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Not based on performance. I see... wink


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J/C - Considering the absolute murderous mess we have made of the QB position for near on two decades, I find the criticism of Mayfield absolutely bemusing. He's a really good player at a position where it is - see last 20 years - hard to find a good player. Will he get us over the line? Who knows? However, like many of you, I still feel 1-31, Brady Quinn, Brandon Weeden, Hue Jackson because - hellloooooo - it was only a few seasons ago! The turn around is frankly astounding. I'll take some really nice, competitive football with a chance at posteason football for 500 please.

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Not based on performance. I see... wink


Certainly not based on stats - provided - or maybe the comebacks don't count unless they are on the 3rd Sunday of a month? Maybe that'll be the new set of goal posts?


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Originally Posted By: dnadawg
BONEFISH,

I don't get how so many of you are missing the obvious. Baker will continue to be characterized as a guy that cannot put the team on his back, or even as a "choker," until he starts winning more games in the 4th quarter. It's a plain fact. No use whining about it.



100% Agree. It doesn't matter how we Baker fans feel, the talking heads will have their whipping boy until Baker shuts them up. They just bash him because it makes headlines, where bashing the likes of Big Ben, Aron Rodgers, Urban Meyer, ect. don't at this point.


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I didn't know we started counting some posters as talking heads. But okay. wink


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Originally Posted By: dnadawg
Lot of butthurt here, but it's all good. I've said my piece, and my mind is only changing based on game results.


Well, you'll get over the butthurt. It takes time. Stay strong, man.

Since you've already been given game results, I have to assume that it isn't actually game results you're looking for, though.


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Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in! L

PRPL & PIT,

I'm the one that provided the results that he's 3-6 against "quality" teams, none since 2019, in those comeback chances. Our QB is very good and light-years better than anything we've had (why do we even need to compare him to garbage?), but he happens to be 3-6 in these close games against good teams. Those are results that (I assume) none of us want to continue. Including Baker and Stefanski, if you'll listen to their pressers.

MGH,

I agree with you that it is unfair to automatically discount the Cincy games or the Skins game (or other 4th qtr comebacks that are slipping my mind at the moment) just because they aren't winning teams. That is a true case of moving the goalposts, because once you're in the spot, the pressure to go down and score is the same. But it is what it is, and life is unfair. That is how the NFL works...you get credit only when leave the doubters nothing to say.

Finally, I would be interested to hear what all of you have to say about Lamar and his posteseason performance narrative. It's the exact same situation. Will you all admit that is an unfair characterization of Lamar's career, but that until he consistently wins in the playoffs, people will keep on with that talk?


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GC. Baker could:
Emotions in check, more cerebral, Game situational awareness to get better. Ten scoring drives in a row, same execution up 15 points or no matter the score, same uregnecy to score, same attack rate every drive. Every quarter, every possession looking the same. Every opponent, no ups, no downs, execute, set up, score.

Two Bulls! stood at the top of a hill, overlooking the herd of cows. The young bull said: "Let's run down there and get one of those Cows!!"

and the Old Bull said, No, let's walk down there, and get all of them."

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I've stayed out of this convo until now, but I just gotta interject something here.

Quote:
The term is NOT limited to 4th Q comebacks. It can be something that happens throughout the game...when a QB does things throughout the game to keep his team in winning position. It does not HAVE to be flashy or last-miunte-ish to exist.


Thank You.

CLE won 11 reg season games (and one playoff game) last year.
80% of that team's scoring opportunities ran through Player #6.

I now rest my case, because You just made my case.


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Originally Posted By: Clemdawg

I've stayed out of this convo until now, but I just gotta interject something here.

Quote:
The term is NOT limited to 4th Q comebacks. It can be something that happens throughout the game...when a QB does things throughout the game to keep his team in winning position. It does not HAVE to be flashy or last-miunte-ish to exist.


Thank You.

CLE won 11 reg season games (and one playoff game) last year.
80% of that team's scoring opportunities ran through Player #6.

I now rest my case, because You just made my case.



People get to rag on Baker and get to be wrong too. Most of us couldn't stand up for more then a minute to what NFL players must endure.

