DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Josh McCown continued

Ugggg! I hate discussing the same topic on upteen threads!!! Not your fault it just happens!

First, Josh will get benched if losing starts. Cream always rises to the top, but you can't force it.

Browns have no shot? Vers, you were a coach listen to what you're saying! If you start a younger player over an elder, you better be dang sure, right? Otherwise, your other elder players stop playing. You loose the locker room. You loose your job.

I hear what you are saying. Where I disagree w/you is that I do NOT think that the Browns have a better chance of winning w/McCown.

I'm looking at it in this way...

Pettine named McCown the starter. He may have been given that role since JF was coming off a lot of changes and needed to get a new start, perhaps without the competition. Right or wrong that's how it was decided.

McCown does have knowledge of the offense and the experience as well as took all the first team reps in training camp as the starter.

Without first team reps in training camp JF did pretty well in the preseason, mostly playing vs second string competition. He showed a lot of improvement and that was what was asked of him. No competing for the starter's role, just to work on improving himself.

Those are two very different roles. The starter and the back up.

You expect your starter to have command of the offense. I think McCown showed that he does in the 3rd preseason game and in his lone drive in the first regular season game until he was injured.

You expect you backup to be able to come in and win a game or two if your starter goes down. JF came in to replace the injured McCown and did pretty well for half of the first game in a loss. He then started the next game and did much better even to the point of putting the icing on the cake for the win. So he did his job.

If McCown is cleared to play I believe he should start. That was the plan from the beginning. Except for his ill decision to dive into the endzone getting himself concussed he did well in that first game. He started fast and came this close to scoring on his first drive.

So I feel both QBs, the starter and the backup, did the job expected of him.

Start McCown if he's cleared. Follow the plan. Let JF go back to working on his improvement with both his gained confidence and his new experience to learn from.

If McCown does as we expect he'll play himself out of the job soon enough, probably in a few weeks. And now that we know for a fact that JF is improved, I think giving him time to absorb what he learned in the first two games he will likely continue to improve. That will make it much easier to switch to him later.

I don't see the point in completely abandoning the plan that they've worked on all through the off season and through training camp and the preseason. Especially after only two games of not really seeing the guy you named the starter. If they thought it was the best plan they should stick to it until it proves otherwise.

In addition, while I disagree with Django's prediction of JFs ceiling, he did bring up some good points. And though the masses don't want to hear it, especially after such an exciting game, many of his points were valid.

They named the starter and gave him all the first team reps. They named the backup who got none and he already missed a couple of weeks leading up to the opener.

Stick to the plan until it doesn't work. It is a 16 game season. I for one don't expect McCown to impress for long. JF will get his chance.

1. He won the job in TC in case you missed it. The coaches saw multiple more reps from both Qbs than any of us. I thought you were a coach too? It will be "interesting" to see if the Manzielians now turn on Pettine in their quest to heroize their man crush.

2. The Browns 2015 are 1-1, it's not time to play "for the future". Try tell that to Dansby, Whitner, Tramon Williams or Joe Thomas. You play the best QB on your team and the coaches didn't take long to name McCown. The best looking drive this season still was the first in the Jets game.

3. If Manziel is the future AND if McCown is as bad as you think he is, then he will force himself onto the field. If he can't beat McCown, then he isn't the future. Not sure what's so hard to understand here.

My respect for Pettine grew with this decision. Contrary to popular belief in here, he handled Manziel perfectly last week, keeping him on a short leah and limiting the risk/flash factor that the game didn't really need. He knew the game was our D vs Mariota and he just needed a game manager to win.

.

And if McCown doesn't start taking care of his body more on the field, we'll see Manziel sooner rather than later anyway.

I agree with you and ddub.
Very sound reasoning.

J/C ... Shows what i know.

I thought that Manziel would start.

Yup.

Right now, McCown's grasp of the offense and his ability to run it is clearly ahead of Manziel, BUT Manziel has more upside.

As soon as Manziel can demonstrate that his grasp & ability/comfort within the system makes it to at least be a push, the coaches will start to seriously consider making the switch. Until then, you ride McCown and let Johnny learn and grow.

