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As I see it, if this team is as good or better next year on defense, you will do whatever you need to do in order to not give any credit to the new regime that you loath so much..
Incorrect. I just feel it's pretty foolish of people to actually believe that a 4-3 D was just as equally gifted to convert to the 3-4.
That makes zero sense. So we'll see....
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I understand the concerns with Sheard converting to OLB. No one knows what will happen. I do know that coming out of college (only two years ago) he was projected to be a 3-4 outside linebacker.
So was Kameron Wimbley and a host of others who disappointed in the 3-4. Projections mean very little in that regard.
And the questions are most of the LBer's including DQ who did very poorly in the 3-4 before along with all of the DT's.
No need to list them because we have no idea if any of them will truly transition to the 3-4. The only acception is Rubin who has done a pretty good job at NT in the past.
Otherwise, the entire list is nothing more than a list of ????
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Another question, what would you rather have? A) People running a team with a scheme they are not familiar/comfortable with. B) People running a team with a scheme they are familiar/comfortable with Quote:
And while we do have "bodies" to play all the positions, to feel, expect and think they will play as well in the 3-4 as they did in the 4-3 is nothing more than a pipe dream.
Last year our defense was 14th in points, 23rd in yards allowed, 25th in passing defense, and 19th in run defense. We had the 14th most sacks. It's not like we are breaking up a great defense.
I expect our defense to be better than last year because we will have better coaching and better players. If our defense is not better at the end of the season I will be disappointed and will say so. I will not freak out if after four games our defense is below average.
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I'm a FAN...I'm a big time Homer n don't see how that is possibly considered a negative  Whatever we do I wish to believe we will WIN this year...I hate to lose but don't go suicidal if we do. I stopped trying to be the genius who knew better than Not other posters but our GMs n Coaches. I instead tried to see the vision they had n make heads or tails of it. All I know is this. My personal taste aside I got on board with the O systems n the D systems. Tried to see the potential in our youth n where the Vets fit in. Most posters will snicker n state under breath...yeah n you were always Wrong.
Maybe so..maybe not. What I do know is we never stuck with anything PLAN...Never stuck with any SYSTEM. Even the last group who thought they had it all secure for at least 5 years...were done after 3. Butch n RAC had 4 but were all but done after 3. I was never a fan of the 4-3 nor WCO but studied both n got into it. Cause I chose to be a FAN the only way I knew and that was to be a HOMER n buy in.
All I know is we got a knew owner...I was scared poopless about Banner. But you know what...Power - Totalitarianism is not bad in football. The more I see some decisions made the more I can buy in n believe in Banner/Lombardi.
The System...I cannot exclaim my enthusiasm that we have chosen our new LONG TERM PATH (They better be true to their words  ) cause it just so happens my PERSONAL choice of system is exactly what we are looking to utilize on both Offense n especially Defense.
I don't need BOZO's to tell me about our team...as if they know...talking about RUBIN as a DE  Bozoism at its best. I'm sure if injuries mount at DE he can fill in there. But he was a darn good NT. Anyways...where players go...I will do my homer thing n believe Horton actually knows more than I n in what he sees in our players. We do have good young talent...and I'll tell you this (anyone who ever played the game can attest to this) There is NOT A DEFENSIVE PLAYERS who does NOT like to ATTACK!!! The kids will get into it fast n the passion for it will be infectious! I've always been happy to be a Browns fan - I don't care about the heart ache...It is better to have loved n lost than to never have loved. WE GOT OUR BROWNS BACK! But with this staff n system n the premise/promise to stick long term with it! I am ECSTATIC...there is that HOMER enough for you all. I do object to labels cause a dawg might use it to discredit me...oh he's a HOMER what he says cannot be believed.
Just don't fear me. Don't think I'm uppity. Don't expect me to dummy down my football. I write little Novella's so that I don't THROW MY OPINION DOWN PEOPLES THROATS but give them my PURE FOOTBALL LOGIC I have behind it...cause there usually is a method to my madness. So I don't know what Percentile I belong in and quite frankly I don't care...I try to respect all of you... You have no idea how much I like ya all as people cause you are ACES in my book cause you love the same team I DO!