The one thing I know is next week and the week after or until Baker doesn't get it done when the fan thinks he should they will rag on him, it's what fans do. Reason has NOTHING to do with it. When we beat the snot out of Houston they will love him again, that's how it works always has likely always will.

It's a sign of fandom gone sideways.

Rogers won MVP last year think there aren't fans unhinged over his performance on Sunday? There is only one known cure, WIN!


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Well as a fan I am damn glad to have Baker as my QB. It irks me (when it shouldn't) that "fans" and media are fickle and judge him in the harshest light. No QB is perfect - even the likes of Manning, Brady and Mahomes make/made bad decisions and bad throws - and they are as close to the top of 'absolute best' I have seen play. They all played on better teams than Baker has up till this season ... and maybe their fans went bat chit crazy after a loss to a top team where there was a bad throw ... but I doubt it was anything like Baker gets subjected to. As others pointed out - Baker creates strong emotions in people and they love to hate him. Love to limit the praise he receives. Love to critique every bad throw in ways that they don't do to other QB's. I still 100% believe there are many Buckeye fans that still hold a great deal of hate in their heart for Baker no matter what he does in a Browns uniform.

And it often seems to come wrapped up in a disingenuous rationale of "All I'm saying is if he's going to take us to a Super Bowl these are things that .... ". Which I think is poppycock, because there is a LITANY of issues and challenges Baker has faced since joining the 1-31 Browns as a rookie that no other QB has ever had to face in the start of their NFL career. I mean the list is long and old, but some of the highlights: Not practicing AT ALL with the first team before being thrust into a starting role ... having the worst HC in the history of the NFL his rookie year, only for him to be replaced by an even worse influence in Freddy in year 2. Guess I'll leave it there - Baker looks good in 1 game of this season, the first with the same HC and OC and playbook in his career. I'll repeat I am ecstatic Baker is our QB and believe great things lie in his and the Browns future.


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Originally Posted By: mgh888
...I still 100% believe there are many Buckeye fans that still hold a great deal of hate in their heart for Baker no matter what he does in a Browns uniform. ...


Yep. From both Browns fans and non-Browns fans.

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Originally Posted By: dnadawg
BONEFISH,

I don't get how so many of you are missing the obvious. Baker will continue to be characterized as a guy that cannot put the team on his back, or even as a "choker," until he starts winning more games in the 4th quarter. It's a plain fact. No use whining about it.

Cannot bring Rogers into this...it makes you look silly right now. Once Baker has MVPs and SB wins under his belt, he will be given leeway. And guess what, if/when that happens, the media and NFL fans will revise their view of his history and praise him. But not until then. The NFL is "what have you done for me lately," and his last 3 chances for comeback wins against quality teams, he has come up short. Those are the facts. And until he starts winning them at a good clip, or has a signature moment that everyone is watching, where he drives to win the AFCC or SB, the narrative will not change. In the meantime, we just have to quietly accept it and be happy he is our QB.



I am a big time believer in Baker from the get go...but I agree with this statement. He will always be scrutinized until he starts winning those games.

I am so po'd cause he was going to do just that and get into ESPN fame with a last second ending with us scoring. I know the kid has it and his time will come - for me and I've seen a lot of QBs, its not a matter of WILL it happen just a matter of WHEN...right now Couch had more game ending winning drives than Baker but who is the better QB...no doubt Baker.

His time will come and it will happen this year but mark you this.

It will be said...oh do it against a top Defense as for some reason I remember Baker winning one against the Bengals who were playing great against our sucky D as was Baker against theirs. All forget that and what I saw was a great QB playing top notch against us Burrows maybe best game. Baker came back to win that one.

Not sure if there were more. Once our run game took over the open no huddle pass game was shut down.

jmho we got a great one right now playing Good football and some of you (undedrstandably) need to see that great before believing in that Greatness. Me, I saw his game prior and saw how he overcame adversity and had all against him and he prevailed.