He has enough bad habits on the field, he doesn't need to be rushed into practicing them.

I get your point, but how much "upside" does a guy like Manziel have if he STILL can't run the Offense by now. It was new to both him and McCown, so why is he so much behind again? He's considered very intelligent, maybe too much and he's too lazy and bored to really learn and understand it. For him a big part of football is still his improvisation. The "coaching is overrated" sentence speaks volumes, he's still an unreliable freelancer, both good and bad.

It really irks me that so many apologies are still being made for Manziel about this side of his game despite coming out and admitting that he didn't learn the playbook last year under Hoyer. Considering this history, being way behind yet again should be frustrating to every Browns fan. Yet here we are writing apologies for his shortcomings and citing his "upside" or "development" from the nothingness that was his rookie season.

Some of you folks should go back to the Hoyer, Anderson and Weeden threads on this board, when they had ONE minor miss step in their press conference. The ripping and dismantling was in full effect. Manziel is way, way worse in terms of "actions" and mental laziness but he gets excused. Crazy and hypocritical.

Wow, seriously dude?
That is the most ridiculous stretch of logic I've seen all week, and I've been reading political posts on Facebook every day. I'd say that you're borderline trolling now, but that would require for you to not have actually crossed the border. It's almost entertaining, though.


Let me spell it out for ya, read along with your finger on the screen if you need help keeping up:

McCown is a 10 year veteran that has moved around to lots of teams, offenses and systems; and is a very smart QB. He has experience reading defenses and running an offense, and acclimating to a new offense. His starting point is light years ahead of Manziel's.

Manziel is in his 2nd year and 2nd NFL offense, but it effectively is his 1st year of both because he blew off his first season completely. He has never had a play book, never had to read defenses, nor make any sort of line calls or adjustments. Most of his offseason was spent fixing himself. Even without the issues of last year and this offseason, he still SHOULD be behind McCown in adapting to things because as a 2nd year QB he is still adapting to the NFL.

I agree with your take on Manziel, but your take on McCown is almost as absurd as you claim Django's take. Just because McCown has experience reading defense doesn't mean he's good at it, nor does it mean he's smart...his int to td ratio proves that. His starting point def. isn't light years ahead of Manziel, if at all.

And yet more apologies. Poor Manziel, had to fix his crazy lifestyle. He needs time, poor puppy.

How about some accountability for a change? The guy has a history of "saying the right things" and "doing the wrong things", no wonder he's a hypocrite magnet, he's THE hypocrite in persona. Mariota had the same "no D reading" college background and is a rook and he was light years ahead of Manziel going through his progressions and throwing from the pocket, without even half the OL protection the Browns have.

Ever wondered why Flip said "coaching is overrated"? It's not so much of a stretch to deduct that he was asked to NOT risk anything on that play considering the situation and clocke remaining (and 97% win probability at the time). "Look for player X, then Y, if not, throw it away". Saying something like that means that he didn't do what the coaches asked him to do or planned the play to unfold.

Now, I'm not as pragmatic and excuse everything with the outcome, that's a pretty "american" way of looking at things ("who cares why, it was the right thing to do", kind of "shoot first, think later" mentality). What you call "strecth of logic" is considered game theory in other places.

false.

a guy working at a company for 10+ years has more experience than a guy working at a company for barely 2.

The guy with barely two may have more potential, but the other guy definitely understands the politics, do's and don'ts, and other situations involved with working at the company.

That isn't even remotely the same scenario. Especially in athletics and especially since they both in your scenario got hired at the same time for a new boss

For a QB coaching is overrated..you can only do so much within the lines, you have to allow your Qb to improvise and trust instinct of what they feel is the best way to handle a certain situation. Manning is the perfect example...Kubiak tried to hammer a square peg in a round hole with one of the greatest football minds ever..only after he relinquished control and let manning operate as he wanted within the confines of the scheme did it start to work.. not saying Manziel is Manning by any stretch, just an example that sometimes with QB's its not just black and white. That gray area of improvisation is what makes good qb's great

One has years of experience and the other is fresh out of college. I'll bet on experience until proven wrong.

not me, especially when that "experience" has shown to be below average, and barely able to stay in the league and the Fresh out of college is a first round pick and heisman winner.

would you be kind enough to share the current track record of heisman trophy QB's in the NFL?

lol...i'll wait.

