DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Browns and the screen pass

I'll take up Versatile's challenge of more football talk and less pro/anti front office politics. Not because I know a lot of X's and O's but I'm up for learning.

My question...The Browns are bad both executing the screen pass and defending the screen pass. As I was typing that last sentence the question crossed my mind; is that a coincidence? But, my main question is how can the new defense better defend this play? (I'm talking outside screen, the middle screen would seem to need a different counter attack). I'm concerned because the new attack philosophy would seem to make the defense even more vulnerable to it.

Here's what I think I know. The OL wants to draw a hard upfield rush so the three DL and at least one of the LB's (ILB ?) will get too deep into the backfield.The OLB on the play side will need to try to defeat a double team and the other inside backer will need to come inside out quickly before the back gets going. If I were running this play against Cleveland I would run it away from both Haden and Ward. In last year's scheme I think they usually line up on the same side of the field. The most effective defense would seem to be if the Safety could read the screen early and come down hard before the convoy gets set up. In any event the CB and Safety will have to be able to penetrate the convoy of OL to turn the direction of the ball carrier inside where help should be coming.

If the defense is in a package that has Winn, possibly Bryant or maybe even Taylor at the DE then maybe they are able to add pursuit from behind. I think the play is most likely to be stopped by a combination of S/ILB/CB/OLB.

Respectfully I ask that we keep the focus on play execution. Thoughts?

I'm more concerned as to why the offense can't execute it..

Who cares what side, neither the offense could execute one and neither the defense could stop one.

Not to take away from or to add to any other debate that has been made thus far, but in the 3-4 it is about the secondary here.

In an attacking style of the 3-4, you count on the S's and the CB's to read the screen much more than in the 4-3.

It's why some are so very concerned about the state of our secondary more so than others seem to be.

As far as executing the screen goes, it's not what many consider a hard play to execute. Whether it was the coaching or the execution by the players themselves I can't say. A lot will be told in how the screen is executed under a new coaching staff.

The only ones on the team that do a good job at selling the screen are the receivers. I have seen all the QBs eyeball the back which is a major telegraph. The back takes a look over his shoulder before he gets into his spot. Our offensive linemen are horrible actors. I thought Schwartz was actually better at selling the screen better than anyone.

Then a major issue I had with the timing of our screen passes. In my opinion the best time to use the playaction screen to the back is when you are running the ball well between the tackles and really making defenses play on their heals. If the defense is being rocked in the run game, they get all excited expecting the playaction and looking for it. They become more aggressive and they get burned.

My favorite screen is the TE slip Screen, Again it takes hammering the ball up the gut and having those linebackers pile into the middle of the field. You have your blocking TE block and get beat slips out and then room to run with everyone either going for the back or the QB.

Anyway sorry for rambling but back to timing. We have often used the playaction RB screen when everyone knew we had to pass. Instant failure. We used the TE screen after bring in a guy that can't block and can only catch. Hello, McFly!!!

The WR screens however, we are effective using. I think we should have used them more last year with teams playing 10 yards off of Gordon. Our OL, backs and other receiver are fantastic at laying those cutback blocks.

Chud loves the FB screen, we tried the fb screen the last couple of years and it was the one play that always worked perfectly except for the part where the FB catches the ball lol. I think we will look for Harvard to solve our FB problems, just saying lol.


Now for our defensive struggles, NO PASS rusher!!!!! I know it sounds silly because to stop the screen u need to sniff out the pass attempt and not rush but when you have guys that are getting stone walled and all of a sudden they get by the offensive tackle, they are going woo hoo I did it. Now I can unload on the QB. Then of course the linebacker gets slammed with a cutback block from the receiver and the DE has already sold out so you have a corner trying to stop a back in the open field with a bunch of 300 pound offensive linemen leading the way.

It will get better under Chud.

TRich will be hard to stop on a Screen ... JMHO

I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to Xs and Os, so take this with a grain of salt.