Any player we spend 7 mil on a year...we expect him to be a starter n provide some Impact...That would be Bryant at DE n Kruger at OLB. Groves n the TE kid...bring it on n get into it n make good of your opportunities 
I like the job Farmer did...Banner n yes even Lombardi 
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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The articles at the end of the season are all that matter. A writer singing praises for what they project on paper is as meaningless as a Draft grade given before the first Mini-Camp has even taken place. I'll save my excitement for when this group actually does something on a field.
I understand what you are saying and don't disagree in principle, but none the less, I am at least a little excited.
In the Ravens case, change isn't good. In our case, change brings renewed hope.
No?
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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And the questions are most of the LBer's including DQ who did very poorly in the 3-4 before along with all of the DT's.
Jackson was very good in the 3-4 in 2008. He was then injured and missed most of 2009 and all of 2011.
I believe that were question marks with the linebackers even if we didn't switch. I would have had very little confidence in Robertson, Fort, and/or Johnson being effective long term players fgr us. Robertson and Fort are both situational players (as are most linebackers). Johnson had the best and has the best chance of sticking.
Taylor has never played in the 3-4 in the pros, neither has Hughes, Winn, or Kitchen. But all their skills translate well to the 3-4.
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Otherwise, the entire list is nothing more than a list of ????
Answer this question: How many holes needed to be filled if we stayed with the 4-3?
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Finally a poster I can relate to. I think I see it the same way you do.
I must admit I wanted the switch. I don't feel we had the necessary pieces to play great defense in the 4-3. I know I was in the minority there, but Its just how I saw it. I was not a huge fan of the Kruger signing but I do understand it. He fits what we want to do and has the experience playing as an OLB. Avril did not and that was more then likely why he wasn't signed.
It looks like the brass wants Kruger and Bryant to become two of our starters on the front 7. I'm not sure what this means to some of our other D-linemen yet. Maybe we move one maybe we don't. Either way wouldn't surprise me.
I'm completely with you on DQ, again in the minority. He is just serviceable to me. I'd rather see D. Jones or Dansby brought here to replace him. He could be let go and find a team that plays a 4-3 where he is a more natural fit.
Going by what we did as a defense last year I'm not sure we took a step backwards per say. I think the scheme itself will be a step forward, if that makes sense. I truly believe by the end of the year our defense will be at least statistically better then it was this past year, and with a few more pieces will be much improved.
"If people don't occasionally walk away from you shaking their heads, you're doing something wrong." John Gierach
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"Taylor has never played in the 3-4 in the pros, neither has Hughes, Winn, or Kitchen. But all their skills translate well to the 3-4"
I was enjoying this recourse between you and Pit,really didn't want to interrupt,but;
Do you think you could expand on that statement?
Exactly what skills do each of these linemen possess that would allow them to perform well in an even or odd front?
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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I feel the same way. It seems like these guys have a plan and they are executing it. BTW, I miss and always enjoyed your "what I saw" posts that seemed to get post game discussions initiated constructively. I hope you do it this coming season.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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I believe that Taylor has the size and quickness to play both nose tackle and end in the 3-4. His size and strength will allow him to occupy blockers and make the tackles if a player comes in his area as a nose tackle. As an end his quickness along with his size and strength will help penetrate the line causing one of several things; he will beat his man (assuming Rubin, the nose tackle, is being double teamed) and have a clear shot at the QB/RB, he will be double teamed leaving one of the other defensive linemen one-on-one, or he will occupy his man/men leaving the outside rusher a one-on-one matchup. Taylor will be useful against both the run and the pass for the above reasons.
Hughes, Kitchen, and Winn are all situational player that will be able to do single aspects of what I believe Taylor will be able to do all by himself. I believe Hughes and Kitchen will be able to occupy blockers and play well against the run and Winn will be able to penetrate against slower guards against the pass.
Rubin is a prototypical nose tackle and has been successful in that role previously.
I don't know much about Desmond Bryant.
Ideally you would want to draft and develop players to fill these roles. But most 3-4 defensive ends were at some point defensive tackles in their career.
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That was a good answer,a wee bit optimistic,but a good answer none the less.
One thing I will take from that,any linemen that is big,strong and quick can play in either scheme,is that what you're saying?
One thing I have maintained,I think forever,is it's never about the scheme,it's about the talent.
You put enough talented players on the field,you'll be successful,regardless of scheme.
The Browns don't have enough talented players,although by all accounts they've added 2 more,but still 3 short of a dozen.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Glad to see you made it over Eotab!
