DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pluto Talkin' about the Offense

About the Browns ...

1. I've been doing some work on how the Browns want their new West Coast offense to work. As one operative told me, "It's quarterback friendly, but the quarterback must be efficient, accurate and have timing with the receivers." That's why the Browns are thrilled about the various player workouts being run by quarterback Colt McCoy. While you can't install the offense without coaches, linemen, etc., being there -- you can have the quarterbacks and receivers working on the type of patterns that will be used.

2. Based on some research, I've learned that St. Louis had McCoy ranked as the No. 2 quarterback in the 2010 draft, behind Sam Bradford -- their top pick. The Rams coaching staff (and that includes current Browns head coach Pat Shurmur) liked McCoy because they believed he'd be very effective in the offense. That 73 percent completion rate in his last two years at Texas along with McCoy's leadership traits made him attractive.

3. His lack of size -- optimistically listed at 6-1 -- was not a major negative. The Rams' (and now the Browns') form of the West Coast offense will have the quarterback moving around the pocket and delivering quick-strike short and medium passes -- waiting for a chance to surprise the defense with a throw downfield. Shurmur definitely was impressed with McCoy when the Rams researched and interviewed him in 2010.

4. So the West Coast offense requires an accurate, precision passer. That's why it's strange when there is an ESPN story and some suggestions from fans that the Browns grab former OSU quarterback Terrelle Pryor in the supplemental draft. Why? The things this offense requires are the weakest parts of Pryor's game. As for making him a receiver, that is a long-term project -- assuming it works at all.

5. The Browns also have Seneca Wallace, who has been helping McCoy and the receivers at the second Camp Colt. Yes, Wallace is athletic, but what makes him a fit in the West Coast offense is his career 60 percent completion rate. He completed 63 percent last year.

6. Accuracy is key because receivers must be connected with passes in stride. Consider that in 2009-10, Browns QBs completed only 49 percent of their passes. McCoy was at 60 percent last season.

7. Tight end Ben Watson led the Browns with 40 catches for first downs. Then came running back Peyton Hillis (25), receiver Mohamed Massaquoi (24) and slot receiver Chansi Stuckey (21). So no receiver recorded more than 24 first downs. The Rams had three receivers with at least that many: Danny Amendola (35), Brandon Gibson (33) and Daniel Fell (24). Amendola was an undrafted 5-11 receiver from Texas Tech in 2009. He caught 43 passes as a rookie, 85 last season. The Browns believe they can find someone from their current group of receivers -- Brian Robiskie, Massaquoi or rookie Greg Little -- who can surprise and thrive in the offense.

8. In St. Louis, Shurmur's offense threw 590 passes compared to 429 runs last season. In 2009, it was 543 passes to 411 runs with a collection of Marc Bulger, Kyle Boller and Keith Null at quarterback. Steven Jackson carried the ball 330 and 324 times in the last two seasons, but the Rams rarely gave the ball to anyone else.

9. By comparison, the Browns threw 478 passes compared to 413 runs in 2010. It was 443 passes, 498 rushes in 2009. So the play calling will swing more toward passing, but the Browns believe the passes will be more successful because they are shorter. But the real advantage may be the Browns matching their quarterback to the offense.

10. But the Browns believe the West Coast offense will help the running game. In Shurmur's two years calling the plays, Steven Jackson gained 1,241 and 1,416 yards for the Rams, averaging 326 carries. Because Peyton Hillis (270 carries for 1,177 yards) takes such a beating, the Browns need Montario Hardesty to stay healthy -- and it would be wise to sign a veteran running back.


http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2011/06/terry_plutos_talkin_about_pat.html


need to discuss something and this seems like an appropirate topic.

I worry about this type of offense against defenses like Pittsburgh.

That defense is built to shut out the short & intermediate stuff, and we don't have Aaron Rodgers to push the ball deep on them on a regular basis.

Colt may already be the best small ball QB in the league with his screen pass up to that 13 yard range. That 13-25 yard post and curl will make or break him in this offense. Beyond 25, he doesn't have the arm strength to throw it effectively. Maybe in a few years, as his body matures, he will be able to make those throws but now, it isn't even an option.

The question is now whether or not he still has the arm to throw the 13 to 25 range effectively. I am a huge fan of Colt and believe in the kid but what I saw at the end of the year was a dead arm QB that couldn't throw 15 yards without lofting the ball. I know he had the nerve issue flare up but we dont know if he is cured or if its gonna flare up again soon as he takes a shot. Lots of questions t be answered.

As for receivers, I think this can be an effective group that just didnt fit Daboll's scheme. They all have issues but they will also have great coaching and that is something they didnt have the last 2 years. Robiskie will fight for position and the ball, just needs confidence. Little is going to be good but it may take a year or two. Mo has to learn to fight for the ball, he is a really good route runner. Cribbs is tailor made to be a big time player in this scheme.

