opponent. In the case of the Chiefs, no score is safe and your opponent can light up the scoreboard at any time.

So in this game against this team I agree with you. However, depending on the opponent I may not.

All in all I think it was the turnovers which were the deciding factor far more than anything else. You just can't keep handing Mahomes the ball like that and expect to win.


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Originally Posted By: THROW LONG
If you are talking about the one play drive for a touchdown. You don't need to see 22, just the instant replay,
the Wr and one defender were running neck and neck,
the chiefs player stopped.
just stopped! on a dime, just stopped, and the Browns player kept running, and that created separation, a ton of it, right in the middle of the field.
And that kind of thing happens, probably opponents practice it.


In hindsight it was a bad pass: short and behind the receiver, but Hill made it a positive.

As for Chubb's run, that was just an unbelievable play. I don't think I've ever seen a defense so totally out of position.

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Today it was announced that McDowell is the starter.

That is amazing. I have not heard a story like his before.

Out of football four years. Never played a NFL game.

And this guy becomes the starter on this team. That is something.

In regards to defense in Sunday's game.

Malcolm Smith trying to cover Kelce??

No can do.

I am surprised that Woods did not put JOK in man against Kelce.

I need to watch the game again. I really watch how we tried to defend Kelce.

I remember a couple plays where Smith was playing off man coverage. No contest.


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JOK got beat a couple of times by Kelce in the first half alone.

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I agree with all that. We got snakebite again where several bad events snowballed beyond our control.

We are not on different pages. Too cautious too soon is still a wager.


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And yet it didn't feel we did that bad...was shocked at the bad stats you just ran off.

It was obvious that the difference was the Turnovers especially the first two...Bakers was least effective as it didn't give them a score just a Crappy way to end a game as we had 4 downs to move the chains and make a last second score to win the game...just was deprived of that. Other two turnovers hurt more as in momentum changes

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Newsome, JOK, Schwartz and others. Berry is awesome
Get off early start and we will go all the way! SB baby!

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Just heard that Patrick Mahomes named AFC offensive player of the week...

The Browns defensive coordinator should get some of the credit for Mahones award for employing his "no contact" defense, allowing Mahones best receivers free release off of the line of scrimmage.

When your opponents QB earns offensive player of the week honors, THAT IS NOT an indication of how well the Browns pass defense played or that the defensive scheme employed by the Browns DC was a "success".

Woods and whomever is responsible for our defense deserve to be called out!




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Originally Posted By: waterdawg
JOK got beat a couple of times by Kelce in the first half alone.
Badly, one replay JOK was on kelce and kelce ran at him and cut inside quick as a receiver, JOK just stood there flat footed..It was a welcome to the nfl moment for him for sure..TE's are better than most receivers he played against in college. That being said, I still think our LB core is close to if not the worst in the NFL, huge oversight by berry, but I can see that he was probably counting on his line and secondary to pick up alot of slack. They just didn't against KC. But we def. need at least one above average LB, I think we will see it more against teams that can run or have decent Te's. I think the Dline will get better once they get into game shape. Not playing at all during preseason really makes it hard to get used to timing and endurance. The secondary issue will be more about who's supposed to be where and help who in zone. That will come too. We have talent in both those units, we just don't have any talent at LB. This is where a good DC earns his money and masks that weakness. I still think Woods scheme is decent part of our problem


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MAC,

I mean, the Chiefs scored under 30 like 1/3 of their games last year, and we were installing like 6 new starters (7 once Ronnie went out), plus new rotational guys. The D handed the offense the ball with a chance to win at the end.

I would've taken low 30s and the ball to win before the game started. Wouldn't you?


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Originally Posted By: dnadawg
and we were installing like 6 new starters (7 once Ronnie went out), plus new rotational guys.
flamingmad
I heard Mary K go into a similar comment or excuse on a broadcast.

The excuse of new faces doesn't sit well. Eventually, the product is the product. The team chose the new faces.
What is ready is ready and plays. What is not, does not!

LeCharles Bentley was not a better Cleveland Brown than Mitchell Schwartz, because he never got the opportunity. iirc.
Eventually! What is out there, is out there.
And if they need more time, if they are an unfinished product, if they are a half done casserole in the oven that needs more time to cook; the team must own that.

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Browns: Joe Woods isn’t on the hot seat, yet

by Chad Porto2 days ago
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Joe Woods has been getting heat from fans as of late.
One of two things is true; either Joe Woods’ system is not compatible for the NFL or the players he has are not as good as advertised. What this means is if the Browns’ defense continues to be exploited as the Chiefs did in the season opener, either Woods or Andrew Berry won’t be here much longer. The team spent too much money on this defense and drafted too many prospects for this to be a recurring thing.

That doesn’t mean that Woods’ is on the hot seat currently. It’s far too early in the season for that. It doesn’t mean, however, that it isn’t on the table at all. If the Browns continue to struggle against the defense as they did on Sunday against the Chiefs, moves will have to be made.

This team is far too loaded with too much expensive talent to just keep letting this stuff happen. With teams like Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and Arizona on the radar still, Cleveland can’t afford to get batted around anymore.

Joe Woods still has the chance to prove his defense can work
The Browns fell apart defensively on Sunday, there’s no other way to describe it. While the team needs to be able to beat the Chiefs and stop them defensively, it isn’t the worst thing that could happen.

Patrick Mahomes may very well be the best quarterback in the NFL right now, regardless of his weapons. Teams are going to struggle against him if they aren’t able to get pressure, which the Browns didn’t ever really get.


Is that on Woods or on Myles Garrett and Jadeveon Clowney? Remember, Clowney is coming off of a few bad seasons. He’s never been a big-time pass-rush guy, to begin with, and he played most of his prime next to J.J. Watt, the best defensive player of their generation.

Clearly, Woods isn’t the only issue.

For those who will go to the “…IT’S ONLY WEEK 1!”, it’s not.

We are now well over 52 weeks of Woods on the Browns. The issues that plagued the team on Sunday were there in the heartbreaking loss to the Ravens, they were there in the first game against the Steelers, and they were there in the playoff match against the Chiefs. These issues have been present for quite some time now.

Soft defenses, no blitzing, a lack of containment on mobile quarterbacks. It’s not new. It’s a prevent defense and the only thing those types of defenses do for you is prevent you from winning.

The team has a lot of big games where that defense will have a chance to shine, so Woods still has a chance to prove he’s worth keeping around. With the Lions, Raiders, Packers, and Patriots on the schedule, the Browns should be able to fully flex their defensive might. If they can’t and some of these bottom-feeding teams end up spanking the Browns defensively, then that’s when it’s going to be time to let Woods go.

Houston’s up, and despite what they looked like in Week 1, there’s no reason to suspect they can do that again against a good defense. So if the Texans hang big numbers on Cleveland in the home opener, then Woods will have a much shorter drive to pick up his things.

From segament 3 of this article...

The entire defense

Just trash. That’s the best way to describe this unit after today. It may get better, that is an absolute possibility. It may not. That’s also a possibility. After all, the same issues that plagued them all season long reared their heads once again. They played soft coverage and allowed a lot of underneath stuff, and had no ability to get to Patrick Mahomes on a consistent basis. Either Joe Woods is a bad coach, or Andrew Berry has yet to give him the players needed to run the defense. One of those is going to be found true and if the team defense continues to be this awful, one of, or both men, may find themselves gone. Giving up six scoring drives out of eight possible is horrid. Chiefs or not. After all, how are you going to get to the Super Bowl if you can’t stop an offense like the Chiefs? So it being the Chiefs isn’t an excuse.

