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I felt like a topic needed to be started for a very thought provoking issue I don't think many on here have considered as of yet. I think a lot of people on here see how much we've invested in the defense and are expecting results next year. I did this thread to discuss why that WON'T be happening and I hope people can take a step back and actually rationalize/think before you post quick twitch nonsense . Realize I am no way saying what we have done is wrong, but I think many are expecting dominance next year that will actually come down the road.
First off our defense has been built to terrorize QB's. A brilliant move! This is a passing league. A pass rush is the finest weapon you can have for a playoff contending team. There also lies the problem. We have built a defense that can destroy QB's while still having an offense that may or may not be able to outscore the opponent. If an offense doesn't score points teams will not be forced to pass the ball.
Our run D will be pretty terrible. I will promise you that. Every player brought in this year is lacking in run support. Does that not seem odd? Kruger, Mingo, Bryant even McFadden all are purely built to stop the pass. People will run all over us this year and thats ok? Yeah thats ok. If you believe in the plan at hand.
My point is I feel we are on the brink of a very poor season. Not because of lack of talent. I feel our D could be top 5 given certain circumstances. However until we have a proven offense that forces opposing QBs to be in catch up mode and susceptible to a great pass rush this D and team in general will suffer in the win column.
This also brings up another great point. One would think based on these issues that perhaps this is the plan by the new FO. I have to say it is the plan I have wanted for years. Build the defense that can rack up QB pressures when you pull ahead on the scoreboard. That is what has been meant all these years by "defense wins championships"!
We all know Lombardi despises Weeden. There's plenty of proof on video. Yet he does nothing about it? That tells me this season is not the focus. I don't really know how to feel about that but I try to stay positive. We will let Brandon play out. He will more than likely fail(we'd all love him not to but that's not my point) and we will be left with another high pick. We will go into next year probably with a hole or two we didn't expect. Maybe Gordon and Little don't progress. Who knows! Some holes we still have now like FS , QB and lesser needs like OG, TE may be answered or become glaring. Who knows!
Sure the defense might not work until you find the QB. Big deal! We've lost for over a decade we'll live. But if we tank this season because the defense is built to be accompanied by a great pass O I won't be upset. Why? Because we'll be in a position to hand pick a QB. Maybe it won't work out. Maybe it will. I'm just saying it's sure looking like the plan. Especially given the 2 picks we stockpiles for the 2014 draft. Thoughts?
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I see what you're saying, but I disagree on the run D and predict a 500 season or better this year.
First, we do have some talent on the team on Offense. Second, Norv and Chud do NOT equal Shurmur. I think they will get the most out of the talent we have, rather that will translate to wins is yet to be seen.
On the Defensive side of the ball, we still have a pretty good run D. I'm not saying we'll give up less than 100 yards per game, but I don't think we'll fall apart on run D either. Based on what I think we have at this point I'd put our D at no less than the middle of the pack in the NFL and fighting for first in the division this year.
I don't know that we'll make the playoffs (or should say I doubt it) but I don't think we'll end up in the basement this year. I think the Steelers are headed to the basement and we'll get to battle Cinci for second. Baltimore will find a way to get into the playoffs. JMHO
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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I think we'll be better against the run then most think. Quote:
We all know Lombardi despises Weeden.
For this draft, I don't think Lombardi had much say. He came in late and I think Norv, Chud & even Banner decided to stick with what the scouts had already put together. I think Horton & Chud went thru the players and looked at what they thought were the best fit for the Team. IMO there's not really any finger prints of TL on this draft. I think they told him to keep it zipped on any QB's he thought would be a good value. You know he wanted Geno or even Barkley.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180
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Legend
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Our defense is gonna be on fire this year.... blitz blitz blitz.. scheme scheme scheme... I can't wait..
Offensively, our guys need to execute and fight harder than the man in lining up in front of them...
I think Weeden will show some good things this year... Hopefully he's running from more shotgun sets..
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Quote:
I think we'll be better against the run then most think.
I see what your saying about the QB's. It is very possible they decided to ride it out. My question to you is...why do you think we'll be better against the run? Arizona had a very explosive defense but they weren't exactly stout against the run. 26th I think I saw in another thread? Because they couldn't score enough points to keep the opposing QB slinging. What addition makes you think we'll be better? From what I've seen every prospect or FA's weakness, that will actually see the field, is run defense. Again very curious on your stand of this. It seems to be general consensus.
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I disagree about what defense wins chapionships means.
Before a defense can be considered a good defense it MUST stop the runs first. The passing game is getting over hyped. Why? Because the QB is the most important position on a team. That does not mean the run game has no value.