Walk on and walk on going from QB#5 to starter... The kid is accurate and sometimes that works against him as he was sure and confident he was going to make a play as he escaped to his left - not knowing there was a defender able to dive at his legs and make an ankle swipe right at the moment of his throw...because he has that ability he would not have been looking to make a play but quite franklly I don''t want that QB not in that moment not in a game winning drive. I want a QB to hold onto that ball last second and make it happen.

Just terrible timing but his and our day will come! Quite frankly the teams that we would make that drive easily are teams we will have more than a 2 score lead in that 4th qtr.

jmho


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Originally Posted By: WSU Willie
Originally Posted By: mgh888
...I still 100% believe there are many Buckeye fans that still hold a great deal of hate in their heart for Baker no matter what he does in a Browns uniform. ...


Yep. From both Browns fans and non-Browns fans.


This is easy for me to say because I'm really not into college football at all, so to be in and among the OSU-obsessed (many of which have no ties to the school other than residing in the same state) can get surreal.


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EO,

Thank you, and I agree with what you said. I'm only like 90% on whether its a matter of WHEN, not IF, but it's 90%, and people here act like this is some massive and unjustified reservation.

And part of the reason I think about this is that, although I know the media is there for eyes and ears, not for accuracy, I really enjoy the NFL discussion between games. And it is disappointing to know that over the next several weeks, until MAYBE the Cards/Chargers, nothing he does on the field will be given much credit. A significant part of my 90% confidence that this is a non-factor in the long run is that he embraces that, rather than getting down on himself. But it still makes the between-game talk frustrating as a fan.


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j/c:



"We'll see how much Brat...errr..........Baker improves w/out Hue in his way."
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Originally Posted By: dnadawg
EO,

Thank you, and I agree with what you said. I'm only like 90% on whether its a matter of WHEN, not IF, but it's 90%, and people here act like this is some massive and unjustified reservation.

And part of the reason I think about this is that, although I know the media is there for eyes and ears, not for accuracy, I really enjoy the NFL discussion between games. And it is disappointing to know that over the next several weeks, until MAYBE the Cards/Chargers, nothing he does on the field will be given much credit. A significant part of my 90% confidence that this is a non-factor in the long run is that he embraces that, rather than getting down on himself. But it still makes the between-game talk frustrating as a fan.


I think your 90% is on target. Last season one of my observations about Ski's offense is that it has 1 gear. Controlled, methodical, cohesive... what it missed last season was the deep vertical threat. I predicted in the offseason that the reason we were holding on to Njoku is because he was going to be a part of that element his year. Its only 1 game but I think my prediction has merit. The addition of Schwartz and comeback of OBJ will definitely give us that dimension.

How this relates to Baker...

Rookie Baker would attempt the throws to make these big comebacks because he didn't know better. Right now Baker is a reflection of the offense, controlled, methodical. He's not quite yet (90%) to the point where he throws the ball that Mahommes does on that 75yrd TD to Hill. That throw was a high risk, high reward, high chance of catastrophic failure. JJ3 had perfect position on that play. If he looks for the ball 2 steps before he actually did, he INTs it. A QB only makes that throw when he a) doesn't know better or b) unapologetically takes that risk.

Baker is neither. Give it a few more games I think and he'll bridge that remaining 10%.

I just hope this offense doesn't spoil us too much.


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This is the silliest bunch of irrational thinking that I have ever seen.

Why don't we follow up with...

Good teams don't need 4th quarter comebacks in the first place.
Baker does not play defense either.. Last time I checked, the Browns were pretty terrible on defense. All i have to say is Sendejo.

He is fine as a QB. I would rather have him on the team than be facing him in the 4th quarter.

All QB's don't magically pull every victory out of the hat. Dak was going to be a hero for the Cowboys last week, until Brady got the ball. Dak did his job, but the Cowboys defense could not stop Brady.


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I really like Baker.

And not sure why it gets to me, but the Haters are going to continue to hate. I love this team and how we've been built but we're almost too good. I don't think anyone can stop us but us.

Even if Baker balls out and performs like the top level QB he is and heaven forbid he wins the MVP or the Super Bowl the Hate excuses are already built in. We have one of the best rushing attacks in the league coupled with the best offensive line. We have the highest paid receivers in the league. I mean any QB should win with that, correct? These are the excuses...

