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Too many people are just making the leap of faith that our guards are going to suddenly have the light come on, when the truth is that there's absolutely zero evidence to present which can make any one person say "Those two guards have some amazing upside after the showing they made last year."
candy put a post up above that shows Pinkston slow, but steadily improved as the year went along (the numbers from I believe profootballfocus.com or another stat-based entity).
so, there is hope that Pinkston was a 5th round rookie that wasn't meant to start right away, was overwhelmed but started improving as the year went along.
on the other side, though GM loves him, Lauvao had bigger struggles. now, I thought he had improved as the year went along as well, but the numbers don't back it up. the hard thing with those numbers (and the sites themselves admit it) is that they don't know the assignments on any play and just have to grade based on what looks like should have happened. it's possible that with a better RT, Lauvao will also look better.
#gmstrong
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I'm a firm believer that the offensive line is most responsible for the performance of a team's offense.
...if the offensive line is doing a good job of run blocking, the RBs will perform well.
...if the Oline protects their QB, the QB and receivers will perform well.
That's nonsense. It isn't that simple. Drew Brees, Aaron Rogers and Peyton Manning make their OL much better where as a Colt McCoy, Big Ben and a Michael Vick make their OL look much worse.
AP can make an 80yard run on the same plays our backs would take a 1 yard loss. Holes close quickly and if the back doesn't have that great initial burst or the vision to find it, then the hole is gone before the back gets there. That is on the RB not the OL
I don't want to downplay the importance of OL in any way but it is a two way street. Great OL play can be wasted by horrible skill position play. Charlie Frye vs. Derrick Anderson is about as good of an example as one will ever find.
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All Pro
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So how is Lavaou gonna fair with a inexperienced RT if last years RT totally was inept?
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Legend
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average overall rating of -1.07 (-.5 pass and -.4 run) Per game
-1.07 +3.285 carry the 3 divide by 13, stick your finger in your ear.... GMAB Shaun gets bashed way to much around here by people who don't pay attention to what goes on in the trenches. 
Thank you for that 1960's comment.
Your very welcome, and please let me know when they start playing the real games on play station
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Practice Squad
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I think it's too soon to tell. We're finally building the line right drafting RT and a guard but until you can convince me Pinkston and Lauvao are starting calibre guards, we're anything but. We have to put a bit of faith that one of them can grow into a starting guard and then hope Schwartz pans out on top of that. Miller has as much off a shot as either those guys as far as I see it. I would say we are a ways off from Elite, but we're taking a step in the right direction for sure.
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Legend
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The numbers don't lie.
Oh yes they do.
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the Browns porous offense in 2011 is a direct corralation of their o-line play,especially at the OG's.
BULL our offense was held back last year buy the young guys who are still learning, a RT who was putrid, WR's running wrong routes and dropping the ball, injuries at RB, terrible play calls by Shurm, and a below average QB.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I firmly believe that we ARE building an elite line (or, have BUILT one).... but it won't even begin to prove itself out until a few weeks into the season, at best. Let's face it, unless he has a Joe Thomas-esque rookie year, Schwartz is going to have his struggles, and any struggles that he has will be felt by whomever is to his left. Add in that we're probably still looking to settle who will be at which Guard spot long-term, and there's going to be some hiccups.
That being what it is, however, with the exception of Schwartz, these guys have been together for a while now - they're going to click a lot faster this season than last, and all of them will be able to help Schwartz along.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Legend
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Lauvao got flagged for 4 false starts in 16 games. 2 fewer than Joe Thomas.
That's because Thomas is slower than Moses, and he sucks *Dripping, with sarcasm*
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Legend
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Why did Shurmer hire him?
I thought warhop was here before Shurmur was.. I thought he was a Mangini hire? could be wrong about that.
But if he was mangini hire, then the question is, why did Shumur retain him?
Either way, he's here because Shurmur wants him here or because he's the best available at the moment. like players, if a better one becomes available next season.. things could change...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Inexperienced yes...but with far more talent and ability than what we had last year. Inexperience or not, we are going to have an upgrade in play at the RT position and it will only help Lavaou's game. As he should be less confused due to better more consistent play around him and better covered for any mistakes he makes...
