DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pet on the QB Situation

Now see, you had me from hello up until this point.

I see the coaches perspective. I believe you did a great job pointing that out just as I have since this debate on starting Manziel began this week. It appears from your words that those advocating we start Manziel just wish to rush him so he fails. To prove he isn't franchise QB material so they appear to have been right all along.

Maybe that's what happens when you don't have the time to read an entire thread do to time constraints?

I too believe the coaching staff has a plan. I too believe that McCown is more prepared to run the O with the entire playbook. I too believe they feel that McCown gives us the best chance to win and that's their job, to win.

The difference between us is that I fully understand why the fans want to see JFF play. It's because entering year three of the JFF experiment, they want to know whether he is showing progress to have reason to believe he can be the answer. Which ever way it works out. They don't wish to enter the draft yet again with no clear cut answer at the QB position. They feel that for the best long term answer, that would be best for the team.

They see the progress in JFF and at the present time, they don't see all doom and gloom. They see hope that JFF has a chance to become what we all hoped he would.

Everything isn't always as simple as black and white Tab.

Very surprised with this decision ... but I have to say if McCown can win I will be ok with it, all I want to do is win whoever the QB is ...

I would love for Farve and teach Manziel as well.

You are correct. It was simply a communication break down. My bad. Sorry Tab.

McCown has been in the NFL since 2002. I think that is a big enough sample size to determine if he's good or not. Players don't magically become good in their 14th season.

I have a feeling Favre is not the one doing the teaching in that picture.

I almost get the feeling that there are folks out there that want us to start manziel BECAUSE they think he'll be horrible and get us the 1st pick in the draft.

I know we hear from some that we might want to tank the season to get a top flight QB in the draft. What was the tag line a few weeks ago, Tank for cardale or something like that?

I'm old fashion I guess, I want to win then let the chips fall where they may.

of course I'm also of the belief that you can find your Stud QB in other than the first round.. But what do I know.

Not they don't become "good"

But that doesn't mean they cant have a "good season"

I dont expect our defense to be the 2002 Bucs.. But I see no reason why McCown cant have a season like 2002 Brad Johnson.. and if he did.. I think we can win some games..

Brett Favre: It was not my job to mentor Aaron Rodgers
by In Depth Videos 5:52 mins

Brett Favre said his job was to help win ball games, not take Aaron Rodgers or anyone else under his wing

http://sports.yahoo.com/video/brett-favre-not-job-mentor-110000456.html

I think you are still missing the point, that or simply not addressing the actual issue at hand. This has nothing to do with whether or not McCown will suddenly become great in his 14th season. While it may not be saying a whole lot to some, the simple fact is that right now McCown is the best asset at QB to install and develop this offensive scheme.

Implementing the offense takes priority over JM's development. Simple as that.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JohnBr00.htm

Brad Johnson was very good at certain points of his career (he made the Pro Bowl in 1999). In 2002 he threw 22 TDs and only 6 INTs while completing 62% of his passes (sixth best in the league). He was fifteenth in passing attempts, while missing three games.

McCown has never been that good.

Can McCown be as "good" as Hoyer was weeks 1-10 last season?

I think so, because I don't think Hoyer was that good to begin with..

All we need from McCown is Weeks 1-10 of last season without the extreme drop off after that..

And now we have confidence in Manziel for the rest of the season in case there is one..

Are we going to set the league on fire? Probably not.. Can we win between 7-9 total games? I think so..

Expectations change so rapidly as the season goes on.. We will have completely new ones as of 4pm Sunday evening..

I'm just going to try to enjoy the ride..

I'm slowly coming around to this, but let's see how Josh does Sunday against a horrendous D.

'CLEVELAND.COM “ACCIDENTALLY” USES BURNED HOUSE PICTURE IN BROWNS ARTICLE'

(And no, this isn't from theonion.com)

Check it out:

http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/articl...rticle/19589905

Ha-ha! Priceless!

NO problem I will try to,do so when I get time. I did not delete the game from my DVR yet as I was waiting for that question to come up.

Neither do second year players who have so much to learn, who threw their first year in the garbage.

True, but who has a better opportunity for long-term (5-7 years from now) success?

I'll gladly watch Manziel struggle and learn OTJ IF it meant he could become a long term guy. McCown will never be that.

That's why I think this decision is a little short-sighted. Better chance of winning Sunday but potentially jeopardizing the future.

A few comments:

--GM, your negativity towards Manziel is disturbing and makes me doubt your objectivity.

--I hear about this plan that the Browns have. They might have a plan, but that doesn't mean the plan is correct. These guys have made more mistakes in two years than almost any other regime I have ever seen.

--I will make a wager w/anyone that the Browns don't make the playoffs this year. If you aren't willing to put your money where your mouth is, you might want to temper this "we gotta start Josh because he gives us a better chance to win" garbage.

--I am not sure that McCown gives us a better chance to win.

--I think this regime is clueless when it comes to evaluating offensive skill players. We choose a dud like Bowe over guys like Marshall, Crabtree, and Johnson. We pass on good WRs in the draft and pick Mayle. We choose JM over Teddy, Carr, and Jimmy G. And our "mastermind plan is to NOT play him." LMAO..........only in Brown's Make-Believe Land is this even acceptable. Of course, I have read numerous posts where people are defending the Brown's decisions and making fun of guys who are questioning them. Amazing! Then again, it's been this way for years.

The Merry Go Round of Misery continues.

I literally laughed out loud!

