DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Farmer's draft picks, game by game

I started this horror show after week one in the closed Farmer thread. Just purley looking at Farmer's picks and their production:

WEEK 1

1st/2nd round picks:

Gilbert - inactive
Manziel - 1 TD/1 INT, 2 fumbles, both lost
Bitonio - starting LG
Shelton - 1 tackle, Jets RBs ran for 152yds on 32 carries
Erving - best bench warmer on the team
Orchard - inactive

3rd/4th rd picks:

West - traded (7th)
Desir - never saw him, no stats, was dressed
D.Johnson - 7/22yds
X.Cooper - inactive

10 players, 1 good starter, 1 not so good starter and a lot of no impact

WEEK 2

Starting Farmer's farewell tour game-by-game counter:

1st/2nd round picks:

Gilbert - inactive
Manziel - 2 TDs/0 INT, 2 fumbles, none lost
Bitonio - starting LG
Shelton - 2 tackles, 2 assissts, played on 49% of snaps Titans RBs ran for 150yds on 25 carries (6ypc)
Erving - best bench warmer on the team, played 3 snaps
Orchard - 13 snaps, did nothing

3rd/4th rd picks:

West - traded (7th)
Desir - was in on one play
D.Johnson - 12/43yds
X.Cooper - inactive

10 players, 3 starters. Bitonio solid as usual. Manziel and Shelton improved, but we don't have a NFL looking passing game and the run D is dead last in the league in overall rushing yds allowed, 29th in ypc. In other words, they still suck, so doesn't seem like Shelton has been an upgrade so far.

More Farmer bashing in 4...3...2..........

You hit on some, and you miss on others. He's done okay.

At least he didn't waste a first on Gabbert

This doesn't seem petty at all.

Why are you putting the other teams rushing total for Shelton? That's a total defensive effort.

Sure, it's unfair to put all of that on Shelton, that's not my poiint, but it all starts with the NT in the 3-4 and improving the run D was the no1 reason Shelton was drafted. Regardless of the stats, he only played half the snaps. I understand the need of a DL rotation and a NT not playing on every snap, but considering that we have no real backup at the position, investing a high 1st round pick on a player that only plays half the snaps and has no impact in run defense...this is going the Mingo-route. Tell me what Shelton has improved because I sure don't see it and Ivory, Sankey, McCluster are hardly top RBs in this league, neither are the Raiders RBs next sunday. It will only get tougher after that. Again, we are LAST in the NFL in run D

Kirksey starts...and is playing well, IMO. He's not listed anywhere in the original post, FYI.

Correction:
I forgot to include ILB Kirksey, 3rd rd pick. He's not even half a starter though, having played 47 of 141 possible snaps this season. Overall he has 2 solo tackles, 2 assists, 1 TFL, 1 FR. He's mostly a role player as a coverage LB

Personally I'm intrigued in Cooper. Bummed he's been inactive ... well, bummed isn't the word. Mystified is more like it.

I also wish we'd utilize Bibbs at some point because I think a young QB needs a pass-catching TE

Was a huge fan of the Johnson, Cooper and Campbell picks, so of course two of them are healthy inactives.

Cooper is simply blocked. Can't play NT and Starks, D.Bryant, Hughes have priority because of contract and experience

Can't honestly say that I'm all that worried about it just yet. The Titans had 1 run for 44 yards which was a wide off tackle run that the NT had nothing to do with and everything to do with Whitner (I believe it was him) getting too far up field.

Other than that, their longest run by a RB was 8 yards.

And as the anchor to the DL, does he not get any credit at all for the D putting up 7 sacks and who knows how many other pressures and hits?

see what i mean? people can't just enjoy a win around here. i understand critiquing and such, as there's always room for improvement.

but man.....

Not to mention he left Desir off that block that enabled Benji to run into the endzone. I think were gonna be fine. Were not perfect, but were getting better.

Some folks have that agenda, that's why anything negative is exaggerated and anything positive is minimized.. heck some positives are even turned into negatives..

Only in Cleveland is a 50 yard TD dagger to seal a game a sign that your QB just doesn't get it.

In the Immortal words of Clem: Word

With Housler barely even making known he's in the game, I'm not sure why Bibbs hasn't been called on.

I saw Cooper on the bench last game by himself. Looked sad and disappointed he wasn't called into action for the second game in a row.

Is it just because he offers no more than a rushing attack?

DC, I respect you as a mostly even keeled poster, the more disappointing it is to read that you join in in the every Browns/Manziel criticism is "agenda driven" killer argumentation. That's just lousy and filled with hypocrisy, as shown in your "take away the 44yd run" argument, but when someone mentiones Manziel's stat line without the big plays, it's because they can't enjoy a win or some other crapola. Both are valid arguments to be made, because a larger sample of plays is always more important than one, but apparently one is a legit argument and the other is just hating. It's so easy and I have to question anyone's intelligence that can't see the hypocrisy of it.
I make no qualms about not liking what I see from Farmer, Manziel and others, but at least I give arguments, facts, stats etc and don't discount every counter with personal BS. It's ok to have totally differing opinions on the same player, team or GM.