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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The answer to this question is HOPEFULLY. I also think this is one year to early to be asking this question as the line has a rook RT with two guards that need to get better quickly for this to happen. I think there is room for both guards from last year to grow and like that the Browns drafted someone to push them. I think they are one year away from showing what we all hope to see from them. I also think this team is being built the right way and not of smoke and mirrors. Just hope that injuries don't continue to take a toll and Browns fans can see improvement to allow Hackert to continue the good job I think he is doing.
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Legend
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The numbers don't lie.
Oh yes they do.
Numbers are objective. subjectivity is the devil. numbers don't lie- only people do. it is the job of the researcher to find the best numbers. the numbers are what they are. the best statistics may not be created yet, but that doesn't mean we should stop looking.
the eye test is a horrible thing. show one piece of film to three different people and you'll get three different results.
you cannot argue over a sample average.
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Legend
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Numbers may be objective, but the interpretation of numbers is subjective as can be.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Numbers may be objective, but the interpretation of numbers is subjective as can be.
how so? how can you argue the interpretation of a sample average?
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Legend
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Well, those ratings are subjective and make assumptions about scheme/assignment. It's not an objective rating.
Just because something has a number attached to it doesn't make it wholly objective. Figure Skating. Boxing. Hot or Not.
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I don't like PFF. I do not think they are good enough or transparent enough.
At least they try though. Those who denounce numbers IMO are simply too lazy to learn the power of them. I'd rather have subjectivity in trying to solve the problem than subjectivity in the arguments made themselves. you can fix one of the problems, the other, you cannot.
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I agree that the overall trend is too easily dismissed when it disagrees with what someone believes... I was just pointing out that "numbers don't lie" isn't really applicable when a number is an assigned a pseudo-arbitrary qualitative value by an imperfect judge.
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Quote:
Hot or Not
given a large enough sample size an argument can be made for it's objectivity (pun intended)
#gmstrong
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No- numbers cannot lie. they simply cannot. they cannot add and subtract themselves. the people who create them lie. they would have lied just the same in a non-numbers argument to make their point look better.
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When someone says "the numbers lie" it's implied that the person means "the case that is being made by the numbers presented in support of the hypothesis does not adequately reflect reality."
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Legend
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When someone says "the numbers lie" it's implied that the person means "the case that is being made by the numbers presented in support of the hypothesis does not adequately reflect reality."
A number cannot make a case. A person can. If a person makes a faulty arguments with numbers he will make a faulty argument without. Numbers are a fantastic tool, and good mathematicians and statisticians have positively impacted everything they've worked on. Football is no exception.
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Legend
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Why did Shurmer hire him?
Actually Mangini hired him. Shurmur just kept him. 
Shurmer had to give a thumbs up on keeping him, so in a round about way, he did hire him.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Legend
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I shall answer this with a poem.
No.
Our guards are bad. All stats from ProFootballFocus.com
Starting off with Shaun Lauvao. He had an overall ranking of -8.5 (-1.8 Pass and -1.4 Run). His overall ranking (among G's with 50% playing time) were 41 overall, 40th in pass blocking, and 21st in Run blocking.
My first thing I see is the large amount of penalties that reduce his rating(11 total penalties) Where he ranks as the most penalized G in the league. Even if he would have broke even with the penalties, his rating would have jumped to -2.2, which would have ranked him around 30th in G's with 50% playing time.
He also tied for the most sacks allowed with 6. However, only allowed 3 QB hits and on the higher side with 18 pressures.
week 1-4
Sacks/hits/pressures allowed (1/2/5) - 8
2 total penalties
average overall rating of -1.07 (-.5 pass and -.4 run) Per game
week 6-9
Sacks/Hits/Pressures allowed (2/1/3) - 6
3 total penalties
average overall rating of -0.9 ( -0.3 pass and -0.1) per game
week 10-13
Sacks/Hits/Pressures allowed (3/0/3) - 6
3 total penalties
average overall rating of 0.125 (0.125 pass and 0.2 Run) per game
week 14-17
Sacks/Hits/Pressures allowed (0/0/7) - 7
3 total penalties
average overall rating of -0.275 (0.225 pass and -0.05 run) per game
He had his best games against JAC and ARI where he had 3.4 and 4.5 overall ratings. His worst game was week 17 against the Steelers.
-Jason Pinkston-
He had an overall ranking of -19.5 (yes, thats a negative sign) with -5.3 in pass protection and -14.6 in run blocking. Those numbers rank him (again, among guards that played at least half the season) 53rd overall, 49th in pass, and 56th in run. He did have 4 Penalties to get ranked 26th among guards.
