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#782946 - 05/16/13 10:25 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: eotab]
no_logo_required Offline

Legend

Registered: 10/11/06
Posts: 17850
Quote:

Quote:

the worry about the spinal stenosis (you pay that much money, then it is a worry and I think why he dropped to Pitt) was the reason he fell.




No Logo...you really think that. Not that for the fact of a 245 Speed Edge rusher running a 4.9 as a flag that maybe he isn't as fast (for the NFL) as he looks on tape against (slower college players?) I mean Suggs dropped to a lot of teams with his slow run (not as slow as Jones) but he gained like 15 lbs in a month for the Combine.

I think personnel departments went back to their tapes n saw signs that Jones will not succeed like they thought he did.

Also thank you for recognizing his lack of size. Many here are saying Mingo skinny this n Mingo skinny that. While there is like 5-7 lbs between the two.






His speed certainly played a factor as well. I don't think we should discount his spinal stenosis is all when it has shortened many NFL players careers (most recently Marcus McNeil).

There were some on here (notably DJ) who didn't like his tape. I hope that they are correct and he busts in the NFL though I thought he was a very good college player with a good chance to continue that success at the next level.
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#782947 - 05/16/13 10:36 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: no_logo_required]
clevesteve Offline

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Posts: 13381
Loc: Pflugerville, TX

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#782948 - 05/16/13 10:41 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: no_logo_required]
predator16 Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 03/14/13
Posts: 1448
Quote:

There were some on here (notably DJ) who didn't like his tape. I hope that they are correct and he busts in the NFL though I thought he was a very good college player with a good chance to continue that success at the next level.




I am one who has combed over his tape many times. I didn't like what I saw. That said I think if he becomes a bust it's because of his poor work ethic and attitude. Skill wise I think he could be at best a nice complimentary rusher. Think of a Sheard that shys from blockers. They have a very similar rush and body style to me.

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#782949 - 05/16/13 10:43 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: clevesteve]
texaslostdawg Offline

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Registered: 03/02/13
Posts: 2864
Never let stats get the way of a good argument.
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A smart person knows what to say.

A wise person knows whether or not to say it.

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#782950 - 05/16/13 11:04 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: clevesteve]
Kingcob Offline

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Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 2278
He probably meant Inoperable Neck Trauma

(i'm aware he was misdiagnosed )

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#782951 - 05/16/13 11:26 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: clevesteve]
no_logo_required Offline

Legend

Registered: 10/11/06
Posts: 17850
Quote:

But he doesn't have spinal stenosis! It was a misdiagnosis!

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/blog/...ing-to-a-report

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000...-medical-report




or was he? he likely went to many doctors and found one that cleared him. yes, a good doctor, but there can be differing opinions on this kind of stuff. it even mentions that Bowers had the same thing come out before his draft and he slid anyway in that cbssports article.

I have learned not to trust much news in the immediate lead-up to the draft.

Quote:


While the positive report is a good sign for Jones, it's important to keep a few things in perspective. NFL teams who are interested in possibly drafting the 2012 SEC sacks leader will perform their own due diligence on his injury background. Brigham is considered one of the top doctors in his field so teams will certainly keep the report in mind, but at the end of the day, NFL decision-makers will trust their doctors and training staff on whether or not Jones' durability will hurt his pro potential.

Similar “positive” reports surfaced before the 2011 NFL Draft regarding the questionable health of DaQuan Bower's knee. However, NFL teams remained skeptical due to their own medical reports, and the Clemson defensive end was taken off some draft boards completely. Bowers, who was once considered a candidate to be the No. 1 overall pick, ended up falling to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in the second round as the 51st pick overall.


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#782952 - 05/16/13 11:42 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: no_logo_required]
YTownBrownsFan Offline

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Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 45809
Loc: YTown, Ohio
I had a re-read of an MRI on my back.

The original MRI reading said that my back was absolutely normal. The 2nd found significant issues. The 3rd (yeah, we had it read a 3rd time ..... kind of a tie breaker) found significant issues.