The corner stone of all teams is to run the ball and stop the run. When an offense can run the ball it can force their will on a defense. Being able to run the ball makes a defense walk a safety in the box and opens up the passing game for the QB and the passing game. I am not saying it is still 3 yards and a cloud of dust but if a team cannot run the ball it severly limits what they can do offensively.
For a defense to be effective they have to stop the run first. Put the other team in 2nd and 3rd and long. Make the offense throw against 2 deep safeties. When a defesnse can pressure the QB without blitzing it will be a long day for the QB. How do you do that, Stop the run. Blitz on 2nd down and get a sack. Then sit back and let your front 5 get after the QB with a full secondary to throw against.
This game is still a very simple run the ball and stop the run. That is what playoff teams do first and foremost. Consider the 2 teams in the Super Bowl. Alabama in college.
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Quote:
I disagree about what defense wins chapionships means.
Before a defense can be considered a good defense it MUST stop the runs first. The passing game is getting over hyped. Why? Because the QB is the most important position on a team. That does not mean the run game has no value.
The corner stone of all teams is to run the ball and stop the run. When an offense can run the ball it can force their will on a defense. Being able to run the ball makes a defense walk a safety in the box and opens up the passing game for the QB and the passing game. I am not saying it is still 3 yards and a cloud of dust but if a team cannot run the ball it severly limits what they can do offensively.
For a defense to be effective they have to stop the run first. Put the other team in 2nd and 3rd and long. Make the offense throw against 2 deep safeties. When a defesnse can pressure the QB without blitzing it will be a long day for the QB. How do you do that, Stop the run. Blitz on 2nd down and get a sack. Then sit back and let your front 5 get after the QB with a full secondary to throw against.
This game is still a very simple run the ball and stop the run. That is what playoff teams do first and foremost. Consider the 2 teams in the Super Bowl. Alabama in college.
Agree 100 percent/ Look at Green Bay this past year. They have the best passer in the league but no ability to run the football or stop the run. They made the playoffs but it was ungly against the San Fran. This regime is selling us a line of crap. They have no idea what they are doing.
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Horton is a disciple of Dick LeBeau. Historically, Lebeau's defenses have been good against the run. To bear that out, Horton's ARZ run defense was ranked no. 12 in 2011 and no. 5 in 2012 (source NFL regular season stats) . It would be simplistic to think the Browns will morph into that type of run defense in one season but improvement is not out of the question.
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I think our run defense will be pretty good. When Taylor played, the run defense was better. When Ward plays the run defense is better, and I believe that with Bryant, the run defense will be better. I see this defense being built like the Steelers. They have always stopped the run. IMO if a team is going to run on us, I don't think the middle is going to be a good choice for them. Taylor, Rubin and Bryant are going to be a load, I see oposing guards having fits with them. This scheme is truly different than the 3-4 that has been here in the past. The DL will be attacking and penetrating, not just holding space. This comment, Quote:
We will let Brandon play out. He will more than likely fail(we'd all love him not to but that's not my point) and we will be left with another high pick. We will go into next year probably with a hole or two we didn't expect. Maybe Gordon and Little don't progress. Who knows! Some holes we still have now like FS , QB and lesser needs like OG, TE may be answered or become glaring. Who knows!
This sounds more like you hoping he fails instead of "thinking" he will. When you say Lombardi did nothing,you fail to see Campbell as a fail safe. Campbell is capable of winning games, even though many around here act as if he can't. Also, I would love to see who you thought he would bring in to replace him. Geno Smith? GMAB. I don't think you can answer this question honestly, without stating that you don't like Weeden. The guy was a rookie, I can't believe how many people discount that .
Defenses are not built to be complimented by offenses. They are built to stop offenses.
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My philosophy is to hoard $33.4M in cap space! MWAHAHAHA! 
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We've built a defense that can apply pressure and come up with sacks on 3rd down to get us off the field, when we do that it gives the offense more chances to score. Our defensive backs are a weakness but a strong pass rush should only help make up for that. Kruger, Mingo, Sheard all rushing the passer on a regular basis sounds pretty good to me. I could see us turning into a top 10 defense easily.
I do agree though that we're in for a bad season. We did absolutely nothing to upgrade our running game. Our offensive guards are still bad, we still have unproven receivers and tight ends. The coaching and offensive coordinator change should only help, but I have absolutely no faith in Weeden to get the job done.
The trades we made yesterday in the draft were smart. If we have to move around next year to draft a new Quarterback we'll now have the ammo to do it.