Offense: I feel like our screen passes were way too predictable and never sold very well. It felt like the timing was way off between the O-line and the QB. The DL would get through too easily and they'd realize something was wrong, so they'd jump the screen.

Defense: So frustrating. I think this came down to being too predictable, too. We must have a tell because it seems other teams run screen passes at absolutely ideal times.

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I think the problem lies with the guards not being quick enough to get down field, just a guess though.

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Guard quickness had really nothing to do with our failures on screens. In fact, our OL did a great job of getting up field when the screen was successful. The plays were blown up behind the line where quickness of your OL just doesnt have an impact. Heck our guards would release and often the defender just ran straight to the guy that the play was designed to go to. DL obviously were able to detect some kind of tell sign the offense was giving up.

I agree with you on the tell. The main thing that drives me nuts is that we seem to have had that tell since the return in '99. I don't remember any of our teams being able to consistently and successfully run a screen.

Think about the Eagles. For so long, they ran devastating screens. And you knew that they were going to run them. Yet they worked over and over and over.

For us, we'd be able to maybe run one a game, but even that was a crap shoot.

The simple reasons our offense cannot execute a screen is two-fold.

1. Inability to force the LBs out of position.
The screen pass works best when the LBs have vacated the middle of the field, either getting upfield rushing or spreading out into coverage. The point is to call the screen when you have a mathematical advantage (your 2-3 lineman and back vs. 1-2 LBs directly in front of lineman and the DBs spread out downfield. Typically teams do not blitz linebackers against our offense because they can be successful with a base setup. Therefore we would run the screen pass right at waiting LBs. Which takes us to reason #2.

2. Timing
The screen is most effective in similar situations as you'd run the draw play. To keep the defense honest because they are cheating on a key, e.g. bringing the house in obvious passing situations.

Shurmur might have been the worst play caller I've ever seen. His all short crossing patterns offense kept too many players both in the middle of the field and near the LoS. And would try to catch teams "off guard" early in the game with screens when LBs were just short of disrespecting our offense by playing straight base, no blitzing.

I had many an argument with one of the guys we watch Browns games with about the timing of screen calls as I considered it a waste of a down when you we would call the screen in a situation in which our O was outnumbered. It drove me mad. He would argue the system needed the play call to setup other things in the offense.

My point is that football is essentially a math problem. How can I get more of my guys and the football in an area than the other guys have. Shurmur, and subsequently the Browns, perennially failed in this regard.

Offensively, I think the problem comes down to lack of patients involving the QB and the running back. The Browns appear to show the screen too quickly. The other ingredient is play calling. I'm hopefuly Turner will be less obvious about calling it.

I got the smack down from the referees shortly after coming back to this board regarding the site,Dawgs by Nature. In spite of that, Dawgs by Nature published several detailed reports about the Air Coryell scheme. A key component is that the stem of every receiver's pass route is designed to look the same. If this is a feature of Turner's screen and he teaches it that way, the offense might get better at running it.

I think they have trouble with the short passes because they don't throw enough of the deep routes. Same old story since 1994, thus the screen name.

Good thread.

But, before I get started, there was one poster who once again made a big point about us running a 3-4. Here is a direct quote from Horton about that:

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(On how much of an overhaul he has to do to the defense to turn it into a 3-4)- “Going back, I use the word multiple front. Coach Rob uses hybrid. They’re the same term. They’re just different semantics of language. We are going to be a defense that gives offenses problems. Our guys can play a multitude of things. I don’t like to get pigeonholed into, ‘Well, he is this.’ Here’s what we’re going to be. We’re going to be a team that looks at the offense and tries to take away what they do best. Now, that may mean one snap being a 5-2. The next snap it may be a 4-4.

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Thus, it is not wise to say we are strictly running a 3-4. We're not.

