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Most people would probably agree w/that, but I don't think it's a clear-cut decision.
Matt Ryan is surrounded by a wealth of talent. They have had a very good running game and their WRs and TE are w/out equal in the entire NFL. Ryan always has a nice regular season but doesn't get it done in the playoffs. I wonder if he has the guts to be excellent when he really needs to be.
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Dawg Talker
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I like Stafford's guts and Ryan poise. Ryan makes better decisions. Stafford has better arm talent. Their kind of opposites really. I think Rivers in his prime is a good example of a mesh of the two. He has an arrogance only matched by his poise. A velocity of Stafford(not the strongest arm but great velocity) and poise of Ryan and athleticism of a sloth(his biggest downfall). To me Rivers is Peyton Manning minus a few IQ points and with a gunslinger 'tude. JMHO
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Hall of Famer
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1. Any current NFL player at his current age. TE Rob Gronkowski
2. Any current NFL player as a rookie, S Ed Reed
3. Any retired NFL player as a rookie. CB Deion Sanders
#gmstrong
Live, Love, Laugh
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Legend
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Quote:
Most people would probably agree w/that, but I don't think it's a clear-cut decision.
Matt Ryan is surrounded by a wealth of talent. They have had a very good running game and their WRs and TE are w/out equal in the entire NFL. Ryan always has a nice regular season but doesn't get it done in the playoffs. I wonder if he has the guts to be excellent when he really needs to be.
on talent: Yes, the Falcons have a ton of talent. However, Ryan has always got it done with whoever was on the team (though he has always had Roddy White). And, I have a hard time believing that Ryan does not get some credit for how well his receiving corps plays.
on playoffs: If you beat Ryan in the playoffs, then you will win the NFC. He has only missed the playoffs once in his career and he has only been beaten by eventual NFC champions. Yes, he did have struggles in past years, but he was phenomenal against both the Seahawks and 49ers vaunted defenses last season. Also, he is only 27yo.
I don't know which player you would like to open up the debate given the parameters, but it'll be pretty easy to defeat the arguments if you would like to put them out there.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Ok took me a while but finally got it...lol I was like wondering why dawgs were only picking one retired HOFer...  Only one allowed of each category....got it 
A lot has to be for the current Browns...at first I'm thinking of great pass rushers but realize we got a Good front 7 especially for pass rushing.
Current Player...Patrick Peterson, I think he's special, Watt was an option but I think Peterson helps the Browns more.
Veteran getting him as a rookie: Palo as a rookie Speed in this attack speed with Haden n Peterson as his Corners and matched up with Ward at safety - even if Palo goes to FS n attacks from there or Ward to FS. Thought about Calvin n Willis who are in their prime n top in their positions...just not difference makers on this team.
Retired player: My first thought was Reggie White maybe better than Watt
Deion? nah not my idea of a Brown! Too bad we can't go w/QB with each category a great one...I would have loved to see Otto Graham in this new O
Not a need but got to go with the best Football Player EVER TO PLAY. Jim Brown - our Offense would be AMAZING! I know most will say HOMER...lol  but think about it. For 9 years somebody who Averages over 5 yards per carry n dominate that was with all 11 looking to stop him. I did think of Bo Jackson cause I thought he was only one who could dominate like JB....Sanders was there also. LT too small n in those days Left Tackles were not athletic like today those left tackles just could not move fast enough. I did think of a healthy Dick Butkus...the first big fast LB in the NFL numbers that would be great in today's NFL numbers meaning speed n weight. Butkus played with -0- knees most of his career.
So my three: Patrick Peterson, Troy Polamalu and Jim Brown
Thanks for the fun
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Based on the needs that we currently have on the team at the moment...
#1 - Earl Thomas FS (Seattle) Either now or as a rookie.
#2 - Julio Jones WR (Atlanta) We should have taken him in 2011....
#3 - Marshall Yanda OG (Baltimore) Mauler of an offensive guard.
I don't like picking legends, just seems way to unrealistic ha ha.
"You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave"
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1. Any current NFL player at his current age. Calvin Johnson DET
2. Any current NFL player as a rookie, Joe Thomas CLE
3. Any retired NFL player as a rookie. Barry Sanders DET
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1. Any current NFL player at his current age. Charles Johnson
2. Any current NFL player as a rookie. Darelle Revis
3. Any retired NFL player as a rookie. Ozzie Newsome
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All Pro
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first player a.j green
2 champ bailey.
