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This is disgusting, but I couldn't stop reading. Of course, being the "Rolling Stone" there's some asinine liberal bias...but the documents and interviews appear legit with real names. This is a hell of a story that will cause irreparable damage. Way too lengthy to post the story here. My only complaint is that I think these things, like Abu-Gharib, shouldn't be publicized until the war is over. http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-kill-team-20110327?page=1
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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Only read the first two pages so far, will catch up on the rest later..
This is awful. I understand that I've never been deployed or in a combat zone, but this is an unforgivable act. Really smears the image of thousands of soldiers if it turns out to be true.
Wise words spoken by sages
From SkyTel to BlackBerry pagers
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Legend
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Legend
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One of the complications of fighting a non-uniformed enemy. You don't know who to shoot. Stay in that environment long enough and have enough innocent looking people start shooting at you and planting bombs, sooner before later you don't really care who you shoot.
If you are going to make a mistake, better to shoot some innocent 15 year old peddling his bike your way rather then wave at him, then have him blow you to bits because he is wearing a bomb.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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That article makes me want to puke. Quote:
My only complaint is that I think these things, like Abu-Gharib, shouldn't be publicized until the war is over.
I disagree here. I can almost guarantee that this has passed by word of mouth around large swaths of the population of Afghanistan. The fact that these types of things were being brought up at district wide meetings (on page 7) within a couple of days means that word spread quickly. If the population whose "hearts and minds" we're supposed to be winning knows, why shouldn't we know?
Hiding stuff like this has only one purpose; to sway public opinion in favor of the war. That is no better than what Goebbels did for Hitler, misleading a population to substantiate war. JMO, but people should decide how they feel about the war based on as full disclosure as possible, not half-truths.
Also, I feel that if these kinds of things become highly public, and these particular soldiers are punished harshly, it may act as a deterrent to other soldiers who might be thinking along these lines.
Even if this is a completely isolated incident, aside from being a disgusting tragedy, I agree that it will damage our mission in Afghanistan a great deal. Afghanis already know we can't be there forever, and they also know the Taliban is waiting just across the border or in the highlands for us to leave. Now they have reason to fear us. Not exactly a recipe for winning hearts and minds.
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Quote:
If you are going to make a mistake, better to shoot some innocent 15 year old peddling his bike your way rather then wave at him, then have him blow you to bits because he is wearing a bomb.
That I could at least understand somewhat. A few of these soldiers though admitted to pre-mediatation, as well as staging "attacks" as pretext for firing into villages. They also collected body parts as trophies.
To me, very different things. What you are talking about is akin to a cop shooting someone in the dark b/c it looks like they have a gun. That's a sad tragedy, but it also is hard to fault the cop. What happened here is akin to the cop restraining someone, throwing a gun down next to them, and blowing their brains out. That's inexcusable.
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Legend
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This is not good.
Name a conflict where this has not happened.
This just signals to me that something is missing,...command ? training ? our society ? recruiting? indoctrination ? lack of fear of retribution ?
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"The collection also includes several videos shot by U.S. troops. In a jumpy, 30-minute clip titled "Motorcycle Kill," soldiers believed to be with another battalion in the Stryker Brigade gun down two Afghans on a motorcycle who may have been armed. One of the most chilling files shows two Afghans suspected of planting an IED being blown up in an airstrike. Shot through thermal imaging, the grainy footage has been edited into a music video, complete with a rock soundtrack and a title card that reads 'death zone.'"
This is why you can't trust the author's BS agenda. Blowing up people that are planting IED's is a problem?? Not for me.
The author is spinning crap to suckers dumb enough to to eat it up. I've served on the front line in this war, and I encourage any of you that eagerly sit in judgement to volunteer your time and service in the military to make it better.
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Legend
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Quote:
This is not good.
Name a conflict where this has not happened.
This just signals to me that something is missing,...command ? training ? our society ? recruiting? indoctrination ? lack of fear of retribution ?
ooorah...big time problem, especially if a core element of Gen Petraeus' counterinsurgency is winning the hearts and minds of the Afghan people.
Troops continue to serve multiple tours and our military has been at war since Oct 7, 2001, which may have figured into this situation. But it appears that it's more than just the troops who may be suffering from war fatigue...it is also some with the chain of command that might be showing signs of fatigue.
Then there is the attempt to hide or cover up the pictures and how many assets were used to find and hide or destroy the evidence of the attacks.
If ever there were signs that our nation and our military need a break from 10 yrs of wars, this might be the biggest hint yet.
No excuses for those involved...even the officers...all must be dealt with according to the UCMJ.
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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I haven't had time to read the article yet, but one of my professors talked a bit about it in class yesterday. While I wish those events hadn't happened, its pretty hard for me to agree with the people who are outraged and disgusted. This is a war, this is the kind of thing that happens in a war. If war is so disgusting, stop voting republican 
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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Legend
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Quote:
If war is so disgusting, stop voting republican
Except this happened in Jan 2010 under Commander in Chief President Obama. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
If war is so disgusting, stop voting republican
What the hell does this have to do with it? Democrat President is getting us involved in one in Libya.
Not to mention,wasn't he supposed to have all our troups out of Iraq last year?
Some comments on here are just mind boggling sometimes.
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Legend
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I didn't respond because I figured he was either joking or he was unfamiliar with who was president when WWI started... and WWII... and Korea... and Vietnam... and Serbia... and Libya....