I'm not the only Browns fan that feels the need to comment about the Browns defense. "Soft release"..allowing the Chiefs to run their pass patterns without laying a hand on them until they turn for the pass, is beyond "soft" defense.

It looked like some sort of analytics driven "prevent defense" that was created over the long summer.

I'm not blaming the players because I believe they executed the defense as the Browns coaching staff taught it.

Last edited by mac; 09/16/21 09:43 AM.



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Originally Posted By: leadtheway
Originally Posted By: waterdawg
JOK got beat a couple of times by Kelce in the first half alone.
Badly, one replay JOK was on kelce and kelce ran at him and cut inside quick as a receiver, JOK just stood there flat footed..It was a welcome to the nfl moment for him for sure..TE's are better than most receivers he played against in college. That being said, I still think our LB core is close to if not the worst in the NFL, huge oversight by berry, but I can see that he was probably counting on his line and secondary to pick up alot of slack. They just didn't against KC. But we def. need at least one above average LB, I think we will see it more against teams that can run or have decent Te's. I think the Dline will get better once they get into game shape. Not playing at all during preseason really makes it hard to get used to timing and endurance. The secondary issue will be more about who's supposed to be where and help who in zone. That will come too. We have talent in both those units, we just don't have any talent at LB. This is where a good DC earns his money and masks that weakness. I still think Woods scheme is decent part of our problem


Him and every other defender who has ever came up with the task of stopping Kelce...the guy is the best O TE that I can remember, he is unstoppable

I did miss those plays as I guess I just have come to expect Kelce in success mode so when it happened it was like onto the next set of downs what else is new Kelce getting a first downs and Mahomes high percentage of success goes to Kelce on 3rd down.

jmho


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Newsome, JOK, Schwartz and others. Berry is awesome
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THROW,

I see you ignored the fact that the D held the Chiefs (in comeback mode) to 33, despite being handed a short field late in the game, and still gave the offense the ball back to win it.

There is also a comparison to be made with the contentious discussion in the Baker thread. The defense, whatever mistakes they had made leading up to the end of the game, Myles & Clowney got that last sack when they desperately needed it. Of course this is not the whole story, but it's a damn important part of it.


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I agree with you, but I'll add that if complaints about overly passive secondaries and confused defenders are still a thing in the back half of the season, then I'm taking a slightly different tone with Woods.

The one thing that ridiculous article mac just posted got right was the Woods vs Berry argument. It's either Woods isn't putting together the right D scheme, or Berry isn't giving him the right players. I can tell you right now the answer to that question (if it even needs to be said) should we still be asking later on.


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I remember thinking that JOK looked like he had potential in the game to do stuff well, but seemed like he looked really, really raw, which is understandable. I just hope the learning curve picks up.


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Oh for sure. No way those defensive cushions are acceptable late in the year, and even against good offenses. My HOPE for Woods' scheme, which we know will be mostly zone, is that guys reach a level of comfort where they can trust their eyes/instincts and make some big plays. i.e. Just because you play zone doesn't mean it cannot be aggressive. We have the speed to close, mostly. But early on, I'd rather they were conservative if they aren't sure about what they are seeing as a play develops.


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jc...

Last edited by mac; 09/16/21 11:31 AM.



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j/c

You can't have three turnovers, putting the ball in Mahomes hands and then turn around and try and lay the blame for the loss at the feet of the D.

In the first half the D held them to ten points. In the second half we had three turnovers and people act like that wasn't a huge contributing factor as to why our D gave up so many points. 90 degree weather you can't be forcing your defense to spend that much time on the field.

I'm not quite sure what people are thinking. I know what I'm thinking. I'm thinking they're using their emotions more than actually thinking this through. Sure the D needs work and needs to tighten up. But let's not pretend that our O didn't have as much or more to do with this loss than the D.


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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
j/c

You can't have three turnovers, putting the ball in Mahomes hands and then turn around and try and lay the blame for the loss at the feet of the D.

In the first half the D held them to ten points. In the second half we had three turnovers and people act like that wasn't a huge contributing factor as to why our D gave up so many points. 90 degree weather you can't be forcing your defense to spend that much time on the field.

I'm not quite sure what people are thinking. I know what I'm thinking. I'm thinking they're using their emotions more than actually thinking this through. Sure the D needs work and needs to tighten up. But let's not pretend that our O didn't have as much or more to do with this loss than the D.



THIS.

READ IT AGAIN.


22-10 was the Halftime score.
The Browns Defense had held the Chiefs to NINE POINTS in the entire first half. Our offense seemed to cruise down the field and into the endzone while they looked like they had to fight for every yard they got.

Three turnovers. One ended the game, and two gave them the go-ahead.
One was on an insanely short field and one was roughly at midfield. The short field put the Chiefs up by five. The midfield one kept us from putting seven on the board, and the way we were moving it on that drive, we weren't going away with less than three.

The defense's one major miscue was the Hail Mary "punt" to Hill on JJ3 that resulted in 7. It's a broken play by us and a GREAT play by them. That simply doesn't happen with the QB about to go down like that with any other QB/WR combo.

So, the vaunted Chiefs and we had a handful of major miscues that fed them points in all three phases, but because one of them was Defensive we put all the blame in that one box? That makes no sense. The scheme and calls were working for the opponent we were playing, despite it not looking the way people wanted it to look. Because of this defense, it DC, it's scheme, and its calls, we had this game LOCKED.... until a handful of mistakes unlocked it and handed it away, and make no mistake - we had this thing locked well enough that no SINGLE mistake could have undone it. It took all of them.


Note: we didn't lose because of the Refs, for once. We lost because individuals didn't do their jobs on four occasions. Individual failures.
That's it.


Edit: 22-10 was the halftime score. My bad, all points made stand as-is.

Last edited by PrplPplEater; 09/16/21 02:31 PM.

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Chiefs historically have been a second half team.. they make exceptional adjustments. There was no way they weren't going to score points. True that there is plenty of blame to go around, but letting a qb complete 75% of his passes and be in running for offensive player of the week and have a rating of 131 is not doing your job. And yes, scheme is an issue. TB gave everyone the blueprint to beat KC, and we didn't even attempt any of it. KC was the worst scenario to start a season with high expectations. It really puts a damper on everything when you lose. Screw the NFL for doing that. That being said, this week we have the chance to win and get back on track and hope to see them again in the playoffs. Bright side is this defense will not face another offense that talented the rest of the year. So there will be plenty of time to get things straight by playoffs. Just need everyone to stay healthy and for Berry to get us an MLB that doesn't suck. Cutting Wilson and just giving JOK the reps would be awesome. I rather live with growing pains of a guy with a high ceiling than watch wilson look like the worst LB in the nfl he is.


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My opinion has been from jump that if Wilson and Taki were still on this team there was still a lot of work to be done with this defense.

It's also my opinion that both of these players have failed at the most fundamental part of being a LB and that is tackling they both suck at it.

For that reason I would be happy to see either or both gone. Accountable is hard to see when they both are repeatedly put in a position to make a play and fail because they can't tackle.

Like everything nothing is always but LB's have to be good tacklers and they simply are NOT.


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jc..

Just where Joe Woods came up with this lame defensive scheme that allowed the Chiefs best receivers to run free in our secondary needs to be explained.

After all the upgrades in personnel to the defensive side and that was the best defensive scheme Woods could come up with???

