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I have been talking about how it is harder to evaluate collegiate offensive linemen then it used to be. I posted an article on it in the Draft forum. I'm going to start this thread w/a longer, more complete article on the NFL's OL woes. The article is from 2017, but it's a pretty good read.

Quote:
The NFL’s Offensive Line Crisis Has No Single Diagnosis

Why has the league’s on-field product seemed lackluster at times in 2017? Look no further than the deteriorating state of offensive line play—a problem with multiple causes, and no easy solution.

By Robert Mays Nov 2, 2017, 9:26am EDT



The way LeCharles Bentley sees it, the deteriorating quality of offensive line play in the NFL is an epidemic just like any other. Bentley, a former center for the Saints and Browns who now runs his own linemen training facility in Arizona, has watched the level of proficiency at the position group plummet in the past few years, and the search to pinpoint the crisis’s equivalent of patient zero pick up in earnest. “The natural tendency is to identify one potential culprit,” Bentley says. “But there’s always multiple factors that caused it to spread. It’s the same thing we’re seeing right now. Many are trying to look through a keyhole and see an entire hallway.”

Those who are involved with offensive linemen in the NFL—from current and former players to coaches to executives—admit that the league is approaching a crossroads at the position. A shortage of effective linemen has affected the way offenses function, and blocking struggles have been the worst offender in creating the lackluster product on display at times during the first half of the 2017 season. Scoring league-wide has dropped from an average of 22.8 points per game last season to 21.9 in the first half of this fall, and teams are scoring fewer touchdowns per game (2.38) than they have since 2006. A collapse in offensive line quality has played a major role, and every expert has a pet theory for how it happened.

The rise of the spread offense in college football is a common villain, as many say that young linemen are entering the league less prepared than they’ve ever been. The limitations placed on team practice time under the new collective bargaining agreement is another. The truth is that the NFL’s state of offensive line emergency is likely the byproduct of several factors whose effects have all been exacerbated by the presence of the others. The evaluation and development of offensive linemen are being hit hard from several angles, and the cumulative impact has been devastating.

By exploring all of the influences and how they relate to one another, it may be possible to figure out how to combat them—and improve what we see on the field on Sundays.

Over the past few years, the spread offense has been stuck with a reputation as the NFL’s boogeyman, to the point that its proliferation in the college game has begun to feel like a tired excuse for failings at the professional level. Yet while teams across the league try to incorporate more spread concepts into their offenses, the approach’s effect on the development of young linemen has grown impossible to ignore. “It’s building block stuff,” Falcons offensive line coach Chris Morgan says of the deficiencies he sees in incoming linemen. “Now, there’s a little bit steeper of a curve with the stuff that used to be givens. You’re talking about guys hearing plays in a huddle, breaking a huddle, getting into a three-point stance, working combination blocks. You’re farther away than you used to be in terms of reps banked.”


The college game has started to move at such a rapid pace that it can barely resemble the sport played in the NFL. In January’s national championship game, for example, Clemson beat Alabama by running a whopping 99 plays from scrimmage; in last week’s thrilling 41-38 victory against the Texans, the Seahawks ran just 64. This trend has stunted the progression of linemen from a technical standpoint—guys in spread offenses constantly line up in a two-point stance, almost regardless of the situation—and, more crucially, it’s eliminated the complexity that’s long been inherent to line play. By operating at such a ridiculously fast clip, college offenses have negated the importance of the blockers up front making specific identifications and picking up intricate blitzes, which are skills that continue to be vital in the pros.

“If you’re running a spread offense in the college game, almost nothing translates to the NFL,” former NFL offensive linemen and current SiriusXM and SB Nation analyst Geoff Schwartz says. “You’re running at such a high tempo that teams aren’t going to twist and blitz because you’re moving so fast. Defenders are so tired.”

Titans general manager Jon Robinson says that the goal of many college practices is “going for quantity,” with teams using that time as a way to hone their ability to move lightning fast come game day. To wit: When Schwartz played at Oregon under then-first-year offensive coordinator Chip Kelly, he says that watching practice film had almost no value. The scout team could barely line up before the ball was snapped. And while college coaches doing their best Ricky Bobby impression is outrageously fun to watch, it’s caused linemen to lack technical skills and knowledge of schemes and protections that would allow them to smoothly transition from the NCAA to the pros.

As schematic differences have muddied both evaluation and development of college players, finding young linemen who have a baseline skill set has become more difficult. Figuring out which schools those players come from, though, has become increasingly apparent. A disproportionate number of starting NFL offensive linemen in recent years have come from a small collection of programs, and the percentage of quality linemen to emerge from that group is staggering. Wisconsin, for instance, has produced six starting NFL linemen in a pool of 160 players, including a pair of players (Kevin Zeitler and Rick Wagner) who reset the market at right guard and right tackle this offseason, a future Hall of Famer (Joe Thomas), and maybe the top center in football (Travis Frederick). Iowa boasts guys like Marshal Yanda, Bryan Bulaga, and Brandon Scherff, while Notre Dame counts Ronnie Stanley, Zack Martin, and his young brother, Nick.

