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Seeing as how dude was crucified by the Romans for some transgression against the ruling class, does this make him an outlaw?
Just got to thinking about it, and crucifixion was a punishment handed down by a ruling class. In order to be punished, you would have had to done something that conflicted with the wishes of those who ruled the land.
Would it be appropriate to consider him an outlaw? Someone who broke the rules and lived outside the social norms of the time?
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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In order to be punished, you would have had to done something that conflicted with the wishes of those who ruled the land.
But (the question is) does that make him an outlaw ....? All we know is that he was punished because the top people disliked him and his teachings.
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Did you know there is evidence that Jesus was actually born on April 17(my birthday  ) 4 AD
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...,...broke the rules "of the time....,..."
So, yes, by that definition I would say he was.
As The Saviour, he has, of course, since been vindicated.
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But did he actually break the rules? He was often called out by the pharisees but (as far as I can remember) was never convicted by them. He was always able to refute them with previous quotes, or put them into catch 22's with parables.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
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That, I cannot converse on.
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Victim by choice, not chance.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Quote:
But did he actually break the rules? He was often called out by the pharisees but (as far as I can remember) was never convicted by them. He was always able to refute them with previous quotes, or put them into catch 22's with parables.
Agreed.....though he did trash the temple, but that wasn't what the people wanted him punished for. You'd think that act alone would have been enough for Pilate to sentence him.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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That's true. And I don't pretend to be a full scholar and actually know the answer ... but he was basically disliked by the popular and rich / ruling class if I recall ... never actually found guilty of anything though.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
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Jesus did not die on the cross because He was an outlaw. If you read the New Testament, you will find that Jesus was crucified because it was the Will of God. In fact, He actually knew that He was going to be crucified and told His disciples and others repeatedly that it was going to happen. Secondly, He was not an outlaw because He was not a lawbreaker. He was accused of breaking the Law, but if you read the New Testament carefully, it shows that the accusations were false. The accusations were as follows.
1. He was accused of Blasphemy for claiming to be the Son of God. It is true that He claimed to be the Son of God, but this would only be blasphemy if He were lying. The Old Testament has many prophecies predicting that God would send His Son. These were written hundreds of years before Christ was born. Jesus fulfilled perfectly dozens of prophecies and performed many documented miracles that demonstrate that His claim was true. The greatest evidence is that His tomb was empty on the first Easter morning, and they never found His Body, and that hundreds of documented eye witnesses testified that they had seen Him alive, ( risen from the dead). Most of these eyewitnesses even held fast to their testimonies under the cruellest torture and death.
2. He was accused of working on the Sabbath, ( Saturday). This was a false accusation, unless you consider saying "be healed" during a synagogue service our telling a crippled man to pick up his mat and walk as physical labor, ( which is what "work" means in context).
3. He was accused of inciting rebellion against Caesar, which never happened.
4. He was accused of blasphemy against the temple when He said "destroy this temple, and I will raise it in three days, but He was actually referring to the temple of His body. They misunderstood or chose to twist His words.
Every accusation against Jesus was a false accusation, but the Bible says that He never opened His mouth to defend Himself. He was fulflilling His Fathers Will.
Why did Jesus die? He died as the Saviour of mankind. The Bible teaches:
a. All have sinned ( Romans 3:23)
b. the wages of sin is death, ( Romans 6:23)
c. Christ died in our place so we don't have to suffer eternal death. ( Romans 5:8)
Jesus died because we are or were all outlaws against God. We broke the laws, and He took the punishment so that we wouldn't have to.
Last edited by LA Brown fan; 04/25/11 09:22 AM.
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Quote:
Quote:
But did he actually break the rules? He was often called out by the pharisees but (as far as I can remember) was never convicted by them. He was always able to refute them with previous quotes, or put them into catch 22's with parables.
Agreed.....though he did trash the temple, but that wasn't what the people wanted him punished for. You'd think that act alone would have been enough for Pilate to sentence him.
Pilate was a Roman, the temple was of the Jews.. Pilate had no jurisdiction (or at least he didn't want jurisdiction) to rule on something somebody did that may have violated the Jewish religion but didn't violate the laws of Rome.