Still the safer bet is to start the vet. Neither QB has proven anything here. I'm good with keeping to the script for the time being.

HA! Got 'em!

No Offense but the track record is not as bad as you may think.

Mat Lienart 2004
Cam Newton 2010
Marcus Mariota 2014
Carson Palmer 2002
Doug Flutie 1984

Actually the last five HTW's have been QB's

yea...no.

Matt Leinart is horrible.

2000: Chris Weinke, QB. A mostly career backup with just two NFL wins to his name.
2001: Eric Crouch, QB. Drafted as a wide receiver, got injured, got allocated to NFL Europe.
2002: Carson Palmer, QB. A rare exception, Palmer has been selected to two Pro Bowls.
2003: Jason White, QB. Not selected in the 2005 NFL Draft.
2004: Matt Leinert, QB. A disappointment with Arizona before boucing around the league as a backup.

2006: Troy Smith, QB. A fifth-round pick by the Ravens who was recently released by his CFL team.
2007: Tim Tebow, QB. He won a playoff game. Now he works for ESPN. Could have been a tight end.
2008: Sam Bradford, QB. He could be decent if he wasn’t injured all of the time.

2010: Cam Newton, QB. Another exception… maybe. The jury is still out despite a Pro Bowl selection.
2011: Robert Griffin III, QB. One good season. Now, potentially, a colossal bust.
2012: Johnny Manziel, QB. Had his first NFL start yesterday. It didn’t go well.
2013: Jameis Winston, QB. Between his inconsistency and his off-field behavior, no sure bet to succeed.

http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/recent-his...uck-in-the-nfl/

don't cherry pick, bro.

What about OUT of the NFL...?

Yeah so I picked the QB's that have had some success. It's not that bad of a track record was my point.

What about the Madden Curse?

Yes, that's probably true, unless JM is still not 100% healthy. (elbow?)

I never said he was great, I simply said that he was ahead of Manziel on those things.

If/when Manziel catches on and catches up, he will undoubtedly unseat McCown, and I'd bet that has been the plan all along; it's why McCown is here. He's the mentor/placeholder.

Heheheh, you're hilarious man.

Keep up the good work

Seriously? You mean like when McCown tried to score a TD, and got his head taken off? Yeah, right. I think you misinterpreted what he meant.

Every QB...matter of fact every pro athlete deviates from a planned play every now and again. Because it doesn't always go as planned...especially when a blocker doesn't pick up the blitz....you have to improvise to make the most out of the play.

yeah but the league is full guys that play in the UFL because noone in the NFL wanted and come back and be successful right?

Yeah I get that, I guess my point is McCown the teacher is more valuable than McCown the player at this point. Having Manziel play and have McCown in his ear during the game I think would be better than sitting on the sidelines. But at this point I don't care, because I'm pretty certain McCown won't last long either by injury or pure suckiness. I guess my biggest complaint is this would have been a great game at home for manziel to build on. Rest of the season gets tough.

Although I agree with a lot of your points I would like to point out that since McCown got all the first team reps throughout the offseason/training camp/preseason coupled with his experience it's no wonder he's ahead of Manziel.

Manziel got no first team reps throughout that time. Coupled with his lack of experience it's no wonder he's behind McCown in this offense.

I seen it said on here that other teams throw their high draft pick into the fire and let them learn on the field. Right. But those teams give that rookie all the first team reps leading into the season. Manziel got none of that. Understandably due to his performance both on and off the field last year.

Again, Mariota got all the first team reps since he was drafted.

Getting first teams reps in practice doesn't have much to do with reading a defense.

Yeah, they don't teach that in practice.

They do. But more time is spent in the meeting room than on the practice field.