DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Another Manziel Thread

if/when he plays better it will. pretty simple.

He's saying all of the right things, now let's see if he can go out and produce. I just want to see consistent improvement on his part. I'm not expecting him to be a wizard on the field, but I do hope that he's better this week than last.

He just doesn't get it. Those two paragraphs tell me that he hasn't changed much. First he pretty much says the NFL is stupid for not adapting to his backyard style and then he admits that taking off and "improvising" is still a big part of his game.
Hey Johnny, you "make something happen" in the NFL by throwing NFL caliber throws on 3&9, not praying for a 3&short to scramble your way forward. He's still all about the "flash" and still doesn't get that consistency is king in the NFL.

Man, you are so critical. He's still a young guy who's learning. If he had said all the right things, you would have criticized him for being a politician and not being believable. You would have said he still doesn't get it by the way he held his head or stressed certain words. Just when are you ever happy with anything?

However you feel about him, what's so bad about getting behind the kid? Right, wrong, or indifferent, we drafted him and he's a Brown. Why continue to tear him down?

Can we give him more than 4+ games to get it, or do many fans here simply not get how development of a young player works?

you do realize he is a second year vet.

How many games has he played?

he has played in 6 games. started 2

So my question stands, with a whopping 2-game difference from my original question. Can we give him more than 6 games to get it, or do many fans here simply not get how development of a young player works?

Factoring the Lucks, Bortles, this QB for buffalo (Tyrod?), Carrs and other rookie Qb that have come in their rookie year and NOT lay an egg, it's becoming more desired/expected for producing asap.

Then you factor where he was selected, and IMO, that's where the patience starts to dissipate.

Then you factor the wasted season with the immaturity issues and just not overall taking the opportunity seriously, and this is where you get the "he's a bust".

Outside of some flashes this preseason and etc, it is what it is.

so how many?

How about we give him at least a season, 16 full games as the starter?

Give it a break. JM wasn't picked as the #1 starter this year or last year for the Brown's. We knew he'd needed some development. The Brown's can't protect their QB's like other teams, so he's been thrown in there as just a backup.

You mean like the turnovers last week? We didn't really have to wait for it, did we?

Luck is supposedly a once-in-a-generation QB, Bortles didn't have a very good rookie season, Taylor is in his 4th or so season (1st as a starter) and has only played well in one game so far, and Carr looked nice last season. There are also guys like EJ Manuel, Robert Griffin, Brandon Weeden, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Tim Tebow, and Josh Freeman who were 1st round QBs from the last 5 or 6 drafts. It's tough to step in and produce ASAP. I understand that's what our society has come to expect, but that doesn't mean it's correct. Most of these guys NEED to sit for a year or two and learn the most complex position at the highest level of competition in all of sports.

No kidding if only our starting QB's had a little more time or know how to slide and hold on to the ball we wouldn't need to throw in a backup QB that isn't ready all the time.

so your talking at least part of next year?

Exactly...QB's like Brett Favre, Aron Roger's, Tom Brady, Roger Staubach all sat early in their careers.

No. He has already started 2 and there are 15 games remaining this season. That'd put him at 17 by the end of this season. We would probably know what we have in him by then.

What I believe goes into a lot of the thoughts on JFF, is how long will it take him to "earn" 16 starts? I understand the thought process behind giving him 16 starts, but let's face it, to this point he couldn't beat out either Hoyer or McCown is his first two training camps.

As of now, if JFF starts, it will be by default. It will be do to an injury. Not by JFF going out and earning the starting job in his second NFL season. The blame for the lack of starts and playing time rest on the shoulders of JFF, not the fans expecting him to be the QB that this FO drafted him to be.

So how many years should the fans wait for him to "earn his 16 starts" before they begin to doubt his abilities? No matter how much people stomp their feet, the shortcomings JFF continue to show, aren't the fault of posters on this board.

We have a coaching staff and FO that depend on winning to keep their jobs. So far those people haven't trusted JFF to do that. Year two....... still waiting.

It's rare when a rookie QB "earns" his starts. Did Bortles earn his starts last year or was the guy playing in front of him not good? Did Manziel earn his starts last year or was Hoyer just bad? It's very rare when a rookie, particularly a first round rookie, earns his starts. Most teams that draft 1st round guys get them in the game to get experience and take their lumps. Did Weeden "earn" his starts here his rookie year? No, he just got drafted in the first round or the guy in front of him was just awful.

The blame for Manziel's waste of a rookie season is all on him. Sucks for him, sucks worse for the fans. Unfortunately, it's a throw away...it's like it never happened. This is like his real rookie season this year in terms of doing the things he should have been doing last year. Whether or not he deserves that is another debate. But the FO felt he did. It's where we are.

I think fans and media alike are really holding last year against Manziel. I get the short-term anger, but it's like a sunk cost at this point. You can't do anything about it. How do we move forward? I was glad Jaws came out with some unpopular, positive opinions this week on Manziel (and unfortunately a little negative on Thomas). He needs some backers. Just a few believers.