In short, Woods may have exposed himself as anything but an elite DC. Andy Reid and Mahonnes feasted off of Woods "prevent defense" and hopefully Browns fans never see it again.

I located a couple of short videos showing more of Woods defense against the Chief's best receivers and we can see just how easy it was for the Chiefs to take advantage of Woods defense.

The Browns D against Tyreek Hill actually looked as though our middle LBer had the job of covering Hill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DogmoOs_y0I



This video is of Chiefs TE Kelce and how he exploited the Browns D.





Allowing the opponents best receivers to have a free release off of the LOS and space enough to run their pass routes without a Browns defensive defender touching them...it is a losing defense and shows that the Browns defensive coaching staff is not up to the task of producing a Champion caliber defensive unit.







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Not just me to recognize the pass coverage problems Joe Woods has. I may have been one of the first to recognize how poor the Browns pass defense was, but the more time fans and commentators took to actually study the video of the game, others saw the same issues I pointed out.

Joe Woods lame excuses put forward in the article below doesn't help explain just what kind of defense he attempted to run.

NO EXCUSES, "JOE"...fix what is wrong and do your part to win this week vs the Texans.



Browns defensive coordinator Joe Woods on defending the Chiefs: “You can’t cover them all”

Posted by Mike Florio on September 16, 2021, 5:54 PM EDT
LINK

The Browns nearly beat the Chiefs, but they didn’t come close to shutting down receiver Tyreek Hill, who caught 11 passes for 197 yards on Sunday. Browns defensive coordinator Joe Woods discussed the challenge of defending the Chiefs when meeting with reporters on Thursday.

“You can’t cover them all,” Woods said. “There are a lot of weapons out there so again, when you game plan, there are certain calls that take away certain things they do, but there may be some guys who get some one-on-ones. This is part of the game, but when you have a team that has so many weapons across the board, you just have to be very selective when you choose to double somebody.”

They didn’t double Hill nearly enough. Woods explained the biggest play of the day, a 75-yard catch-and-run in which safety Josh Johnson found himself trying to cover Hill alone.

“It was an empty formation so we were in a certain empty adjustment,” Woods said. “We had it covered, and we kind of adjusted it during the game so we had everything covered. [Patrick] Mahomes did a great job just staying alive. You saw the throw. He threw it up there, and it just came down. At the end of the day, they made more plays than we made, especially in critical situations.”

If the Browns hope to get past the Chiefs in a postseason rematch, they’ll need to be the one making more of the plays. That won’t be relevant until January. The Browns have to put a pin in their desire to finally beat the Chiefs, focusing instead on doing everything they can to get to that point.




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Originally Posted By: mac
Not just me to recognize the pass coverage problems Joe Woods has. I may have been one of the first to recognize how poor the Browns pass defense was, but the more time fans and commentators took to actually study the video of the game, others saw the same issues I pointed out.

Joe Woods lame excuses put forward in the article below doesn't help explain just what kind of defense he attempted to run.

NO EXCUSES, "JOE"...fix what is wrong and do your part to win this week vs the Texans.



Browns defensive coordinator Joe Woods on defending the Chiefs: “You can’t cover them all”

Posted by Mike Florio on September 16, 2021, 5:54 PM EDT
LINK

The Browns nearly beat the Chiefs, but they didn’t come close to shutting down receiver Tyreek Hill, who caught 11 passes for 197 yards on Sunday. Browns defensive coordinator Joe Woods discussed the challenge of defending the Chiefs when meeting with reporters on Thursday.

“You can’t cover them all,” Woods said. “There are a lot of weapons out there so again, when you game plan, there are certain calls that take away certain things they do, but there may be some guys who get some one-on-ones. This is part of the game, but when you have a team that has so many weapons across the board, you just have to be very selective when you choose to double somebody.”

They didn’t double Hill nearly enough. Woods explained the biggest play of the day, a 75-yard catch-and-run in which safety Josh Johnson found himself trying to cover Hill alone.

“It was an empty formation so we were in a certain empty adjustment,” Woods said. “We had it covered, and we kind of adjusted it during the game so we had everything covered. [Patrick] Mahomes did a great job just staying alive. You saw the throw. He threw it up there, and it just came down. At the end of the day, they made more plays than we made, especially in critical situations.”

If the Browns hope to get past the Chiefs in a postseason rematch, they’ll need to be the one making more of the plays. That won’t be relevant until January. The Browns have to put a pin in their desire to finally beat the Chiefs, focusing instead on doing everything they can to get to that point.


When the head guy in charge says something like Woods did there...you know they are in over their head.

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
j/c

You can't have three turnovers, putting the ball in Mahomes hands and then turn around and try and lay the blame for the loss at the feet of the D.

In the first half the D held them to ten points. In the second half we had three turnovers and people act like that wasn't a huge contributing factor as to why our D gave up so many points. 90 degree weather you can't be forcing your defense to spend that much time on the field.

I'm not quite sure what people are thinking. I know what I'm thinking. I'm thinking they're using their emotions more than actually thinking this through. Sure the D needs work and needs to tighten up. But let's not pretend that our O didn't have as much or more to do with this loss than the D.


That's a great and very fair point. I certainly didn't see it that way during and immediately after the game, but what you're saying is definitely fair.

I think I expected the D to look slow/disjointed at the start of the season and went from my assumptions.

Some of the assignments certain defenders had on certain plays were head-scratchers (Walker, as one of the slowest LBs we have, trying to cover Kelce was downright comical at times). Also, with the mismatch in the trenches being what it was, I felt we didn't have any sort of answer for Reid's adjustments. The Chiefs got enough out of their mismatches (pass-catchers) while I don't think we got enough out of our mismatches (translation: not enough sacks/fumbles).

I think your point about the offense sharing the blame (even though they overall played a helluva game) is very valid. That said, I do look for the D to tighten things up over the course of the next couple weeks and for them to get more opportunistic as they gel.


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I'd like to see us sign Reuben Foster. I feel we can use him.

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What I see as the next opponent we face with a very high powered O is the Cardinals. Seeing the difference between how we defend them verses how did did against the chiefs will tell me a lot.


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Originally Posted By: WSU Willie
Originally Posted By: mac
Not just me to recognize the pass coverage problems Joe Woods has. I may have been one of the first to recognize how poor the Browns pass defense was, but the more time fans and commentators took to actually study the video of the game, others saw the same issues I pointed out.

Joe Woods lame excuses put forward in the article below doesn't help explain just what kind of defense he attempted to run.

NO EXCUSES, "JOE"...fix what is wrong and do your part to win this week vs the Texans.



Browns defensive coordinator Joe Woods on defending the Chiefs: “You can’t cover them all”

Posted by Mike Florio on September 16, 2021, 5:54 PM EDT
LINK

The Browns nearly beat the Chiefs, but they didn’t come close to shutting down receiver Tyreek Hill, who caught 11 passes for 197 yards on Sunday. Browns defensive coordinator Joe Woods discussed the challenge of defending the Chiefs when meeting with reporters on Thursday.

“You can’t cover them all,” Woods said. “There are a lot of weapons out there so again, when you game plan, there are certain calls that take away certain things they do, but there may be some guys who get some one-on-ones. This is part of the game, but when you have a team that has so many weapons across the board, you just have to be very selective when you choose to double somebody.”

They didn’t double Hill nearly enough. Woods explained the biggest play of the day, a 75-yard catch-and-run in which safety Josh Johnson found himself trying to cover Hill alone.