"You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave"
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Tom Coughlin of the Giants once said, to win in the NFL you need an elite QB, and then you need guys to chase the other teams elite QB. I agree with him. It use to be, run the ball and stop the run and you won. But the rules have been changed to benefit teams that pass the ball 50 times a game.
I think the reason they drafted and signed pass rushers and not a corner, is because the way the league is now if the Corner can cover for just few seconds that's good enough, because the line is getting so much pressure.
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I agree. We have been loyal to pretty much a not agressive enough gameplan and stayed with it despite stringing losses together. I hope this year we attack, blitz, and score TD's. We should be able to cause more chaos and carnage on D. Hope we create turnovers on D. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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I like most of your post.. I don't agree with all of it, but you seem to have some sound reasoning. Then you wrote this: Quote:
We all know Lombardi despises Weeden. There's plenty of proof on video. Yet he does nothing about it?
Lombardi was a Media weenie when he said all that stuff. I don't think he meant it, what he was doing is stirring the pot that's what media types do. So the proof you speak of is really not proof at all. As for doing something about it, first you have to prove to me he hates Weeden, which of course you can't really do. Then you have to tell me what it is you wanted him to do? Complaining just to complain is counterproductive and solves nothing and really doesn't add to the conversation.
I mean, was there a QB in this draft you felt would fit any better? Who was it? When would you have wanted Lombardi to take him? Or was there a FA you wanted? And last but not least, how much power do you really believe Lombardi has?
I was just wondering.
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Damanshot
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Quote:
The trades we made yesterday in the draft were smart. If we have to move around next year to draft a new Quarterback we'll now have the ammo to do it.
How do you see that playing out, Mr K? Round 3 or 4 picks won't be involved in a tradeup for an elite QB prospect. Only 1st and 2nd rounders will cut it...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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We're being built to stop the pass in a pass happy league. Unfortunately like you said, we need an offense that can put pressure on opposing teams. Our season is determined by QB play. Look how the Giants have won their Super Bowls. Elite QB play and pressuring the hell out of QBs.
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
I disagree about what defense wins chapionships means.
Before a defense can be considered a good defense it MUST stop the runs first. The passing game is getting over hyped. Why? Because the QB is the most important position on a team. That does not mean the run game has no value.
The corner stone of all teams is to run the ball and stop the run. When an offense can run the ball it can force their will on a defense. Being able to run the ball makes a defense walk a safety in the box and opens up the passing game for the QB and the passing game. I am not saying it is still 3 yards and a cloud of dust but if a team cannot run the ball it severly limits what they can do offensively.
For a defense to be effective they have to stop the run first. Put the other team in 2nd and 3rd and long. Make the offense throw against 2 deep safeties. When a defesnse can pressure the QB without blitzing it will be a long day for the QB. How do you do that, Stop the run. Blitz on 2nd down and get a sack. Then sit back and let your front 5 get after the QB with a full secondary to throw against.
This game is still a very simple run the ball and stop the run. That is what playoff teams do first and foremost. Consider the 2 teams in the Super Bowl. Alabama in college.
Agree 100 percent/ Look at Green Bay this past year. They have the best passer in the league but no ability to run the football or stop the run. They made the playoffs but it was ungly against the San Fran. This regime is selling us a line of crap. They have no idea what they are doing.
To be fair, Green Bay wasnt exactly stellar defending Kaep period. He ripped them to shreds with his legs and arm.
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Quote:
Quote:
The trades we made yesterday in the draft were smart. If we have to move around next year to draft a new Quarterback we'll now have the ammo to do it.
How do you see that playing out, Mr K? Round 3 or 4 picks won't be involved in a tradeup for an elite QB prospect. Only 1st and 2nd rounders will cut it...
It can work out any numner of ways. Be a little creative and figure out how it could be done, because it could.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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...figure out how it could be done, because it could.
The way I see it playing out, is that we will only have our round 3 and up picks left after trading 2 firsts and perhaps 2 seconds to make a significant move up to #1 or #2...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Quote:
Horton is a disciple of Dick LeBeau. Historically, Lebeau's defenses have been good against the run. To bear that out, Horton's ARZ run defense was ranked no. 12 in 2011 and no. 5 in 2012 (source NFL regular season stats) . It would be simplistic to think the Browns will morph into that type of run defense in one season but improvement is not out of the question.
NFL.com
Arizona was ranked 5th to LAST not 5th.
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I disagree about what defense wins chapionships means.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Which is ok. I think the majority of the top run defense are where they are because their offenses score enough to be ahead in games thus keep the rushing attempts down. Sure there will be exemptions and you may find them but when I check the sources it backs it up.
