DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Setting the edge

We read a lot about us not being able to set the edge. Maybe some of you football guys have some ideas. It seems to me that if you have players unable to do so on a regular basis, and don't have anybody better on the bench, you need to make some adjustments along your defense. One way or another we have to prevent backs from making the edge and force them to cut back in to the backside pursuit. If backs keep turning the corner, you are elinimating about 2/3 of our defensive players from having a real chance to make a play inside what would be considered allowable yardage.

So, what do you do? I suppose anything you do in so far as adjustments leaves you open in other areas. Do you set your ends a little wide in their splits to encourage a little more between the tackles running? Do you set your OLBs a little wider? Do you commit more out of a safety?

All I know is we have to get backs turining it north and south sooner so we don't eliminate about about 6-7 players on our D from being able to contribute, unless you call contributing taking a angle maybe 30 yards down field to prevent the cutback from happening 20 yards in to the run.

All I know is if you keep seeing 190 lb CBs having to tackle 220-230 lb RBs, running downhill, you will eventually see those CBs carted off the field. Maybe we don't have the requisite talent to run the 3-4 effectively? Maybe we need to run more 4 man fronts?

That might be an option, though I am not sure simply adding another DL in favor of a backer would do much. I am not sure that would widen your front 7 any more then they are now, though I guess that 4-3 are generally better against the run and 3-4 a little better against the pass.

Setting the edge...

Thanks. Always good to see that stuff. I know what it is, my question was in my first post. I am wondering what we can do to help players who don't seem to be able to gain outside containment.

I honestly do not know if our problem here is talent, which it might be, as the video points out, it takes the right mix of physical ability and technique to do this well.

I do wonder though if some of it is trust. If you are going to set the edge and force the rusher back inside, is it possible our DEs/OLBs just don't trust that if they do that, the LB or DT will be there to make the play? This goes to the Patriot's saying, "Do you job." If you are hedging your job because you don't trust those around you to do their job, then everybody will suffer.

j/c

I don't THINK it's strictly a talent (I could be wrong of course) because it seems like EVERY player we have at OLB or DE makes the same "mistake."

Kruger, Mingo, Sheard, etc ... we constantly crash in and leave the edge exposed. If it was a talent thing you'd think one of them would be able to be disciplined/athletic enough to do it.

I'd bet it is more of a scheme of this hybrid defense

Matt wilhelm asked about the scheme and they said something like its not a main emphasis

Kruger bites too hard it seems the bulk load of times he fails to set the edge. Either moving too laterally and providing cut back, or over pursuing and allowing the back to cut it up field.

Orchard in preseason looked totally unable to set any type of edge.

Mingo often gets taken outta the play totally the second anyone is able to get hands on him.

Scott is injured. Coach's gossip indicated he was our best edge setter.

If we don't have the outside backers, then yeah as stated, perhaps we should run more 4-3 formations...

the reason we do not hold the edge is exactly what he says.. our DE crash down and turn their hips perpendicular to the LOS which makes them easier to block / seal off.

We do not maintain good gap integrity. this is the same integrity as wit any gap in the line, you have to stay square to your gap,making yourself as large as you can to fill said hole.

Factor in the OLB also crashing down and our CB's in match up zones and /or man to man and the edge is lost.

As long as our ILB are not stout ( read Kirksey and Robertson in particular) then we will always have to help by leveraging the outside gap in to protect them. That is ok in theory but they need better recognition to cut off the DE 's butt and get to the edge. Their lack of size coupled with their lack of speed / recognition is a recipe for disaster.

Now if you want to protect that failing then you need to widen both DE and OLB... let your DE penetrate a little ( A LITTLE) and then crash down... in theory that would allow for the pushing in of the OL to clog the interior holes and cut back lanes and allowing the OLB a better chance to maintain outside leverage and reducing the area the ILB's need to cover on the edge.

This is what they tried to do some with PT last year, but IMO he never got deep enough and the OT would take a false step, suck him in and then seal him... PT was weak in the lower parts of his legs - probably ankle problems and that did not allow him adequate push or spin to get off that seal

One thing I can say is Bishop Sankey will certainly test that edge this week.