Gleaning how these schools (and others like Ohio State and Stanford) have consistently churned out quality linemen comes down to a simple premise: By giving young players experience lining up in three-point stances and—in several of these cases, but not all—heavier formations that resemble those in the NFL, these schools move players further along in their development than most of their peers. Their education about what it takes to make it in the league doesn’t start from scratch. And given the barriers coaches now face in developing players after they’ve been drafted, the idea of finding linemen with strong starting points has become more attractive than ever.


The 2011 CBA restrictions that were placed on practice time have been a constant topic of league-wide conversation through the past few years. The area where that lack of practice shows up most noticeably is in the performances of offensive linemen, who aren’t even permitted to line up across from each other—with or without pads—during spring conditioning programs. “The way you fit blocks is different, the way you strike and punch,” Morgan says. “You can still work those things, but it’s like anything else—the less you do of it … you’ve got to really monitor the quality.” Limits on practice were instituted as a means of improving player safety, a worthwhile endeavor that’s unfortunately had a few unintended side effects.

According to Schwartz, the CBA change that’s most significantly hindered effective line play has been the ban on two-a-day practices during training camp. The offensive line is the only position group whose players literally have to work in step with teammates on every snap. Linemen are most successful when they innately know the habits and tics of players aligned next to them, and when they don’t get the reps needed to build that kind of rapport, the lack of familiarity eventually shows down the road. Schwartz cites a simple inside zone run with the right guard and the right tackle running a combination block on a defensive tackle lined up as a two-technique (directly over the guard) as an example. On the first time this play is run, the pair might botch the block. On the second, they might correct the mistake. On the third, the tackle could shift into a different gap. “That’s three separate plays,” Schwartz says. “We had a double-team we screwed up, we came back and fixed it, and all of a sudden, he moved. The fourth time, there’s a [defensive] pressure. The fifth time, the guys twist.”

When teams were allowed to have two practices per day in camp, there was adequate time for offensive lines to cycle through every possible variation and wrinkle that a defense could present—not only identifying it, but also facilitating an understanding of how the players would respond in real time. The same held true for linemen planning to stop blitzes or stunts in pass protection. “You don’t get as many reps anymore,” Schwartz says, “so I think when guys get to the game, a lot of players are surprised by movement and the things that happen.”

As the development of young players has become less reliable, teams’ desire to have veteran offensive line talent has naturally increased. And with this year’s draft almost entirely devoid of plug-and-play offensive line starters, needy front offices were pushed to the free-agent market and forced to pay 110 cents on the dollar as a result of overwhelming demand. Trying to keep tabs on the movement of 2017 free-agent linemen felt similar to watching an elaborate shell game. Top-end starters swapped jobs all over the league. After signing Rick Wagner as their new right tackle, the Lions let Riley Reiff walk; Reiff replaced Matt Kalil as the Vikings left tackle; Kalil signed a massive deal in Carolina, the team that the Vikings new right tackle Mike Remmers played for last season; T.J. Lang came to Detroit to be the new right guard; and the guy he replaced, Larry Warford, signed in New Orleans.


For some of the teams that tried to replace veterans with young, highly drafted replacements, the results have been disastrous. The Bengals balked at the thought of making Zeitler the NFL’s highest-paid guard or paying a premium to retain 35-year-old Pro Bowl left tackle Andrew Whitworth this spring; Cincinnati currently ranks 30th in the league in adjusted sack rate, and both Jake Fisher and Cedric Ogbuehi haven’t looked like anything close to long-term answers up front. So far, the Cowboys have failed to replace the production of left guard Ronald Leary, who cashed in with the Broncos in March. With so much uncertainty surrounding the futures of each individual lineman, even the best-laid plans can go awry, which makes the background and experience of free-agent options all the more appealing.

Acquiring veterans has eliminated team concerns about how well players can grasp fronts, identify Mike linebackers, and protect. But this free-agency frenzy also has a drawback: Each seasoned player comes to his new home with habits and terminology learned elsewhere. “An offensive line is kind of like a marching band,” says Larry Zierlein, an assistant line coach for the Cardinals. “Everybody’s got to do it in step. [With free agents], you’ve got one guy doing a technique you learned in Baltimore, another guy doing a technique he learned in Dallas, and another guy doing something else.” Zierlein says it’s rare to see a starting five stay intact for more than a season or two these days. As the demand for free-agent linemen increases, so will player movement, ensuring a yearly game of musical chairs.

Therein lies the challenge in fixing the league’s offensive line problem: Every solution seemingly creates another issue.

One of the most confusing elements of the league’s offensive line crisis is how this shortage of quality linemen has coincided with the NFL’s athletes being better than ever before. “I think that’s where some of the mystery is coming in,” Bentley says. “Across the board, we have bigger, faster, stronger players, but the quality of [line] play has definitely decreased. I think now is the time when people have to start recognizing that [playing well on the] offensive line isn’t just about [being] a high-level athlete. It’s about being a high-level craftsman first.”

The size and speed of players around the league continues to increase, but that’s less impactful on the offensive line than it is at any other position besides kicker and punter. Because a majority of the skills that determine success are learned, the benefits that come from having significant athletic advantages are mitigated. “It’s such a technical position,” Robinson says. “You can’t just be big, move to the left, move to the right, and move straight ahead and be effective. It’s hand placement, it’s body coordination, and it’s playing with good power angles.”


