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Good stuff...thanks. 
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
Good stuff...thanks.
No doubt.
We certainly realize the failures of past drafts and the consequences of, but it's right there "glaring at us".
The "ONE" player (4 total) still on the team from drafts 2006, 07, 08, and 09 is no doubt the answer to a whole lotta..............
Let this sink in..... On 12-31-23 it be will 123123.
On the flip side, you can tune a piano but you can't tune-a-fish.
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Thanks for the link, always looking for more football resources. Am I the only one puzzled by the omission of Gilkey? Or, did I miss something?
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At least the roster wasn't gutted this year.  Joshua Cribbs Emmanuel Acho Phil Dawson Eric Hagg Sheldon Brown Reggie Hodges Josh Johnson Scott Fujita Mohamed Massaquoi Chris Gocong Colt McCoy Kaluka Maiava Alex Smith Juqua Parker Benjamin Watson Frostee Rucker Ray Ventrone Usama Young
Last edited by TTTDawg; 05/30/13 09:28 AM.
Let this sink in..... On 12-31-23 it be will 123123.
On the flip side, you can tune a piano but you can't tune-a-fish.
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Legend
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When you only have 4 players left from pre-2010, it's a telling stat... Go look at the Steelers, the 49ers, etc and look at the difference... 
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
At least the roster wasn't gutted this year.
Joshua Cribbs
Emmanuel Acho
Phil Dawson
Eric Hagg
Sheldon Brown
Reggie Hodges
Josh Johnson
Scott Fujita
Mohamed Massaquoi
Chris Gocong
Colt McCoy
Kaluka Maiava
Alex Smith
Juqua Parker
Benjamin Watson
Frostee Rucker
Ray Ventrone
Usama Young
I sure wish we would have kept those guys. They are mostly scrubs that probably wont play anywhere else.
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Quote:
At least the roster wasn't gutted this year.
Joshua Cribbs
Emmanuel Acho
Phil Dawson
Eric Hagg
Sheldon Brown
Reggie Hodges
Josh Johnson
Scott Fujita
Mohamed Massaquoi
Chris Gocong
Colt McCoy
Kaluka Maiava
Alex Smith
Juqua Parker
Benjamin Watson
Frostee Rucker
Ray Ventrone
Usama Young
?
That seems like a normal offseason in the Not For Long. You realize there are guys who are retired or who no longer wanted to play for the Browns on that list? Some misfits in the new schemes. Others who aren't even on a 90 man off-season roster? Others still will be cut when rosters are trimmed to 53. I don't see anybody on that list, who in a few years, the Browns will be looking back and saying WOW, how did we get rid of that guy?!
No... the guys who have real value or mid-long term potential are still here... like JT, Mack, Schwartz, Weeden, TRich, Gordon, Little, Rubin, Taylor, Sheard, Ward, Haden, and others.
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Quote:
When you only have 4 players left from pre-2010, it's a telling stat...
Go look at the Steelers, the 49ers, etc and look at the difference...
49ers have the same kind of thing... in fact most teams I looked at had the same type of thing
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
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Legend
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Quote:
At least the roster wasn't gutted this year.
Joshua Cribbs
Emmanuel Acho
Phil Dawson
Eric Hagg
Sheldon Brown
Reggie Hodges
Josh Johnson
Scott Fujita
Mohamed Massaquoi
Chris Gocong
Colt McCoy
Kaluka Maiava
Alex Smith
Juqua Parker
Benjamin Watson
Frostee Rucker
Ray Ventrone
Usama Young
Brought here as Browns from College:
Cribbs - Injuries limits his contribution...still love the guy.
Acho - injured n we traded him for Lewis...good move.
Hagg - something fishy about that release that we do not know...just guessing but he was a ST or depth guy nothing to be upset about.
MoMass - Ruined by injuries - one concussion away from retirement.
Colt - thought we got a great return for our #3 QB.