As a Roman, Pilate could not have cared less that he trashed the temple or claimed to be the Son of God.. that is why he "washed his hands of it" and basically turned the decision over to the Jewish people...
You also need to understand the historical context of the time, the Jewish rebellion against the Romans was building and Pilate was caught between the Jewish religious leaders, who wanted one thing (Jesus crucified) and a poor religious leader who was developing a HUGE following among the ordinary people... either way, it was a no-win situation for Pilate and had he ruled at all, he risked possibly inciting riots and rebellions...
But you really asked two different questions... was he an outlaw? No, not against Rome, he was a threat because of his following but he had broken no laws.. the other question is did he break rules and live outside the conventions of the time? Absolutely, he broke many of the accepted rules of the Jewish people and he spoke in stark contrast to what many of the Jewish religious leaders taught which put him way outside the norm in Isreal during that time.. then there is the whole claiming to be the son of God part, which unless it's true, is about as big of a religious sin as you can commit in most cases.. fortunately, it was true... but it also got him crucified.
yebat' Putin
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Whatever the reason why, or whose/what law he "violated," according to the Word of God, wasn't he 'supposed' to be crucified in order to "save" mankind from all of its sins ? If it hadn't been Jesus, wouldn't it have been someone else, OR, could it NOT have been anyone else since he WAS the ONLY Son of God ?
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With all due respect ... you ask that question as though you would understand the answer.
I don't claim to be an expert, but as long as we are on the religious topic, there are parts in the bible which make you think that there might be a lot more going on than us as "earthlings" or "man" would know ...
At one part in the early books / and I cannot for the life of me remember it off the top of my head ... I'll look it up later (I think it's around the book of 2 Kinds?) ... an angel visits one of the men, and he asks "what is your name" and the way that the angel responds is more or less ... "you wouldn't understand if I told you so what's the significance?"
It leads to a whole concept that as smart as we might think we are, the workings of an all powerful being that is able to create worlds, creatures / life, and everything around us .. it might not be able to be understood fully by us ..
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But did he actually break the rules? He was often called out by the pharisees but (as far as I can remember) was never convicted by them. He was always able to refute them with previous quotes, or put them into catch 22's with parables.
Agreed.....though he did trash the temple, but that wasn't what the people wanted him punished for. You'd think that act alone would have been enough for Pilate to sentence him.
Pilate was a Roman, the temple was of the Jews.. Pilate had no jurisdiction (or at least he didn't want jurisdiction) to rule on something somebody did that may have violated the Jewish religion but didn't violate the laws of Rome.
As a Roman, Pilate could not have cared less that he trashed the temple or claimed to be the Son of God.. that is why he "washed his hands of it" and basically turned the decision over to the Jewish people...
You also need to understand the historical context of the time, the Jewish rebellion against the Romans was building and Pilate was caught between the Jewish religious leaders, who wanted one thing (Jesus crucified) and a poor religious leader who was developing a HUGE following among the ordinary people... either way, it was a no-win situation for Pilate and had he ruled at all, he risked possibly inciting riots and rebellions...
But you really asked two different questions... was he an outlaw? No, not against Rome, he was a threat because of his following but he had broken no laws.. the other question is did he break rules and live outside the conventions of the time? Absolutely, he broke many of the accepted rules of the Jewish people and he spoke in stark contrast to what many of the Jewish religious leaders taught which put him way outside the norm in Isreal during that time.. then there is the whole claiming to be the son of God part, which unless it's true, is about as big of a religious sin as you can commit in most cases.. fortunately, it was true... but it also got him crucified.
Pilate was there to keep peace, law and order in Jerusalem, and I was under the impression that Jesus trashing the temple caused a small riot. Given the multitudes there at the time to celebrate Passover, I'm kind of surprised that the uprising wasn't quashed on the spot to keep it from getting out of hand.
I wasn't the one who initially asked the question.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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Quote:
With all due respect ... you ask that question as though you would understand the answer.
I don't claim to be an expert, but as long as we are on the religious topic, there are parts in the bible which make you think that there might be a lot more going on than us as "earthlings" or "man" would know ...