Further amplifying this problem is the set of players that offensive linemen are tasked with stopping. The benefits bestowed upon ludicrously athletic defensive linemen fall on the polar opposite of the spectrum. While the nuances of pass rushing are often understated, it remains a skill in which a rare combination of quickness and bulk can make up for a host of other blemishes. The uptick in physical gifts for defenders up front means that interdimensional beings like Myles Garrett and Jadeveon Clowney have entered the NFL. Even more problematic for offensive linemen is the sheer number of potential game wreckers who can be on the field at any one time.

The league’s premier defenses have gone from having one—or two, if they’re lucky—dominant rushers to trotting out three or four all at once. When the Jaguars can line up Calais Campbell and Malik Jackson on the inside while rushing Dante Fowler Jr. and Yannick Ngakoue off the edge, they present a terrifying prospect for opposing offensive lines. Deep, varied rotations in the front four mean offensive linemen have to be ready to handle a constant barrage of blitzes; with defensive coordinators constantly tweaking their alignments and moving guys to different spots along the line, it becomes only a matter of time before the weaknesses detailed above are exposed.

Zierlein points to Arizona’s Week 9 opponent, the 49ers, as a case study in what offensive lines are dealing with in 2017. San Francisco features a trio of former first-round picks on the defensive line: DeForest Buckner, Arik Armstead, and Solomon Thomas. “They will find a matchup. If they think your left guard is your weakest pass blocker, they’ll take their [best pass rusher] and put him inside. They don’t have to just be a tackle or an end. They’re looking for matchups.”

When a defense establishes that upper hand even briefly, it reveals one of the key distinctions between the realities of playing on each side of the line. “If you got one sack every game as a D-linemen, you’re a Hall of Famer,” Schwartz says. “If you give up on sack every game as an offensive linemen, that’s your last season playing.”


There was plenty to like about Jack Conklin going into the 2016 NFL draft, but Robinson says that what ultimately convinced the Titans to take the Michigan State product eighth overall was fairly straightforward. “When you put the tape on, it’s pretty simple: He blocked his guy,” Robinson says. “At the end of the day, that’s the most important thing for an offensive lineman. Whoever you’re supposed to block, you block him. It may not always look pretty. He may not look like the world’s best ballroom dancer out there, but he got on his guy, and he blocked him.”

This may sound like common sense rationale, but it sheds light on one final problem teams have encountered when trying to locate quality offensive linemen. Some of the worst draft misfires in recent years have come when high picks have been spent on offensive linemen whose vast potential has made it easy to overlook their fundamental deficiencies. The best example might be Lions tackle Greg Robinson, who was taken no. 2 overall by the Rams in 2014. Evaluators and coaches fell in love with Robinson’s size, strength, and mobility dating back to his days at Auburn, but that didn’t mean he was ready to be a consistent presence in the NFL. The same goes for the Giants’ Ereck Flowers, who’s disappointed in three pro seasons after being selected ninth overall out of Miami in 2015.

There’s no denying that a ridiculous athletic profile is a component of some of the league’s best offensive linemen, especially at tackle. Lane Johnson, Joe Thomas, and Tyron Smith are three of the best athletes in the history of the position. The problem for offensive linemen, though, is that having that kind of uncommon athleticism is better served in helping a player reach his ceiling than in establishing an acceptable baseline for performance. As the league struggles to hone the skills of its offensive linemen—in part because of their background in spread offenses, in part because of their accrued lack of practice time, and in part because of myriad other factors—Bentley feels that it’s essential for teams to seek out players with projectable traits, even if those traits don’t necessarily blow people away. “[Coaches say], ‘I can’t develop this player,’” Bentley says. “Fine. At least [the traits that] I have on film from college are based on an identifiable, transferable skill set that at minimum is going to show up in the NFL. And in that reality, you usually have a player that can keep his head above water.”

The challenge for coaches and evaluators becomes determining which skills are transferable without much development. Bentley thinks this starts by examining the simplest stuff, like a player’s pre-snap stance, before then evaluating his understanding of angles and leverage. Zierlein primarily values intelligence, and not the kind that players can show by working on a white board. He wants to know how surprised offensive linemen will be when they’re presented with opposing twists and blitzes.

For Bentley, solving the game’s most glaring positional crisis has become about learning how to deal with the factors that have created it. “[Coaches] are never getting back more time,” Bentley says, “and they shouldn’t!” It’s up to decision-makers across the league to discern what type of players represent the best bets, and the stakes for getting that right are high: The quality of line play goes a long way in determining how much exciting offense appears on TV every Sunday. Other than unearthing a dozen great young quarterbacks, the NFL’s best path to avoiding unwatchable football is to create a larger pool of serviceable offensive linemen. It’s that pursuit that may have front offices changing what they look for at the position.

“Everyone’s on the market for a new car, and everyone has budgets for a Maserati,” Bentley says. “But the problem is when you’re trying a build a player and [considering] the climate we’re doing it in, putting a Bentley or a Maserati on a dirt road isn’t exactly the best way to go about it.”


https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2017/11/2/16596392/offensive-line-crisis-league-midseason


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Do you think that it will become easier for teams who run much more RPO and zone read type offenses to evaluate OL than it is for teams running more pro-style type offenses?


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This is why I’m a tad nervous about drafting an OL early. In the past, this was a “safe” pick ... but now it’s more of a gamble


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I'm not sure, but it certainly seems like it would. I was actually thinking about those two things when I was reading various articles on this.