This was read at the Cleveland Clinic ..... so the doctors involved were pretty darn good doctors. However, a 2 doctors can look at an MRI and see completely different things. It really is rather scary.(By the way, a surgeon I spoke to actually saw something entirely different from the other 3)
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#782953 - 05/16/13 12:42 PM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: predator16]
CLEBrowns216 Offline

Rookie

Registered: 05/05/13
Posts: 47
Quote:

Quote:

There were some on here (notably DJ) who didn't like his tape. I hope that they are correct and he busts in the NFL though I thought he was a very good college player with a good chance to continue that success at the next level.




I am one who has combed over his tape many times. I didn't like what I saw. That said I think if he becomes a bust it's because of his poor work ethic and attitude. Skill wise I think he could be at best a nice complimentary rusher. Think of a Sheard that shys from blockers. They have a very similar rush and body style to me.




Yes! I have heard Jarvis' work ethic is not good.

I think one of the biggest reasons that the FO liked Mingo so much is his work ethic and commitment to get better. This is the first thing that people who have been around him/coached him in the past say. And I think that this is part of the reason that the Browns felt so comfortable taking someone who didnt quite have the production numbers last year (not saying that his skill set itself didnt warrant a top 10 pick). People who have this work ethic and desire to get better rarely turn out to be busts, especially when that person is as athletically gifted as Mingo is.

Also a VERY underrated attribute of a good pass rusher is relentlessness. Mingo is by the far most relentless pass rusher in this draft and may arguably be the most relentless player overall. A relentless effort and motor to get to the QB is one of the most important attributes of a pass rusher. O lineman get tired throughout a game. I can already tell that Mingo will do a lot of damage late in games because he is so relentless and has such a high motor.

Cant wait.


Edited by CLEBrowns216 (05/16/13 12:45 PM)

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#782954 - 05/16/13 01:08 PM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: CLEBrowns216]
predator16 Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 03/14/13
Posts: 1448
Quote:


Also a VERY underrated attribute of a good pass rusher is relentlessness. Mingo is by the far most relentless pass rusher in this draft and may arguably be the most relentless player overall. A relentless effort and motor to get to the QB is one of the most important attributes of a pass rusher. O lineman get tired throughout a game. I can already tell that Mingo will do a lot of damage late in games because he is so relentless and has such a high motor.

Cant wait.




If I had to put together my perfect pass rusher with three attributes of any guy in the NFL.
Motor = Jared Allen Other than Von Miller I've never seen a more intense pass rusher.
Athleticism = JPP He is pound for pound the strongest most athletic pass rusher on the field. He will only continue to develop.
Instincts = JJ Watt He was asked to defend passing lanes, rush the passer and contain the QB simultaneously at LSU. With technique he will dominate.

To me Mingo has all three of these traits just as much as the men listed. He has the blue chip traits that are uncoachable. I think he could be the next truly great pass rusher in the NFL.

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#782955 - 05/16/13 01:14 PM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: mac]
Versatile Dog Offline

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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 43096
mac, a lot of hot air that tells us nothing that we did not already know.

Once again, I ask you to provide a link that says that our current FO made the trade to Pittsburgh because they didn't trust the scouting reports.

You can play around w/the words "myth" and "rumor" all you want. You immediately jumped on the FO and said it was BS that they were blaming the scouting staff.

One more time.........show us proof.

You can't. Because there isn't any. In fact, they vehemently denied that "myth."

Once again, you twist things due to your own hateful opinion of the FO and refuse to deal w/facts. You are shameless.

And to top it off.......the crazy dude says: Good reply, mac.

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#782956 - 05/17/13 09:10 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: Versatile Dog]
mac Offline

Legend

Registered: 12/01/06
Posts: 10229
Loc: OHIO
vers...it looks like I was right...you consider a rumor or myth to be a flat out untruth...which they are not. Not identifying a source does not mean what is written, is not true.

...vers...you can jump up and down...scream and demand...act like a child , all you want...just because you don't agree with an answer.