Here we disagree. Now I see how that can be a fans perspective. But let's look a little deeper. If you're on the coaching staff or the FO, this is year two of a four year contract. You paid Manziel for a complete season. A complete year was lost due to Manziel's behavior. It most certainly happened. From a coaches standpoint, JFF just blew 25% of the time you had to develop him.



I certainly agree. Now instead of having four years to develop a QB before deciding his fate, they have three years.



Who would you hold accountable for his behavior last year?




I feel there's a seperation of miles between supporters and believers. I support all of our players and hope they can develop into high quality contributors to the Browns. That's never been an issue with me.

However, I have seen nothing from JFF to give me reason to believe in him. Hope? Sure. Belief? Why?

Man Rish, and I let you off the hook in the other thread about this and now you bring it back up again? Questioning my fandom, really? That's lame. Rest assured, I'm still a Browns fan, that's hard enough and don't feel like going into a pissing contest with other posters about it. I've repeatedly expressed my frustration with a lot of the structure within, not just the QB. For me, Manziel is really just a small symptom of what's wrong with the Browns...

I don't think you're making the point you think you are. If the rookie plays better than the person in front of him then damn straight he earned the starting spot and so far Johnny has not "earned" to start ahead of Hoyer or McNown. That's a very poor argument if you meant it to be in favor of him.

As a general statement, this is just another example of why he's never going to get it. What quarterback is looking for shorter down and distance so it makes an easier scramble for him?

“A big thing for us last week obviously is we need to run the ball a little bit better. We need to get our running backs a little more engrained and a little more downhill and really get some positive gains. That will put us in better situations where it’s not a third and nine trying to scramble for the first down. It’s a third and three and you only have to take off for five yards. It’s not long runs down the field trying to make something happen. Keeping ourselves really in third and short with some of those early run downs will help us out there.”

And if only the running game was better, he wouldn't have to run so far on third down.

Here he goes again, telling us who he is and who he will be and we just keep glossing it over. He's a kid who's never had to work at anything in his life and appears to be unable to change his game or his overall attitude (at least outside of an interview room, there his attitude is great!)

I didn't question your fandom. I think the way you express it is excruciatingly exhausting and overall way too negative.

Let me off the hook? LOL.

Stetson, my point still stands. First round rookie QBs rarely "earn" their starting spots.

I guess Pettine said today that if McCown is cleared to practice on Friday, he'll start on Sunday.

Think u forgot your purple.. 2nd year vet? lol.. the irony in that statement.

JC.


I don't car if Pee-Wee Herman starts, as long as we win.

If he starts, I bet we spank them.

and ourselves.

How do you define "earning" other than beating out your competition? Do you "earn" a start because you're "better" than half the QB's in the league, or do only the top 10 actually earn their starting spots.

Come on man, you can only beat out the people you're competing against and if you beat them out then you earn your spot, ain't no other way and first rounders disproportionately start in their rookie years in this day and age.

The proof is in the pudding.

When I see actual improvement in not only Johnny's play, but the whole teams and the clowninsh front office, then my posts may not seem so silly to your lil brain.

I'm certainly not trying to pile on here. But it would be nice if you explained why you believe and points to back up your feelings.

I understand your negative expectations and I'm not one who will fault you for that. However, I would like to see your rationale and reasoning for those feelings contained in your posts.

Just a suggestion. Not trying to be argumentative.

That's fair PitDAWG. I really don't have the passion or desire to debate the same things over and over again every year. It is all regurgitation. The state of the team is as obvious as can be.
1. Bad Owner
2. Bad GM
3. Unproven Head Coach
These are all obvious when you see the final product. One game doesn't mean a season, but if we lose to the Titans at home, my ongoing cynical approach will remain.

I appreciate the response.

LOL?

Not denying your assessment, just giving my opinion on the list.

1) Curious, because many give Haslam a bad grade, but other than any forced agendas or decisions, the owner has little to do with daily field operations. And we hardly ever see or hear of him anymore.

So, I don't see what a bad owner has to do with anything, like I said, unless they are pushing decisions that pertain directly to the field operations.

2) Bad GM, it could be argued that he is bad, but I'm still willing to say he's inexperienced, and can hope he improves. Many of the things people seem to complain about, outside of his early draft picks, are not under his complete control. FA's take 2 sides to agree, trades take 2 sides.

I have said it in another thread, that I wonder more about the scouting staff as far as the poor drafting than anything. The GM relies on the scouts to give him the information that he uses to make his draft board. Is he not getting very good info, or is he just going with his own information?

3) I agree, unproven. But I see things I like, and hope he improves. Belicheck was once unproven too, as was any head coach.

Coaches are much like players, they need practice and time to refine their skills. The really good HCs seldom move from team to team, they stay long term and retire. So you either get a rehash that did poorly and got fired, or you start fresh. Neither will bring a guarantee of success. As we have seen over the last 15 years.

Then my question would be ; How smart was Haslam for bringing in a Rookie GM and a rookie Coaching staff ?