Good call on your part.

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I don't think the type of offenses they run will actually change anything. It's the complex defenses they face, the way they have to work in unison is where the bulk of the problem lies.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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I think you are right in what you are saying, but I get YTown's question. Think about it....the collegiate spread offenses have their linemen in 2-point stances almost all of the time and they are asked to occupy space or "area" instead of doing man/base blocking. That is similar to the RPO and/or Zone blocking schemes.

So, I think you are both correct.

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I understand the question, but how does any of that change the complex defense they now face in the NFL and the lack of reps it takes to work as a complete unit?

You need those reps and that continuity to face today's NFL D's and no matter the O you are running, I really don't see that part of it changing. Chip Kelly figured that out pretty quick.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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I'm probably going to get flack for this, but I read that article and kept thinking, "yep, Mekhi Becton."
Still hoping the Giants take him so I don't have to worry about it. smile

Wills is still the most technically proficient tackle in the draft IMO, but he may not be able to transition to LT.


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I would think you would have to take the OL that is the most technically sound or the most athletic so they will be able to transition better to the pros. Strength can be worked on if they are deficient in that respect.

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I don't intend to turn this into a pro/anti Becton thread but I don't think Becton has been stunted by operating from the spread. I do think he displays some basic ability you can hang your hat on as mentioned in Bentley's quotes.

Read this link for additional information about his on-field experience.

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Maybe the NFL needs to catch up with what the colleges are doing?

The NFL was the innovator for a long time. Today, college is where the innovation takes place. It is what it is. College and HS coaches don't have the time to develop players for the NFL. Screw the NFL. They are trying to win games to keep their paycheck rolling.

The college game and the NFL are different. The NFL is slowly coming around when it comes to QB. They are going to have to adjust for Oline as well.

On O, 99 plays is better than 68 plays. More plays give you more chances to score.

The NFL needs to do one of two things. Either adjust to what colleges are running or start a actual farm system and quit depending on colleges to supply NFL ready players.

Colleges aren't doing that anymore. NFL football is getting stale compared to the college game. College coaches making big money aren't going to run "pro-set" just because the NFL desires that.

NFL coaches need to start running "college-set". Problem solved.

I love the Browns, but to be honest, I would rather head to Gainesville to use some of my seats to watch the Gators. I have 4 seats. My best friend buys them from me minus any I want to keep. We have 8 together. He can use them for business purposes.


The NFL needs to adapt. They are, but it is slow.

In the end, college football is way better. Atmosphere, rivalry, pace of play, women in the stands...LOL

It's more fun.


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I know the cba has strict limits on what teams can require of their players, but I wonder the browns could encourage their starting o line to attend the line camp Bentley runs. A chance to learn and get reps together. Team pays of course and naturally it would be voluntary. But it would make us a better team come football season.

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Originally Posted By: keithfromxenia
I know the cba has strict limits on what teams can require of their players, but I wonder the browns could encourage their starting o line to attend the line camp Bentley runs. A chance to learn and get reps together. Team pays of course and naturally it would be voluntary. But it would make us a better team come football season.


That is a pretty good idea. I never thought of that. Good addition.

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Problem being college players don't play against NFL type defenses either. The talent and speed of pass rush specialists and more complex and disguised defenses seem to be more where the problem is. Dumbing down your OL will only cause defenses to tear up NFL QB's.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Problem being college players don't play against NFL type defenses either. The talent and speed of pass rush specialists and more complex and disguised defenses seem to be more where the problem is. Dumbing down your OL will only cause defenses to tear up NFL QB's.




They play against them in college. Most people are faster when younger Even 5-6 years.

Most people are faster when younger that older.


Fast defenders came out of the SEC back in the day. So did the spread type O to counter.


I am not arguing, complaining, or anything else. I am just saying the game of football has evolved, and the NFL is lagging in that evolution.

They want to keep playing their game, but they keep getting players who don't play that game.


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I think you are mistaken if you think the NFL hasn't evolved. I was hoping we could talk about OL play, but oh well...

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Anyway...........

We talk about the OL all the time on here. I posted this article because it contains a ton of information about the possible causes for poor OL play.

I know the article was long and that a lot of people didn't want to dedicate the time to read it, but there was a lot of good stuff in there.

In addition to the differences in the college vs pro game, there were things about technique, the Collective Bargaining Agreement, the size and speed of defenders, the lack of continuity on most OLs, not being able to practice enough, etc.

I coached the OL when I first started off. I'm telling you that no unit is more dependent on reps, cohesion, and continuity than the OL.

I think this could be a good football conversation and I don't see the need for someone to call the OP of a thread a troll for wanting to keep the thread on track.

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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
I think you are mistaken if you think the NFL hasn't evolved. I was hoping we could talk about OL play, but oh well...


I would be interested in reading more about how/whether the NFL has 'evolved' regarding OL play. I usually learn a lot when that debate is healthy and extensive. thumbsup

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We have a hard time communicating. I meant the NFL has evolved in terms of overall football. It's just that some things that work in college don't work in the pros because the players are so much faster and stronger.

I will gladly start a thread, or peen can, about whether or not the pros or colleges have evolved more.