Pinkston was also had a league high 10 QB pressures. Also tied for 6th worst with 24 QB pressures. Was only credited with allowing 1 QB sack, though.
Week 1-4
Sacks/Hits/Pressures allowed (0/3/ - 11
1 penalty total
average overall rating of -1.45 (-.625 pass and -1.02 run) per game
Week 6-9
Sacks/Hits/Pressures allowed (0/3/5) - 8
2 Total penalties
average overall rating of -2.53 (-0.43 pass and -2.02 run) per game
Week 10-13
Sacks/Hits/Pressures allowed (1/1/1) - 3
1 penalty
average overall rating of 0.125 (-0.375 pass and .575 run)
Week 14-17
Sacks/Hits/Pressures allowed (0/0/2) - 2
0 Penalties
Average overall rating of -1.02 (1.0 pass and -1.175 run)
He had a terrible, terrible stretch in the second quarter of the season.
First...I'm not trying to challenge you in anyway.
I would like yo to explain what these numbers mean or the website they came from so I can find out for myself.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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My fault pdawg Hopefully there site can explain it easier http://www.profootballfocus.com/
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Legend
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Because numbers never tell the whole story of what happens on the field.
When you have 2 rookies on an OL, along with a beat up and slowed down RT, then everyone's performance is going to suffer. If the LG needs help, then the RG isn't going to get help. If the RG isn't getting help, and the RT is having problems, then the RG might look worse, from a numbers standpoint, then he would if there had been a veteran at LG, or a better player at RT.
Numbers always need to be interpreted and evaluated based on what is happening on the field.
A great WR with Jamarcus Russel throwing him the ball is never going to have a great year. Does that mean that the receiver is no good? The numbers might say so, but is that the whole truth?
Numbers are a part of the story. They can be used to help bolster an argument, but they never tell the whole story. Charlie Frye completed 64% of his passes in 2006. Was he a great QB? I would say that he was not.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Quote:
Because numbers never tell the whole story of what happens on the field.
When you have 2 rookies on an OL, along with a beat up and slowed down RT, then everyone's performance is going to suffer. If the LG needs help, then the RG isn't going to get help. If the RG isn't getting help, and the RT is having problems, then the RG might look worse, from a numbers standpoint, then he would if there had been a veteran at LG, or a better player at RT.
Numbers always need to be interpreted and evaluated based on what is happening on the field.
A great WR with Jamarcus Russel throwing him the ball is never going to have a great year. Does that mean that the receiver is no good? The numbers might say so, but is that the whole truth?
Numbers are a part of the story. They can be used to help bolster an argument, but they never tell the whole story. Charlie Frye completed 64% of his passes in 2006. Was he a great QB? I would say that he was not.
Read the rest of the conversation.
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Those numbers only mean something if they know the scheme and assignments on 'every' given play.
IIRC they admitted as much themselves. Until someone comes up with the grades given by our Coaching staff, then I will continue to be skeptical of other numbers that are generic in nature.
Learning to play in the trenches at this level takes time. Some say it's merely optimistic (wishful) thinking that our Guards will take a step forward, but really it's not a given, but it is natural progression.
Lauvao wasn't a rookie, but he never had the off season to learn his position either, so really all of our rookies from two years ago where behind the typical learning curve you get from rookies to their sophomore year.
Teams like us who had a coaching change where effected more so then established teams too.
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Legend
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Quote:
A great WR with Jamarcus Russel throwing him the ball is never going to have a great year. Does that mean that the receiver is no good? The numbers might say so, but is that the whole truth?
Exactly,, a good QB can really look awful if his receivers drop the ball a lot..
Sorry, I had to do it,, I just had to.... 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Or the receivers will look like they all need replaced if the QB ...... Well ...... sorry .. I had to too.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Quote:
Or the receivers will look like they all need replaced if the QB ......
Well ...... sorry .. I had to too.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Or the receivers will look like they all need replaced if the QB ......
Well ...... sorry .. I had to too.
Just as you can evaluate some thing with a QB who has little talent around him to work with ... Well so too can you see faults in a receivers game
Oh yeah! ... Sorry old boy, but I just couldn't resist.
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Legend
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Yeah ... but it's hard to catch a ball at 15 yards when the Juggs machine is set for 3 yards .......