TE and RB is our strength and no O in football seemed to use more TE and RB screens than Shurmur. Fake handoff to Hillis and flip the backdoor screen to the TE and big yards can be had.

The OL has serious issues to resolve. We wont know anything till we get these guys in pads but I would make Doug Free a wealthy man and fix this OL for the next 10 years.

Quote:

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4. So the West Coast offense requires an accurate, pr
ecision passer. That's why it's strange when there is an BSPN story and some suggestions from fans that the Browns grab former OSU quarterback Terrelle Pryor in the supplemental draft. Why?

---

Because some folks do not understand that you can't fit a square peg in a round hole.

I am a huge fan of Colt and believe in the kid but what I saw at the end of the year was a dead arm QB that couldn't throw 15 yards without lofting the ball.

You have known me long enough to know I am no apologist for players, but in his defense, that first year out of college means a lot of throwing when you account for combine prep, private workouts, then head to mini's and regular camp.

He's had a good rest now, so if dead arm is still a issue, time to move on.

Pryor as a safety is very very intriguing. Pryor as a receiver is interesting. Pryor as quarterback is a failed experiment. Less accuracy than BQ and DA and just doesn't look like a QB.

Daman, Colt gave Pitt all they wanted at Pitt in his debut. He shredded the Pats. He led the Browns to a win against the Saints in New Orleans. He led the Browns down the field against the Jets to send the game to overtime and was leading a game winning drive when Chansi fumbled it. All of this in an offense that was the worst offense imaginable for his skill set.

This kid has shown so much that he will have more than just a chance to succeed. It is his team and this is an offense that Colt was born to run. If the shoulder is fine, we are going to put up some points with this kid at the helm.

I will pull for Colt. He seems to be taking advantage of the rough patch; getting reps, chemistry, learning curve, and that is all good. Let's just go have us a season. Trying to be optimistic, but a draft next year and some help in supps and what will be insanity for FAs should only help us (I hope).

Truth be told, I highly doubt we grab him. If we did, I just wouldn't be disappointed. In reality, I don't think there's room on the roster in this system for what he brings to the table. As far as him working out in a WCO, I don't know, he has the mobility but issue is accuracy as is an ability to hit receivers on the run. Can that be taught? Possibly. Don't see it happening here though, and I don't see him being brought on as a DB or WR prospect either. I like Mourg's idea of seeing what he can do at safety, but like I said, I don't see them doing that. It would be interesting, but this is all probably moot.

Wow, it's my lucky day, we now have TWO threads about TP and the Browns.

Not blaming you CalDawg . . .

The moment you decide that a prospect isn't worthy of being brought in at their chosen position, all thoughts of spending a pick on them should go immediately out the window. Get him as a UDFA or not at all.

Pryor is TP on Columbus sports radio.

Round here you'd get different answers to your Charmin question, depending on who you ask . . .

Really nothing else going on, is there... :yawn: Wake me when we have some football.

the beat writters must be going crazy trying to find stories

What Shurmur Can Learn From QB History


By Dave Kolonich
OBR Browns Reporter
Posted Jun 27, 2011



For a simple refresher on the Cleveland Browns, new coach Pat Shurmur has to look no further than the last three head coaches of the team’s expansion era — or at the least — not read or listen to any fan rants regarding the quarterback position.


During the lockout, new Browns head coach Pat Shurmur has made the media rounds, hosted a Browns Backers luncheon and has helped out some youth football talent. Whether genuine or necessary to his new role as Browns’ head coach, Shurmur has tried to ingratiate himself into the Cleveland community and has appeared competent and gracious in doing so.

However, before the inevitable rush to training camp and a frenzied game of catch up begins, Shurmur could take the process a step further by checking out some Browns history. And before you start replaying grainy Jim Brown videos in your mind, the history I’m referring to is much more monumental and relevant to today’s Browns than Otto Graham in sneakers or Brian Sipe throwing a wounded duck during the playoffs.

For a simple refresher on the Browns, Shurmur has to look no further than the last three head coaches of the team’s expansion era — or at the least — not read or listen to any fan rants regarding the quarterback position.

Butch Davis, Romeo Crennel and Eric Mangini all committed one fatal error during their respective tenures as head coach of the Browns. Each shuffled their starting quarterbacks to the point of exhaustive futility, which derailed their careers and set the Browns’ organization further behind.

Shurmur, who at the moment appears to have said all the right things regarding 2010 rookie Colt McCoy, will no doubt be tempted at times during the preseason to wonder what he has in veterans Seneca Wallace, Jake Delhomme, or whoever else may be lurking on the team’s roster in the next month or so.

However, recent expansion history suggests that Shurmur should be single-minded when it comes to his quarterback of choice. Otherwise, the upstart head coach will have already lost the battle.

2003

It’s easy to dismiss now, but heading into the 2003 season, Butch Davis basically owned the city of Cleveland. Or, at the least, Davis had consolidated his grasp on the Browns thanks to a surprise playoff berth the prior year. Compared to the misery of the Browns’ first two expansion seasons, Davis’ then two-year tenure appeared to be the foundation of a future winner.