I was just hoping we could talk about the OL on this thread. I wasn't mad at peen. The OL is always a big conversation point around here, so I thought it might be cool to delve a bit deeper into the topic.

Then again.......maybe not. LOL

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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
We have a hard time communicating. I meant the NFL has evolved in terms of overall football. It's just that some things that work in college don't work in the pros because the players are so much faster and stronger.

I will gladly start a thread, or peen can, about whether or not the pros or colleges have evolved more.

I was just hoping we could talk about the OL on this thread. I wasn't mad at peen. The OL is always a big conversation point around here, so I thought it might be cool to delve a bit deeper into the topic.

Then again.......maybe not. LOL


Fair enough.

As I read that I think Peen was making a similar point to yours that I bolded above. I think he is making that same/similar claim.

I think this is the prefect thread to delve into the details about the difficulty of evaluating OL prospects in today's environment.

I'll add to that that to my unknowing-eye, evaluating OL prospects has always proven to be quite the guessing game...it just seems to me that there is still quite the guessing game in that regard...but the game has changed.

If that makes any sense.

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Originally Posted By: Ballpeen
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Problem being college players don't play against NFL type defenses either. The talent and speed of pass rush specialists and more complex and disguised defenses seem to be more where the problem is. Dumbing down your OL will only cause defenses to tear up NFL QB's.




They play against them in college. Most people are faster when younger Even 5-6 years.

Most people are faster when younger that older.


Fast defenders came out of the SEC back in the day. So did the spread type O to counter.


I am not arguing, complaining, or anything else. I am just saying the game of football has evolved, and the NFL is lagging in that evolution.

They want to keep playing their game, but they keep getting players who don't play that game.


Except what's the first thing every rookie says when asked about their first year?

Everyone is so much faster.


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Originally Posted By: DevilDawg2847
Originally Posted By: Ballpeen
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Problem being college players don't play against NFL type defenses either. The talent and speed of pass rush specialists and more complex and disguised defenses seem to be more where the problem is. Dumbing down your OL will only cause defenses to tear up NFL QB's.




They play against them in college. Most people are faster when younger Even 5-6 years.

Most people are faster when younger that older.


Fast defenders came out of the SEC back in the day. So did the spread type O to counter.


I am not arguing, complaining, or anything else. I am just saying the game of football has evolved, and the NFL is lagging in that evolution.

They want to keep playing their game, but they keep getting players who don't play that game.


Except what's the first thing every rookie says when asked about their first year?

Everyone is so much faster.


I agree with you. Doesn't that go for every position though?

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Alright........I will start off w/a short little thing and see how it goes. If the conversation remains about football and OL play/evaluation, I will add more. And I am always open to questions.

The thing I see, and most folks who know OL play see, is that blocking in the NFL is much more difficult than blocking in college spread offenses.

In those spread college offenses, the O-linemen are almost always in a 2-pt stance. They are not asked to block a "man." They are are told to go to a space, or as coaches say, an "area." Area blocking is huge. Those guys are acting like a shield, if that makes sense. They move to an area and are non-aggressive.

In the NFL, ZBS can also be very effective. See Shanny and his dad. However............and this is vitally important......NFL players are far more talented than collegiate players in terms of speed and strength. Thus, in addition to blocking in areas, you also have to win match-ups because the defenders can knock your block off and/or run around you in an instant.

That is where it is hard to evaluate collegiate offensive linemen. Can they do both? It's really hard to tell.

No one is saying that it's the job of colleges to prepare players for the NFL. That would be dumb. Colleges need to take care of themselves. The argument is that because colleges are not a minor league [see MLB] for the NFL, it's become increasingly hard to evaluate two position groups. One, is the OL. The other are QBs. The latter is for another discussion.

If anyone is interested, I can talk about playing w/your hands in the dirt next. Or technique. Those are both vitally important. Of course, I will answer questions about what I just said in this post or honestly debate the talking points.

I just don't want to get into the personal stuff.

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Quote:

Everyone is so much faster.


This is an important point when considering collegiate spread offenses go to a "space" and occupy it. That crap don't work against most NFL guys.

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Originally Posted By: WSU Willie
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
We have a hard time communicating. I meant the NFL has evolved in terms of overall football. It's just that some things that work in college don't work in the pros because the players are so much faster and stronger.

I will gladly start a thread, or peen can, about whether or not the pros or colleges have evolved more.

I was just hoping we could talk about the OL on this thread. I wasn't mad at peen. The OL is always a big conversation point around here, so I thought it might be cool to delve a bit deeper into the topic.

Then again.......maybe not. LOL


Fair enough.

As I read that I think Peen was making a similar point to yours that I bolded above. I think he is making that same/similar claim.

I think this is the prefect thread to delve into the details about the difficulty of evaluating OL prospects in today's environment.

I'll add to that that to my unknowing-eye, evaluating OL prospects has always proven to be quite the guessing game...it just seems to me that there is still quite the guessing game in that regard...but the game has changed.

If that makes any sense.


Vers and Willie,

I've questioned this before, perhaps you guys can offer a little insight/opinion... how much of the difficulty in assessing and transitioning is due to unrealistic expectations? Each position along the line requires its own specific skill set. So specific in fact that its not a simple matter of just flipping from side to the other.

