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Bill Livingston

Brandon Weeden offers hope, but remains a question mark for Cleveland Browns: Bill Livingston
Published: Monday, December 10, 2012, 5:04 PM Updated: Monday, December 10, 2012, 7:11 PM
Bill Livingston, The Plain Dealer By Bill Livingston, The Plain Dealer
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weeden-shurmur-2012-chiefs-jg.jpg Brandon Weeden isn't far off the pace of Bernie Kosar's single-season passing yardage record for the Browns, but that doesn't fully convince Bill Livingston that Weeden is the 'franchise' QB. Joshua Gunter, The Plain Dealer
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CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Not to say Brandon Weeden won't cut it at quarterback with the Browns, but he does need to sharpen whatever he's been using to whittle away at the learning curve.

Sunday was another example of a mediocre performance, which feeble opposition gussied up until it was adequate. Weeden completed 17 of 29 passes for 217 yards with no touchdowns or interceptions in the 30-7 victory over Kansas City. Weeden and his bazooka arm got away with two interceptions that were dropped. To be fair, he also had a touchdown pass to Trent Richardson, which was nullified by an offensive pass interference penalty that never occurred.

He was sacked three times. Like Tim Couch, he often holds the ball too long. He does not sense blind-side pressure that well. To some extent, quarterbacks might simply have that ability innately, or not. Drew Brees, at 6-1, seems instinctively to know when to step up in the pocket or to sidle away from pressure and find a passing lane.

Is this lack of pocket awareness the reason the 6-3 Weeden had two more passes batted down Sunday and is a league leader in the category?

That the Browns don't throw as many deep balls as you might expect, given Weeden's heralded arm strength and the development of Josh Gordon and Greg Little at wide receiver, might be because of accuracy concerns. The quick-hitting passes of the West Coast offense also figure into this.

Part of Weeden's problem simply is that he is a rookie. But it would be more tolerable if he were a 22-year-old rookie and not 29. The performance "window," given his age, can be shuttered quicker than most rookies.

Weeden has completed 57 percent of his passes with 13 touchdowns and 15 interceptions. His QB rating Sunday was 79.4. For the season, it is 72.8. Colt McCoy -- castigated as mediocre by critics, although I tried not to be vociferous about it, given his poor supporting cast -- had a 74.5 rating.

At times, Weeden has been accused of every sin but being affiliated with the New York Yankees, albeit as a minor-league pitcher. Still, he has passed for 3,037 yards, which is a pace that projects to 3,738 yards. That's about a football field and a red zone short of Bernie Kosar's career best in 1986 (3,854 yards) and only 49 yards off Derek Anderson in 2007, when he played well enough to have signed a contract in blood with the devil.

The caveat on Weeden's yardage is that he was thrown into the starting role so quickly by necessity, because you don't wait on an old rookie. Both he and the young Browns were unready. Trailing much of the time, Weeden threw a lot, trying to catch up.

Asked which metric he used first to assess a quarterback, coach Pat Shurmur said, "I double-check [the stat sheet] to see if it says "win" on there first. What's most important is we want to take care of the football, we want to be efficient, you want to complete 65 percent of your balls. It all comes down to decision-making and accuracy and doing the right thing with the football."

All good decisions aren't plays that are on the highlight shows. "Sometimes it's throwing the ball away. Sometimes it's scrambling like he did on the first play of the game," said Shurmur. "That was the hardest, roughest slide I've ever seen. He took a chunk of turf out of there. I thought they would stop the game and bring out a dump truck. [Weeden] being a baseball player, it would be a little easier. "

Weeden was a pitcher, though. Pitchers don't bat anymore. Weeden's last time on the base paths was in 2002, before the Yankees drafted him at the top of the second round.

In many ways, he is still a pitcher, reliant on a strong arm.

Weeden is no diva. Nor was Vinny Testaverde a generation ago when he was the Browns' quarterback. But when either dropped back and cocked his arm, he possessed the mystique of speed, as surely as if he were toeing the rubber of a pitching mound. With it came a sometimes misbegotten belief that he could throw the ball where it rationally could not go.

Sunday, Robert Griffin III, who was selected second in the draft after Indianapolis quarterback Andrew Luck, will be at the Lakefront. The Browns had no shot at Luck, but they were out-hustled by the Washington Redskins for RG III. No such outstanding quarterbacks will be available in the coming draft.

"It's natural to compare numbers of quarterbacks playing against one another, but unless something's goofy, they'll never be on the field together," Shurmur said. "The one who's played the best is probably the one whose team wins."

