DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) A Look Back At The Montario Hardesty Trade

In 2010, the Browns moved back into the second round to select Tennessee running back Montario Hardesty with the 59th pick.

In order to move up into the No. 59 slot, the Browns gave up the Nos. 71, 134 and 146 picks. The 71st pick was in the third round, while the 134th and 146th selections were the Browns’ first two selections in the fifth round.

I think most of us can agree that while fairly talented the trade did not help the Browns in any meaningful way over the past 2 years. Is it fair to label him a bust? Not yet but the fat lady is warming up the vocal cords.

Who was selected at the positions? Who else was available?

#71: Morgan Burnett, SS Georgia Tech - selected by Green Bay
#134: Ricky Sapp, DE Clemson - selected by Philly
#146: Cam Thomas, DT North Carolina - selected by San Diego

Morgan Burnett

- Played only 4 games in 2010 due to injury.
- Currently a starting safety in a much maligned GB secondary
- Is well thought of by fans of the Packers
- Was a leading vote getter for the Pro-Bowl this season at safety

Ricky Sapp

- Highly ranked prospect downgraded due to injury at Clemson
- Spent all of 2010 on IR due to knee injury in preseason
- Walked out of Eagles training camp this year, rumored to have "quit".
- Has been off and on the Jets practice squad in 2011
- Has yet to play a down in the NFL

Cam Thomas

- Has started 2 games in 2 years, participated in 22 games overall
- Really big fat person
- NT that doesn't bring too much to the table. Is a plugger.

Looking at the yield not much coming from the 5th round picks used to move up in the draft. I think it's safe to say that Burnett by himself has outperformed Hardesty to this point and he's liked by fans and Packers staff.

What names were there at?

71

Jimmy Graham, TE - Miami
Novorro Bowman, LB - Penn State
Kam Chancellor, FS - Virginia Tech
Aaron Hernandez, TE - Florida
Eric Decker, WR - Minnesota
Tony Moeaki, TE - Iowa
Mike Williams, WR - Syracuse

134&146

Antonio Brown, WR - Central Michigan
LaGarrett Blount, RB - Oregon
James Starks, RB - Buffalo
John Skelton, QB - Fordham
Seyi Ajirotutu, WR - Fresno State

Just thought people might enjoy a look back to that draft day trade.

John Skelton supplanted Kevin Kolb as the Cards QB and they finished 5-2 with him as the signal caller.

The competition that he faced and the outcome.

Week 10: Won @ PHI 21-17
Week 11: Lost @ SF 23-7
Week 12: Won @ STL 23-20
Week 13: DNP (Kolb started vs. DAL)
Week 14: Won @ home vs. SF 21-19
Week 15: Won @ home vs. CLE 20-17 (OT)
Week 16: Lost @ CIN 23-16
Week 17: Won @ home vs. SEA 23-20 (OT)

Trying to figure out what good this is.. I mean I appreciate your effort,, But I'm not sure what this teaches us. other than don't trade back into the second round if the guy you draft isn't going to work out.... Not sure how you know that..

But, thanks for the effort

No real meaning behind it.

The conversations about moving up and down in the draft made me wonder about the other players that were drafted in the spots we gave up for Hardesty.

I thought I'd do some research and provide what I found.

Allow others to draw their own conclusions.

Well I guess I'm a fan of teams that let the draft come to them rather than giving up multiple picks to move up and secure a targeted player.

That's an overall theory. And it's something that I would deviate from from time to time.

Just overall I like how teams like the Patriots play it in that they consistently stock the next draft with extra picks.

I love how we have it this year with our bounty of picks. Thanks Heckert!

Ahh, I see your point.

Let the draft come to you, don't reach or over reach as the case may be.



It's funny, heckert gets grief for making the trades that netted Hardesty, had it worked out, he'd be hailed as genius..LOL

Generally I agree...as many math nerds have shown that the pick values are much closer than the value chart has them....that means it's better to have more picks...but it still comes down to making good picks

I like to have many picks to manipulate the draft to my liking...not simply wait for the board to fall to you....I have given up on that approach on draft weekend 2009...don't you think it would have been better to burn 2 of those 3 2nd rounders to go get Nicks instead of "settling" for Robo and Massa?...I know, I know "hindsight"...well...not so much...there was a CLEAR cut in value on those guys...Massa and Robo were 2nd tier guys....Nicks was the last elite WR talent left....so instead of go get the last elite guy, we settled (taking 2 in the same round pretty much cements this opinion imho...Mangini was praying for 1 to stick...and if he was lucky he had 2...well, turned out he had 0) and took the 1st 2 guys of a LARGE tier 2 pool that included Collie, Mike Thomas, Wallace

So, we TOTALLY misplayed VALUE being the 1st team to dip into a new pool, probably because of need...comparable to a fantasy draft, we panicked when the last tier 1 QB went off the board and took the next best with our next pick instead of just waiting it out and pick for value....