“It was an empty formation so we were in a certain empty adjustment,” Woods said. “We had it covered, and we kind of adjusted it during the game so we had everything covered. [Patrick] Mahomes did a great job just staying alive. You saw the throw. He threw it up there, and it just came down. At the end of the day, they made more plays than we made, especially in critical situations.”

If the Browns hope to get past the Chiefs in a postseason rematch, they’ll need to be the one making more of the plays. That won’t be relevant until January. The Browns have to put a pin in their desire to finally beat the Chiefs, focusing instead on doing everything they can to get to that point.


When the head guy in charge says something like Woods did there...you know they are in over their head.



Normally I find myself in agreement with most of what you say Willie but this I can't sign up for.

I think no I know this defense will continue to evolve as the season goes on, and this seems to escape you based on you're reply to it.

In other words this is the very 1st game this unit had played together, while Woods did know the players he certainly didn't and still doesn't know how this unit will preform together as a team.

In truth Johnson had Hill covered if the ball had been thrown in front of Hill the outcome on that play would have been quite different. Hill slammed on the brakes and Johnson to that point in time had Hill well covered continued on. I believe the throw was actually pretty poor but Hill adjusted and Johnson did NOT.

This unit will get better you have to believe that at least?

What and when Woods calls coverages will change as well as he learns how his players can best fill out his calls in game situations.

The season IMO is about growth on any team and the Chiefs are a tough matchup for the very best in the NFL this defensive unit is truly brand new going against the best offense in the league and they did pretty well. They along with Woods need to do better, and they will. I guess that is my point.

The worst part about all of this were the mistakes, but mistakes can and will be fixed. We didn't lose this game because of Woods defense that is for sure.

If you expected them to perform at their peek of performances in the 1st go out of the gate I think you will likely always be disappointed. Take away any one of the plays that the Chiefs had go there way in the last 10 minutes and we leave KC with a W. In the long haul I truly believe that losing may be a blessing for everyone coaches players everyone.

There is IMO good losses this will be a good loss in the long haul, just you watch.

We can't lose reason because we didn't like the end result.

I feel pretty good about this team and I believe in the people who are putting the pieces together.

I have no desire to be a MMQB, these guys know what they are doing and by the time the Card's show up will be a much much better team especially on the defensive side of the ball.

I want to see that unit evolve and develop I think they are going to be great I really do but reason tells me the 1st go wasn't going to be their best that is still out there and they will find it.


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I believe people grossly underestimate how tough the NFL really is. I mean two to three mistakes decide most games. Mistakes are not simply turnovers. It can be penalties and poor play decisions.

With that said and if you think a team can walk into an opposing stadium with nine new defensive players and win without creating a turnover, I think you are being unrealistic. I respect your opinion if you think differently.

I thought the defense played well. Do I think they played up to their potential? Absolutely not. True, I like Coach Woods to be a little more aggressive. I don't think that is his M.O. Coach is very calculated. The more he gets comfortable the more we see. It's Ok. This defense is not supposed to be the shining star.

Also remember, most of last year the Browns used the opposing offense to chew up clock dinking and dunking between the twenties. I wish I knew their stats in the red zone. I do know points allowed in the fourth quarter weren't pretty. This is where they need to improve.

It sucked playing the best offense in the first game, but it is what it is onto the second game.


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They still need time to gel in game settings. D will hit it's stride around game 6 or 7.


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Quote:
It sucked playing the best offense in the first game


I respectfully disagree.
I think it was the very best thing this team's D could have asked for.

When you face the best O in the NFL, you see the best the league has to offer. That exposes what you need to work on, going forward. I think facing KC Game One was the best crucible this team's D could fiund itself in. Game One sets the bar. Now this team knows what it must beat in the post-season.

Tool your team to beat the best, and you become the best.

I have to disagree, bugs. It didn't suck at all. It was the best thing for us to experience. The season has 16 more games... and Elves will learn from this loss in ways that will prep them for tough games down the road.

Sucks to be 0-1 after one game, for sure. BUT: I trust our coaching staff to make the most of our game tape and analytics. This game was lost on two or three D breakdowns, a muffed punt, and a QB pick thrown in 'heroics time.'

School is never a bad thing.


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Good insight with which I agree. We needed a dose of realty to shake off the Kool-aid. We need to win, well, a number of things, and make sure we don't fall in love with our own interviews.
I suggested in an earlier post that I expected a loss here in game the first, but we use it to get revenge when it counts in the playoffs. Half a prophecy is better than none. We proved we could own them until we beat us. You are your record.

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Point taken.

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Titans at Seattle.
Russell Wilson, Seahawks Qb. clearly, clearly, clearly, tackled in the end zone or intentional grounding from the end zone.
The NFL. won't allow it.

They've not been fair considering the defense in the events of intentional grounding calls, for some 20 or more years.

10 plays later, give or take, the Titans won anyway, but! it should have been on that Safety, when Russell Wilson was tackled in the end zone.

... There was no forward progress, ( I know what forward progress does, and I know the referees call.) But! The guy never ran forward, he was running backward the entire time! He didn't even spin around to throw until he was already in the end zone. Clearly a safety.
A scoring play.
The game should have been over, as it was sudden death overtime the moment both teams had possessed the ball.


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Browns Defensive Issues Coming into Focus
Two games into the season, the Cleveland Browns have two main problems they need to improve on defense in order to take meaningful steps forward into becoming a championship level defense.
PETE SMITH

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-maven-features/defensive-issues-coming-into-focus


Through two games, the Cleveland Browns defense has malleable personnel to match what opponents are doing, but issues with getting stops on third down and a pass rush not capitalizing continuously stick out regardless of who is on the field.

Much will be attributed to lack of familiarity with the scheme as the Browns overhauled their defense this offseason. The Browns have nine players playing in their scheme that were not part of the team last year.

Some of the issues the Browns have result in a lack of players simply doing their job and trusting their teammates to do theirs. That should come with time.

When asked about it from a defensive line perspective in the post game presser, Myles Garrett said, “A little bit. D line is pretty much new except for me and (DE) Porter (Gustin). It’s tough to get that chemistry right away. It’s inspiring to go into that film room and see something we have been working on and it work cleanly. It just didn’t get there in time”

One consistent issue the Browns defensive line has shown is an inability to stay in appropriate pass rushing lanes. The worst offender through the two gams appears to be Jadeveon Clowney.

Both against the Kansas City Chiefs and Houston Texans, Jadeveon Clowney has rushed up the field too far on the offense's right, opening up space for the quarterback between the guard and tackle to either step up in the pocket to throw or simply run.

It's allowing the quarterback to effectively eliminate the pressure chasing from the left side. If the quarterback cannot step up in the pocket, the pressure from the opposite defensive end, often Myles Garrett, continues to be a threat.

In the game against the Chiefs, the Browns defensive line was disruptive, putting a ton of pressure on Patrick Mahomes throughout the game. Gap integrity let him off the hook at times while he simply made a handful of plays only he can make, but the defensive line had an impact.

Conversely, playing the Texans at home, the defensive line was simply not as effective as it needed to be. Takkarist McKinley was invisible. The interior did not offer much. Garrett was quiet. He was doubled much of the day, but by his standards, which include competing for the Defensive Player of the Year, he had a poor game.

This was at the heart of the Browns issues on third down, which has been the single biggest issue on defense through two games. 3rd-and-long, the down and distance, the situation this defense has been specifically built to excel, has been the single worst aspect of the the team's performance. In their two games, the Browns are stopping opponents just 37 percent of the time on third down.