Terrance West will test it too, but we don't need to worry because he doesn't know how to move North-and-South. He'll just "test the edge" all the way to the sideline.

West who had 13 attempts for 41 yards while Crowell and Duke combined for 19 attempts for 42 yards?

I'm really, really hoping West doesn't score or have a couple big gains

In the future, please don't post facts when I'm trying to use hyperbole. Thanks.

I think we will see very little from Sankey. West is fired up and will play like a man possessed!

I think by games end Browns defense will know where they stand defending the run.

I do understand going wide would have to be just a little. I am not talking about going 10 yards, or even 5 yards...I was thinking maybe 2 yards...

Cleveland Browns have invested heavily in outside linebackers and it's time to see a payoff: Tom Reed
Linky dinky

BEREA, Ohio – Here's all you need to know about the Browns' state of affairs at outside linebacker:

They have invested as heavily in the position as any over the past three years, yet find themselves needing to overcome the loss of a fourth-year journeyman who's never started a regular-season game.

Mike Pettine announced Wednesday that Scott Solomon will miss "at least a couple weeks" with an ankle injury. In the same news conference, the coach matter-of-factly made this observation about Barkevious Mingo – the No. 6 overall pick in the 2013 NFL draft.

"To me, he will always be mismatched from a weight standpoint so he has to better with his pad level," Pettine said.

Lost in all the chatter about the Browns' issues at quarterback and skill positions is their lack of quality depth at outside linebacker, one of the most athletic and important positions on the field. Paul Kruger is solid, but after him the club isn't sure on whom it can depend. Coaches hope it's rookie Nate Orchard, the second-round pick expected to make his regular-season debut against the Titans after recovering from a back injury late in training camp.

"I think I can help out a lot, but at the end of the day it takes all 11 (players on the field) to do their job," Orchard said.

Fans bemoan the organization's perceived lack of commitment to finding play-making receivers. The same can't be said about outside linebackers. And yet the club is Mingo-thin in proven players at the vital position group.

Since the start of 2013, they signed Kruger to a five-year, $40 million free-agent deal, drafted Mingo in the first round and Orchard in the second round. Still, the Browns entered the season counting on Solomon – the Titans' seventh-round pick in 2011 -- to get ample reps opposite Kruger. A month ago, they also moved defensive lineman Armonty Bryant – a homegrown 2013 seventh-round pick – to outside linebacker after saying he would only "moonlight" at the position.

Following a subpar first year, Kruger responded with a career-best 11 sacks last season. He had little help in this category from the other outside linebackers, who combined for five. The unit also had difficulty setting the edge – the act of funneling the play back inside against the run. The Browns owned the league's worst rush defense in 2014.

The same problems were apparent in Sunday's 31-10 opening-day loss to Jets. The Browns neither registered a sack nor applied much pressure to quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick. As the game unfurled, they again were gutted by the run as the Jets' amassed 154 yards rushing, most of it coming in the second half.

"I think it was a variety of things," Pettine said of the run-defense woes. "We missed some tackles. Schematically, we got ourselves in less than ideal scenarios, gave up some edges. If I had to pinpoint it, giving up some edges would probably be the No. 1 culprit."

That's not exclusively on the outside backers, depending on the defensive call, but in general terms it's their main responsibility. It's also one of Solomon's strengths – and he was injured after just two snaps Sunday.
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Johnny Manziel prepares to face Titans - Cleveland Browns Berea report Cleveland Browns beat writers Mary Kay Cabot and Tom Reed take a look what happened in Berea during practice on Wednesday, Sept. 16, 2015 as the team begins preparations to play the Tennessee Titans in the home opener at FirstEnergy Stadium. Dave Andersen, Northeast Ohio Media Group

The 240-pound Mingo earned just 13 reps and spent his afternoon primarily dropping into coverage, deflecting one pass. Pettine said the LSU product played "OK," despite a few mistakes.