Maybe that tactic worked for you on the other board and maybe it would work on some members of this board...but you have no authority to demand anything from me...and I find it absolutely hilarious that you would try that tactic on this board..

The answers you demand are below...try again.

Quote:

vers...you seem to be defining a "myth" and "rumor" as a flat out lie or untruth...which is not the definition of either word.

One definition of myth is...a half-truth...

You refer to "myth" as a "RUMOR" ...and again, you seem to imply that a rumor is a total untruth...but that is not the definition of the word.

rumor-
1: talk or opinion widely disseminated with no discernible source
2: a statement or report current without known authority for its truth


My take on the use of the word "myth" by Terry Pluto...the source didn't want his/her name associated with comment OR Pluto didn't know the source of this comment...
...."the new front office was using reports from the scouts of the Mike Holmgren/Tom Heckert regime -- and didn't trust the reports."

I did not consider the comment as being false...you seem to believe it was 100% false.

The first time I read the comment was in Pluto's article. Pluto had information and sources that he was not willing to identify, but he still felt it was necessary to print the comment I quoted above, without naming sources.

The part about the "top operative" denying the Pluto's report...we don't know who the "top operative" is, do we?
....I thought the source might be someone from the scouting department, since the comment was about the scouting reports.
....you seem to believe the "top operative" was Banner, Lombardi or Farmer. If it was one of these 3, why not allow Pluto to use your name as the source, knocking down the rumor?

Bottom line, there is room for readers to come to different conclusions...different opinions...concerning the anonymous comments in Pluto's article that have to do with scouting reports and top operatives. You are entitled to your opinion...BUT, so am I.

If you can bring facts to the discussion that identify the sources in question, I have no problem admitting I'm wrong. But, if you simply have a differing opinion of Pluto's story...so be it.


Terry Pluto's Talkin' ... about the Browns' draft rationale,

About the lower draft moves ...

May 04, 2013

1. One of the myths surrounding the trade of a fourth-rounder to Pittsburgh (for a third-rounder in 2014) and fifth-rounder to the Colts (for a fourth-rounder in 2014) is that the new front office was using reports from the scouts of the Mike Holmgren/Tom Heckert regime -- and didn't trust the reports. One top operative became angry when I mentioned that, telling me: "We had all the information we needed. We did our homework. The scouts were not an issue when we came to the trades. We just didn't like the players available."

2. A little history lesson. Joe Banner knew he was the team's CEO from training camp. General Manager Mike Lombardi knew he'd be coming to the Browns during the season. These guys had more time to prepare for the 2013 draft than former GMs Phil Savage (hired in 2005) or Heckert (2010) when they had their first Cleveland drafts. Both joined the team after the season.

3. The Browns had a player in the upper level of the fourth round -- not sure who it was -- that they considered a starter. Once that player was picked, they were open to trading the 2013 pick for a better one in 2014. The Steelers made the deal to take Syracuse safety Shamarko Thomas. The Browns considered Thomas to be a T.J. Ward hard-hitting strong safety, and that's not what they needed. They also were a bit worried because he has a history of concussions.

4. In the fifth round, they saw no one as a starter -- and believed it simply made sense to add two more picks for the 2014 draft -- giving them six in the first four rounds.

5. Most teams had a third- or fourth-round grade on safety Jamoris Slaughter, picked in the sixth. The reason he dropped was the Achilles injury in Notre Dame's third game of the season. At the very least, they consider him a very good special teams player with the potential to be more.

6. Seventh-rounder Garrett Gilkey has added 70 pounds since enrolling at Division II power Chadron State and at 320, is a good developmental player for the offensive line. Guys like this sometimes become useful guards in the NFL.

7. Like most teams, the Browns view the seventh round as a place to take a gamble, which is why they also picked defensive lineman Armonty Bryant. They know he sold marijuana to an undercover policeman while at East Central (Okla.) University, resulting in a three-game suspension. They say they have checked him out and he's worth the minimal risk because they think he has NFL physical skills as a 263-pound pass rusher.

web page





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#782957 - 05/17/13 09:20 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: mac]
Versatile Dog Offline

Legend

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 43096
Actually, it looks like you can't admit you were wrong. You can't provide a link because there isn't one. The FO never said any such thing.