Garrett was caught off guard when asked if it was fair for defensive coordinator Joe Woods to be taking heat, responding, "For what?"

The reporter, Marla Ridenour of the Akron Beacon Journal continued, "The fans are up in arms saying the defense doesn't look like you're playing up to your potential."

"It's on both of us. We gotta play to the best of our ability whatever calls that he gives us. If we don't make the play, that's not only on him. That's on all of us. So, no, you can put the blame on everyone on the field, all 11 of us and him as well. It's on all of us. We're a team and we're in this together."

The Browns defensive line clearly has the ability to play far better than they did against the Chiefs, but some of the issues they are having, including chemistry and gap responsibility must improve as well.

The linebacker position is in flux as a result of injuries, but Mack Wilson continues to play. He was downright awful against the Chiefs. His run defense has improved this year and against the Texans, he was often where he was supposed to be, but simply a little late.

The problem is that Wilson is the worst coverage linebacker on the team, which is particularly problematic as he plays WILL. The one adjustment the Browns have made is to try to have him on the field for situations teams are more likely to run the ball, then get him off the field for obvious passing situations.

Wilson is playing less overall. The presence of Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah is certainly a major reason for that. To this point, Of the 43 defensive snaps JOK has played, only 11 of them were run plays. He's blitzed four times and been in some form of coverage for 28.

Sione Takitaki has been arguably the team's best linebacker to this point, but he only plays SAM, so he's not on the field all that much. Takitaki has played MIKE in the past, though the results have been less than stellar. After a productive training camp and offseason, they might feel compelled to find more reasons to put him on the field without playing a third linebacker on the field.

The secondary is the most interesting aspect of the defense right now because it's the one that is always changing. Against the Chiefs, the Browns largely operated in zone, trying to keep their prolific offense in front of them, forcing them to take longer drives and potentially make mistakes.

Outside of the 75-yard touchdown on a broken play, the Browns were reasonably successful in their goal. They were also able to force a pair of field goal attempts and a pair of punts.

Against the Texans, the Browns played man. They allowed Denzel Ward and Greg Newsome to play the outside receivers and dared the quarterback to beat them. Unfortunately, in part because of some effective play by the Texans and a lack of a consistent pass rush, the Texans had success going after Ward and drew a big defensive pass interference penalty against Newsome.

Ultimately, this seems to be where the Browns want to be on a regular basis. Be able to effectively man up opposing teams in an effort to force quarterbacks to hold onto the ball longer while freeing up defenders to either blitz or provide extra help somewhere else. The results were by no means a disaster, but they need to keep improving. Brandin Cooks turned in 9 receptions for 78 yards. Not an unreasonable day for their best weapon to have, but hardly ideal for Ward, trying to make the case he warrants a significant contract extension.

The issue that bit the Browns was a combination of failing to get home with the pass rush, opening up rush lanes for the QB while the defense was playing man. Tyrod Taylor's 15-yard touchdown exploited this issue as he was given a wide open running lane with no one looking at him. He was presented with a wide open lane to the end zone and he didn't waste it.

The other notable change was the debut of Grant Delpit. After missing last year with an Achilles' injury as well as week one against the Chiefs, he made a handful of impact plays, including a sack fumble. Delpit was often used as in the role of a second level defender. Often attacking the line of scrimmage, he made a handful of key stops. Delpit was able to capitalize on blitz opportunities including a blind side hit on rookie quarterback Davis Mills that resulted in a fumble.

Delpit still has a tendency to dive at opposing ball carriers, which can have some feast or famine results. On the sack, he was utilized as a blitz threat not unlike he had often been at LSU during his collegiate career. They also sent him downhill blitzing the offensive interior.

The Browns did offer a sneak peak of what they hope will become a regular feature for this defense, having JOK and Delpit on the field at the same time. They get two fast, rangy players that have demonstrated excellent instincts and a knack for making plays.

Against teams like the Baltimore Ravens or the Buffalo Bills and Chiefs if they see them in the playoffs, that combination could be extremely valuable against teams that offers a quarterback that can make plays with their legs as well as their arms. The Browns get added coverage ability, but the range and closing speed becomes critical to track down ball carriers or to catch quarterbacks before they have a chance to escape the pocket.

With both playing the first snaps of their career, it's going to be a process to get them fully up to speed, but the early results and timely use of their abilities has provided a nice boost for a defense always looking for more help, particularly at the second level.

Last but certainly not least is Joe Woods, the defensive coordinator.

Woods' DNA dating back to his time with Wade Phillips is to win with the defensive line and drop guys into coverage. That is who he wants this defense to be. And while he does blitz, it's not unfair to ask if he does it enough. Further to that point, the Browns have players like JOK and Delpit that can specifically offer that as a skill.

The goal is to have their defensive line simply play better and dominate the line of scrimmage, so they don't need to blitz, but Woods can do more to incorporate the blitz and continue to keep teams off balance, attacking more rather than entirely working in terms of trying to play a prevention style of defense.

Just like the players, Joe Woods needs to grow along with the talent this team has amassed to most effectively utilize it, a process that is going to continue for the entirety of this season. Right now, his most immediate focus needs to be on improving on third down.


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Originally Posted By: myka
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: myka
Originally Posted By: Dawgs4Life
Agreed .. our defense must make more plays when it counts: 3rd downs and 4th quarters. Garrett got there once … we needed about 2-3 more


He got there at the end when it mattered.

D did their job yesterday, the O failed us.

#PutHigginsIn


The Browns defense...
Mahomes completed 75% of his passes for 337 yards, 3 TDs, and a 131.4 QB rating.
Tyreek Hill had 197 yards receiving.
Chiefs converted 69.2% of their 3rd downs
Had 1 sack
Forced 0 turnovers
Forced 0 3 and outs
Gave the offense avg. starting field position of the Browns 18

Funny I'm comparing your line of thinking with the "Defense wins championships" thread... These numbers don't win championships. I'm also not that upset at the defense, overall I think they played ok, the Chiefs have an elite offense

Most people have talked about the mistakes the Browns made.. but if you break it down by unit..

Offense:
Chubb fumble
Baker INT

Defense:
Starting safety getting himself ejected
Johnson getting turned around and giving up a 75 yard hail mary-esque TD right after we had scored to regain some momentum

Special Teams:
Botch punt snap giving them a 15 yard field.

I'm sure in some minds, Baker's mistake was last so it's the only one that really matters.. I don't think that way.


Giving up a long pass play to 2 Hall of Famers, one of which threw a pass that no other QB in the NFL can throw, isn't a failure imo. It's to be expected that your safety will get beat by Tyreek at least once in a game.

The way our O went to sleep in the 3rd quarter, followed by turnovers, and then failing in clutch time is why we lost. The D was very very good (not great, but just under great) in the first half.

They got worn down and tired in the 2nd half cuz the O stopped doing anything, and yet still managed to hold KC to a field goal on the midfield Chubb fumble turnover.

While I don't think the last INT was the biggest reason for the loss, GREAT offenses win when they get the ball last. We're not there yet, but hopefully soon smile

Bullcrap no other QB in the NFL can make that throw.. darn near every other QB in the NFL could make the throw that Mahomes made for the 75 yard TD.. he was rolling, "saw a hand", and heaved it down the field 30-40 yards.. most QBs wouldn't ATTEMPT it because it was blind luck.. but all of them could do it.