To the thread:

Guard, you bring up a good point about us perhaps being vulnerable to screen passes this year. We are supposedly going to attack in the attempt to bring a lot of pressure. Opposing offenses could exploit that by throwing a lot of screens against us. How do we stop it:

--Coaching. We are really going to have to do a great job of teaching our defensive linemen to recognize screens. This will be taught in film study and countless practice scenarios.

--Inside linebackers: When we are in a 3-4, our ILBers will be asked to provide a lot of pass coverage. These guys are going to have read the screen quickly and defend it. When we are in a 4-3, DQ will be important. He does a decent job of sniffing out screens, although sometimes his angle to the ball is too sharp.

--TJ Ward: While he stinks in downfield coverage, Ward is okay in the flat. He has a pretty good short-area burst and he will need to sniff some of these plays out.

--Haden reads things fairly well and has the guts to come flying up to blow-up such plays.

Offensively, there are a couple of keys:

--If we indeed do run the Vertical Stretch offense, I can see the screen becoming a bigger part of the offense. We will spread teams out more rather than having the D packed in like they were the last two years. Deeper routes and the willingness to throw them should open up space for the screen.

--I think TRich can be very effective w/the screen. He has good hands and does well in space, where he doesn't get lost in traffic like he does on many running plays.

--Weeden needs to improve. He doesn't sell the screen very well. He is so terrible in the pocket. We really need this kid to grow.

I thought this was O. Not too difficult, and can be devastating. We failed to sell it on O, and not a lot of variety in the play design. If you look at receivers early, it's a tell, and we did that. A passing team gets it more easily. We needed more of these in my opinion to keep the D honest. You don't have to run it often, but if you really hurt the D, it can slow them down. They need to be aware of it much of the time afterward.
As an important side note, Landry was a genius on O, and especially screens. Had them to each side middle, even double screens where you fake one, draw the D, and throw it away from the defense. Norv has that ability IMO, and can see the need for some more misdirection, screens among the.

The D usually has assigned keys for formations. When people leave or don't block, you look for it. I think we ignored a lot of plays outside, and ran the middle too much and too predictably for what we got last season.

Was going to point out right as you did that screens are all about sales and deception.

Veteran teams that are committed to deception make screens and trick plays work consistantly.

Rookies and younger players who don't, don't.

Sitting in the comfort of my living room watching a large HDTV I can be tricked sometimes by good teams (or not see the screen coming/developing).

Watching Weeden last year he would look for Richardson two steps into the drop back, T-Rich would drift obviously out and it was just dead obvious from the snap that a screen was coming.

That's not going to work most of the time.

j/c

http://www.youtube.com/v/1V6GA2JskAQ&feature=youtu.be

You can communicate with many friends, maybe you can find the best answer


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In the video you provided it looked as if the players who failed to execute their assignments properly were Lauvao on one play then Mack on the other. It's likely that keys read by the defense made them each look bad on the plays you provided. I didn't notice anything obvious. I plan to watch it another 100 times to see if I can find out where it started to go bad.

What a nice SPAM, but no SPAM answer ........

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--If we indeed do run the Vertical Stretch offense, I can see the screen becoming a bigger part of the offense. We will spread teams out more rather than having the D packed in like they were the last two years. Deeper routes and the willingness to throw them should open up space for the screen.

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got to run so no long winded version...lol

That above is 90% about our Screen Pass this season. Its all about getting teams to drop deeper due to our Vertical stretch...something we DID NOT have last season. Screens n Draws called at the right times will have effect now. IF WE EXECUTE the basic Concept of our Offense.

JMHO - if needed I'll get more technical later

On the video several things went wrong. The FB needs to hold that block for an instant longer, he just pushes slightly and takes off. The line needs to hold and then release causing the impression that its going to hold then fold and release to the RB. They also failed to get a hand on the LB which would have given the RB and chance.

I was wonder about this play. all the same play. 1 is what we saw on tv. the other 2 are dif shots of it. but looked to me like every one who was supposed to be blocked was except #54. smith was supposed to let the guy through. lack of coaching maybe? pretty clear lava was not where he should have been.