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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Quote:
I didn't respond because I figured he was either joking or he was unfamiliar with who was president when WWI started... and WWII... and Korea... and Vietnam... and Serbia... and Libya....
he was kidding because he knows the majority who are disgusted with this already don't vote Republican.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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That's a total pile of crap peen. This had nothing to do with them thinking those civilians were insurgents. Did you even read the article? Seriously? These men pre-mediated these murders. Make no mistake that's what happened over there. MURDER 1st degree. They admitted talking about it for months, having drop weapons, collecting trophies (taking a finger), and posing with dead with thumbs up. Check out the pictures if you think you have the stomach for it (The photos are shocking and extremely graphic like severed limbs) To imply this has anything to do with a situation where a person thinks someone has a bomb and shoots them is egregious. There are very few things that cause me to have an emotional reaction especially something on the internet but what those soldiers did makes me angry. I feel shamed but I bet these guys were fighting for my freedom. The Military deseveres every insult and all the scrutiny that can brought to bear that arises for allowing this situation to happen. I don't care if this was an isolated squad (from the article it appears it wasn't) the Military deserves it all. As a company is responsible for its employees the Military is responsible for its soldiers. Between this Kill squad and Abu Ghraib the Military has failed the American people. Quote:
But a review of internal Army records and investigative files obtained by Rolling Stone, including dozens of interviews with members of Bravo Company compiled by military investigators, indicates that the dozen infantrymen being portrayed as members of a secretive "kill team" were operating out in the open, in plain view of the rest of the company. Far from being clandestine, as the Pentagon has implied, the murders of civilians were common knowledge among the unit and understood to be illegal by "pretty much the whole platoon," according to one soldier who complained about them. Staged killings were an open topic of conversation, and at least one soldier from another battalion in the 3,800-man Stryker Brigade participated in attacks on unarmed civilians. "The platoon has a reputation," a whistle-blower named Pfc. Justin Stoner told the Army Criminal Investigation Command. "They have had a lot of practice staging killings and getting away with it."
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Quote:
This is not good.
Name a conflict where this has not happened.
This just signals to me that something is missing,...command ? training ? our society ? recruiting? indoctrination ? lack of fear of retribution ?
Agreed it's not good and something is rotten in the state of denmark, just what an investigation would find is anyone's guess.
LET'S GO BROWNS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/OldSixty-Two/new0400001.jpg) [b]WOOF WOOF[b]
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I am not a soldier...and I have never been in war----but I could imagine there would be some pretty horrific things going on that soldiers would have to deal with. And I would hope that it would be tough for them--b/c taking lives isn't something that should ever be taken lightly. Furthermore, I really believe that taking a human life shouldn't be something that a soldier is proud of.
It should be an understanding that at that moment in time it was a necessity. I had to kill that man in order to return home to my family, to do my job, to continue on as a living creature on God's great Earth. But I will respect that man as a human being, and understand what I did when I took his life. It wasn't right, but it wasn't wrong; it was just necessary given our circumstance. And in a way, he gave his life so I could go on living.
I would think times like these would haunt a good man.
But these men in this scandal. They are not good men. They reveled in the deaths of others. Took and shared photos of death and dismemberment as though it was some kind of game or contest. They took a sick sort of righteousness forward from it. I don't believe that anyone should take pride in the killing and dismembering of another human being. Ever. No matter the circumstance.
This all brings up another issue in my mind though. With all our technology, and our advancement on the battlefield. Has distancing our soldiers from the act of killing actually created this problem. When they can just sit back in relative safety and kill people--they are no longer confronted with a necessity kill. Instead it becomes muddled in the minefields of morals, ethics, and the polarizing stain of right and wrong.
Does this contribute to these instances of depravity, where soldiers totally lose respect for other human beings and take there lives from afar without ever being in any real jeopardy, then celebrate the grisly aftermath of the fresh kill?
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Legend
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great post. I enjoyed reading it. Quote:
This all brings up another issue in my mind though. With all our technology, and our advancement on the battlefield. Has distancing our soldiers from the act of killing actually created this problem. When they can just sit back in relative safety and kill people--they are no longer confronted with a necessity kill. Instead it becomes muddled in the minefields of morals, ethics, and the polarizing stain of right and wrong.
I don't think this applies to front line troops. Unfortunately for them they still have to get up close and personal.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
great post. I enjoyed reading it.
Quote:
This all brings up another issue in my mind though. With all our technology, and our advancement on the battlefield. Has distancing our soldiers from the act of killing actually created this problem. When they can just sit back in relative safety and kill people--they are no longer confronted with a necessity kill. Instead it becomes muddled in the minefields of morals, ethics, and the polarizing stain of right and wrong.
I don't think this applies to front line troops. Unfortunately for them they still have to get up close and personal.
I think that is one of the best posts I have ever read from Tyler. Although when I read the this paragraph I thought more on the lines of you don't have to look into their eyes before you kill them, like they did in early times with swords, and early gun years with muskets when distances really hampered your success. With todays weapons they can kill a man from a good distance with some of the most basic weapons. Sometimes your target doesn't even know your there.
Even so, for most soldiers, the taking of a life, in particularly an innocent one, is very difficult to handle mentally.
When it becomes a game, it is time to pull them from the field.
Last edited by FloridaFan; 03/30/11 07:23 AM.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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