3 dick butkus
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Legend
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I don't know which player you would like to open up the debate given the parameters, but it'll be pretty easy to defeat the arguments if you would like to put them out there.
LOL.....at least in your own mind. You're the same guy who had that crazy list w/Luck ranked pretty low, right?
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2nd String
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Can I just say that Rivers sucks?
He sucks. He has always sucked. He has been the great beneficiary of having great players at all levels of his offense when times were good.
No. Just no.
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Hall of Fame running game, with great FB included.
Completely washed-up by 2008, Rivers' third season starting. The great FB was gone by Rivers' third season as well. And Rivers started playing significantly better when LT finally was washed-up. That’s when he started playing at an elite level.
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Hall of Fame TE.
He started getting constantly injured in 2010 and has been merely a little above average since then. Also, someone on the Chargers forum posted his stats with and without Gates and they're practically even. I actually think Rivers is better without Gates at times because he tends to lock onto Gates as opposed to making his progressions.
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Very good to great stable of WRs.
They were never better than "good" and they were only at that level in 2008, 2009, and 2011. In 2006-2007, VJ and Floyd hadn't broken out yet. In 2010, VJ held out for most of the season and Floyd and Gates were injured for much of the year, and Rivers had the statistical best season of his career throwing to Seyi Ajirotutu, Legedu Naanee, Kelley Washington, and other practice squad scrubs. In other words, he's only had good receivers for half of his starting career and has played well without them as long as he’s had average pass protection.
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Hall of Fame O-Coordinator
Who refused to make adjustments to his schemes when the offensive line became among the league's worst. He's just as much to blame for Rivers' downfall as he was for his ascendancy.
All of the above shows how little understanding most have of the San Diego Chargers under Norv. That most talented team in the league talk was BS. The Chargers haven't been talented since 2007. Cleveland’s supporting cast for Weeden this upcoming season, on paper, is better than Rivers’ supporting cast has ever been. People seem to think that LT, Neal, Sproles, Michael Turner, Gates, VJ, Floyd, McNeill, Hardwick, and Dielman were all good at the same time, but they're wrong. Those guys never simultaneously played together at a high level. This is actually how I would characterize the seasons:
2006: Great offensive line, all-time-great running game, below-average WRs, elite TE
2007: Decent offensive line, great running game, below-average WRs, elite TE
2008: Average offensive line, below-average running game, good WRs, elite TE
2009: Average offensive line, league's worst running game, good WRs, elite TE
2010: Average offensive line, mediocre running game, terrible WRs (VJ held out for most of the season, Floyd was injured a lot), elite TE who missed 6 games
2011: Terrible offensive line outside of the 5 games Gaither started, solid running game, good WRs, slightly above average TE
2012: League's second worst offensive line, one of the league's worst running games, terrible WRs outside of Alexander for half of the season, average TE
Rivers was an excellent game-manager in 2006 and had a season equivalent to Derek Anderson’s one good season in 2007. Rivers was on Manning/Rodgers/Brady level from 2008-2010. Considering how little talent has been around him since 2011, the fact that his stats are still above average nowadays is pretty impressive. There’s not one QB in the league outside of Rodgers and maybe Romo (quick release and mobile) who would be doing better than Rivers is doing (statistically) in his current situation. To frame it another way, his stats for the past two years are neck-and-neck with Ryan's stats prior to last season (last year he had three all-pro receivers all at once), or Flacco's career stats. Only Ryan and Flacco have never played with near as little talent as Rivers is playing with right now.
I’m not going to argue with anyone who thinks Rivers is anti-clutch because they’d be right. But at least Rivers was tied with Brett Favre for the most fourth quarter game-winning drives in the first 70 starts of a QB’s career. It hasn’t always been this way.
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We've seen what happens now when you take away the HoF running game, when the HoF TE gets older and when you lose VJax. Now Turner is gone.
No, all we’ve seen is what happens to a QB when his offensive line becomes among the league’s worst and said QB has an awkward throwing motion and plays in a vertical offense.
For the past two seasons, the Chargers have had this immensely talented guy named Jared Gaither at the left tackle position. He made a terrible offensive line close to average at times. Rivers has a 98.7 QB rating with Jared Gaither starting. Unfortunately, Gaither has a major attitude and injury issues and has only started nine games in the past two years. Rivers has a 84.2 QB rating with any other left tackle (Harris, McNeill, Haslam, Dombrowski — all of which suck, especially Harris) starting for him during the past two years.