At one part in the early books / and I cannot for the life of me remember it off the top of my head ... I'll look it up later (I think it's around the book of 2 Kinds?) ... an angel visits one of the men, and he asks "what is your name" and the way that the angel responds is more or less ... "you wouldn't understand if I told you so what's the significance?"
It leads to a whole concept that as smart as we might think we are, the workings of an all powerful being that is able to create worlds, creatures / life, and everything around us .. it might not be able to be understood fully by us ..
You're talking -- if I have this correct -- about the possibility of "supernatural" power as it has been through the eyes and hands of God. That would make me ask, then, why do we have cancer, earthquakes, and war ?
My opinions don't mean a whole lot. Life just is what it is. I try not to get too wrapped up around defining it.
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Quote:
Quote:
With all due respect ... you ask that question as though you would understand the answer.
I don't claim to be an expert, but as long as we are on the religious topic, there are parts in the bible which make you think that there might be a lot more going on than us as "earthlings" or "man" would know ...
At one part in the early books / and I cannot for the life of me remember it off the top of my head ... I'll look it up later (I think it's around the book of 2 Kinds?) ... an angel visits one of the men, and he asks "what is your name" and the way that the angel responds is more or less ... "you wouldn't understand if I told you so what's the significance?"
It leads to a whole concept that as smart as we might think we are, the workings of an all powerful being that is able to create worlds, creatures / life, and everything around us .. it might not be able to be understood fully by us ..
You're talking -- if I have this correct -- about the possibility of "supernatural" power as it has been through the eyes and hands of God. That would make me ask, then, why do we have cancer, earthquakes, and war ?
My opinions don't mean a whole lot. Life just is what it is. I try not to get too wrapped up around defining it.
I know this question wasn't directed at me, but the reason we have earthquakes, cancer, and war is a matter of simple cause and effect. God created everything, including us, and everything was created for His pleasure and glory. When mankind decided to reject God our creator in favor of being our own god or a in favor of a god of our own making, the natural consequences was a fallen, distorted creation.
In Genesis, man was given dominion over the earth. The decision to reject God in favor of trying to make man to be God effected the entire cosmos, just like if I set my house on fire, the natural consequence is that it will burn down. This principle is called sin and death.
God sent Jesus to die for the sins of the world. When someone trusts Christ, they become part of His Kingdom. Remember He said, "my kingdom is not of this world." When God is finished building that Kingdom, Christ will return and creation will be restored.
On Easter, I celebrated the ressurrection of Christ. Because Christ rose, not only will He raise the dead, ( and His children will enter His Kingdom), but the creation/created universe will also be transformed, raised from corruption if you will. I believe it's almost like the cosmos will have its own ressurrection. When that happens, there will be no more death, sickness, pain, earthquakes, war, etc.
Romans 5: 12; Romans 8: 19-21; Revelation 21: 1-5
Last edited by LA Brown fan; 04/27/11 09:24 AM.
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That's a very good question and I hope you didn't see me as calling you (or anyone else) out. Nor was I trying to say that I *knew* anything more than anything else, but that's just the point. If you believe in God, then you have to believe that his knowledge would still be hundreds and thousands of times more than ours could be. The gap would be vastly greater than what would happen if a time machine was invented and Bill Gates was asked what a computer mouse was by a caveman ... even if he wanted to understand it because he realized it had power, it might not be able to be explained because it is just too complex and outside the realm of the caveman's thinking. In that same way, who are we to assume that we see something like cancer, an earthquake, solar flares and black holes, even gravity ... and assume that anything that occurs "naturally" isn't a carefully crafted concept? And ... who is to assume that even if it were explained to us we would get it? Not only for what the event / phenomenon was itself, but also why it was the way it was, why it was in existence, etc. PS ...my opinions are only as important as yours
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
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Seeing as how dude was crucified
First time EVER that I've heard Jesus referred to as "dude".
Didn't Sean Penn play him on Fast Times at Ridgemont High? ... Dude?
P.S. LA Brown fan has a very well thought out, very well written answer. 
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Thank you, Christy. God is good.
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