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Yeah ... but it's hard to catch a ball at 15 yards when the Juggs machine is set for 3 yards .......
LOL. Very true.
The best thing that can happen for all of our WR's/team is for us to hit some deep passes and then there might be some room to work those 3 yard digs or drag routes and actually turn some into first downs
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Legend
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Quote:
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Why did Shurmer hire him?
Actually Mangini hired him. Shurmur just kept him.
Shurmer had to give a thumbs up on keeping him, so in a round about way, he did hire him.
Shurmur, being a first time HC with only 12 yrs in the NFL, was not in a position to make the decision on Warhop. Mangini hired Warhop in 2009 and Holmgren and Heckert kept him and Mangini's entire coaching staff when they (H&H) took over in 2010.
In another thread, I broke down Warhop's 16 year NFL record as Oline coach with 5 NFL teams
web page
George Warhop has been the Browns Oline coach since 2009 and has been a Oline coach at the Pro level since 1996.
Here is a list of Warhop's NFL record...
..the year and team...followed by where the offense ranked in points scored and total yardage.
yr..team...offensive ranking...pts.......yds...
96 Rams............................ 20.........27...
97.......................................23.........21...
98 Cards............................15..........13...
99 .....................................30..........29...
00......................................29..........24...
01......................................20..........18...
02......................................29..........27...
03 Cowboys........................21..........15...
04......................................25..........14...
05 SF 49ers........................30..........32...
06......................................24..........26...
07......................................32..........32...
08......................................22..........23...
09 Browns..........................29..........32...
10......................................31..........29...
11......................................30..........29...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The following is a summation of Warhop's NFL experience from WIKI.
Match the WIKI info to the breakdown of the offensive performance turned in by each team he coached for, and you get a better picture of Warhop's accomplishments.
From WIKI web page
National Football League Warhop was named the co-offensive line coach for the St. Louis Rams on February 8, 1996.[9] In the 1997 NFL Draft the Rams took offensive tackle Orlando Pace with the first overall selection. Pace held out of training camp for three weeks to get a bigger contract, and Warhop was angry, stating that Pace "lost a good part of the year." In an attempt to speed up the playbook-learning process, Warhop was assigned as a special tutor for Pace.[10]
Warhop was hired by the Arizona Cardinals as the offensive line coach on February 10, 1998.[11] His contract expired at the conclusion of the 2002 season, and was not re-signed.[12]
Warhop was hired by the Dallas Cowboys as their offensive line coach on January 16, 2003, following his tenure with the Cardinals.[13] In 2003 and 2004 the Cowboys' offensive line only allowed 37 sacks, while in 2002, the year before Warhop was hired, they surrendered 54 sacks.[14] After two seasons with the Cowboys, Warhop was fired on January 7, 2005.[15] Shortly after he was fired, he interviewed for the Florida State Seminoles' offensive line coach position,[16] but did not get the job.
On January 27, 2005, Warhop was hired by the San Francisco 49ers as the offensive line coach.[17] In 2006 Warhop's offensive line allowed a league-worst 55 sacks, and the 49ers hired a second offensive line coach, Chris Foerster, to share the duties.[18] Warhop was fired in-season on October 23, 2008 after his offensive line gave up a league-worst 29 sacks to that point.[19]
Warhop was hired by the Cleveland Browns as their offensive line coach on February 4, 2009.[20]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Warhop's contribution to each team as their Oline coach, has been minimal, with no major leaps in offensive performance by any of the team's where Warhop coached their Oline.
With the upgrades at RB and QB and an offense that ranked 30th in points scored and 29th in total yards...if ever a team was poised to make a leap in offensive production, it should be the Browns this season.
If Richardson and Weeden do not perform as advertised, people are going to want to know why. If Weeden is running for his life and Richardson is getting stuffed at the line of scrimmage, Warhop's performance as Oline coach will be a topic of discussion.
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The numbers don't lie.
Oh yes they do.
Numbers are objective. subjectivity is the devil. numbers don't lie- only people do. it is the job of the researcher to find the best numbers. the numbers are what they are. the best statistics may not be created yet, but that doesn't mean we should stop looking.
the eye test is a horrible thing. show one piece of film to three different people and you'll get three different results.
you cannot argue over a sample average.
Numbers don't tell the entire story, hell they don't even tell half the story, and they can be skewed one way or another way to easily. This asymmetry or inproportionate data tells us that the column contains highly skewed data.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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