You have been exposed once again.

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#782958 - 05/17/13 10:08 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: mac]
eotab Offline

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Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 15933
Loc: L.I., NY
Mac...not to get involved in this Tit for Tat exchange but come on dawg...you actually just proved Vers' case not yours!

In that May 4th article you got points 1. 2. 3. explaining Vers' point of view.
1. There was a rumor n when confronted the FO didn't just deny it but got PO'd at the insinuation.
2. This was sort of substantiated by the fact that the FO unlike many others before had months to prepare so that it fit the claim of the FO not the RUMOR.
3. Pretty much explains the thought process behind the Trades...not anything close to - Uh Uh what do we do now PUNT. It was the fact they felt they were looking at a bunch of 6th n 7th rounders...Lets wait for the 6th n 7th round to deal with ST/Diamond in the rough guys. Lets get a value pick in 2014 instead bonus points is that its suppose to be a much stronger draft class.

All you got is the use of the word "MYTH" instead of "RUMOR" where possibly by Websters definitions put some validity in the rumor as a part truth when the word Myth was used in the article. But the contents used by the author oooozed RUMOR n just the miss use of a word...Bozo's never get the literal meaning wrong...lol

Don't continue...if you wish to not lose face at least BUNT n state Its a difference of opinion. But you continue to shoot for FACT which it is far from fact.

Ignorance as the catalyst for the Trade...Sorry I think not.

Good return in the Trade...I think so. Opinion??? ehhh pretty obvious...lets at least wait to see what we did with those picks as opposed to getting guys we really didn't want in 2013. Sort of a win without seeing who we pick...but at least see what we get in exchange for "NOTHING".

JMHO true but you actually convinced me of it being correct judgement on what happened not prove you point.
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#782959 - 05/17/13 10:10 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: mac]
jacksondawg Offline

All Pro

Registered: 03/17/13
Posts: 576
+1

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#782960 - 05/17/13 10:51 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: Versatile Dog]
mac Offline

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Registered: 12/01/06
Posts: 10229
Loc: OHIO
vers...something I find remarkable was Banner's explanation for making the trade with the Steelers...saying he prefers to trade within the division.

Many, many Browns fans and draft analysts thought Banner's comment was "odd" to say the least and contrary to the guidelines most NFL franchises follow...preferring "not to help" teams in the division.

Banner helped the Steelers get the guy (SS Shamarko Thomas) who is expected to eventually replace Troy Polamalu. Browns fans might get the chance to feel the logic of Banner's reasoning, twice a year for the next 10 yrs or so.

What makes Banner's move to help the Steelers even more bizarre, Banner claims he had several offers from other teams for our 4th round pick and he chose to make the deal with the Steelers.

Quote:

Banner revealed that the Browns had multiple offers for their fourth-round pick that were similar to the deal they made with the Steelers.



web page




When the fans and media began to question Banner's willingness to help the Steelers, he attempted to explain it away by pointing the Eagles traded McNabb to the Redskins, within the division.

Problem is, McNabb was at the end of his career...not a promising rookie with his career ahead of him.

My take on the trade...Banner and Lombardi had no plan in place once the guy they had on our draft board got scooped up by the Giants who traded up ahead of us, out maneuvering Banner for the pick.

...I think back at all the criticism Heckert got when he would trade up a few spots to get the guy he wanted. Fans thought Heckert was just wasting our draft picks for nothing.

...but, this could be a great example of why Heckert moved to trade up in some of those situations...he felt or had information that a team was looking to jump ahead of the Browns, to take the guy we were targeting.

IMO, obviously Banner and Lombardi didn't have a clue that the Giants could be targeting the guy on our draft board...stood pat, not attempting to move up...and the Giants took advantage of Banner and Lombardi inexperience.