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This sounds more like you hoping he fails instead of "thinking" he will. When you say Lombardi did nothing,you fail to see Campbell as a fail safe. Campbell is capable of winning games, even though many around here act as if he can't. Also, I would love to see who you thought he would bring in to replace him. Geno Smith? GMAB. I don't think you can answer this question honestly, without stating that you don't like Weeden. The guy was a rookie, I can't believe how many people discount that .
I actually like Campbell much more than Weeden which is saying something because I think Weeden has the arm talent. It's between the ears that I don't like. But you have yet to comprehend my point. Lombardi is on record as despising Weeden as a prospect. Yet he brings in what is considered a journeyman in his first year? Im not saying I wanted anything else. I am saying I am amazed he stood pat with a guy he personally knows will fail(again not saying he will). If he thinks so little of him why leave him at the helm? Sounds like a planned disaster to me.
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Quote:
Lombardi was a Media weenie when he said all that stuff. I don't think he meant it, what he was doing is stirring the pot that's what media types do. So the proof you speak of is really not proof at all. As for doing something about it, first you have to prove to me he hates Weeden, which of course you can't really do. Then you have to tell me what it is you wanted him to do? Complaining just to complain is counterproductive and solves nothing and really doesn't add to the conversation.
Again I did not start this from a standpoint of he didn't get the guy I wanted. I wanted no one. I wanted us to go in with Weeden and not even because he is the chosen one but because I think this season is a wash. Therefore I am not complaining. I think people assume you are either complaining or praising. I am doing neither. I am just taking a reasonable look at things with no one sided opinion as a whole and trying to justify the FO's moves.
Also what you said about Lombardi I would have to respectfully disagree. Sure he could have been made to fuel a hateful Weeden agenda. But then I could stand in front of you and say one thing and in my head know I'm lying. In this world you can only go off of proof as you said. The only proof here is he DID say what he said and until otherwise proved to be a lie it is spoken word. Therefore the only thing able to be considered truth. I just dont think you can dismiss what he said as a lie, as so many do, when there is no evidence for the contrary. You have to assume it to be his opinion. Otherwise there can be no real logic behind an argument. Again JMHO
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Quote:
Quote:
...figure out how it could be done, because it could.
The way I see it playing out, is that we will only have our round 3 and up picks left after trading 2 firsts and perhaps 2 seconds to make a significant move up to #1 or #2...
Consider also we may not used the 3rd and 4th as ammo but it allows us to be freer to use earlier picks as well. Say we trade our 2nd and a future 2nd. We still have 2 3rds and 2 4ths. We still have picks to bring in talent unlike Washington did with RG.
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To be fair, Green Bay wasnt exactly stellar defending Kaep period. He ripped them to shreds with his legs and arm.
Exactly. If you look at it the way a coach would. Stopping a QB is not really run defense at all. Unless designed of course. Stopping a QB run is a sub responsibility of pass defense because it starts as a pass play. It will be interesting how the dual threat effects defenses as a whole. The NFL is cyclical. As passrush increases traditional QBs throw less downfield. Meaning passing doesn't gain much more yards than a running game. A dual threat QB causes a passrush to contain(see Mingo at LSU) causing less sacks and turnovers. Meaning as the NFL obsesses with pass rushers perhaps offenses adapt and turn the NFL into dual threat/ read option league and were right back to running designed runs like the 50s because passes become so short. It's all about being ahead of the curve. I think Mingo will help us contain dual QBs. Perhaps the front office considered that?
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Campbell is a capable, proven starter that's been thrown behind some horrid OL's. I'm glad we have him.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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Yeah, I screwed that up. I was certain that I had replotted that page to get the correct stats. Obviously that wasn't the case. 
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Quote:
Yeah, I screwed that up. I was certain that I had replotted that page to get the correct stats. Obviously that wasn't the case.
No problem bud. I'm just glad to have some real discussion on this thread, unlike so many others.
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Quote:
Quote:
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...figure out how it could be done, because it could.
The way I see it playing out, is that we will only have our round 3 and up picks left after trading 2 firsts and perhaps 2 seconds to make a significant move up to #1 or #2...
Consider also we may not used the 3rd and 4th as ammo but it allows us to be freer to use earlier picks as well. Say we trade our 2nd and a future 2nd. We still have 2 3rds and 2 4ths. We still have picks to bring in talent unlike Washington did with RG.
Exactly my point...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Nice post.
Actually what I've been against since Crennel was the paradox in our team philosophy, run first team or in some extent WCO with bend but don't break D would never work and it never did.