I could see the narrative after that interception trying to march down and win the game. Forget that we should have never been in that situation giving up 10 points off turnovers. That loss after that play was always going to be Baker's fault we lost. Nevermind he was the best quarterback in that game leading up to the final drive.

And I agree he can't throw that interception even if it wasn't his fault and the defense made a terrific play.

The point is the haters will still have a case regardless how this season goes. "If he doesn't win with this team he never will" and "If he wins it all with this team is because almost every QB could win with this supporting cast."

The sad thing for me however is that some of these haters are our own fans. Some fans don't deserve Baker.

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No one can stop us but us you said. Yes I agree. That's what happened at KC. We don't fumble those 2 times we win.

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Originally Posted By: dnadawg
Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in! L

PRPL & PIT,

I'm the one that provided the results that he's 3-6 against "quality" teams, none since 2019, in those comeback chances. Our QB is very good and light-years better than anything we've had (why do we even need to compare him to garbage?), but he happens to be 3-6 in these close games against good teams. Those are results that (I assume) none of us want to continue. Including Baker and Stefanski, if you'll listen to their pressers.


Of course none of us wants that to continue. That's why we need a better D performance. But you see, football is the ultimate team sport. Two out of the three turnovers in the Chiefs game were not caused by Baker. Giving up 33 points was not done by Baker.

Yet your focus seems to be on Baker.


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From my eyes I see the evolution of young quarterback.

Baker's story is well known to all of us Browns fans.

You don't get to where he is, in the manner he got there, without true grit.

He came up the hard way to get to be the number one pick.

He was no Trevor Lawerence.

Once in the NFL his path would have ruined many a quarterback prospect.

I heard this analogy and believe it rings true.

When a company is losing money and they hire a new CEO. Only improvement to the bottom line counts. That is how that person is judged. How has the company improved?

No matter the situation. If someone is brought in to fix failure. They are judged by what improvement was made.

Baker did not come to the NFL with the greatest physical traits. He got there by winning. You don't get to pick
"elite teams" to beat. You play to win a game.

We all know the Browns record before Baker. We all know the failure to even find a quarterback.

So, here we are. Baker is playing in the same system with the same coaching staff for the first time ever.

Look around at all the top guys. Brady, Peyton, Mahomes, Lamar, Wilson, Ben, Allen, Brees, Rodgers. Name any you like. Has any of them walked the path that Baker has?

Yet, from 1-31 what has he done?

Baker has busted his butt to improve himself. He is a natural born leader. Listen to his teammates.

This is his team. The coaches know it. The players know it.

The Browns are now in position to win. We would not be here if it were not for Baker.

People will talk. When you have coverage 24/7/365. You gotta talk about something.

IMO Baker will bring a Super Bowl to Cleveland.

I have been waiting since 1964 when I was seventeen.

That is all I care about.

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man yall putting way too much of this L on Bake. the defender got a lucky swipe at the foot. it happens.

Bake had an amazing game. thats without OBJ or our LT for most of the game. i see the haterade is on sale buy one get one free this week.


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Remember when Peyton kept losing to the Patriots and couldn't get over the hump? Until he finally did? I am sure there were Colts fans who were calling for Peyton's head as well.

Some people still have no idea how good Baker really is.

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Originally Posted By: devicedawg
Remember when Peyton kept losing to the Patriots and couldn't get over the hump? Until he finally did? I am sure there were Colts fans who were calling for Peyton's head as well.

Some people still have no idea how good Baker really is.


I'm not one who heaps praises on players without seeing them actually earn it. Watching Baker finally get good coaching and with a good supporting cast, last season gave me cause to see the evidence of what he was actually capable of. That second half of the season gave me a view of everything I needed to see to firmly believe Baker is the answer.

Many great college players never transfer that success to the NFL. But I understood why Baker never had a legitimate opportunity to progress with a constant turnover in coaches and systems. So while I wasn't ready to pile on the praises, I wasn't ready to hang the kid out to dry either.

At this juncture I can't see anyone doubting his ability or continued progress moving forward.