Magini did the same mistake with Mack over Oher....he was the 1st to dip into the elite interior OL class instead of taking 1 of the last remaining of higher value positions (Nicks, Maclin, Oher, Matthews)...if you're a GM, you're not smart to be that 1st guy (unless you pick top 10)

So, while I generally agree to let the board come to you...as a GM...you HAVE TO KNOW value and tiers...

now the Hardesty pick looks stupid...but at the time it actually was the smart thing to do, as he was the last "complete" RB left after Tate was taken right before we moved up...I actually think we had them both closely rated, maybe even wanted Tate (?)...who knows now....but FACT is that 32 GMS agreed..and proof for my theory is that the next RB drafted was Joe McKnight over 50 (!!) picks later....yeah, no RB taken from late 2nd until mid 4th

All that said Hardesty was an ill advised NEED risk-overdraft....need because we didn't know Hillis was a beast yet and had nobody else and risk obviously because of Hardesty's injury...Heckert absolutely did the right thing though...he played the draft to its strength by go getting that last complete RB

It's like in poker or gambling....you can make the right move/be on the right team and still lose out....doesn't make the move/decision a bad one though....so even as this one looks bad as of now I'm encouraged by Heckert's (probable) thought process....he's a pro and I'm glad he's the Browns GM and not some clueless cheap nut throwing darts (yeah, that's my picture of Mangini on draft day )

READ THIS, IT'S WORTH IT !!!

and in trade value chart numbers

59 = 310

71 = 235
134 = 39
146 = 33
Total = 301

I think you're criticism is misplaced. They've drafted rather poorly on defense but that doesn't mean that they haven't tried. And they have hit on some like Vince Wilfork, Jerod Mayo, and Devin McCourty.

Ras-I Dowling is young and has promise.

They've also whiffed an awful awful lot. Second Rouders or better:

2010 Jermaine Cunningham, LB
2010 Brandon Spikes, LB
2009 Patrick Chung, S
2009 Ron Brace, DT
2009 Darius Butler, CB
2008 Terrance Wheatley, CB
2007 Brandon Merriweather, S

If they had fewer picks this would be a calamitous situation.

Could you also argue (just clicking) that they have the ability to take chances on guys who are more "boom/bust" just because of the numbers?

Obviously very rough estimates ... but you could go a lot more risky of picks with upside if you have 7 picks in the first 4 rounds (and a full roster that wins the east every year by the way) than just 6 or 7 picks.

They also have enough veterans signing with them that they can afford to make the trades and be riskier with picks. They traded for Ocho and Haynesworth and that hasn't cost them. Healthy risks I would think.

Now I'm not saying you can afford to miss ... but if you are only trying to add talent then bringing in "middle of the pack" special teamers that you could secure in free agency isn't the answer. Take risks on some guys. If they flop then they are cut ... just like a 'safe' 5th - 7th rounder would be. But if they hit on a risk then they look great doing it and add to the roster.

Yeah possibly

I know that Spikes and Merriweather were big time boom/bust guys. Maybe that did go into it but it wouldn't mean it was smart IMO.

We obviously took a chance on Hardesty. I suppose the book is still open.


As some have noted in various posts, some about draft value and some about the number of picks.


The values assigned to various picks relate to player ability, and once you get through all the "superstar" and superior players, you end up with the rest....a bunch of guys who are all about the same in ability. The differences are minimal. It's really hard, or maybe purely lucky as to which ones will turn in to good players and which ones don't make it or linger on a couple of teams special teams for a season or two.

It's hard to say exactly when the player abilities really start to tighten up, but I'd say the 4th round somewhere is when there isn't much difference between the guy you select there and the guy you select in the 6th round. Maybe a fraction better in the 40... a few more reps on the barbell..a few points better on the tests.


So, more picks gives you more chances. It's like the lottery. More tickets don't increase your odds any, but it does give you more chances to win. So dumping picks to move up generally isn't a good idea.

So, having said that, I think we are going to move up this year to get the #2 overall to select Griffin...assuming we don't like or can't land Flynn or some other FA QB.

I like Hardesty and am hoping this second year out from his injury allows him to be the back we thought him capable of being.

Still think we should add a back depending on the Hillis situation though.

Spring mini camps will tell us a lot about Hardesty.

If he isn't looking quicker and cutting better, you can expect us to bring in several players on tryouts.

Looks bad right now, but every GM makes moves that don't work out. I think they just felt like the talent was too good to pass up, and the fact that he was coming off injury, they might have gotten a bargain.

He hasn't been good, and the injury problems make it worse. This will be year 2 since the surgery, so I think it's a put up or shut up kind of year. If it's more of the same, he's going to get cut, because you need to depend on guys who play probably the most brutal position on the field. They always say the 2nd year from the surgery is where you see improvement. I feel for him because obviously the next 5 or 6 years of his life could be decided by whether or not he can stay on the field, and be productive.

Heckert detractors also use this as ammunition for stating why he's not a good fit for the Browns GM, but honestly we didn't cough up any firsts or seconds, so I don't see the catastrophe, but it's the kind of stuff that if it continues, you get fired.

I'm actually first and foremost a Texans fan living in Houston and all, but I grew up in Cleveland so the Browns are my #2 team. I recall watching the draft last year and thinking the Browns were dumb to trade up to get Hardesty, not because Hardesty was bad, but rather they are in re-build mode and the best thing to have while rebuilding is lots and lots of picks. 3 for 1 is too much IMO for Hardesty, Gerhart and even Ben Tate at the time. Those extra picks are great for adding depth and potentially finding a gem of a starter.

That said, Tate did break his ankle in the preseason of 2010 and didn't play a down for the Texans in the regular season that year. Don't know if he would have done that in Cleveland, but assuming he did you wouldn't be much better off with him. In 2011 he has really shined starting in place of Arian Foster, but I'm not sure how much of it is really him versus our O-line making gaping holes for him to run through. He does run hard, but I don't think he will be elite. I hope Hardesty works out, but good RBs are easy to find in the late rounds of the upcoming draft, and I think the Browns will draft one in the middle rounds to help carry the load.

Would you consider a 3rd round pick and two 5ths for him in a trade today?

I'd pull that trigger so fast your head would spin.

All I'd get from your front office is dial tone.