Maiava - too small a ST depth guy but if he's a starter you are hurting.
these all are Bottom of the barrel turnovers - 2 out of the 3 from Heckert's draft got us Trade value in return - all 3 were not starter material.
Guys brought here via FA to fit the previous system.
Sheldon Brown...every season sees his skills deteriorate.
Gocong...coming off an Achilles injury - he n Brown were brought here via trade.
Smith - Watson...Getting there in years n were OK in their roles at best.
Parker, Rucker n Young - all FA to help the Jauron D...none looked to fit in our new system n none really that good.
ST guys:
Dawson - we all loved him...he would have retired in 3 seasons. This is the one guy I would think could be a mistake - I would have liked to have him here.
Hodges - GOOD RIDDANCE!
Ventrone - tough guy for the ST. but a dime a dozen nothing major in a loss - we chose to go younger for the 40 something player on our Roster???
Guys who were gone no matter what.
Josh Johnson - WHO? lol brought here at the end of last year when we had QB injuries n Lewis our #3 got a start. He was gone no matter who was here.
Fujita - hardly played a rep last couple of seasons...he was a retirement in process.
4 Starters gone.
Sheldon, Gocong, Rucker n Watson - If Sheldon was 5 years younger a big mistake. One thing I have observed is when NFL players age...they age FAST.
Gocong...who knows with an Achilles Injury will he play in 2013?
Rucker...one year guy who didn't come close to fitting our system.
Watson...probably the only guy who could have started here although he has multiple concussion history.
to me this all are logical Turnover n not a raiding of the Regime change roster. I'm sure the numbers will be very similar from all 31 other teams change of roster...probably very avg or might even be less than most. No Revis' in there. Dawson n Watson really the 2 with game left but in their last legs.
This is not a NEW REGIME PURGE of any degree just a normal turnover of a Roster.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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No doubt. In any given year on any given team you are going to see the turn over of maybe 10-12 players simply because they were the last guys on the team and another 3-4 you might have wanted to keep but circumstance wouldn't allow.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
When you only have 4 players left from pre-2010, it's a telling stat...
Go look at the Steelers, the 49ers, etc and look at the difference...
49ers have the same kind of thing... in fact most teams I looked at had the same type of thing
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sfo/draft.htm
pre-2006: Frank Gore, Isaac Sopoaga,
2006 Parys Harrelson, Vernon Davis
2007 Patrick Willis, Joe Staley, Tarell Brown
2008 No picks still with team
2009 Michael Crabtree, Curtis Taylor (on/off - injuries), Ricky Jean-Francois
So, we have 4 players, the 49ers have 10 players from before the 2010 draft.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Quote:
When you only have 4 players left from pre-2010, it's a telling stat...
Go look at the Steelers, the 49ers, etc and look at the difference...
Hehe, it seems like a version of this statement can be (and has been) said in every year since 2000.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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We have a very young team with a very bright future ...
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
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Legend
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90% of them people are and were nobodies...
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Quote:
90% of them people are and were nobodies...
And until they prove otherwise, so are the ones we have now. No different than previous years.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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All Pro
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Which is no different than the 31 other teams draft picks.
You dont have to win every game just the next one!
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Legend
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Quote:
No doubt. In any given year on any given team you are going to see the turn over of maybe 10-12 players simply because they were the last guys on the team and another 3-4 you might have wanted to keep but circumstance wouldn't allow.
Exactly.. most teams, even really good teams, have that turnover of 10-15 guys at the bottom of the roster... difference is the top third of their roster is much more established and better than ours and those guys stay a long time.... that's what we haven't had.
yebat' Putin
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And the Steelers have 24.
Scheme and front office continuity are big factors in their success. I really hope we can build good long term schemes here, find some level of success and grow from here.
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Legend
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Quote:
I really hope we can build good long term schemes here
You don't build long term schemes.... you simply choose to stop changing them. Something we haven't, yet, tried here.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
At least the roster wasn't gutted this year.