Yet I feel like there's constant talk about versatility and assumptions that a guy can play multiple positions. I'd hope that as you lay longer in the League you could develop additional skill sets and we've seen how you can move some guys around when someone goes down. But how how may careers are hamstrung because a team drafts a guy who is said to have the potential/ability to play multiple positions, and splits his reps between those positions versus identifying one position to fully concentrate on first?

There really is no other area on the roster where we acquire guys and say "hey, this guy could play X, if not then Y, and if not then Z" and then split their reps their first year in the League. We may see a little mixing at DT/DE or DE/OLB, but I feel like even in those situations they are viewed with a more critical eye and a more tempered expectation.

I guess in summation my question could be: is it that the identification part is difficult, or could it be a lack or proper (focused) player development?


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Good question and you make a lot of sense. I kinda want to hold off on that one a bit, but if this thread evolves, I will get to it.

I don't want to blow you off, though. Think back to the part of the article about the Collective Bargaining Agreement and how it limits how often teams can practice. Again, no unit is more dependent on reps than the OL. I know that sounds odd to most fans, but I'm telling you that it is true.

Keith brought up a great point earlier about asking o-linemen to work out w/Bentley. I will add working out w/any OL coach in the off-season. I have been adamant that Baker should work out w/a qb coach in the off-season and the same goes for other positions.

Listen, technique is huge for an offensive lineman. I hope we can talk about that in the near future. I am HUGE on technique. So is Joe Thomas and he was the best who ever did it in regards to technique. You are playing chess against dudes who only play checkers. Anyway..........I think it would be a great idea for offensive linemen to find guys like Bentley and work out w/them during the off-season.

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Originally Posted By: DevilDawg2847
Originally Posted By: WSU Willie
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
We have a hard time communicating. I meant the NFL has evolved in terms of overall football. It's just that some things that work in college don't work in the pros because the players are so much faster and stronger.

I will gladly start a thread, or peen can, about whether or not the pros or colleges have evolved more.

I was just hoping we could talk about the OL on this thread. I wasn't mad at peen. The OL is always a big conversation point around here, so I thought it might be cool to delve a bit deeper into the topic.

Then again.......maybe not. LOL


Fair enough.

As I read that I think Peen was making a similar point to yours that I bolded above. I think he is making that same/similar claim.

I think this is the prefect thread to delve into the details about the difficulty of evaluating OL prospects in today's environment.

I'll add to that that to my unknowing-eye, evaluating OL prospects has always proven to be quite the guessing game...it just seems to me that there is still quite the guessing game in that regard...but the game has changed.

If that makes any sense.


Vers and Willie,

I've questioned this before, perhaps you guys can offer a little insight/opinion... how much of the difficulty in assessing and transitioning is due to unrealistic expectations? Each position along the line requires its own specific skill set. So specific in fact that its not a simple matter of just flipping from side to the other.

Yet I feel like there's constant talk about versatility and assumptions that a guy can play multiple positions. I'd hope that as you lay longer in the League you could develop additional skill sets and we've seen how you can move some guys around when someone goes down. But how how may careers are hamstrung because a team drafts a guy who is said to have the potential/ability to play multiple positions, and splits his reps between those positions versus identifying one position to fully concentrate on first?

There really is no other area on the roster where we acquire guys and say "hey, this guy could play X, if not then Y, and if not then Z" and then split their reps their first year in the League. We may see a little mixing at DT/DE or DE/OLB, but I feel like even in those situations they are viewed with a more critical eye and a more tempered expectation.

I guess in summation my question could be: is it that the identification part is difficult, or could it be a lack or proper (focused) player development?



That question/point is VERY interesting...and waaaay over my OL eval pay grade. thumbsup

I take my cousin to one game a year - he and his son were BOTH OL in their younger days. He wears me out with things I should see on the OL - but I struggle to do so.

It's ridiculous how much more he - and others on this board - see/understand what the hell is going on along the OL than I can see.

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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Alright........I will start off w/a short little thing and see how it goes. If the conversation remains about football and OL play/evaluation, I will add more. And I am always open to questions.

The thing I see, and most folks who know OL play see, is that blocking in the NFL is much more difficult than blocking in college spread offenses.

In those spread college offenses, the O-linemen are almost always in a 2-pt stance. They are not asked to block a "man." They are are told to go to a space, or as coaches say, an "area." Area blocking is huge. Those guys are acting like a shield, if that makes sense. They move to an area and are non-aggressive.

In the NFL, ZBS can also be very effective. See Shanny and his dad. However............and this is vitally important......NFL players are far more talented than collegiate players in terms of speed and strength. Thus, in addition to blocking in areas, you also have to win match-ups because the defenders can knock your block off and/or run around you in an instant.

That is where it is hard to evaluate collegiate offensive linemen. Can they do both? It's really hard to tell.

No one is saying that it's the job of colleges to prepare players for the NFL. That would be dumb. Colleges need to take care of themselves. The argument is that because colleges are not a minor league [see MLB] for the NFL, it's become increasingly hard to evaluate two position groups. One, is the OL. The other are QBs. The latter is for another discussion.

If anyone is interested, I can talk about playing w/your hands in the dirt next. Or technique. Those are both vitally important. Of course, I will answer questions about what I just said in this post or honestly debate the talking points.

I just don't want to get into the personal stuff.