I like this move and think we probably need to add one more...
it will be interesting to see what they think of Sheard by what they do with the #6 pick....if they think he is a bona fide starter they may go corner/offense with that pick and address OLB in the mid rounds for a developmental guy but if not they could go with a guy like Dion Jordan as an Aldon Smith style guy
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Quote:
One thing I will take from that,any linemen that is big,strong and quick can play in either scheme,is that what you're saying?
Big men that can run usually can play in any defense. I will add that they have to be smart enough to know what they are doing.
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You put enough talented players on the field,you'll be successful,regardless of scheme.
Heckert was a good GM. He got us many talented players. I was/am conflicted about his departure.
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Getting the OLB's doesn't mean we won't draft one you are correct. What it does mean is we don't HAVE to get an OLB at 6 like we would have without the signings.That alone makes it less likely we won't go OLB in rnd 1 now
I'm loving the ability to go BPA in the draft....have not seen that in a while.
Against logic,the most effective armor is willful ignorance.
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Vers, you were happy the previous SIX running the 3-4? The GLORIOUS 3-4 we ran under Ryan got us two 5-11 seasons. Under RAC before him got us ONE winning season and our D SUCKED that year.
The premise they are going by is that our current roster was BETTER suited for a 3-4. That's what you've been harping about since Chud was hired. He will change his system to fit our current players..... so that means our current players are BETTER suited for our new D right? GREAT. LOVE that. I can expect a GREAT defense starting in September because our former regime were idiots playing all of our players out of position..All these defensive tackles we are collecting will pay off..... ..
The real truth is we were far better suited to run a 4-3. They could have changed philosophy of how to RUN our 4-3 to attack..... But talent wise we were a LOT farther along building a 4-3. They decided to make HUGE holes on this roster. So I don't want to hear excuses that we don't have the players to run it. Come September I expect to see a top notch defense.
They can sign ten more defensive tackles. Fine with me. They seem to be collecting them for some strange reason. But I better see wins come September.....
You know what, you're absolutely right. The 3-4 is a one size fits all defense. Belichick, LeBeau, Phillips, Capers, they all run it the same way. What were we thinking!!!!!
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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I have to admit that I like our signings so far though if you look at who we signed, it is a little hard to understand considering we were 10th in total defense and 25th in total offense last year...
I know switching to the 3-4 requires some adjustments and I'm glad we aren't waiting 3 or 4 years to draft all of our 3-4 guys... but is anybody else beginning to wonder if we aren't setting our draft up to go offense, offense, offense? Though we do still need secondary help..
There has been a philosophy I've heard several times over the years and mostly during F/A and before the draft.
For the most part, "Draft Offense and sign F/A Defense players".
It's thought/said for the most part that O players (QB's, RB's, WR's, LT's, etc) are more inclined to be head cases during F/A with their me-me-me-me-me attitude shining much more brightly during the F/A period, hence signing F/A D players and drafting O players.
Not that there aren't a few HEAD CASE CB's in the league. 
Let this sink in..... On 12-31-23 it be will 123123.
On the flip side, you can tune a piano but you can't tune-a-fish.
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GREAT. LOVE that. I can expect a GREAT defense starting in September because our former regime were idiots playing all of our players out of position..All these defensive tackles we are collecting will pay off..... ..
I thought you were going to cool it w/this regime stuff? Every post you make is slanted. You are knocking every move. You are negative about everything. You are making crazy demands.
You have the potential to be a great poster. You have knowledge. You are intelligent. Too bad you can't let go of your bitterness.
For the record, I don't think we needed to shift to a 3-4. I don't prefer one defense over the other. I didn't think we needed to switch to a 4-3 last time, but it wasn't a huge deal. This switch isn't that huge of a deal either. Would the transition have been easier if we stayed in a 4-3? Sure, it would have been.
With that said, we brought in an aggressive head coach who favors attacking on both sides of the ball. We then brought in an excellent D-coordinator who is very aggressive. This is the defense they wanted. I can live w/that. I don't think the transition is going to be as big of a challenge as you do. Will there be some guys who don't fit? Yes, there will be, but we still needed many of the same pieces.
We needed a corner. We still do. We needed a FS. We still do. We needed an edge rusher. We took care of that. We needed help at LBer. We still do. The only thing I see is that we are going to have to get one more LBer than we would have. I think our d-line is going to rotate like crazy and we are going to go after the qb hard.