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Originally Posted By: ChargerDawg
This is the silliest bunch of irrational thinking that I have ever seen.

Why don't we follow up with...

Good teams don't need 4th quarter comebacks in the first place.
Baker does not play defense either.. Last time I checked, the Browns were pretty terrible on defense. All i have to say is Sendejo.

He is fine as a QB. I would rather have him on the team than be facing him in the 4th quarter.

All QB's don't magically pull every victory out of the hat. Dak was going to be a hero for the Cowboys last week, until Brady got the ball. Dak did his job, but the Cowboys defense could not stop Brady.


I made this comment elsewhere and it 100% explaining the media( Colin Cowturd in this instance) narrative towards Baker

The problem here is Tom Brady drove his team down the field for the game winning FG and he used that earlier to talk about Brady's greatness (which he is the GOAT) but if Baker drove his team down the field for the game winner and his kicker missed the FG ( which is very likely, since he sucks) Colin would say Baker failed because he didn't get the TD , that he needs to win it and stop depending on his kicker to win the game... Fact!

This is what aggravates me because the narrative isn't consistent!!!


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Originally Posted By: Homewood Dog
No one can stop us but us you said. Yes I agree. That's what happened at KC. We don't fumble those 2 times we win.

Whoa. Teams have patterns, if you study what the Chiefs' do since 2019, you can see the pattern of them forcing those types of mistakes. I'm sure if the stadium were quiet it would have been easier for the punter to get a clean snap too.

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All of the above - true.

All that really matters is his coaches and teammates.

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I saw Payton Manning throw 5 interceptions in a game. 5 interceptions...

He is still going into the Hall of Fame.


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Originally Posted By: ChargerDawg
I saw Payton Manning throw 5 interceptions in a game. 5 interceptions...

He is still going into the Hall of Fame.

Did he win that game I doubt it.
Interceptions suck! Baker and his fumbles late in games, and stared down that receiver.

And spell check adding letters to words I know I didn't type! flamingmad - (like an s at the end of receiver)^
there are 9 spaces between the - and the parenthesis, it won't ^^ move.

Maybe I've been wrong all along. banghead


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Chargers won the game that Peyton Manning threw 5 interceptions.

It was closer than you would have thought.


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When you stand back and look at any QB whenever they come up short they are subjected to an unfair amount of criticism, it is the nature of the beast so to speak. Every single time Brady has a bad game and he has had them people start sticking forks in him and they did the same with Manning as well so for me the criticism is fair but hardly ever accurate.

In the case of the Int. on Sunday that play CONNOT happen, Baker knows it and so do all of us. It isn't a snap shot of Baker's ability or effort it was one play in a game and perhaps the most important play of the game and he failed. He owns that it's just that simple.

But we have a long season ahead he will recover and we were in a tuff spot to win, and it stung because until the last 10 minutes of that game we truly had it in the bag, every single break went in favor of the Chiefs, it happens and they are a great team you simply don't get to the SB as consistently as they have over the course of the past few seasons without being good.

I don't want this to turn into an excuse for Baker or for the Browns coming up short, it's simple all truth and nothing but the truth. The momentum in the game was changed by the Chubb fumble and the Hammer not getting it done on a punt something he has practiced 1000's of times and he failed, Chub failed and finally Baker failed one bad play snowballed take away any of those plays and the Browns ice that game. The Chubb fumble looking back was the worst of it because it was the 1st. It also was disappointing to not perform better as a team to recover to refocus and put this game away. Nick is NOT a fumbler and Baker is NOT a turnover machine and the Hammer is NOT a fumbler either. For whatever reason the football Gods decided we had to lose.

In the end it was but one game and is NOT all that important NOW, we can't change the past. What we can do is get better as the season rolls on correct what went wrong in that game put it behind us and do much much much better the next go. This can actually be a great teaching point and get everyone to double down on their focus in the 4th quarter of games. Everything was lined up for us to ice this game Chubb was carving up the Chiefs defense and they were exhausted from trying to stop us all afternoon. Someone got a hat on the ball and jarred the ball out, it happens and as a team you have got to overcome those plays, because as painful as it is to see you have to find a way to overcome. My disappointment is we didn't grind well enough in the end and that is a team failure.