Ok. I am trying to keep up here. What I can't yet reconcile in my mind is that the supply of players from college are-what-they-are. They are playing in these funky offenses that - rightfully - don't give a darn about preparing players for the NFL.

So...whether those funky offenses are the future in the NFL, how in the world can anyone - those knowing of OL talent or not - figure out how a guy translates to the NFL?

I personally like the NFL way more than college...although I spend waaaay too much time watching both. This 'evolving' thing is very intriguing to me...with the caveat that I'm not much for evaluating OL play under any scheme or level.

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Quote:
So...whether those funky offenses are the future in the NFL, how in the world can anyone - those knowing of OL talent or not - figure out how a guy translates to the NFL?


I did not mean to imply the college offenses were funky. Perhaps that is where the disconnect came from. I think they are innovative offenses and the NFL has incorporated many facets of those offenses into theirs. They have been doing it for year and Belichick as among the first, if not the first.

There is a ton of good stuff in those offenses. The NFL uses those things and Baltimore is a great example, But, I think all teams have evolved and learned from those systems.

My contention is that you just can't switch to such an offense 100 per cent because of the huge discrepancy in talent. In the NFL, you have to mix things up. Being one-dimensional is career suicide. That is why I said the NFL has evolved.


Quote:

I personally like the NFL way more than college...although I spend waaaay too much time watching both. This 'evolving' thing is very intriguing to me...with the caveat that I'm not much for evaluating OL play under any scheme or level.


This is 100 per cent opinion, but I love both the NFL and college football. I love high school football. I just love football. This is a Brown's board, so I talk more about the NFL, but rest assured, I love the college game just as much.

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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Good question and you make a lot of sense. I kinda want to hold off on that one a bit, but if this thread evolves, I will get to it.

I don't want to blow you off, though. Think back to the part of the article about the Collective Bargaining Agreement and how it limits how often teams can practice. Again, no unit is more dependent on reps than the OL. I know that sounds odd to most fans, but I'm telling you that it is true.

Keith brought up a great point earlier about asking o-linemen to work out w/Bentley. I will add working out w/any OL coach in the off-season. I have been adamant that Baker should work out w/a qb coach in the off-season and the same goes for other positions.

Listen, technique is huge for an offensive lineman. I hope we can talk about that in the near future. I am HUGE on technique. So is Joe Thomas and he was the best who ever did it in regards to technique. You are playing chess against dudes who only play checkers. Anyway..........I think it would be a great idea for offensive linemen to find guys like Bentley and work out w/them during the off-season.


No worries, I know this is a multi-faceted subject.

I agree that technique is absolutely paramount. Back in the day I was a 4 year varsity wrestler ranked near the top of our district. I wasn't the fastest, or the strongest, but where I excelled was my technique. I think Joe T has even admitted he was by far the strongest of O Lineman.. but it was his technique that helped him handle all those defenders.

It is interesting to see that the NFL has evolved although I'm not sure if it was as a willing participant or due to not having any real choice as fewer and fewer college players were NFL ready. You guys may have a different recollection but I feel like there was a lot of resistance in general to NFL teams emulating or incorporating college elements up until maybe we saw Miami and the Wildcat. I know the Wildcat wasn't a college thing, but I think seeing it being used loosened up a lot of the traditional football stiffs. If that makes sense? It kind of showed them that its ok to deviate from the "norm". I could be wrong though.


I wish I could weigh in more on the college game. I just don't have much time to devote to it.


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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
My contention is that you just can't switch to such an offense 100 per cent because of the huge discrepancy in talent. In the NFL, you have to mix things up. Being one-dimensional is career suicide. That is why I said the NFL has evolved.


That really helps me clear up your thoughts on the matter...I was simply not connecting those dots.

I remain almost befuddled at how so many OL evaluations 'miss'. Everyone was saying that Joe Thomas was going to be great...and they were correct. Everyone said that Tony Mandarich was going to be a stud...and he was anything but.

So...it's not the names and how they turned out that befuddles me here...I understand that the transition to the NFL is very difficult to gauge. But what made the 'sure things' sure...and why did other 'sure things' flop?

I'd like to better understand what is important to examine when evaluating these guys. Joe Thomas has always played-down his athletic prowess to more direct attention to technique. But he is a large, strong, agile guy too.

Since all these guys are big, strong guys, it seems to me that technique is critical to making it in the league at OL - shoot, probably everywhere in the NFL. But a novice like myself rarely reads about a prospect's ability regarding his technique.

To my recollection, I believe that I read about technique most-often when reading about a prospect who has 'good' technique but lacks agility/functional-strength/etc. I rarely recollect reading where 'technique' was touted in the ranking of an NFL draft prospect (meaning rating one guy higher than another) or even an evaluation of a current NFL player. I am left to conclude that technique is very important/critical, but it doesn't get talked-about as/so much because most people - myself included - either don't really know what 'technique' really means or simply struggle to see it - again like me.

Add THAT ^ to the way the college game has changed since I started following football nearly 50 years ago and I still sometimes feel that evaluating OLs from college to NFL is still like throwing a dart.

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Everything Evolves, These young men are coming in more Athletic than ever before I think this is going change soon as we were producing more and more Interior OL men but not Edge OL (OTs). This is the first wave of honest to good OTs. Not double digits but close to it. If we can fill the void with consistent candidates coming up every year.