Nine games is a pretty good predictor of trends. It’s enough to make me fairly certain that the problem is the offensive line — not a lack of VJ, Sproles, Gates, or anyone else. Rivers has played extremely well with all of those guys out of the lineup, provided his pass protection was okay.
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Watch what happens now. I think SD is looking at a Top 8 pick next year. And I've said it elsewhere...Rivers arm is shot. If he's a starting NFL QB in 2015 color me shocked.
The perceived lack of arm strength all relates to his awkward throwing motion. While being pressured, he can't throw the ball very far like a Cutler or Stafford can. Instead, Rivers needs to be able to set his feet in order to throw the ball downfield. This is a problem when your offensive coordinator loves throwing the ball downfield and refuses to adjust his scheme even though his QB is playing behind one of the league's worst offensive lines. If you look at the tape when Jared Gaither isn't starting at left tackle from the past two years, you'll see that Rivers is constantly throwing off his back-foot. Cutler can get away with this — Rivers can't. Hence the myths about Rivers' arm strength declining. Give Rivers average protection like in 2007-2010 and he'll return to form. Rivers has played extremely well without good weapons at points in his career before. Weapons aren’t the issue and never will be the issue.
And speaking of Cutler, I have to laugh at anyone who think he of all QBs is better. Back when they had similar personnel (when Cutler was in Denver and had a decent offensive line), Rivers was absolutely blowing him out of the water. Now Rivers’ offensive supporting cast has declined (to the extent that it’s worse than Cutler’s — fact) and Cutler still puts up worse numbers. And I’m not even going to get into Cutler sitting out a PO game with a sprained MCL versus Rivers playing a PO game with a torn ACL.
The guy is flat-out worse than Rivers and it’s not even close.
Now as for Rivers’ play next year, it wouldn’t surprise me if he only had a high-80s QB rating (still better than most) again. San Diego’s offensive line still sucks and the FO has basically thrown in the towel in regards to competing for the division until Peyton retires. But Rivers will be elite once again, mark my words. I have very little doubt in that assertion. However, that day won’t come until he’s behind a passable offensive line again, whether that’s with the Chargers or not.
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JJ Watt
Champ Bailey
Jerry Rice
Matt Ryan
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't know which player you would like to open up the debate given the parameters, but it'll be pretty easy to defeat the arguments if you would like to put them out there.
LOL.....at least in your own mind. You're the same guy who had that crazy list w/Luck ranked pretty low, right?
it was not a ranking list, but keep on beating the dead horse.
and again, please try to spell out who is a better QB than Ryan based on the parameters above.
#gmstrong
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Dawg Talker
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1. Any current NFL player at his current age: Calvin Johnson DET
2. Any current NFL player as a rookie: Champ Bailey DEN or NaVarro Bowman SF, I'd probably go with Champ
3. Any retired NFL player as a rookie: Bo Jackson OAK
4. QB with stipulations: Matt Ryan
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j/c
what current NFL QB do you build around, taking age into consideration, but without the experience/SB parameters? With the original question I answered Matt Ryan. Without the parameters it's actually much tougher.
Let's try to narrow it down a little bit.
First I'm going to discount about half of the league's starting QBs and all of the backups/3rd stringers.
Next let's make age a major factor and drop Brady, Big Ben, Philip Rivers, Tony Romo, Drew Brees, and both Mannings. All are 31 or older. If you want to go the 'established vet' route, you can't go wrong with Aaron Rodgers who is 29.
Second last cuts for me are Flacco, Cutler, Stafford, and Kaepernick, though I expect there to be some disagreement with the players listed (and not listed) here. Also add RG3 here because of injury.
That leaves us with...
Andrew Luck
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan
Russell Wilson
I'd probably take Rodgers but age 29 is kind of pushing it for the purposes of this exercise. There just really isn't a dominant QB who has only been in the league for a few years, and I would like to see another year from the rookie phenoms.
thoughts?
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2nd String
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You know Rodgers helped the Packers win a Super Bowl in 2010, right?
Everyone would choose Rodgers if he hadn't won a Super Bowl yet. He's probably the best QB in the NFL and will be for the rest of the decade.
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I meant that as QB without stipulations. And I don't think everyone would pick Rodgers. Saying he will be the best QB for the rest of the decade involves a lot of projection for a QB who will be in his mid-late 30s at the time (depending on what you mean by rest of the decade). You don't think anybody would take one of the rookie QBs who are about 6 years younger and still early in their rookie contracts? That is more reasonable than picking Rivers over Ryan at this stage in their careers 
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2nd String
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Quote:
I meant that as QB without stipulations.
