DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Can Johnny Step Up Into the Pocket and Make an NFL Throw?

No

Not yet anyway.

If he is able to develop this ability, we may have our Quarterback. But, as Mike Shanahan brought up last week, it is a very difficult thing to learn. Especially when its on the job, in the NFL. It takes a lot of time, a lot of reps. With that comes a lot of mistakes.

It takes a lot of patience.

You have to be able to stand in the pocket and throw accurately, with velocity, to win in the NFL. All good scrambling quarterbacks still have to be able to throw from the pocket. That's the key. Haven't seen Johnny step into the pocket and deliver a medium range lazer through a tight window yet.

Have you? What's your take?

Yea, unless you count the times he did it Sunday, he's totally incapable of doing it.

Oh, and thanks for another Manziel thread, that's what we needed.

Simple fact : Johnny is a seriously dangerous QB when on the move ( right now ).. You want to win " Right Now " then incorporate what he dose extremely well into " PART " of you game plan .. Ain't rocket science here !

didn't he do that the last two weeks?

the guy is standing in the pocket the majority of the time and going through his progressions.

he might leave the pocket every now and then a bit too early, but it's a night and day difference between this year and last year, IMO.

and didn't he stay in the pocket with that bomb to benji the first TD of the game on sunday?

and staying in the pocket only counts for so much. if he stays in the pocket in the 4th quarter, we're looking at a dead QB cause orakpo was gonna crush him.

IMO "stepping UP" into the pocket is different than drifting back around the periphery.

Leading with your front foot and front shoulder and "driving" the throw is different than opening up your stance and slinging the throw across your body. Which is what I see every time I see Johnny throw to his left.

When Johnny has come out of his scramble, I have seen him set and drive (ie last bomb to Benjamin)the throw.

The point is, and always will be... can he step up, be pressured, slide off the pressure, and deliver an accurate lazer through an tight NFL window from the pocket?

That is my question to you guys. I was prepared for this exact response. I was hoping for a response to my specific point. As I said, its the key. My response to your question "didn't he do that the last two weeks" is no.

There are many guys who can make a good throw, downfield, off of the run. There are slightly more than a handful that can make an NFL throw, stationary, from the pocket, with acceptable accuracy.

The point is, step up, into a pressurized pocket, and deliver an accurate NFL level throw downfield. Window is the key word. If they have to throw it through a window that means its not a simple slant, out, or checkdown of some sort. Its the throw necessary to compete in the playoffs. (I'm trying to be specific to avoid continued responses like the above) Respond if you must, but I think I was clear and specific enough.

If Johnny learns how to do this and does it successfully then we may start to get the production out of him that the Seahawks get out of Russell Wilson - - Or, maybe even more (as crazy as that sounds).

No one is saying restrict Johnny from being Johnny.

well in that case, if we're taking everything into account, the more important question should be if he'll even have the chance to?

I dunno if anybody else has been noticing this, but alex mack is getting absolutely bullied in pass protection. it's forcing manziel to leave the pocket. i dunno if he's still trying to get comfortable after the leg injury or what.

But our line has to be stable enough first.

I think it's a legit question.

I don't recall him doing it too much on Sunday.

I'm talking about a nice intermediate throw into the middle of the field on a seam route or to a guy who sits down in a zone. Those are more difficult throws than bombs.

Not saying this to be critical because I want to see Manziel's continued development and am holding out hope that he is the guy, but other than Bowe gator arming the one throw, I don't recall too many passes like that.

If he starts Sunday, I'd like to see some of those.

The Raiders will shade a safety to Benjamin all day and their ends will be told to keep Manziel in the pocket. There is going to come a game, as early as this Sunday, where Manziel will have to demonstrate that he can see over the line, create throwing lanes, and sometimes step up into the pocket to make those intermediate throws.

I think the kid is more talented and a lot smarter than people think. I can't wait to see him continue to develop. Looking forward to seeing this part of his game on Sunday, if he starts.

Good point.

Mike Shanahan came out last week and his objective was to get people to understand how difficult it is to teach a quarterback how to operate at a high level in the pocket.

He said it takes a couple years of hard work.

Although Brady, Peyton, and Rodgers came out of college with many reps in the pocket, it still took them years to master it.

Johnny could be the man. But, only if he masters this fine art. (and stays healthy -- avoids big hits).

I'm just glad Manziel is sliding when running lol

He did prove he could do it.

(In camo shorts, with no pressure, in an environment that looked more like a reality TV show than a professional athletes private workout)

Castrol EDGE Clutch Performer of Week 2

Vote Johnny Manziel,

Johnny Manziel, Cleveland Browns

Browns quarterback Johnny Manziel connected with wide receiver Travis Benjamin for a 50-yard touchdown with 2:52 remaining to give the Browns a 28-14 win over the Titans. The Titans trimmed the Browns' lead to 21-14 on the previous series, but Manziel's scramble and TD toss thwarted the comeback attempt

The touchdown pass in the preseason, I think it was to Gabriel, comes to mind when discussing Manziel stepping up in the pocket.