Rish and others have done a nice job dividing this board into "either cheerleader or hater" camps. It's sad, that I have to repeat that I'm still a Browns fan, the lone fact that I spend time on here is proof for that. To aggressively question one's fandom has become the most recent stupid narrative to shut down any criticsm. I'm starting to remember why I stopped posting on here.

Ok, you've convinced me. The Browns are fine, Farmer has done ok, we are "improving" etc. Enjoy and see ya in October in the 2016 draft threads

Cleveland Browns

– QB Johnny Manziel (-2.7) led the Browns to victory for the first time in his career. The Browns put Manziel in a great position, where he only had to make a couple of plays to win the game; he was able to produce on those moments by moving out of the pocket and delivering two bombs downfield to WR Travis Benjamin (+1.6) for touchdowns. However, Manziel desperately needs to keep the ball secured tightly when being sacked; thankfully for the Browns, they recovered both of the QB’s fumbles, but if this issue reoccurs, they might not be so lucky.

– The Browns defense was able to pressure Titans QB Marcus Mariota (-4.0) all day long. Mariota was the pressured on 41.3 percent of his dropbacks and was sacked seven times. The Browns confused the Tennessee offensive line with multiple zone blitzes that the Titans where unable to pick up on a consistent basis.

– NT Danny Shelton (0.0) was the 12th overall pick in this years draft, and for a rookie, held his own versus the Titans. While he didn’t produce much on the stat sheet (three tackles and one run-stop), he was able to make life difficult for the Titans by using his body to occupy double teams without getting moved out of the hole.

Top performers:

LT Joe Thomas (+3.7)
DL Randy Starks (+2.7)
CB Tramon Williams (+2.4)
DL Jamie Meder (+1.8)
LB Karlos Dansby (+1.7)

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20...ms-for-mariota/



Looks like PFF disagrees with you on Shelton.

Our backup NT is Meder and he graded out high for PFF as well. +1.8 4th highest rating on the team Yesterday.

Benjamin was not one of our top 5 performers in that game? I am skeptical of their system.

I didn't know I had that much sway on here. Groovy.

Call it crapola if you must... but what happens when somebody says take away the fumbles? His passing stat line is pretty impressive if you take the fumbles out of the argument...

And here is my issue in having these arguments with you, while I really do think you are a knowledgeable and informed person, you use stats when they suit your case... and when they don't, you use the eye test or other factors to prove that the stats are wrong or don't tell the whole story.

It's like our run D.. you quoted multiple times, last in the league, you quoted the Titans stats... in watching the game, did you honestly FEEL like we were getting gouged in the running game? Because I never did. It was a totally different feeling than the Jets game, perhaps it was because the situation was different but I wasn't sitting there hoping they didn't just run it down our throat, because I didn't think they could.


Nope, it's not hating... what is hating is saying, "Ok, look what his stats look like without his best plays" while not accepting, "Ok, look what his stats look like without his WORST plays"... and that is the danger in manipulating stats.. which I admit to doing... If you want to take out the high and the low and find the average from there, then set that as the baseline, but just taking out the high (or the low) to prove a point? That is dangerous with stats.. Especially in a game often decided by only a handful of big plays..


Hey, I'm not far from you on Farmer, call it luck or whatever but without a few low draft picks and/or UDFAs really stepping up beyond expectations, his last two drafts are looking awfully bad. And you can't survive in this league hoping UDFAs bail you out... those round 1-4 guys need to hit more than they miss. I say that with the caveat that if Manziel does pan out as the long term QB for this team, it will have a totally different appearance...

With all of the high draft picks we've had the last couple years, we could have set the foundation to be good for a long time and it appears we didn't fully capitalize on that opportunity... and that might be being kind.


Which I have never done. I've questioned your objectivity toward certain individuals, but not your team fandom..


I'm not trying to convince you... I just think the stats you picked in the Farmer thread were presented in a lopsided fashion to make your opinion even more apparent.. and that is where you used the "I'll use stats when they suit me and subjective reasons when they don't"

Yeah, how is it that a guy catches 3 passes (on 4 targets) for 115 yards and 2 YD .... and also returns 6 punts for a 25 yard average, with a long of 78, and another TD ..... and he isn't one of the top performers?

You don't. It was just one mans opinion.

I still remember on Sheldon Browns last year here in Cleveland...He was the 16th highest rated corner in the league...yet noone signed him as a FA and he went into retirement...they have some odd calculations

Outside of Joe Thomas, he was the next best offensive performer, according to the site.

Funny how if you talk about farmers draft picks you are labeled a basher and hater by some posters lol.

How and where do you see that??? I have not see that anywhere.