And I don't think everyone would pick Rodgers. Saying he will be the best QB for the rest of the decade involves a lot of projection for a QB who will be in his mid-late 30s at the time (depending on what you mean by rest of the decade). You don't think anybody would take one of the rookie QBs who are about 6 years younger and still early in their rookie contracts?
That is more reasonable than picking Rivers over Ryan at this stage in their careers
Ah, I see that now.
I would still pick Rodgers and it's not even close. Age and level of play at the QB position have no correlation anymore. I would win a Super Bowl with Rodgers at least once before he retires. I can't say the same for any of those others guys.
Greater chance at winning Super Bowl >>> Having an inferior QB for 5 or 6 more years
People aren't going to realize how good Aaron Rodgers is until he retires.
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I'd take Luck in a heartbeat. Rodgers would be 2 but thats a far drop for me(age considered). Give Rodgers what Luck had last season and I don't think he would've looked much better. With how cerebral Luck is don't be surprised if he is the top QB in all of football after this year. I know I'm taking him in fantasy.
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The team around Rodgers isn't very good IMO.
Luck's team is worse, but Green Bay is pretty much Aaron Rodgers and a couple decent receivers. You can throw in Clay Matthews (despite him being extremely inconsistent) and a couple other defensive players, but GB's defense still isn't much better than that of the Colts. Considering GB's run game and offensive line were both somewhere between below average and worst in the league (like the Colts), the two teams really aren't that far apart. It's not like Luck doesn't have some decent receivers as well (albeit not quite as good as Rodgers')
So yeah, give me Rodgers. Rodgers is arguably more efficient than Manning/Brady and he works with much less.
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These are all good points. For me it essentially comes down to longevity and upside for me. Normally at QB I would go with the sure thing but Luck, I believe, will be the top QB in football within the end of his 3rd year. The best QB now or the best QB in 2 years for an extra 6 years total? That is why I take Luck. Rodgers is clearly the better guy for this season as of our POV right now. By the end of the season who knows.
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Legend
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Interesting argument. Both are great players who have a lot of years left in them. You couldn't go wrong w/either guy.
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Fair enough.
I think the performances of Brady, Manning, Brees, and Warner in recent years suggest that Rodgers will be playing at an elite level well into his 30s.
We'll see if Luck can surpass that level. I personally don't think he can, as I don't even think Manning or Brady are matching it at the moment.
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I think Rodgers body will hold up better than either Manning or Brady I would bet. I remember watching a video on him and I know he's a big fan of yoga. He just plays so loose. I study human phys a lot and the guy is what you want in an athlete. He's fluid. Manning and Brady tend to look like robots. Rodgers could last until 40.
I think my choice is a risk but the skill set is there. Someone will have to overtake as top dog eventually. Not that Rodgers will regress.
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Legend
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Legend
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1. Any current NFL player at his current age: Calvin Johnson DET
2. Any current NFL player as a rookie: JJ Watt
3. Any retired NFL player as a rookie: Jim Brown
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2nd String
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That is more reasonable than picking Rivers over Ryan at this stage in their careers
I was going to let this go, but I've decided that I'm going to address it quickly. Not that I'm upset or anything. 
It's funny because Heldawg's short-sighted post on why Rivers sucks actually applies well to Matt Ryan (not that Ryan sucks). 2012 Matt Ryan is a product of his supporting cast.
Matt Ryan is a QB who's going to give you a high-80s to low-90s QB rating with about 4,000 yards each season, provided he has average-decent personnel. In other words, he's a slightly above average NFL QB. Of course, if you give the slightly above average NFL QB a set of all-pro receivers, he's going to be very good. This is the story of Matt Ryan's career. He's had one season with excellent personnel and he played well. He's had four seasons with decent personnel and he played decently.
Rivers is a QB who's going to give you a high-80s to low-90s QB rating with about 4,000 yards each season with terrible personnel. Meanwhile, when given decent personnel (but still worse than Ryan's infamous all-pro receiving core), Rivers can be a QB who gives you a 100+ QB rating. Or at least that's what has happened three times (2008-2010). Hell, you can give Rivers ragged players at the skill positions and give him at least an average offensive line, and he'll perform better than Matt Ryan ever has (2010 season).
It would be one thing if Ryan was more successful than Rivers in terms of leading his team to success, but he's not. Neither of them have done anything other than get their respective teams to the POs at times.
Rivers is a better QB, and would put up superior numbers in Cleveland since the offensive personnel here is arguably better than he had in San Diego during his 100+ QB rating glory days. Not to mention he already knows the playbook and I wouldn't waste a year teaching my incoming QB and working out the kinks.