This was not a defining moment for this team, we will face these situations many many times through this season how we react is far move important in my mind then that these plays happen. take that Chubb play away 1 stinking play and the outcome of this game is different Chubb finishes this deal off the Browns go up by 19 game over. That is what I expect to happen from here out, and that can be a positive IMO.

The only thing that is important here is that we take our lesson, and get ready to put the boots to Houston. The game in KC is over.


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Oh and folks, who is truly disappointed with Bakers performance without the Int. to end it?

A game is a body of work, one play took away the truly solid performance he put up.


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Originally Posted By: Brown to the Bone
Oh and folks, who is truly disappointed with Bakers performance without the Int. to end it?

A game is a body of work, one play took away the truly solid performance he put up.


I agree with your point...I'll add that the end of game "failure" came due to Baker being tackling while throwing the ball. It's not like he simply made a bad throw or read or decision that resulted in the error...the other team made a good play there.

Sometimes when I read about his "failure" I think I'm reading someone who didn't actually see/know that he was tackled as he released the ball. (Not saying that is you.)

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I recall the "Baker is a one read QB" myth.

At this point, I'm not even sure there's an argument against Baker being the best QB from the 2018 draft.

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As a fan base, do you want to go to the Super Bowl and win the whole thing or do you want to spend your time defending Baker Mayfield? I thought the name of the game was to win the whole thing.

The whole difference between winning the whole thing and not is the QB. The difference between winning and losing in the NFL is literally game winning drives by elite QBs. That's it. That's the NFL.

Baker failed on Sunday. He really doesn't have a signature put the team on his back come from behind win against a quality opponent yet. There are questions out there about his abilities on third down when there is no play action and no receivers running across the field wide open on whether or not he can get it done. I think those questions are slightly unfair as no one completes more plus level throws on 3rd down than Baker. But think about the context he's being judged in. Nobody cares if Baker converts 3rd and 20s all day long against the Bengals. The Browns are now being judged only against whether they can win it all. That is the lense they are now being viewed through. And that will always come down to the QB. That's just the way the NFL works.

People rush to Baker's defense on here like he's their child. This is absolute insanity. Baker came up short. Nothing he did before that moment friggin matters. The object is to win the game. Why can't people just call it what it is without getting defensive about it. Now let's move on and hope it doesn't happen again.

And for the umpteenth time before people start crying, I am not saying I don't like Baker or I want to move on from Baker or he's a finished product or we can't win it all with him or any other overly emotional overreactions my post is going to draw from the usual suspects on this board. I am saying Baker had a chance to put the team on his back to win the game. He failed. It's concerning he really hasn't demonstrated he can do that so far in his career. I hope the trend the changes. I still love the Browns (and Baker).

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Originally Posted By: devicedawg
I recall the "Baker is a one read QB" myth.

At this point, I'm not even sure there's an argument against Baker being the best QB from the 2018 draft.




"Baker Mayfield is now a professional QB. The way he diagnoses what's going on on defense. The way he uses his eyes, shoulders to manipulate the defense...His command in the backfield on run plays, fakes. He looks like a guy more totally in command."


You know my love will Not Fade Away.........


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Originally Posted By: Rishuz


Baker failed on Sunday.


Well...it is a bottom line business...no doubt. But...

How do you consider the fact that he was hit as he threw?

How do you factor in Schwartz not holding on to the long pass play?

The Browns lost Sunday. The turnovers beat them. The other team made plays when they needed them and we made mistakes when we should not have....

To say that Baker failed tells one small piece of the story...when that happens, people who know/see/acknowledge more of the story will push back. It's nothing new.

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The pass to Schwartz was his worst of the game. More egregious than the interception. Lead him to the sideline and it's a huge completion. Inaccurate pass that forced Scwartz into a tough contested catch. If you have it recorded watch it again. He had been incredibly accurate the entire day. That was his first really inaccurate throw. And it coincidentally came at a time where he couldn't afford it.

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