I think vertical O and aggressive pass D is a good match, actually the vertical O would also fit the bend but don't break D, which probably should be our first step.
Main point of failure in this plan is clearly the O side, bellow average QB and WRs and this strategy will fail miserably, and that where unfortunately we are heading.
I also have doubts about the ability to move to an aggressive D with the backfield and ILB's we have. I don't like Haden in an island against 1#WRs, and sure don't like the #CB and our FS, a good QB will rip us apart easily.
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Didn't read much of the other responses...so apologies if I'm being redundant.
Run D: This was a goal of Heckert - Taylor n Sheard are both here n pretty successful in the Run of course we are not quite sure of the role either plays in this new Attack D.
DQ voted as a top 100 player by his peers.
JMJ first LB drafted by Heckert. Hughes very good against the run.
Ward excellent against the Run.
I thought Kruger is very good against the run...it was his Pass Rush last season that was the surprise.
As for Bryant n others who have a "Pass Rush" reputation due to their aptitude for Penetrating the LOS. In a discipline Read n React Defense this actually is a Negative n shows lack of discipline for 2 gap responsibility. But our New Defense which we all have to experience before knowing with certainty. I believe will take advantage of that penetration in the run game as well as the passing game. Our Run D improved but it did lack that Tackle for loss that puts teams in a hole - bend but not break put us in numerous 3rd n short situations. Limiting our 3 n outs.
I got to see more of how this Attack defense works but educated football guess is all gaps will be accounted for just a lot of it behind the LOS n not on our heels reacting n having to fend off blockers in doing so.
Mingo...true..but we are keeping Sheard on board as well as Groves.
Don't forget our Little guys who can hit. With some speed - Gipson, Haden, Skrine n Bademosi. As for McFadden. Yes his prowess is in Cover Corner but their conference was like Air Attack U...we will find out if he is any good against the run???
3-4 D was actually conceived to stop the run. But we got guys here who are good against the Run - Don't forget Rubin, Hughes among others - yes our draft picks definitely concentrated on the Air Defense. Bryant - got to see the D in effect.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
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Quote:
As for Bryant n others who have a "Pass Rush" reputation due to their aptitude for Penetrating the LOS. In a discipline Read n React Defense this actually is a Negative n shows lack of discipline for 2 gap responsibility. But our New Defense which we all have to experience before knowing with certainty. I believe will take advantage of that penetration in the run game as well as the passing game. Our Run D improved but it did lack that Tackle for loss that puts teams in a hole - bend but not break put us in numerous 3rd n short situations. Limiting our 3 n outs.
Hey Tabber - just a quick note on Bryant. If you watch any of his game film from last season, he is actually very disciplined on his actual gap for most run plays. The only plays IIRC where he was usually out of position were sweep plays that he overran.
I think the thing that makes me most nervous next season as far as our D goes are sweep plays to the weakside, presuming Bryant and Mingo are both over there.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Joined: Mar 2013
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EO on this board nothing can be redundant if it's accompanied by intelligence. It's too rare! haha
As far as the issue of run D I will say that I do believe our front 7 is far superior to the Cardinals talent wise. Perhaps that will be a difference maker? I just don't know yet. So I go off of the past stats of Hortons Defenses as well as general consensus(and my own tape study) from the "experts" for the new guys.
The guys we have in place prior to this year are better run stoppers than who we brought in. Although I think Rubin and Phil may be slightly overrated in that department by some they are at least average.
DQ I think will have his best season. He is an underrated blitzer and is excellent at selling false intentions. Also very downhill if he's kept clean. I loved JMJ and I think he wins the ILB battle while Robertson stays on nickle duty which will help a small deal.
TJ is explosive but he does miss a lot of tackles. When he gets you your done but he will miss angles more than I would like which does hurt on big runs becoming bigger.
For the new guys I am worried. I don't think Hortons runs a D identical to Pitt. Otherwise his run D's would not be ranked so badly. He is from the same school but even Mangini didnt run a D identical to BB. If anyone has any info on how they differ I would love to read it as I am unaware but think there has to be a difference.
Mingo is very active and sound in run D but is light and his biggest knock is some of the worst tackling I've seen.
Bryant is a remarkable athlete but everything I read and watched says he lacks in the run game. Same with Kruger. Both were out of games at times last year for that reason.
McFadden from what I saw on tape can get blocked pretty easily. He does make up for it in coverage but still.
I would love to think the penetration of the new D will result in great run D like Pitt. It's a logical thought I think. I would like to think the great athletes we brought in will keep RB's from even reaching the LOS. But then why was the Cards run D soo terrible? Nearly worst in the league.
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