Meanwhile, Matt Ryan would fall back down to Earth like in his first four seasons (high-80s to low-90s QB rating with about 4,000 yards) without his all-pro receiving core.
I know me choosing Philip Rivers over Matt Ryan is extreme and earth-shattering to those with short memories, but with a little analysis, it's really not that shocking of a position to take.
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I have neither the time nor the inclination to retort your long post. I disagree as to the talent but I'm just going to leave it be. One thing I will say is that Rivers has never had a strong arm and you're right he needs to anchor to have any chance of throwing into a tighter window. But I'd have to assume you watched the Chargers@Browns game this year. And the poor guy just couldn't get the ball down the field in a terrible weather day. The arm difference between Weeden and Rivers was obvious. Rivers could not throw the ball more than 10 yards effectively. In fact he completed ZERO passes thrown further than 10 yards downfield. I really do think the Chargers are now a bad football team. They are certainly not a playoff team. I think they're a lock for a top 10 pick in 2014.
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Rivers could not throw the ball more than 10 yards effectively. In fact he completed ZERO passes thrown further than 10 yards downfield.
Again, that's what happens when you have a shot-put throwing motion and play on a team that has the second-worst offensive line in the NFL.
I'm not going to hold it against him since every team in the NFL except for the Cardinals (who with Levi Brown coming back, will improve this season) has a better offensive line than he does, and yet he still puts up better numbers than a little over half of the NFL's starting QBs.
Also, basing your entire opinion of Philip Rivers on one of the worst games of his professional career (yet alone season) makes no sense.
EDIT: What part about the "talent" don't you agree about? Because I'd be glad to prove you wrong.
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I really do think the Chargers are now a bad football team. They are certainly not a playoff team.
I think they're a lock for a top 10 pick in 2014.
They're not a lock, but it wouldn't surprise me.
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While not a Chargers fan I've probably seen two dozen of his games closely and probably another 30 on or off. Antonio Gates has been a go to guy in fantasy football for years for me and I've watched that "battery" play a whole lot.
Another game that I remember well from last year was the Broncos come back. He was on cloud 9 the first half and then totally fubar the second.
I just think his throwing skills have degraded measurably and last year he looked pretty bad at times.
And btw...you have sold your receiving corp way too short.
Having a bunch of dudes the size that you did meant that the defense couldn't hide a guy like Buster Skrine on a smaller wideout. It looked like you had 4 6'5" dudes running routes out there making a guy who is accurate like Rivers pretty deadly.
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Our 11 set with Gordon, Little, Cameron and Nelson is going to look like that too.
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While not a Chargers fan I've probably seen two dozen of his games closely and probably another 30 on or off. Antonio Gates has been a go to guy in fantasy football for years for me and I've watched that "battery" play a whole lot.
Gates get his TDs. That doesn't mean he's that great anymore. Lots of dropped passes and he's kinda slow. Philip Rivers had his best game of the season when Gates was out nursing an injury and he threw 3 TDs to Dante Rosario (our backup TE).
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I just think his throwing skills have degraded measurably and last year he looked pretty bad at times.
Offensive line. Offensive line. Offensive line.
With Rivers' wacky throwing motion, a bad one doesn't cut it.
Not that Rivers has been anything worse than a slightly above average NFL starting QB over the past two years. But he could be a lot better.
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And btw...you have sold your receiving corp way too short.
Having a bunch of dudes the size that you did meant that the defense couldn't hide a guy like Buster Skrine on a smaller wideout. It looked like you had 4 6'5" dudes running routes out there making a guy who is accurate like Rivers pretty deadly.
If you're referring to the Cleveland game specifically, our WRs sucked. Meachem is freaking terrible and he was our #1 WR at the time. He actually dropped a wide-open catch for what would have been a TD in that game. And BTW, he's 6'2. Floyd, meanwhile, is a decent #2. Danario Alexander (our good WR last year) was fresh off the Rams practice squad a few days earlier and only played a few snaps in this particular game. Those were our three WRs that day.
As for our receiving core over the years, it's been inconsistent. They were below-average in 2006-2007 (washed-up Keenan McCardell, Eric Parker, washed-up Chris Chambers, etc) and good from 2008-2009 since VJ and Floyd were the starters. In 2010 they sucked since VJ held-out and Floyd missed much of the season. In 2011 they were good again with VJ and Floyd. In 2012 they sucked until Danario Alexander came.