Hampered by a knee sprain suffered Sunday, Griffin might not play. If so, it will only delay the day Browns fans must confront the effects of an offer that could be refused.

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Report: Browns president 'lukewarm' on Weeden developing into a star QB
By Ryan Wilson | Blogger
December 8, 2012 1:50 pm ET

7 | Comments

Back in August, new Browns owner Jimmy Haslam spoke about his plans to salvage an organization that has had exactly one playoff appearance since returning to Cleveland in 1999. One of the first questions he asked then-team president Mike Holmgren: Can Brandon Weeden play?

The Browns selected Weeden in the first round of last April's draft. While he has shown improvement over the course of his rookie season, he's also 29 years old. Former Eagles president Joe Banner has replaced Holmgren and, according to Yahoo! Sports' Jason Cole, Banner "is, at best, lukewarm on the prospects of 29-year-old rookie starter Brandon Weeden developing into a star quarterback."

Cole adds that Banner is a Michael Vick fan and notes Cleveland could be one of five teams interested in Vick if he and the Eagles part ways this offseason.

More from Cole: "In the bigger picture, the Browns have a great offensive line, a budding star running back in Trent Richardson and a pair of interesting young wide receivers (Josh Gordon and Greg Little). That's a strong nucleus in which to bring Vick, although it's also a layup drill for sarcastic media members who will point out that Vick will have joined the Dawg Pound."

The other four teams? The Bills, Jets, Cardinals and … Eagles (the assumption, of course, is that Philly will choose to keep Vick, who signed a $100 million contract before the 2011 season).

If Banner moves on from Weeden, it means the 2013 season will feature the 12th starting quarterback since the team drafted Tim Couch in 1999 (for the morbidly curious: Kelly Holcomb, Jeff Garcia, Trent Dilfer, Charlie Frye, Derek Anderson, Brady Quinn, Jake Delhomme, Seneca Wallace, Colt McCoy and Weeden are the others).

The Browns are riding a two-game winning streak. In that time, Weeden has completed two out of every three pass attempts, though he has just two touchdowns against three interceptions. But again: he's also a rookie.

There are pieces already in place -- the aforementioned offensive line and Richardson, as well as rising starts like D'Qwell Jackson and Joe Haden -- but is a legitimate franchise quarterback the biggest piece missing? Put another way: is a 32-year-old Vick, who lost his job to rookie Nick Foles, that much of an upgrade over Weeden? And not just for 2013 but for several years down the road?

Sorry, but I don't see Vick as a star QB. Not even close.

Vick has had one really good year in his entire career .... that being 2010, when he threw 21 TD against 6 INT. Other than that, the last 2 years have seen him throw 18TD/14 INT last year, and 11 TD/9 INT this year. This was with the Iggles going all out in free agency.

In Philly he has a legitimate superstar RB in McCoy. Last year McCoy ran for 1309 yards, 4.8 yards/carry, (not his career high either) and a staggering 17 TD runs.

They have Maclin at WR. He is one of the most dynamic receivers in the league. They have a plus quality TE in Celek.

Sure he has a poor OL, but he doesn't even look like a QB this year. Foles is out-performing him, and I don't think that Foles is all that good.

Back to Vick, he's also only 6' on his tip toes. I am sick and tired of short QBs.

Bleh. I'll be really disappointed if we go sign Vick in this off-season.I will have to go get a Banner voodoo doll and stick it full of railroad spikes.

I don't know if Weeden can become a star QB or not, but I would rather see him get a 2nd year to see where he is at that point than go sign a guy like Vick.

If Joe Banner has much input in football decisions it could be it for me.

I would also add this:

If Weeden throws for 267 or more yards in his final 3 games of this season combined, he will hit a passing yardage that Vick has never hit in his entire career.

Weeden has thrown 43 passes of 20+ yards this year. Vick has only beaten that level once, when he threw for 50 in 2010. That means that Weeden would have to throw 7 in his final 3 games to reach Vick's best in that regard.

Vick's best as far as TD passes would be 21. Weeden has 13 so far. It's unlikely that he will tie Vick's best in his rookie year, but if he can throw 4 more in the final 3 games, he would beat all but 3 of Vick's seasons.

If we want pass completion percentage, well, Vick has only crossed 60% one time in his entire career. He was 58.5% this year and 59,8% last year. Weeden is at 57% right now.

In other words .... I don't see any advantage to bringing in a guy like Vick with 9 years experience when he's not much of an upgrade over the rookie we have in place right now. I would rather see how Weeden develops with an entire off-season program.