I have seen where posters are prematurely labeling Farmer's drafts a bust because they have an agenda against Farmer. . . They aren't "talking about" the draft picks. It's very different. It's 2 games into the season for this year's rookie class - and yet some/many are suggesting that Farmer blew it this year. . . . based on the fact that you need 3 years or more to correctly grade a draft class - any labeling of Farmer's 2nd draft as a bust or giving it a grade is therefore just agenda driven.

Man, at least he's talking football. Most sports talk is girlie gossip.

I wish Django's post was easy for me to dismiss and I could just attack him. The first question I ask is... are the facts (stats)he presented relevant? Unfortunately, they are very relevant to me. I'm a Brown's fan. The second question is... is it important to discuss these issues? These issues concerning Farmer and his picks? Unfortunately, I think they are essential to discuss. I think that is what is necessary for a good board - - a good thread.

If we can't discuss this then what?

The Brown's win on Sunday really helped a lot. I'm not all wrapped up in the negativity. But Django, with his stat post, paints a picture that wasn't pretty to look at. Even if he ends up hitting it big with Shelton, Erving, Johnny, etc. I think we still need a good explanation on what he was thinking when it comes to Gilbert, West, Mayle, etc...

Positive: Our talent looks a little better than it has at times in the past 15 years.

Negative: Most of Django's points were spot on. The lists speak for themselves.

Lets hope things really turn around and we can look back on this post and make him eat some crow. Till then, I'm not feeling too comfortable with Farmer's picks. I feel like he could have done much better. The best thing he has done was fleece the Bills.

Awhile back a poster described all the good players Farmer has passed on. Some alluded to how many of the players he did get we overbought and took way earlier than we had to. We could have had many of them and two or three really good players too. I see that. I also agree with those who questioned his ability (or willingness) to select playmakers and impact level players.

The biggest impact we've gotten from one of his picks is from a guard.

I don't believe I'm a hater. I hope for the best. I wish Farmer, and especially every one of his draft picks,the best. But, I'm a Brown's homer and my belief is that every Brown's fan needs to keep an eye on his every move.

I am not sure you can stick the blame on the running yards allowed on the nose tackle when the majority of yards allowed bu the defense has been around the end. Our OLB's are very weak at setting the edge.

He missed two blocks on running plays, don't argue with PFF.

Which differs from the first question I ask myself, which is... are the facts he presents complete and in context? I believe he has made a conscious decision to mix stats with his opinion, in a way that presents a more negative picture than reality... I'm not saying it's going to be GOOD if one is more objective, just that it would be less bleak.


Obviously any true fan, especially one of a team that historically struggles, is going to dissect the actions of the front office and what it is doing to build that team out of the basement... I have no problem discussing it and giving my honest opinion...

Sometimes it's not so much what you say, but how you say it. Trying to use shock value in order to get vivid responses? well, you see how that ends up.

What? Please tell me what's "shock value" about posting report cards and bottom line production of the entire picks. Now I make this list look sucky? Really? The list speaks for itself. It's not my fault that half of his high picks don't make the field or are low impact role players when they do

Is "Text's" first round CB Dilbert ever going to even SEE the field this year?

I'll just use a couple of examples. You have no problem saying that JFF's last TD pass only increased the chance of winning the game by 20% when we've seen so many times that when we lose momentum, that teams have come back and beaten us often. You make it sound as if the Titans after scoring 14 unanswered points, only down by one score, had little chance of tying up that game. This is a feeble attempt to minimize that score.

Secondly, putting the rushing yards per attempt next to Sheltons name when the bulk of the yardage given was poor outside containment by our OLB's which had nothing to do with Shelton.

A report card is one thing. The slant you put on it and some of your follow up posts are something all together different.

It's not a feeble attempt, it's math reality. Google it. I'm pretty confident that it's around that mark. It's really not my problem if you don't understand basic win probability math.

While Shelton isn't the only culprit in run D, he was brought in to upgrade the unit, which hasn't happened. If anything we've gotten worse and he's the only new starter, if he can be labled that, barely playing over 50% of the season snaps. ALL of that is disappointing to me and I again challenge you to tell me what kind of positive impact he has contributed, if all of what I'm suggesting is slanted BS. Has he been better than Taylor or Kitchen? I'm listening...

It looks like his grade is separated, one grade as a WR and another as a returner. I'm not sure why his work as a returner alone doesn't get him on the list of top performers (it is a good site, but I haven't read it for a while and don't know some of their new procedures.)

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20...ms-for-mariota/



https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/09/21/the-best-players-at-every-position-for-week-2/

You get a little more up set . Re watched the first half of the TENN. game ( defensive side of ours ) Shelton got owned by their OL !

I quit reading the posts because it became painfully obvious that each post was influenced greatly by personal agendas.

LOL.........it's either black or white, right guys?

Did Dj not make any good points?

Were all his points correct?

Depends upon which side you are on. Pfftttt........

The lack of objective posters on this board [and this is the best Brown's board] is depressing.

We never can seem to discuss things rationally. It's always about this side vs that side.

Ignorance.