I don't know how much clearer I can make it. Rivers' receiving cores have been a mixed bag throughout his career.
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JC
I am assuming its to add to the current Brown's roster. You can go either way here offense or defense so will do it for both.
Defense Minded
1. Any current NFL player at his current age: CB Patrick Peterson
2. Any current NFL player as a rookie: FS Ed Reed
3. Any retired NFL player as a rookie: LB Ray Lewis
Add those three to our current defense and I think teams would be lucky to score 10 points a game.
Offense Minded
1. Any current NFL player at his current age: WR Calvin Johnson
2. Any current NFL player as a rookie: TE Antonio Games
3. Any retired NFL player as a rookie: WR Jerry Rice
You put those guys on the field with Gordon, Little,and Trent and explain it to me how you can stop it. You can't.
The QB question:
That's tough. If currently playing and you want to go to the Superbowl at least twice with this once in a 1000 years team then it would be Aaron Rodgers. He would win at least 2 Superbowls in the next 5 years with our roster much less a pick any 3 players to add with him. In this offense he would be a God among children.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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That is more reasonable than picking Rivers over Ryan at this stage in their careers
I was going to let this go, but I've decided that I'm going to address it quickly. Not that I'm upset or anything.
It's funny because Heldawg's short-sighted post on why Rivers sucks actually applies well to Matt Ryan (not that Ryan sucks). 2012 Matt Ryan is a product of his supporting cast.
Matt Ryan is a QB who's going to give you a high-80s to low-90s QB rating with about 4,000 yards each season, provided he has average-decent personnel. In other words, he's a slightly above average NFL QB. Of course, if you give the slightly above average NFL QB a set of all-pro receivers, he's going to be very good. This is the story of Matt Ryan's career. He's had one season with excellent personnel and he played well. He's had four seasons with decent personnel and he played decently.
Rivers is a QB who's going to give you a high-80s to low-90s QB rating with about 4,000 yards each season with terrible personnel. Meanwhile, when given decent personnel (but still worse than Ryan's infamous all-pro receiving core), Rivers can be a QB who gives you a 100+ QB rating. Or at least that's what has happened three times (2008-2010). Hell, you can give Rivers ragged players at the skill positions and give him at least an average offensive line, and he'll perform better than Matt Ryan ever has (2010 season).
It would be one thing if Ryan was more successful than Rivers in terms of leading his team to success, but he's not. Neither of them have done anything other than get their respective teams to the POs at times.
Rivers is a better QB, and would put up superior numbers in Cleveland since the offensive personnel here is arguably better than he had in San Diego during his 100+ QB rating glory days. Not to mention he already knows the playbook and I wouldn't waste a year teaching my incoming QB and working out the kinks.
Meanwhile, Matt Ryan would fall back down to Earth like in his first four seasons (high-80s to low-90s QB rating with about 4,000 yards) without his all-pro receiving core.
I know me choosing Philip Rivers over Matt Ryan is extreme and earth-shattering to those with short memories, but with a little analysis, it's really not that shocking of a position to take.
I think you underestimate Matt Ryan. Yeah the big 3 (Roddy White, Tony Gonzalez, and Juuuuulio) are great but outside of those guys, the rest of the offense has been very average.
Let's not forget the absolute mess that Mike Vick and Bobby Petrino left behind that Matt Ryan had to walk into. While he was playing for that team, Rivers was enjoying playing with a prime Gates, VJax, Floyd, Ladainian Tomlinson... in Norv's offense no less. That's not taking too much away from Rivers. I have said on here before that he has been one of the game's underrated QBs for many years. Actually neither get the respect they deserve due to the lack of post-season success.
However I do think Rivers is regressing at least in arm strength, along with the other faults on the team. I know there are a ton of recent QBs who have played some of their best football in their mid to late 30s, but there are also a lot of other guys who start to decline much earlier than that. Rivers might be one of them. We'll see.
Even if he's not, for the purposes of building around a QB for the future, Rivers is still almost 4 years older. What's 4 years you say? That's 4 prime years you get with one guy that you don't get with the other guy, and that's a big deal.
As a Chargers and Browns fan (presumably?), I can understand why you might think differently. I'm not saying you are a homer, just that you're probably much more familiar with the Chargers plights and predisposed to liking Rivers, and from the Browns side you have probably read the 100 or so fluff pieces on why being 29 years old is the same as being 22 years old (actually being 29 is better, if you believe everything you read )
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2nd String
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2nd String
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That is more reasonable than picking Rivers over Ryan at this stage in their careers
I was going to let this go, but I've decided that I'm going to address it quickly. Not that I'm upset or anything.