He can do it for sure, we have seen him do it. We don't know if he can do it consistently.

Wynn, but hey, what's one small smurf receiver from another huh? LOL

...

I'm not sure why we need another Manziel thread, but since it seems to be kicking, I'll bite. The question I'd rather be asked is... can he maneuver around and find the soft spots in the pockets that will grant him those extra bits to find a target and/or deliver a pass? We see Luck do it, Brady is awesome at it and so on and so on.

All QBs can step up into a pocket when there's no middle pressure and the edges are collapsing and throw the ball. The real juice of the fruit comes when they can move around IN the pocket when things are hostile from all directions, and still have poise and etc to find a target and throw the ball. I'm not sure JF has shown ability to be able to do that. He's shown less happy feet and some better pocket presence, but when you watch the elite qbs - he has a long way to go IMO.

The one thing I have liked in the last two games is how much more decisive Manziel has been. If something is there, he's getting the ball out quickly. If it's not he's moving outside the pocket and keeping his eyes up and making good throws or getting a few yards and getting down...

Is he leaving the pocket too early sometimes? I'm sure he is, but if anybody thought he would break that and become Mr. Statue QB, then that's on them, not Manziel. It's not who he is, it's not who he is ever going to be.

Thanks

Was it a strong throw or a looper?

Well, if the answer to this specific football question becomes "yes" and he can do it consistently, it will make all the difference in the world to our team.

See for yourself:

Good call ... good example of him climbing into the pocket

Johnny has the arm to throw laser shots from the pocket, but he is still doing "on the job" training.

His offense at Texas A&M obviously did him no favors in this regard.

After last Sunday's performance, I am hopeful for the first time in a long time about our QB position.

No doubt about it. I think he'll only get better the more live reps he gets and the more looks he sees that he can later film study and become good/better at his pre-snap reads.

In addition to the decisiveness comment, I swear I can (most of the time) see his helmet turning, going through his reads, if he's not running for his life. He's shown great vision while on the run, but we saw that in college. I like seeing, visibly, him scanning the field in the pocket/etc.

Sam Monson
‏@PFF_Sam

Johnny Manziel's passer rating under pressure so far this year: 119

At least he's passing under pressure not just trying to run ... regardless of the rating (but that's a good rating :p)

How many attempts?

It's not a good point. Mack got manhandled once. The second play, he used the guy's momentum to guide him out of the play and Crow had a very nice gain because of it.

Mack is an excellent player and has been doing a very good job overall. Everyone gets beat occasionally.

Yes.

https://twitter.com/misterbonner/status/646324701510389760

You'll have to skip ahead to the 2:20 minute mark (unless you want to enjoy some Browns lowlights), but on back-to-back plays Manziel threw from the pocket with velocity. Yes, I he is capable of throwing from the pocket.

2014 Browns vs Bills Video Link

I've noticed. Mack still doesn't look 100%. With little depth up front, or until someone else steps up the oline won't be stable as an NFL oline needs to be.

I remember one play where he looked especially good stepping up in the pocket against Tennessee. It was a quick pass based off a play action. I'd have to go back and watch it, but I remember thinking it was a good pocket play on his part.

That being said, he has a long way to go.

To all you guys who know oline, schemes and how its trained:

What did Sean Payton and the Saints do when Brees went there?

Specifically, they created multiple passing lanes with their blocking and blocking schemes. Brees could step into the pocket and have 3,4, even 5 open channels to throw downfield through. Although he was small, he could throw out of the pocket, and only very rarely have a big defensive lineman in his face.

It was obvious that their pass blocking schemes were designed to do that, but their level of success doing it was the surprising thing.

I've never seen another offense come close to it.

Any thoughts?

In my opinion, it was more tempo. Like Denver today they overwhelmed in play makers.

Saints never replaced pieces with like talent. Colston is still their best player when healthy. They drafted well owner doesn't want to pay to keep.

To tell you the truth, it looks like Cleveland three or four years ago with a good QB. No depth and a few good starters simply cannot sustain.

Isn't this stepping up into the pocket?

Stepping up into the pocket necessitates a pocket to be there. Our OL needs to do a better job of providing that pocket. JM is still learning, His game against the Titans was lights out his best performance to date. That said the Raiders will be a challenge for him. Oh! wait he's not starting.

More specifically, Alex Mack needs to do a better job. Coming off injury or not, he needs to start standing his ground better.

Mack is playing well. Do not let one play fool you.

I'd say you are dead wrong. He can, he does, he has.

Does he do it all the time? [1] No - he has a lifetime of playmaking on the run to try to get out of his instinct system. That will take time. [2] He's short - so unless the there are lanes open - he is going to move a little to create some vision and space so he can see downfield.

I like our O'line - but I don't think they are going to open 5 lanes for JM to throw through like you claim NO did. . . I never watched them that much, I don't know if they did what you said or not - but I find the idea of any NFL OL getting 5 throwing lanes open on a consistent basis hard to believe. Even 3 lanes would be an amazing accomplishment.