Once the Giants took the guy Banner was targeting for our 4th round pick..Banner and Lombardi had no plan B for that pick.

Anyone believing there was no talent worthy of our 4th round pick, once the Giants took our front office was targeting...that is pure bunk.

The Browns had a need for a S...matter of fact they took a SS in the 6th round...and what did the Steelers do with the "favor" Banner gave them...they took a versatile SS out of Syracuse..a guy capable of playing SS or FS.

So the Browns had a need for a Safety in the 6th round, but had no need for higher rated Safety in the 4th round ?

The Browns also had a need for a OLine guy, choosing to pick one in the 7th round OT who is projected to be a OG...

...BUT, there was a versatile OLineman available in the 4th round, when Banner decided to help the Steelers find the potential replacement for Try Polamalu...he happened to be listed as the #1 Center in this draft but he also played OG and OT prior to playing Center his senior year...that guy was Barrett Jones out of Alabama...chosen two picks after Banner traded away our 4th round pick, helping the Steelers.

Banner likes to present himself as being the smartest guy in the room, but I'm not buying the BS he is attempting to sell. Banner and Lombardi were ill prepared and badly outmaneuvered in this draft and if they don't get their "stuff" together, the chances of them finishing off the 5 year rebuilding plan is in trouble.

Banner believes he has time...2 or 3 more years...to produce. He wants everyone to believe the Browns can afford to give up picks in the draft with the notion that he has the ability to make up for "a bad draft" by having the potential for a good draft, next year.

The problem with the "wait for next year" approach Banner is following...all the other teams in the AFC North are getting better and better with each draft.

Banner is a silver tongued devil, capable of spinning his way out every tough question. But Browns fans already know that about Banner...and his excuses for trading with the Steelers and not being prepared for alternative draft situations...I'm not buying it.

One of the most important keys to building a playoff caliber team is the ability of the front office to secure better talent than the other teams in our division.

This could have been a pivotal draft in the AFC North, with the Steelers growing older, the Ravens losing several players to free agency and retirement. It was an opportunity for the Browns to make up ground on the Steelers and Ravens...and the Browns front office failed to take advantage of the situation in our division...and actually helped the Steelers get better.

If this front office doesn't do a better job securing superior talent via the draft, the chances of producing a playoff caliber team are slim.

jmho...mac


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#782961 - 05/17/13 10:58 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: mac]
CapCity Dawg Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 4562
Loc: Powell, OH
Quote:

Quote:

Banner revealed that the Browns had multiple offers for their fourth-round pick that were similar to the deal they made with the Steelers.



web page







similar != better
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#782962 - 05/17/13 10:58 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: mac]
jacksondawg Offline

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Registered: 03/17/13
Posts: 576
To add fuel to your fire why didnt joe banner bid against baltimore for dumerville using are superior cash position they were umprepared or stupid by any account.

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#782963 - 05/17/13 11:10 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: mac]
MemphisBrownie Offline

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Registered: 03/01/13
Posts: 10412
Loc: Cleveland
I actually think this is a pretty logical response. Not sure where the information is coming from that it was the Giants' selection that prompted the Browns to make the trade, but it is somewhat conceivable to think that whomever the Browns wanted in the 4th was no longer available, thus the reason for the deal. I didn't know/read an article saying there were multiple suitors for the 4th round pick offering a similar package until I read what you just provided. This makes the deal with the Steelers more mind boggling for me considering I never wanted to make any trade within the division. I don't like the move even more now. But it could work out in the end...it's obviously to early to tell with us not even able to see any reward until well after we pick next year.

I agree on the Heckert stuff too, mac. I didn't particularly like reading poster comments hating on giving up draft picks because Heckert wanted to get the guy HE wanted. I actually liked the approach. He just needed to be right on those players, and I think he was on most of the time. Same thing when people worried about Heckert drafting someone saying it was too early (going simply off of mock drafts from draft "analysts"). Again, more of the picks worked out that didn't. The "don't get cute" philosophy works.