It's funny because Heldawg's short-sighted post on why Rivers sucks actually applies well to Matt Ryan (not that Ryan sucks). 2012 Matt Ryan is a product of his supporting cast.
Matt Ryan is a QB who's going to give you a high-80s to low-90s QB rating with about 4,000 yards each season, provided he has average-decent personnel. In other words, he's a slightly above average NFL QB. Of course, if you give the slightly above average NFL QB a set of all-pro receivers, he's going to be very good. This is the story of Matt Ryan's career. He's had one season with excellent personnel and he played well. He's had four seasons with decent personnel and he played decently.
Rivers is a QB who's going to give you a high-80s to low-90s QB rating with about 4,000 yards each season with terrible personnel. Meanwhile, when given decent personnel (but still worse than Ryan's infamous all-pro receiving core), Rivers can be a QB who gives you a 100+ QB rating. Or at least that's what has happened three times (2008-2010). Hell, you can give Rivers ragged players at the skill positions and give him at least an average offensive line, and he'll perform better than Matt Ryan ever has (2010 season).
It would be one thing if Ryan was more successful than Rivers in terms of leading his team to success, but he's not. Neither of them have done anything other than get their respective teams to the POs at times.
Rivers is a better QB, and would put up superior numbers in Cleveland since the offensive personnel here is arguably better than he had in San Diego during his 100+ QB rating glory days. Not to mention he already knows the playbook and I wouldn't waste a year teaching my incoming QB and working out the kinks.
Meanwhile, Matt Ryan would fall back down to Earth like in his first four seasons (high-80s to low-90s QB rating with about 4,000 yards) without his all-pro receiving core.
I know me choosing Philip Rivers over Matt Ryan is extreme and earth-shattering to those with short memories, but with a little analysis, it's really not that shocking of a position to take.
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I think you underestimate Matt Ryan. Yeah the big 3 (Roddy White, Tony Gonzalez, and Juuuuulio) are great but outside of those guys, the rest of the offense has been very average.
Jacquizz Rodgers is really underrated. And at least their offensive line is average. All in all, his supporting cast last year is better than anything Rivers has ever had. So no, I don't think I'm underestimating him. His offense personnel was decent for his first four years and he played accordingly. His stats shot up to Rivers' 2008-2010 levels when he finally had excellent offensive personnel around him, better than Rivers has ever had. Yes, I know I'm repeating my previous argument here, I'll go into more detail in some other responses below.
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Let's not forget the absolute mess that Mike Vick and Bobby Petrino left behind that Matt Ryan had to walk into.
And he always had a decent offensive line, a great WR in Roddy White, and a very good RB (until last year) in Michael Turner. The situation was nowhere near as bad as the situation Rivers has been in for the last two years (not saying you were claiming this), even though Rivers' stats for the past two years are equal to Ryan's stats for his first four years.
Ryan's offensive personnel has always been at least decent.
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While he was playing for that team, Rivers was enjoying playing with a prime Gates, VJax, Floyd, Ladainian Tomlinson... in Norv's offense no less. That's not taking too much away from Rivers. I have said on here before that he has been one of the game's underrated QBs for many years. Actually neither get the respect they deserve due to the lack of post-season success.
I keep trying to say the bolded is a misconception. The LT era and the VJ/Floyd eras are different. As one became washed-up, the other two stepped up. The only constant has been Gates, who's been declining rapidly since midway through 2010.
There never was a team with LT, Neal, Michael Turner, Sproles, VJ, Floyd, prime-Gates, and a great offensive line. As some of these guys declined or left for other franchises, others stepped up, but they never all played together at the same time.
So I'm very comfortable with saying that Ryan's 2012 supporting cast is much than Rivers' has ever been, and that Rivers' supporting cast for the past two years has been among the worst in the league.
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However I do think Rivers is regressing at least in arm strength, along with the other faults on the team. I know there are a ton of recent QBs who have played some of their best football in their mid to late 30s, but there are also a lot of other guys who start to decline much earlier than that. Rivers might be one of them. We'll see.
I just don't see any declining arm strength. All I see is horrendous footwork based on a horrendous offensive line in an offense predicated on the deep-ball. It's a bad situation.
Also, I can't actually think of a starting QB who has declined due to age in the past few years. Crazy, I know. You could probably put out a few for me. Michael Vick is iffy because his struggles aren't related to age IMO.