Joshua Cribbs
Emmanuel Acho
Phil Dawson
Eric Hagg
Sheldon Brown
Reggie Hodges
Josh Johnson
Scott Fujita
Mohamed Massaquoi
Chris Gocong
Colt McCoy
Kaluka Maiava
Alex Smith
Juqua Parker
Benjamin Watson
Frostee Rucker
Ray Ventrone
Usama Young
Rest assured folks, I know they were scrubs, has beens, over-the-hillers, and wrong for the system-ers. I was trying to be comical.
Although I still insist that a 33.96% turnover is a gut is a gut is a gut.
Because in reality, although it's said and said over and over that we haven't had an overhaul/roster turnover, when you look at the number and the names, we really have, but to the good............for the most part! 
The only 2 I'd like to have seen here would be Watson and maybe Phil D. Although imo he wanted to go to a SB caliber team and we wanted to get way way ?cheaper?
Let this sink in..... On 12-31-23 it be will 123123.
On the flip side, you can tune a piano but you can't tune-a-fish.
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Legend
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Joshua Cribbs---- Aging but not over the hill but not a long term answer either
Emmanuel Acho----- Nothing special about him
Phil Dawson------We're gonna miss him if we can't score TD's. Not if we can
Eric Hagg---- Nice little player but if you can upgrade (and I think they did) good
Sheldon Brown ----I thought more of him than most, but it was time
Reggie Hodges----He was good before his injury and I think he'll be decent again
Josh Johnson--who?
Scott Fujita-- Retired, he was done
Mohamed Massaquoi-- Showed flashes but we have better on the team now I think
Chris Gocong-- Not sure I understand this move, but not a big deal, we've added talent in his role
Colt McCoy-- I loved Colt. Thought he was a real good kid and still believe he could be good in the NFL with the right system and coach and support around him.
Kaluka Maiava-- Good STer.
Alex Smith-- Looks like they just wanted to get younger
Juqua Parker--I got the feeling he didn't fit and with the talent we have, we don't need him
Benjamin Watson-- I think we have too much unproven talent at TE.. I'd have kept him
Frostee Rucker- See Parker
Ray Ventrone- See Maiava
Usama Young-- Not sure why he was here to begin with
That's just my opinions of course, but I see nothing of major proportions other than possibly Cribbs and probably Dawson.
The point of my little exercise is merely to show that I don't think we lost a lot with the possible exception of the two mentioned directly above.
the thing is, we weren't a good team. We need to add talent which means you have to dump some guys to make room. It's just the natural order of things..
Sometimes it hurts, but the idea is to upgrade every position. If a guy is good at a position and well liked, do you keep him even if you have a chance to upgrade? No, I don't think you do.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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Quote:
I still insist that a 33.96% turnover is a gut is a gut is a gut
well, I disagree. one of them is removing the exterior fat of the gut, while the other is removing critical organs. we have removed the exterior fat this time around.
now, to be fair, there were few critical organs for Heckert to even remove as Mangini got rid of those and didn't replace them (except w/ Mack).
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
I still insist that a 33.96% turnover is a gut is a gut is a gut
well, I disagree. one of them is removing the exterior fat of the gut, while the other is removing critical organs. we have removed the exterior fat this time around.
now, to be fair, there were few critical organs for Heckert to even remove as Mangini got rid of those and didn't replace them (except w/ Mack).
critical organs? who?
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Legend
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Examine other rosters.....you will see similar.....and undertsand with a limited number of roster spots, your using a percentage is pretty misleading....5 players is 10%.
Most of the roster turnover is pinned to other message boards to which I can't link.....you can pull it up....the Titans are at 25%....so that is maybe 2-3 players less than us....hardly a big deal.
Get over it.....it is like this every year if you pay attention.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Legend
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Thomas, Mack, Schwartz, Gordon, Little, Richardson, Taylor, Rubin, DQ, Sheard, Haden, and Ward for returning players.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Thomas, Mack, Schwartz, Gordon, Little, Richardson, Taylor, Rubin, DQ, Sheard, Haden, and Ward for returning players.