There definitely was a void. But more than ever that elusive LT is one of the most rare positions to be filled with proper candidates. This 2020 class I think is probably the strongest OT class, EVER!

It won't make up for the years of mediocre LT candidates.
Any of the top 4 taken will not be a reach pick as all 4 are good candidates even though a couple are not as ready to play as one would want. But if memory serves me LT has always been a tough position to fill. I just think in the past years teams have over evaluated the talent available and made them reach picks where they should be going in the 2nd - 4th rounds but end up being taken in the first round.

jmho...we are ready to take the first wave of excellent OT play!


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JMHO, few of us have ever been OL coaches, most just watch the games and comment. Even the best "evaluators"- like our previous GM who was drafting "real players" hosed us with his Nevada OL pick....why one guy from small school works and another doesn't must be part of the "art" process.
I'm really scared for the Browns, because I don't want the left overs at LT....I'm for drafting SEC and Big Ten lineman because there is speed and then there is SPEED, same with power.

I agree with everything you've written, most of us don't have your knowledge....GO Browns!!!


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Quote:
To my recollection, I believe that I read about technique most-often when reading about a prospect who has 'good' technique but lacks agility/functional-strength/etc. I rarely recollect reading where 'technique' was touted in the ranking of an NFL draft prospect (meaning rating one guy higher than another) or even an evaluation of a current NFL player. I am left to conclude that technique is very important/critical, but it doesn't get talked-about as/so much because most people - myself included - either don't really know what 'technique' really means or simply struggle to see it - again like me.


I am on my lunch break and don't have time to answer properly. I'll get to this this evening. I'll talk about technique and the attributes I look for in offensive linemen. Btw----some of those attributes vary from position to position along the line. I will also say that my opinions on the attributes are not really facts, because beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

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I read a little bit of the start of this thread. I don't think the NFL needs to put itself in a position where it's beholden to college football to teach It's players how to play.
The NFL, could go back to practicing, and teach their own players how to play, or; to play how they want them to play.

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No one is saying that the NFL needs colleges to teach players how to play. I really don't get why people say things like that.

No one is asking anyone to do anything. It's just a fact that it's harder to evaluate OL and QBs now since the Spread has taken over in colleges. That is NOT a complaint. It's simply a fact. No one is asking for colleges to change what they are doing. It's simply harder to evaluate and it's one of the reasons there are more busts w/OL picks than there used to be.

I wanted to get into technique and attributes, but ...

Maybe later.

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Alright..........there is so much to unpack here. I hope I can get this straight. Probably not, though. I'll try and add things as needed. I'm going to try to address technique and attributes because of WSU's question. I might mess this up because while they are two different sets of criteria, I think some of them overlap. Think of a Venn Diagram.

Technique:

Try this yourselves. Get in an athletic stance. For those who don't know what that is, align the outside of your feet w/the outside of your shoulders. Pretend you are playing LT. Move your right foot back about a third of the way back from your left foot. This is key because you want to be able to open up on the speed rush. If your outside foot is forward, it is really hard to open up quickly. If they are totally even, it's a bit slower than if you you stagger your feet a bit. Try all three. Drop your left foot and open up from all 3 alignments. You will quickly see what I mean.

This next part is huge. I showed this to Diam, tab, and some others when we were tailgating before a game. Start w/the footwork from the previous paragraph, Now, bend your knees slightly so your chest is over your thighs. This is a huge key. Chest of thighs. Can't state that enough. Head is upright. Shoulders back and straight. Next, put your arms out in a blocking position. Make sure to keep your elbows in. and pointed downward. Hands up and aligned w/your natural shoulder development. Stay tight.

Now, ask your partner to push you. Then pull you forward. You will see you won't move much. Now, try staggering your feet. Then get too wide of a stance. Then, too narrow. Then, stand upright. Then, lean too far forward.

Ask your partner to try and push and pull you after each position switch. You will soon recognize the importance of a proper stance. It provides strength and maneuverability.

Here is the next thing. It's pretty important in my book. Chop your feet. Stay on the balls of your feet and chop while punching. This allows you to quickly change direction if needed.

This is getting too long. I'll do the attributes later. Sorry WSU. But most folks don't like to read this long of a post. I will answer any questions that folks might have, though.

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That was interesting, though, and it wasn’t too long, but then again, I have an attention span longer than a mosquito’s.


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Quote:
Technique:

Try this yourselves. Get in an athletic stance. For those who don't know what that is, align the outside of your feet w/the outside of your shoulders. Pretend you are playing LT. Move your right foot back about a third of the way back from your left foot. This is key because you want to be able to open up on the speed rush. If your outside foot is forward, it is really hard to open up quickly. If they are totally even, it's a bit slower than if you you stagger your feet a bit. Try all three. Drop your left foot and open up from all 3 alignments. You will quickly see what I mean.


vers...The above example is a bit confusing, imo. I think I know what you are attempting to show, but rather than attempt to figure out what you are attempting to say...

...with this..."Pretend you are playing LT. Move your right foot back about a third of the way back from your left foot." ...

In an attempt to clarify I would simply point out that a LT would move his left foot back about a third of the way from the right foot...

...while a RT would move his right foot back about a third from his left foot.




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