The newly crowned Davis held a quarterback derby between former top overall draft pick Tim Couch and Kelly Holcomb, the mythical backup who had nearly guided the Browns to a playoff win. Davis allowed his quarterback competition to drag out through the preseason, before finally deciding on Holcomb, who at the time had started only three career regular season games. Davis affirmed his decision by stating that he had “a gut feeling.”

The competition itself was a bit of a farce, as neither quarterback displayed much evidence to suggest that they fully deserved the job. In most respects, Couch, who had guided the Browns to the brink of the playoffs before breaking his leg, should have been considered the default starter. Holcomb, who had relieved Couch in the past and sparked the offense, wasn’t fully prepared for the rigors of playing the entirety of games.

By the season’s third week, Holcomb and the Browns had finally scratched out a win, but the journeyman quarterback was so savagely beaten that he never fully recovered. Meanwhile, Couch continued the kind of unbalanced play that marked his career while Davis had lost his safety net. When Holcomb recovered and struggled himself, Couch then filled the Holcomb role. In the process, most of the roster was divided and the team never found an identity during a season of high expectations.

2005

There wasn’t much of a debate heading into the season, as veteran Trent Dilfer was established as the team’s starter over third-round pick Charlie Frye. However, as the season wore on and Romeo Crennel realized the limits of Dilfer, he switched to Frye - much to the displeasure of Dilfer. At the time of Crennel’s move, the Browns were fairly competitive, but clearly represented a team in full blown rebuilding mode.

However, Dilfer was vocal regarding his benching and in a warped manner, betrayed the role of a veteran placeholder - the exact position he was signed to fill. The former Super Bowl champion quarterback still thought he had some mileage left in his career, despite given the context of his declining skills and the Browns’ unique situation. The situation did not exactly become toxic, but the presence of an non-supportive and whiny Dilfer certainly didn’t help Frye and the Browns exceed.

2007

The mother of all Browns’ quarterback competitions was held in 2007 between Frye and Derek Anderson. Frye had suffered through an erratic 2006 performance and Anderson was still relatively unknown at the time. Adding to the intrigue of the competition was the non presence of Brady Quinn, whose lingering holdout cost him a role in the debate.

Crennel shuffled between Frye and Anderson in what became a laughable display of ineptitude — both on and off the field. Neither quarterback played particularly well and Crennel’s passive manner enabled the indecision to continue well into the preseason. The inane nature of Crennel’s competition was framed by the often overmatched coach flipping a coin to determine an early starter.

The situation was exacerbated, then deemed meaningless after Frye melted down in the season opener against Pittsburgh and was traded a few days later. Anderson emerged as the team’s starter and his play ultimately saved both Crennel and GM Phil Savage’s job. However, the precedent was set as throughout the season, calls were made for Quinn to take over, despite Anderson’s inordinate amount of success.

2009

While Davis had a hunch and Crennel just couldn’t make a decision, Eric Mangini was on a mission to both reform the culture of the Browns along with affirm his own power in 2009. Not wanting to rely on the past performances of Anderson and Quinn to make an early starting quarterback decision, Mangini instead wanted to see both players execute his new system of offense.

The results were a painful extraction of clandestine language that at times appeared both unprofessional and unnecessary. Neither quarterback could do much to generate offense, simply based on the complete lack of talent found on the 2009 roster. However, the debate dragged until late in the preseason, with Quinn declared the winner.

Yet, Quinn was instantly on the hot seat, as Mangini wouldn’t declare a Week Two starter. Citing the need to carry a “tactical advantage” into games, Mangini undermined the worth of both quarterbacks and never allowed his offense the chance to form any continuity. Eventually, each player both started and relieved games. Yet in the end, none of the moves made any difference.

2011

The debate has already begun — at least if you pay attention to online forums or talk to any Browns fan. The likely 2011 starter Colt McCoy is either too small, too inexperienced or doesn’t possess the kind of arm required to throw in the windy weather off Lake Erie. Seneca Wallace also doesn’t have a big arm and supposedly can only make reads for half of the field. And we all know Jake Delhomme is a broken down turnover machine.

However, none of these characterizations matter.

If Shurmur decides that any one of these three quarterbacks should become the team’s starting quarterback, then so be it. Regardless of any external factor considered in the decision, the Browns are now Shurmur’s team. With so many other changes occurring to the team’s roster and coaching staff, juggling starting quarterbacks should not be the top of Shurmur’s list.

As history tells us, it just doesn’t work.

hey Shurmur is following our recent QB-history. another new starting QB for week1 in 2011.

i'll have to go look it up again, but it's what 9 in 12 years now?

At least we know who are QB is this time around.

...........whiny Dilfer..........

Different players all the way around,, different kinda system then we've run in the past. And last year, they drafted a kid they thought (and apparently still think) can run that system.

I'm not certain this writer is actually comparing apples to apples.