"there were few critical organs for Heckert to even remove as Mangini got rid of those and didn't replace them"
and still asking who mangini got rid of??????
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Mangini got rid of KW2, BE, and we made a couple changes along the o and d lines (Mack and the RG and RT positions as well as shipping off Shaun Rogers). I'm almost positive he made some more changes in the offense that I can't remember.
Now THAT was gutting a roster. We swapped out a bunch of starters for draft picks and such. Just the KW2 and BE moves made that a full on teardown. I don't think this off season is anywhere near that. We let go of a bunch of guys that were mostly depth, at the very best. Cribbs would've been nice to keep, but we have guys that are ready to take his place. Benji will be our returner and, get this, he's an actual WR (I mean, for real WR).
Dawson... yeah. Sucks that he's gone. It's not like his contract would've blown away our cap, even if he was being greedy. I'm not sure he wanted to stick around for another reboot while teams interested in having him were contending for super bowls, but who knows.
Brown might've been good to keep around, but I'm not crying that he's gone. We have a lot of potential, and I think it's smart to figure out what we have in these young guys, even if it does cost us a win or two out of the gate.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Lemme try here ....
Joshua Cribbs---- Old, special teams only player whose impact has severely diminished.
Emmanuel Acho----- Drafted for the 4-3, Doesn't really look like an NFL LB in either defense.
Phil Dawson------Hate to see Phil go. However, when your kicker is your MVP, you are in big trouble.
Eric Hagg---- Gone because he wasn't very good. Was handed the job last year, and lost it rapidly.
Sheldon Brown --- Decent 2nd CB. People hated on him, but he did better than many 2nd CBs.
Reggie Hodges----After his Achilles, he was terribly inconsistent. He shanked a lot of punts last year.
Josh Johnson- Backup, backup, to the backup's backup QB.
Scott Fujita-- Done.
Mohamed Massaquoi-- Love his talent, Hate his injuries.
Chris Gocong-- Coming off injury, and Banner got rid of him in Philly. He's horribly overrated by fans here. He was OK, but nowhere neat a difference makes. He's also not an effective pass rusher. He's still waiting for a team to pick him up IIRC.
Colt McCoy-- Vastly overrated by fans here. Nice kid, so-so backup player.
Kaluka Maiava-- Solid on teams and a decent, though unspectacular OLB.
Alex Smith-- Blocking only TE, and wasn't all that good at blocking. The rest of our TE were just really bad by comparison.
Juqua Parker-35 year old backup 4-3 DE on a 3-4 team.
Benjamin Watson-- Old, concussions, but still a solid player. I can see why they moved on though.
Frostee Rucker- 4-3 DE on a 3-4 defense.
Ray Ventrone- Special teams ace who is getting older and older. Tome for the younger aces to replace him.
Usama Young-- had the worst instincts and reactions of any Safety I can recall. He managed some INT because he was so badly out of position. I cannot recall seeing a guy take worse angles in my life. He was really, really bad. He was somewhat a local kid, having gone to Kent State, but unfortunately, he just sucked all around.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Quote:
Quote:
Thomas, Mack, Schwartz, Gordon, Little, Richardson, Taylor, Rubin, DQ, Sheard, Haden, and Ward for returning players.
"there were few critical organs for Heckert to even remove as Mangini got rid of those and didn't replace them"
and still asking who mangini got rid of??????
ah, sorry. misread your last response as to who our current critical organs were.
Mangini got rid of some cancerous organs, but they were indeed critical ones as they were not properly replaced and our offense suffered dramatically.
Winslow and Edwards were our offense with Derek Anderson blindly throwing to them. He pushed them out (again, I do think it was needed, but we suffered short-term from it). Especially, when you add in that guys like Ryan Tucker, Jamal Lewis, Wimbley, Andra Davis were also coming to a close with the team (injuries, age, etc.).
#gmstrong
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