I agree with most of the first article. I think it's a fair assessment on Weeden thus far and states legitimate concerns that Haslam and Banner have to assess. I felt that the pick of Weeden was a wrong reach, but now we have no better option between him or McCoy unless they bring in a veteran QB. I don't like the options out there for potential free agents or rookie prospects. Getting a QB next year through the draft would be massive waste and impede the development of this team. We are in a position to shore up the defense next year and make that group able to carry this team. If Weeden isn't the man, I hope we are not looking in the draft until 2014 at the earliest. The only other stop gap that may be suitable (enter Toad any time) would be Jason Campbell. (I'm not even his biggest fan, BTW)

Regardless of what happens, we will see a decision made by the FO regarding McCoy and Weeden.

Don't hate

Ugh Jason Campbell had been abysmal this season. Even if he survives his backup duty, I would want no part of him. He's been an "OK" type of QB, but never anything even remotely resembling a game changer.

Weeden still has the potential to be that kind of guy, and it's obvious that he hasn't at all hurt the development of our WRs. I don't want an older has been ..... I want to see if the guy we have can develop into an upper tier QB. I have every reason to believe that he can be better than a Vick or a Campbell. He already is better, as a rookie, in some regards.

Man, I will go out of my mind if we go back to almost exclusively dink and dunk crap. I will be furious. I want an explosive offense, and we are becoming just that as this offense matures. If we bring in some crappy older QB to dink and dunk our way to FG tries, I will be flat out PO'd. We've seen that script play out a lot over the past 13 or so years. I want no part of a sequel. I hope we're smart enough to go down that road again.

I am officially beginning to get worried about this new front office.

I think we'll be OK if we somehow manage to keep Heckert ..... but if not, God only knows what kind of destruction we'll see.

I'm not going to worry about anything until something actually happens to give me cause to be concerned. Since my tea leaf reader is broken I'm going to wait on official reports. Even at that point it's something I can't change so I'm not sure its ever going to be worth worrying about.

Some folks around here keep saying if this or that happens their done. If you don't want to emotionally invest any longer in the team, that's fine, free country, do what you want. But put your inner child away and don't talk about it, like the Nike ad says, "Just Do It".

I can't exactly pinpoint it, but I'm feeling better about Weeden then I did earlier in the season. He may be 29 years old, but he's a rookie. Still learning just like any other rookie.

One thing I think is safe to say, since the return, he's probably the best rookie QB we've had. Better than Couch, Frye, Quinn and for me, while the jury is still out on McCoy cause I didn't get to see him play with this talent around him, he is probably better than McCoy.

J/C

Weeden shows a lot of potential. His main issue is learning not to hold onto the ball for as long as he does. He does his best work when he gets the ball out of there quickly. Screen passes are some of his worst plays, too. He needs to find the other receivers on the field if there's no chance for a big play. He missed a wide open Greg Little this past sunday on a designed screen pass. The game still seems a bit too fast for the kid.

Hopefully he finishes strong this season. Gordon and Little are key to Weeden's end of season finish. Little is turning into the possession threat guy whereas Gordon is turning into the big play threat. Hopefully Weeden can find these two quicker on the field.

Part of it all will simply be learning to recognize NFL defenses better, and what their alignment means as far as who should be open on a given play.... as he gets better at that, it'll help him find the open guy that much quicker.

He also needs to simply learn to trust that a receiver will be where they are supposed to be so that he doesn't have to stare the WR down to see when he's going to get somewhere. As that develops, he'll better be able to be looking at guys on the left while knowing in his head exactly where the guy on the right should be, so he can set the feet, snap-look at get the ball there if the guy is open.

Experience is that thing you get right after you needed it..... he's still getting it.

Ah, the Quarterback question??

Yes there are many ways to look at this question. As jiggins has pointed out:

"If we make a change, who else is available that could be an improvement?"

In addition, I think you have to look at the competition. Did you watch Brady last night?

The "end game" is can you win a Championship? To do so you have to able to win games against guys like Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Brees, Ben, Eli. Can Weeden beat guys like that in the playoffs? No.

Does he have the potential of guys like Luck, Griffin, Russell, or Tannehill? I don't think so.

Is age a factor? Yes, to a degree because an investment is always tied to time. But more importantly the main question is: Does Weeden have the skillset to compete at the highest level?

I do not believe that he does. When you watch the games there is enough evidence to see that he is a beat behind the game. He has very poor awareness in the pocket. He does not anticipate well. He is inconsistent with accuracy. He waits to see a receiver open and is often late. He has had plenty of ints and close to one a game or more of dropped interceptions. Which indicates his decision making is poor.