That same philosophy could potentially work for this regime too. How many people thought it was a "reach" for Mingo at 6? .....tons of people, both fans of this board, and again, those draft "analysts". The regime liked him, didn't want to trade down, and got they guy THEY wanted. I got no problem with that.


Edited by MemphisBrownie (05/17/13 11:14 AM)
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#782964 - 05/17/13 11:12 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: jacksondawg]
YTownBrownsFan Offline

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Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 45809
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Maybe because we already had Sheard, had signed Groves and Kruger, and had targeted Mingo in the (then) upcoming draft. We cannot sign every player.
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#782965 - 05/17/13 11:13 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: jacksondawg]
MemphisBrownie Offline

Legend

Registered: 03/01/13
Posts: 10412
Loc: Cleveland
Quote:

To add fuel to your fire why didnt joe banner bid against baltimore for dumerville using are superior cash position they were umprepared or stupid by any account.




Because no one saw the Dumerville fiasco coming and they already signed a enormous contract for Kruger at OLB. Plus they had Sheard who they apparently like, and had signed Quentin Groves for depth.

Sorry, but the hindsight argument.... "Why didn't they sign this guy, or that guy" doesn't really work.
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#782966 - 05/17/13 11:39 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
jacksondawg Offline

All Pro

Registered: 03/17/13
Posts: 576
how is this not unprepared ?

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#782967 - 05/17/13 11:42 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: jacksondawg]
MemphisBrownie Offline

Legend

Registered: 03/01/13
Posts: 10412
Loc: Cleveland
Quote:

how is this not unprepared ?




How can any team be "prepared" for an agent screwing up paperwork?

You're fishing and coming up with nothing but a dirty boot.


Edited by MemphisBrownie (05/17/13 11:43 AM)
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#782968 - 05/17/13 11:45 AM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: MemphisBrownie]
jacksondawg Offline

All Pro

Registered: 03/17/13
Posts: 576
how is this not unprepared ?
this does not excuse him from driving up dumervilles price.
buy the way lets keep this debate friendly I am basically a nice guy

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#782969 - 05/17/13 12:07 PM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: jacksondawg]
YTownBrownsFan Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 45809
Loc: YTown, Ohio
You don't go after players simply to drive up their price for another team.

What happens if you "win" the bidding, yet don't really have room for the player? Do you then rescind the offer? How long would that kind of tactic take to get around the players in the NFL? Who would trust you if you made an offer?

I don't like the fact that the Ravens got Dumervil, but we have to beat the teams we play, and they are going to have good players. The Ravens essentially lucked into Dumervil. I would rather have a plan that rely on hope that other teams might screw up and drop a player into our lap.

Some people blasted the front office for not signing Rolando McClain. How come he retired? Why didn't the Ravens see that coming?

The Ravens took advantage of the mistake by Dumervil's agent, and they made a mistake in signing McClain. Concerning Dumervil, they had an opportunity because they had been decimated in free agency and by old age. They got damn lucky that Dumervil became available. If he hadn't, then who knows what player might have been playing at OLB for them next year?

One other thing to consider ...... would Dumervil even have wanted to come here to fight for a job? He would have had to compete with the likes of Sheard, and Kruger, and Groves, and maybe even Mingo. Would that have been as appealing a prospect as going to a team with no one at all standing in his way?

One other thing to remember ...... Dumervil insisted on certain injury language in his contract that allows him to collect his money even if he is hurt and the Ravens are forced to cut him. That kind of struck me as "me first".

Anyway, the Ravens did get one heck of a player in Dumervil. They lucked into him. The Browns worked their plan. We'll see how it works out this coming year and beyond.
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#782970 - 05/17/13 12:10 PM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
jacksondawg Offline

All Pro

Registered: 03/17/13
Posts: 576
sorry dont agree
eg dumervill e + millner =mingo
I like my team better

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#782971 - 05/17/13 12:27 PM Re: Steelers and Colts Trade [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
jacksondawg Offline

All Pro

Registered: 03/17/13
Posts: 576
buy the way I was wrong about mcclain+1 for you

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