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Even if he's not, for the purposes of building around a QB for the future, Rivers is still almost 4 years older. What's 4 years you say? That's 4 prime years you get with one guy that you don't get with the other guy, and that's a big deal.
Yeah, I'd take the three-and-a-half year hit. I think I'd waste about a year on bringing Matt Ryan up to speed with Norv's offense (since he's not Peyton Manning and isn't a football genius), leaving me two-and-a-half years. I'd definitely take a QB who I'm confident would be a 100+ QB rating guy in Cleveland's offense (since again, the personnel is better here than it was during Rivers' peak years) over Matt Ryan, even with a two-and-a-half-year hit.
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As a Chargers and Browns fan (presumably?), I can understand why you might think differently. I'm not saying you are a homer, just that you're probably much more familiar with the Chargers plights and predisposed to liking Rivers, and from the Browns side you have probably read the 100 or so fluff pieces on why being 29 years old is the same as being 22 years old (actually being 29 is better, if you believe everything you read )
I can see why someone would take Ryan over Rivers at this point in their careers. I just don't think that would be the correct decision. I think if people analyzed both teams' offensive personnel over the years and both QBs' play in relation to said personnel, rather than draw conclusions from what little they've seen of both QBs on TV and 2012's stats, they would choose Rivers. Even with the age difference.
But like I wrote earlier, don't get me wrong, I can why someone would choose Matt Ryan. I just wouldn't do the same.
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You make some good points; I actually agree with a lot of them but I would still take Ryan over Rivers in a team building situation so we'll just have to agree to disagree. The only thing I will add is a point about QBs regressing. Here is a post I made earlier this year (it actually had to do with the Weeden selection but I'm just posting the relevant snippet so as to not derail the thread.) https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1012676Quote:
QBs definitely can play effectively into their mid-late 30s, but it's usually the best quarterbacks who even get a chance. For every Kurt Warner, Peyton Manning, and Brett Favre there are dozens of guys who are out of the league for good or are/were struggling to hold onto a job or even roster spot period like Chad Pennington, Donovan McNabb, Carson Palmer, Matt Hasselbeck, Drew Bledsoe, Jason Campbell, Marc Bulger, maybe even Philip Rivers soon. That's just a short list I could come up with off the top of my head but a lot of them were regressing pretty badly in their early-mid 30s.
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I hadn't used this site to formulate any of my opinions in this thread but as long as it makes me look better, let's post it 2012: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/05/06/pffs-top-101-of-2012-the-full-list/17. Matt Ryan, QB, Atlanta Falcons Rivers not listed 2011: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/05/03/the-pro-football-focus-top-101-players-of-2011/74. Matt Ryan, QB, Atlanta Falcons 89. Philip Rivers, QB, San Diego Chargers 2010: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/05/06/the-top-101-players-of-2010-the-top-20/8. Matt Ryan, QB, Atlanta Falcons 12. Philip Rivers, QB, San Diego Chargers
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2nd String
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Haha, I like PFF and I reference it a lot. (although a small portion of their content can be iffy at times) I can't argue with 2011/2012 because Ryan was obviously better than Rivers. I think that's mostly based on supporting cast, but either way, I can't deny that Ryan was better. One thing the 2011 description doesn't make note of is that Jared Gaither (who was a huge upgrade over anyone else they started at left tackle that year) was Rivers' starting left tackle for the last five games of the season. Four of those five games he started ended up being Rivers' best games of the season — legitimizing the claim that pass protection is the X-factor in San Diego. I completely disagree with the 2010 rankings. By reading Matt Ryan's description, you can tell a huge reason why they put him there was his clutch play. Rivers, meanwhile, struggled in the clutch all year-long, but it wasn't his fault that the Chargers were in so many close games. San Diego had the worst special teams unit in NFL history, which lost them at least three games: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/81037...ut-steve-crosby And yes, I know Bleacher Report sucks, but that's actually a decent article outside of the fact that it fails to mention that Kris Brown made a 45-yard field goal to beat the Patriots, which was then brought back due to a false start. Then Kris Brown missed the 50-yard field goal for the win. Anyhow, Rivers had less offensive talent around him and yet he put up much better stats. He wasn't clutch, but it wasn't even his own play that was putting him in the situations in which he needed to come through in the clutch. If he had a special teams unit that wasn't historically bad, everything would have been hunky dory until he choked in the POs again. Overall, I really don't think an argument can be made for Ryan being better than Rivers in 2010 if supporting cast or even sheer luck are considered. That's just my opinion although I think I followed it up reasonably well.
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