We all want him succeed. So when we see him make a good throw we are all grins. He has size. He has a strong arm. He can make the downfield throws. Those skills however are not enough. You need them but it has to be backed up with the mental capacity to recognize the given defense and make the right decision.

Peyton, Brady and guys in that class are masters of pre-snap information. They recognize in split seconds what to do with the ball. They anticipate. They check off at the line. They give false reads with their eyes.

I don't believe Weeden will get there and if he ever did it he would be too old to make it matter.

So, Alex Smith is a potential option if made available by the 49'ers. He is better than Weeden and could be a decent temporary fix. He is good enough to win with the right pieces behind him. The Browns team has those pieces.

The draft. The one guy I like in this draft is Tyler Wilson. Watch his games against South Carolina, and Mississippi State. If their coach had stayed and the team around him was better he would be a top pick. He is a leader and throws the ball very well. I would think he would be available when the Browns do pick no matter their draft slot.

You draft Wilson. Go to camp with an open true competition. You do not have to start Wilson. You can start the player who plays the best be that McCoy, Weeden or Wilson.

Think Seattle. They traded for Matt Flynn. Had Whitehurst before letting him go. Then drafted Russell who won the job.

In answer to the question - Is Weeden The Guy?
To me if he is make him prove it. Do not put all your eggs in his basket.

What needs to happen is for this team to REALLY kick it into gear and win out. That would put an unimaginable amount of pressure on Banner to retain Heckert...

For a paper (Plain Dealer) that usually sugarcoats the Browns to the point of being in denial about how bad they've been for years, I find this article about Weeden to be weirdly negative- especially after they've won 3 games in a row.

Here's what *I've* noticed about Weeden. First, his drop back speed has improved greatly. In the first handful of games he played, I noticed his drop back after taking the ball from center was pretty, uh, casual. Now he has begun to drop back much faster and get the ball out. I also have noticed that, generally, he is taking better care of the ball and, unlike earlier in the season, he's being a lot smarter about throwing it away when there's no play. While this article points out that he holds on to the ball too long, I've notice that he actually ISN'T doing that as much as he was before.

Most rookie QBs throw more than their fair share of INTs. Weeden is getting better at limiting those as well. I think that, overall, his accuracy is getting better, too.

Weird, weird article. Sounds like Mr. Livingston is living in his own reality.

You have to understand, when the team was losing, drumming up controversy was easy. Now that they have some wins going, they have to dig deeper to stir the pot. It's just the media's agenda in general. Controversy sells.

They are comparable. Tannehill has more upside and is younger.

A reason why QBs that enter the NFL at a late age fail comes down to various reasons.
I have wondered how much time Weeden has left in regards to his premeium athletic abilities?
whats that age they say RB's get to when they start going downhill?
Theres a peak that a football player reaches the top of his game and then starts to descend.
You get some guys like Ray Lewis and Tony Gonazelez who still put out at a high level at advanced age. But thats the exception,not the norm.
Weeden I think is getting to that age.
another thing,how much is left in his right arm? He did play baseball in the minor leagues throwing in the mid 90's.
in this day and age of football,teams that draft QBs and play them right away expect them to produce right away.
the learning curve isn't what it used to be.
QBs in high school,and college are so much advanced now than they were 15-20 years ago.
Weeden doesn't overwhelm you with any of his skill sets. what does he do that shows us he can be a top tier QB?
he's had better pass blocking than any Browns QB in recent memory.
He's not throwing to bums like Briana Robiskie and Mohammed Massqiou.
He's going to end up with a lot of passing yardage.
But its not hard for a QB to eclipse 3,000 and up. Its a passing league now.
the old 3,000 yards is now 3,500 yards. The bar has been raised.
Its quite possible Weeden has already peaked as a QB..
he may not get any better

Quote:

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He does his best work when he gets the ball out of there quickly.

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He does. When Weeden drops back to pass, if you can see that he has looked at his first and second option and neither was available, then I start to worry. Something bad is about to happen. He's either going to force one into double coverage or he's going to take the sack.

Oddly enough I think this, in its own way, shows growth. Earlier in the season he would look downfield for a second and if what he was looking for wasn't open he would dump it off... he is at least trying to get something downfield if his first read isn't open... and I think that's good. Now he just needs to find that balance and start listening to the clock in his head... if I have time to yell out loud, "THROW THE BALL" 3 times after he has already surveyed the field once, he's holding it too long.