I also can't understand why you keep acting like we are going to be in a 3-4 all the time. Horton himself said we would run multiple fronts. 3-man fronts. 4-man fronts. 5-man fronts.
We are going to be mixing things up a lot. Trying to confuse the offenses. Bringing guys from different places. You always used to complain about not pressuring the qb, yet now we get a guy who wants to do just that, and you are complaining again.
And I think you are dead wrong to pigeon-hole players into one position. I think you are going to see most of the guys lining up in various places. This isn't the NFL of the 1970s.
I have a big concern. If you wanna complain, perhaps you should switch your argument to this. You really expose your secondary when you attack so much. You better have corners who can cover and a FS who can roam the field. Yes, quick pressure will hide some problems in the secondary. However, there are going to be plenty of times the pressure won't get there. Our secondary is a huge weakness.
Haden is pretty good, but overrated by most. There are WRs who run away from him when they run crossing routes. Yes, those plays take time to develop, but he gives up those plays. I am not saying he is weak, but he is not quite as great as almost everyone says he is.
Our other corner is a huge question mark? It better not be Skrine or we are in trouble. We need a corner. BAD!
Ward is good in the run game. He will probably blitz a lot under Horton. He will make big plays. But, he is terrible in pass coverage. Some of the worst hips I have ever seen. Doesn't read well. Gets lost in space.
FS? We don't have one and this is the most glaring need on our team. Mike Adams is good enough for Denver, but not us.  I am not saying he is great, but he is better than what we currently have. All I know is that we really need an upgrade here. I wanted Golston from SF so bad. Detroit just got Houston's FS. I hope we address this position.
So, if you want to continue your subtle bashing of the FO, perhaps you shift your focus to them not improving the secondary. At least you would have some ammunition.
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good stuff Vers, and here's hoping we get Rhodes to patch that FS spot.
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I am thinking more and more about this move ...... and how this guy is supposed to be extremely fast ..... and I wonder how he would be in coverage.
The reason I ask is this ...... we currently have an opening at ILB ...... and in Horton's defense, it seems as though his ILB needs to be able to cover ...... and it seems like Groves might have the ability to do it. I wonder if he could be an ILB for us?
If he could, then a starting 4 of Sheard, Groves, DQ, and Kruger would combine pass rush ability with speed, and might just be pretty good.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Groves main asset is his speed and ability to get that edge on the pass rush. You move him to ILB and you take away that asset.
Maybe Horton could use him like Daryl Washington when DQ subs out, but I wouldn't mess with what worked on Groves.
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Yeah, but my thinking is this:
If we use Sheard at one OLB spot, and Kruger at the other, then where does Groves fit in? As a backup? I was trying to figure out how they get him on the field, and with his speed, that seems like a possibility ...... especially with Horton's affinity for "big men who can run".
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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As a backup?
Yes.
definitely. his best use is situational and his contract bears out that is what we have in mind.
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For what its worth, Groves did play some ILB while in Oakland. Don't have any details on how well he played there.
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Answer this question: How many holes needed to be filled if we stayed with the 4-3?
3 Maybe 4.
Now? We have no idea until the rubber hits the road.
And as I stated and you know all too well. The old line about "their skills translate well" actually means very little. We have seen this logic in many draft flops all across this league.
Once again, we don't have a clue how many of our current players will respond to the 3-4.
I don't even know why you would suggest otherwise.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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[Talking about how many needs we had if we had stayed with the 3-4] Quote:
3 Maybe 4.
I assuming you would be talking about defensive end, corner, and safety. With the maybe being an outside linebacker.
With the 3-4 we needed an outside linebacker, corner, and a safety. Maybe another inside linebacker.
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And as I stated and you know all too well. The old line about "their skills translate well" actually means very little. We have seen this logic in many draft flops all across this league.
We have also seen players who seem to be built for a certain system flop.
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Once again, we don't have a clue how many of our current players will respond to the 3-4.
If we had stayed with the 4-3 how do we know that Sheard hasn't plateaued? Maybe this is as good as he was going to get.
No one knows for certain how any unestablished player will do any system. The main point is that no new holes were created by switching defenses. Are there unknowns? Yes. But there are no new holes. We have players that are capable of playing these new positions.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Sign Quentin Groves
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