Our O didn't go to sleep in the 3rd Qtr.. we kicked off and promptly gave up a seven and half minute TD drive. We got the ball and had gained 30 yards on 3 plays before the fumble... then it took five and a half minutes to get the ball back after a FG... and that was the entire 3rd quarter... The offense didn't go to sleep, the defense did. I mean, the offense might have been sleeping, waiting for a chance to play but that would have been on the sidelines so I don't know.

Our next possession was a nice 75 yard TD drive.. good, the offense looking to take back some momentum, and that lasted.. *checks notes*.. 14 seconds it took the Chiefs to score a TD..

But sure.. the defense gave up 13 minutes of TOP in the 3rd quarter.. gave up a 14 second TD drive to answer our TD drive.. forced 0 turnovers.. allowed scores on 6 of the Chiefs 8 possessions... but yea, let's go with, the D was very very good


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Did the Browns run any snaps with only a 3 man D line?

There are teams every week who in some cases only have 3 DL on the field, if you are locked in to 4 or more DL on the field every snap then that may be taking a cover player off the field.

"you can't cover them all." ??


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Originally Posted By: OldColdDawg
They still need time to gel in game settings. D will hit it's stride around game 6 or 7.


This is my hope... it's a lot of new players... hoping they'll start to gel after a few games.... the offense had to take a few games last year to gel as well...


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Quote:
Woods' DNA dating back to his time with Wade Phillips is to win with the defensive line and drop guys into coverage. That is who he wants this defense to be. And while he does blitz, it's not unfair to ask if he does it enough. Further to that point, the Browns have players like JOK and Delpit that can specifically offer that as a skill.

The goal is to have their defensive line simply play better and dominate the line of scrimmage, so they don't need to blitz, but Woods can do more to incorporate the blitz and continue to keep teams off balance, attacking more rather than entirely working in terms of trying to play a prevention style of defense.

Just like the players, Joe Woods needs to grow along with the talent this team has amassed to most effectively utilize it, a process that is going to continue for the entirety of this season. Right now, his most immediate focus needs to be on improving on third down.


Woods sure doesn't have a problem pointing fingers at the defensive players, making them responsible for the the poor performance of the Woods defensive 'scheme' in the first two games.

It didn't take long for Tyrod Taylor to begin exploiting Woods defense from the beginning of the game. Once again Ward was playing zone/prevent defense, 10 yds 'off of' the Texans rookie WR, allowing him a free (untouched) release off of the LOS, and to remain untouched until the Woods prevent defense finally tackled him 32 yds down the field.

A few plays later, the Texans are 3rd and 9 and again pass toward Ward, who may have been playing man defense, but again allowed the Texans rookie WR an untouched release off of the LOS, resulting in a first down for the Texans.

Two plays later, touchdown for the Texans.

Once Taylor went out at half time and rookie Mills came in, the Texans were no longer able to exploit the Browns soft coverage by CBs Ward and Newsome, who were trying to play Woods defense.

JMHO, but a good coach tries to mold the talent of his players to the defensive scheme that is being run. Woods needs to look in the mirror and admit he needs to rethink the scheme he is asking the CBs to run.

Ward is being made to look like one of the worst CBs in the NFL as Woods defense is based on the DLine/LBs getting to the QB. Newsome doesn't look like a first round draft pick either as he attempts to play soft/prevent defense.





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The good news, after some began to question the defense Woods concocted for the Chiefs game, opinions were mixed between a slap on the back and praise for Woods defense...but once analysis and writers took the time to review the video, opinions began to change.

The Browns management went to great length to bring in the type of players Woods wanted..they extended contracts and signed free agent talent as well drafting defensive talent to help produce the quality of players Woods said he needed if he was going to produce a playoff caliber defense.

Again, a good coach analyses his talent and adjusts the scheme accordingly. If that does not happen, Stefanski and Berry may need to become more involved. Both Stefanski and Berry played DB in college so it's not like they don't recognize the issues with Woods D.

IMO, defensive adjustments are needed, asap....mac




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I'm not quite sure what it is about "taking time to play as a unit on the field" is escaping people.


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That's just MAC and his instand gratification generation. tongue


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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I'm not quite sure what it is about "taking time to play as a unit on the field" is escaping people.


This isn't junior high school football. They've been together since August. They had the chance to "get together as a unit' in the pre-season and chose not to...they have played two games thus far...it appears that they are running the same defense as last year.

I may be completely wrong...but nothing is escaping "people" like me in this regard. It's a results league...and the results on the D side of the ball are not good.

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Oh yes, it is escaping people. You seem to be trying to say that practice is the same thing as in game experience. Well it's not. Learning your assignments and the play book is one thing. Applying that, learning what your team mates will do and how they react is quite another thing.

I guess you didn't see what Greg Newsome II said about it. Pretty much the exact same thing I'm saying. But I guess you think you know more about what's going on with the team more than he does. Go figure.


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Wait a minute... I thought the story was that preseason games weren't necessary to prep the D for the regular season. Are we flipping back to saying that they are in an attempt to explain why the defense isn't playing up to expectations?

And quit it with the Newsome quotes. What else is the guy going to say... that his coach is a moron? He isn't going to say much on the matter.


I'm still in wait-and-see mode with Woods, but to act as if the D's performance vs Houston is anything other than a negative is being deliberately obtuse. While some posters are going a little over the top, honest criticism is warranted.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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First, what and who's story were you reading that said preseason games weren't needed for any team not to "prep" for the season? For the most part it's all of the preseason injuries and the fact that playing more games per year was not something the players wanted. So they extended the season by one game and in a trade off reduced preseason by one game. I mean if you read different authors and opinions you'll get different stories. Let's not pretend your version was the consensus.

There has been more than one comment by Newsome. In both cases they almost mirror what many people on this board have said all along. I mean that's "the story", right?

And in case you missed it nobody has said anything close to their performance was not negative. Honest criticism is just fine but if one is keeping it honest, they need to keep perspective and the situation into account. If not it's a knee jerk reaction and has nothing to do with honesty.

The situation is we have a group of players that have seen many new players installed which will take some time to learn to play as a unit.

By mid season if a lot of improvement isn't seen I will be glad to join those questioning Woods. But to jump the gun and attack him before this defense has time to gel as a unit I think is premature and unfounded.


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Gelling has nothing to do with play calling to your team's strengths and understanding situational football. "Gelling" is a fancy term for excuse making and for internet posters to sound smart.

There was zero reason to wait until the end of the game to bring pressure against a third round rookie QB who didn't expect to play. If they don't get home, run into the teeth of the OL, bump into each other, give up a bomb over the top, then maybe you can discuss "gelling".

Woods and/or Stefanski don't appear to have any idea of what they are doing on D. What's the identity? Let's be passive and hope the other team makes a mistake?

I am watching a bland, vanilla D with no life and no seeming rhyme or reason.

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Yes, they should look like a finished product from the opening snap of the first game. Anything and everything else is just an excuse.


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Originally Posted By: mac
The good news, after some began to question the defense Woods concocted for the Chiefs game, opinions were mixed between a slap on the back and praise for Woods defense...but once analysis and writers took the time to review the video, opinions began to change.

The Browns management went to great length to bring in the type of players Woods wanted..they extended contracts and signed free agent talent as well drafting defensive talent to help produce the quality of players Woods said he needed if he was going to produce a playoff caliber defense.