The 2013 draft is nobody's idea of a great one, especially at edge rusher, but there's no question the Browns expected more. The coaching staff thought enough of him last spring to pass on Khalil Mack, the 2014 fourth-overall pick who appears destined for stardom with the Raiders.

Enter Orchard. The Browns need the 6-foot-4, 255-pounder to deliver. He recorded 18 sacks a season ago at the University of Utah, including a strip sack against Marcus Mariota, who faces the Browns this weekend fresh from a record-setting debut.

The outside backer called the versatile Mariota the best player he faced and spoke of the need for staying in pass-rush lanes to prevent him from getting outside and running. Orchard thinks he's ready for the challenge against the rush.

"It's one of the reasons they brought me here to set that edge and help the run defense before getting to the quarterback," Orchard said. "It's something I loved doing in college."

Bryant remains on the learning curve as he makes the transition from defensive lineman to outside backer.

"My gap used to be right there," Bryant said of the confined area on the line. "Now, my gap runs to the sideline."

Kruger believes the youngsters will thrive with increased responsibility. The Browns need either Orchard and/or Bryant to evolve for their high-priced defense to finally meet expectation.

The franchise has made a massive investment in the group. It's time for a bigger payoff.

I've always hated the 3-4 defense. We don't have the athleticism or talent to execute it. A 4-3 just lets you have athletes run around and it makes things less complicated. Seattle has a very simple defense schematically. Wish we'd run a scheme similar to it. I thought that was what Pettine was going for when he drafted heavy for the secondary.

I have always liked the 3-4, but for this team it seems to me we are better suited to run a 4-3.

I know , I know they all run around screaming Hybrid.. but to me that is a load of crap, a team has a base defense that they want to run and different fronts notwithstanding they should have the people to run that preferred defensive scheme... I don't think they have done a good job getting those people. Having a journey man as a starter on the edge over a 5th pick is testimony to that.

Every time the D fails I drop it at the feet of Pettine personally ! He can/t run from that one ..

LOL.

I find myself thinking the same thing at times. Scrolling through a thread that has 50 new replies in it, just to see those posts quickly turn into playground bickering, then someone throws some actual facts in there. It makes me stop scrolling and think, "Where the hell did THAT come from?" No room for that in here.

Tex, I'll ask this of you, and eotab as well, knowing you both are defensive gurus: Does any team run a 5-man front (hands in the dirt) on a semi-frequent basis? Just asking a question as I know the only dumb question is the one not asked...

I don't like the 3-4, never have. The 3-4 has always been weak against the run. the Steeler's only masked these weakness by having good run support corners/safeties(Rod Woodson, Carnell Lake, Ike Taylor, Troy P) ever notice the only way to really beat the Steelers in the past was through the air? This is why..dick Lebeau actually reversed the weaknesses but this takes very specific personal to do.

the Browns would be better off going back to the Monte Kiffin 4-3 over under defense.

Its easy to learn
Is good against both the run and the pass
Its far easier to find good talent to plug into it and make it work.

this 3-4 just simply isn't working, and if your not running a Lebeau version of it with the right personal to bolster your run weakness its trash against the run. The Browns don't draft bigger strong run support corners, and the only safety we had that was a hammer againsts the run (TJ Ward), we got rid of.

Not that I have ever seen, BB32, doesn't it does not exist.

I will say though with the advent of this zone read I am looking for someone to come up with one... a 5-2-4, with the DE at a wide 7 formation , ( three interior DL ,act like a normal 3-4, with a massive NT), three cb's and one strong safety and the LB's on the outside shoulder of the OT.

I may have to put that to paper this weekend.

I highly disagree. IMO, our biggest weakness against the run to date is setting the outside edge. We know that as fans watching the game and if we know it, opposing HC's know it.

While Sankey isn't known as a dominate RB, what he does possess is the speed and shiftiness to attack the edge. Speed and shiftiness that West simply lacks. I don't believe Whisenhunt is going to ignore the match up that Sankey poses for some revenge game for West.

That's exactly where I was going with my post. Thanks, tex. Much appreciated...