Again, a good coach analyses his talent and adjusts the scheme accordingly. If that does not happen, Stefanski and Berry may need to become more involved. Both Stefanski and Berry played DB in college so it's not like they don't recognize the issues with Woods D.

IMO, defensive adjustments are needed, asap....mac



You could be talking about Stefanski because he is the head coach.

He hired Woods. I assume he likes what he brings to the table.

The point I am making is if things don't improve as they stand now, Stefanski is allowing it to happen.

It's still a bit early to throw in the towel on Woods and the D, but with each game it is getting closer.

I suppose it is going to have to take a miserable loss before anything major is changed.


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The stories coming out of last year's training camp where we had no preseason and restricted practice time, new coaches and systems, and the offense still came out looking organized and disciplined. The same stories that had our starters playing very little (if at all) this preseason.

Before I go further, are you saying we have to wait for this defense to gel so they can get to a level where they're not getting carved up by the likes of Tyrod Taylor? Taylor, being a QB that was signed by Houston this past offseason....


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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If you couldn't see the stark contrast from the first half of last season compared to the second half of last season from our O, I certainly can't help you with that. It was obvious to almost everyone that our O improved greatly from the first half of last season to the second half of the season.

I'm saying that you can't expect a defense to do things they aren't ready to do. Just like trying to say that in 2020 the O should have been a finished product in week 2 or 3 when we all saw with our own eyes that just wasn't so.


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In a corresponding move to placing WR Jarvis Landry on injured reserve, the Cleveland Browns signed defensive end Ifeadi Odenigbo to their active roster. The team was able to add Odenigbo to their initial practice squad after 53-man rosters were set at the end of the preseason.

His addition wasn’t the team taking a chance on a young player who hadn’t produced in the league. Instead, Odenigbo had a breakout year in 2019 with the Minnesota Vikings and followed it up by starting 15 games for the team in 2020.

While his sack total dropped from 7.0 in 2019 down to 3.5 in 2020 some of that was due to Danielle Hunter, the Vikings’ top pass rusher, missing all of last year.

Odenigbo is a Centerville, Ohio native who was once claimed by the Browns but never saw the field in a regular-season game. While he may never be a full-time starter in the NFL, his production in two seasons with Minnesota showed some quality play:



As you can see, Odenigbo won with a variety of moves off the edge while showing a good motor to keep pursuing the quarterback.

So far in 2021, Cleveland hasn’t gotten after the quarterback much at all. The team has combined for a total of three sacks despite the additions of Jadeveon Clowney, Takk McKinley, Malik Jackson and Malik McDowell to the defensive line that already included Myles Garrett.

One of those sacks belongs to Joe Jackson who was able to get after Patrick Mahomes late in the third quarter of Week 1. Unfortunately for Jackson, that sack was one of only 18 plays that he has seen on defense. While Garrett and Clowney have had over 90 snaps each and McKinley has over 50, the team hasn’t found a use for Jackson much.

Could Odenigbo, who was with Kevin Stefanski during his best season in 2019, provide some relief to the top edge rushers and keep them fresh? Will defensive coordinator Joe Woods find a way to have three or four of those guys on the field more often to try to create pressure?

Odenigbo proved in 2019, with Hunter rushing the passer with him, that he can get after the quarterback. The Browns would love to see some of that in Cleveland sooner rather than later.


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I never said the 2020 O was a finished product week 1. Don't put words in my mouth. I said they came out organized and disciplined... plus the improvement from first half to second was largely due to Baker's progression.

So going by your non-answer, you are saying that our D playing down to a lesser (by just about every measure) opponent is simply part of the gelling process?


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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j/k

I don't think the concern about the defense is that people are upset that its 'struggling'. I think people are starting to get concerned because it doesn't seem to look a whole lot different than where we left off last year.

Don't get me wrong, I think on an individual level we are seeing something noticeably different in the talent level. But we have seen 2 weeks n a row in the later minutes of the game that they can be aggressive and successful. Obviously Delpit can't be set to blitz every play, but consistently not stopping the opposing offense on 3rd and long is an issue.

Now one thing that I don't think has been discussed which would be relevant is how does Woods install his defenses? Does he focus on the basics then add from there? Or is he the type to throw it all at the players in one go and have them get proficient via OJT?


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Long arms, active, non-stop motor, strong...... we could use some more of that in the rotation.

Anything that upgrades the roster.



For the defense:

It's perfectly fine for people to be concerned and voice concern while still understanding that it's a work in progress. Yes, they haven't played together and they need to "gel", whatever that magical word truly entails (e.g. it's called learn the defense well enough to just do your own job and be comfortable trusting the others to do their job, if you understand their role and your role and how they work together, you know why you just have to do your job and that's it). At the same time, the DC needs to put guys in position to be successful based on what they are currently able to do with success. If you can't be flexible in your approach to using your scheme and personnel for the opponent you're facing and the situations you're seeing, then you're wrong.

Now, what we have is what people WANT to see (fireworks and a boatload of 3-n-outs), and then there is what we are seeing. What we don't know is WHY. It is entirely possible, and even likely, that there are actual reasons they are running things the way they are. It could be our personnel, it could be their personnel, it could be what tendencies tell them, it could be being proactive in protecting deep, it could be playing it safe while you feel out a player or coach you haven't played before so that you know how aggressive you CAN be without screwing the pooch. By all means, there should be some concern, because we DO look disturbingly like we did last year, and a lot of the same problems persist despite a drastic upgrade in talent & ability. On the flip side, we are also seeing better Defense from this group, too... our Run Defense has been solid, and the team speed is lightyears from where it was. The guys fly & swarm to the ball, now.

In the end, I think it's gonna be like starting an old car. It's gonna be kinda rough for a bit, but once it's been running for a bit, it will be smooth and reliable.


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Like I said, if we are still seeing the same 6-7 weeks in to the season, then we have reason to think something is drastically wrong.


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Quote:
Could Odenigbo, who was with Kevin Stefanski during his best season in 2019, provide some relief to the top edge rushers and keep them fresh? Will defensive coordinator Joe Woods find a way to have three or four of those guys on the field more often to try to create pressure?


Studying video of Odenigbo and it looks to me that he can play anywhere on the defensive line and be effective at putting pressure on the QB.

It looks as though the Browns have activated Odenigbo and should be available against the Bears. Maybe he can add enough of a pass rush to help the defense put in a decent performance...let's hope so!




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We've got frickin' Miles Garrett and Jadaveon Clowney. If we can't put pressure on the qb with those 2, another team's cut isn't the missing piece of the puzzle.


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Browns Defensive Future is Dime and the Future may be now


The Cleveland Browns ran more dime against the Houston than they did the entire 2020 season. It's the future defensive coordinator Joe Woods wants and it may be coming sooner than expected.

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-maven-features/browns-dime-defense-future


The Cleveland Browns utilized dime more against the Houston Texans than they did the entire 2020 season and due to injuries at the linebacker position, they may need it far more and far earlier than they initially planned.

When Joe Woods was hired to be the Browns defensive coordinator ahead of the 2020 season, his goal was to be able to eventually play a base dime defense with three safeties and three corners on the field. Injuries, including to then rookie Grant Delpit made it an impossibility for that season.

For 2021, the Browns acquired significant upgrades with their personnel to run it, including the signings of John Johnson III, Troy Hill as well as drafting Greg Newsome and Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah. Between those two rookies and then Delpit, who had yet to play his first game and missed a significant amount of training camp as he not only rehabbed his Achilles' injury but dealt with hamstring issues, Woods hedged a little bit on just how much dime the Browns might play.

Against the Texans, the Browns gave the first glimpse of what the Browns hope to be able to run consistently. It also provided the first look with Delpit and JOK on the field at the same time.

What immediately stands out is just how fast the group is. Both in terms of raw speed as well as instincts, JOK and Delpit often play faster than they time. They process information and react quickly. Both players were utilized in college at multiple positions, which is valuable for the Browns.

That has allowed them to disrupt plays in the backfield from different angles. Delpit, for example, attacked and helped blow up a play right up the middle. The biggest play of the game for him was blitzing off the edge to blow up an unsuspecting Davis Mills in the backfield, causing a fumble in the process.

The key to all of this working is the defensive line. They are a massive group with giant defensive ends who are incredibly difficult to reach and then a 317 pound Malik McDowell in the middle, who has been the biggest revelation on the team. Malik Jackson, who was a nice acquisition in his own right, has lost some of his luster simply because of the attention paid to players like McDowell and Jadeveon Clowney, but he's still a valuable player at defensive tackle.

The dime defense is best utilized when the Browns are playing with a lead. Against the Texans, the Browns were up two scores when they brought it out to finish out the game. However, against some teams like the Buffalo Bills, Kansas City Chiefs and Baltimore Ravens, the Browns may utilize it far more liberally to match their speed on the outside and try to limit damage done by athletic quarterbacks with their legs.

In that scenario, the defensive line becomes critical because they have to give the Browns an honest look at stopping the run. Two games into the season, they've been up to the task. The Browns are only allowing an average of 3 yards per carry, which is fourth in the league.

That's not just in the dime look, but against the Texans in particular, the Browns didn't exactly have great run defending linebackers in the game. So if the Browns can still stop the run while in dime, they have a significant advantage with their coverage options and speed on the field. Combining that with the ability to blitz with players like JOK or Delpit or Troy Hill, it gives the Browns and Woods a lot of options on how to play the opponent.

The best thing the Browns can do as a defense is dictate what the offense is able to do. If the Browns stop the run, the opponent is forced to throw into the teeth of their defense, which is the exact matchup they want. The team is still figuring itself out in terms of assignments, trust and showing how special they can be, but if these early trends continue, the Browns will be extremely well suited to take on the teams that are considered the favorites not only in the conference as well as the Super Bowl by the end of the season.

If the Browns find themselves in a game where they feel they must play bigger to stop the opposing running game, they will have a healthy Anthony Walker and Sione Takitaki back in the next couple weeks, which will give them the ability to match in terms of size and physicality.

For now, whether it's the Chicago Bears potentially with Justin Fields as the quarterback, Justin Herbert and the San Diego Chargers or Kyler Murray leading the Arizona Cardinals wide open offense over the next month, the Browns may be playing a significant amount of time. The more comfortable they get, the more likely it could become their base look.


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I do believe I read that the Browns played more man coverage vs Houston than they did last season and vs KC.

I'm not 'adequately equipped' to criticize the preferred scheme of an OC. I can only comment on the results I can see, which this past weekend was them looking a little questionable against obviously inferior talent.

Again, I'm doing my best to hold off judgement on Woods and the D overall, but what they did (and didn't do) vs Texans was worriesome.


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Originally Posted By: Ballpeen
Like I said, if we are still seeing the same 6-7 weeks in to the season, then we have reason to think something is drastically wrong.
this is fair. It’s not fair to expect our defense to be top level right out of the gate. The hope is we can be humming by the division games .. but if we are still struggling, honestly Woods has to get the axe


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The Browns defense is a work in progress, the players are new to the scheme and they have been very limited in the time they have played together.

Will get there, but it's not the instant success we had hoped for, and in hide sight this was very predictable....


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Originally Posted By: oobernoober
So going by your non-answer, you are saying that our D playing down to a lesser (by just about every measure) opponent is simply part of the gelling process?


Just because you don't like the answer that was given doesn't mean it's a non answer.

I'm saying that the D may be being installed in increments. Little at a time. But rather than fans having any patience to see if it develops they're playing Chicken Little and screaming that the sky is falling after two games.


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well, the defense was installed last year. And again this year.
There are new guys, but they're surrounded by guys that have been here, so it shouldn't be as big of an issue as it would be in a Year 1 scenario.


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Certainly not "as big". But there are certainly a lot of new moving parts. Especially in the secondary where the bulk of the comments have been directed.

I'm more with those who want to see how this D looks mid season and make an assessment at that time.

As was written in the above article, more dime was ran against Houston. To me that looks more like the D is being installed gradually. More evidence needs to be presented in order for me to make an informed opinion one way or the other.


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j/c...

I'm no football guru, but I just don't understand why the Browns seem to just refuse to blitz.

All last year were heard "a defense predicated on creating pressure up front". Plenty of built-in excuses with the lack of talent and injuries on the back end, but I can't count the times I watched offenses march up and down and wondered "well, how much worse could it be". We finished third from the bottom of the league in blitzing the QB.

We've rounded-out the defensive roster and still just seem to refuse to blitz. Meanwhile we're at the bottom of the league in allowing scores on 50% of our opponents drives. I'm not playing Chicken Little, I know these things take time, I just worry that this is a way of life.

I was reading an article today about the Browns wanting pressure to come from up front (same 'ol story), so they don't have to blitz. Whatever happened to wanting to blitz.

I worry (a little) that this may be bigger than Woods -- that this may be a mindset from the top down based on analytics. I realize blitzing, as a way of life, can be largely "feast or famine"... but I tire of seeing the the top defenses always at the top of the blitz rate chart. If you can't make QBs in this league uncomfortable, you'll be in a lot of track meets with teams you should dominate, and sometimes helpless against teams that match you talent-wise. The season is young, but I've already watched two games thinking "what do you have to lose" as the opponent has marched up and down the field.

What am I missing??


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Just as you can live by the blitz you can die by the blitz. If their O can figure out it's coming, you will more than likely get burnt by it.


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This is as close as I'll get to criticizing the scheme itself....

If an offense 'knows' that the pressure will basically only be coming from the D-front, doesn't that make it infinitely easier to mitigate? I also wouldn't mind sending more LB's in to rush as those guys, as they are, don't seem to be doing much else.


Overall (believe it or not) I'm also in wait-and-see mode (if nothing else, we only have to wait a couple days to see a little more). I was just shocked to see how anemically we played against a team like the Texans.


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If you take the LB'ers out of coverage it will open the middle up even more. And even though it appears that isn't possible, it is. wink

If you look around the league you will see teams that get the bulk of their pressure from the front. Other teams know they do that but they can't stop it. With Myles and Clowney on the edges we should be getting more pressure. With the way the front manages to stop the run it's not like they don't have talent.

If anything I would suggest they move Myles and Clowney around more. Use them both at edge and inside to help find mismatches.


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What a bunch of CYA fluff put out to cover for Woods lack of a defense.

Below is a look at a video example of a dime defense employed in the NFL.


Click this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCGTLnb6AXg

to watch the NFLs example of the Dime Defense



Is this an example of whaT Woods is attempting to run?

For one, our CBs are playing a soft prevent defense and Mahones and Tyrod Taylor are eating Woods defense for lunch..but at the expense of our two (first round) "COVER CORNERS".

Last edited by mac; 09/23/21 12:38 PM.



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rofl

Browns Defensive Future is Dime and the Future may be now

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-maven-features/browns-dime-defense-future


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