I'm not that confident that McCown gives us a better chance to win now. He is about as goofy in his decision making as Brandon Weeden. I give him credit in that he looked pretty good in his lone drive; but, he "McCowned" up the opportunity to put points on the board.

The second thing I'm not to confident in is the FO actually ever giving Manziel a chance to be the starter. I wonder if they will simply lose faith in JM and still go after a top QB prospect.

That would cap off Farmer's first draft in 2014 nicely.

They at least have a chance at being good. We know what McCown is -- not good.

Thanks guys

I'm seeing it a little differently, Dawg.

I think most on this board have mentioned that they see improvement in JM's game in just the short time he's been visible. Coaches have mentioned it. Players, too. And IMO, the improvement has come because of the training regimen he's currently under. To date, that regimen has been to keep him off the field and into the books.

Here's the point: if he's shown this much improvement just since TC, and the staff thinks that more time in the current protocol is the right medicine, perhaps we're all due for another pleasant surprise when they finally trot him out there on purpose.

They've told us all along that "The Plan" is twofold:

1. Give the Browns the best chance to win now
2. Give JM the best chance to actually succeed when he DOES take the field.

They've never made it a secret.

For sure, he'll have his struggles... but if you can limit the self-imposed struggles (bad reads, bad habits) BEFORE he takes the field, you maximize the chance that he'll look at least OK- even in a loss... and hopefully never look as abysmal as he did last year.

Struggling like that did nobody any favors.

Since TC, Pet & Co. have told us that this was the plan. 90% of the posters in here agreed with it when it was first told to us. After McC left the concussion protocol, they went back to the plan. It was the smart choice back in August, when everyone was in agreement. Now it's a stupid plan? Ok... let's look at this: the players are the same. The Staff is the same. The team is the same. What has changed? Oh, that's right- THE FAN. The only non-professional in this whole scenario. Who should I trust?


I was encouraged by last Sunday's showing... but I can wait.

.02


p.s. I always chuckle a little bit when I read posts like:
"We need Johnny out there so we can see what we have."

No, we don't. We're the freakkin' idiots in the stands. The Coaching Staff needs to see what "we" have. They see him every day. Guys who have been working in the NFL 5, 10, 15 years. What is some drunken Yayhoo in the last row of section 313 going to see that the coaches somehow missed?

Maybe it's a simple matter of word choice, and they don't really mean it literally. It just always cracked me up to read it worded that way.

The only thing I hate about these QB situations is that we have a Vet come in (frequently), and lets say the dude does play well. How old is McCown in the first place and how long is he actually going to play for the Browns realistically. The veteran is a stop-gap and then we end up in the same situation we were in before. We have McCown "teaching" our rookie. It's not like he's Brett Favre with Aaron Rodgers. McCown has been across the league including Canada with 13 teams. I think Manziels 8/15 passing was a product of the coaching staffs decision to not highlight Manziel more. The coaches don't want to lose the game or their jobs so they game manage him. Cut the guy loose(Manziel) and let him flourish and prove to me why McCown deserves the job back.

I hope it's not like Favre and Rodgers. Favre wanted nothing to do with Rodgers.



I don't know if you are exaggerating on purpose or not, but McCown has never played in Canada (he did play in the UFL) and has played for only nine teams (ten if you include the Hartford Colonials).



Bringing in old guys is just a result of not having a real QB. It will continue to happen until we find our real guy. If McCown and Manziel both fail this year, we will bring in a different old guy next year (along with a new rookie).



I wonder if Manziel would have been asked to do more if we hadn't jumped out to the early lead. Also, only asking him to throw 15 times (I think it was actually more than that, but he turned those passing attempts into rushing attempts) just shows that the coaches either are easing him into the role or don't trust him yet (or both).

I understand why McCown is starting. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

I'm just going to say I dislike the fact that Manziel isn't the starter. McCown makes 5.25 mil in 2015 and the dude is garbage. The cheaper and more sensable route would've been to start Manziel never having got McCown in the first place, and if Manziel tanked it atleast we'd have a viable draft position. Stop-gaps at the QB position, especially with older QB's, do the franchise no service for the future. Prime example you could say was the Colts when Peyton left and they go Andrew Luck a year later.

Your premise is predicated on GM, cap-type stuff. Money is important, but it doesn't address Real Life issues. At somepoint, we really must take into account where the Browns truly are.

The Browns Coaching Staff is assigned the task of winning games AND building a team. At this point, JM is almost as much an unknown as EJ Bibbs.

To place JM in the starter's role at this point, is the same as announcing to the entire league: "Come at us with all you have... we're trotting out our semi-prepared, pseudo-rookie- so that our fans can "see what we have."

This ain't Madden 2015.
Real people are actually doing these jobs... and trust me- they take this much more seriously than any of us fans ever do.

I LOVE the progress I saw in JM last week, don't get me wrong.

At the same time, I can also see how his developed 'technical set' would be a liability, given the 'murderer's row' of teams he'd be forced to face over the next 6-8 games.

If this kid is to be our long-term solution, "New Johnny" needs to see as much of the AFCN as he can, before playing against it.

Our Division is For Real.
They don't play well with others.

We've destroyed every single promising rook we've ever had by repeatedly doing what you propose: sending someone out who isn't yet ready.

Manziel is too special (in potential), too promising to treat like Tim Couch, Charlie Frye, Colt McCoy and Brandon Weeden.


It's high-time to try a different approach.... even if that means that the fans have to exercise a little patience.


After all... we already know what 'the alternative' has gotten us.

LOL how is reporting the truth negative bro? You might not like what I am saying, but I am not being negative I am being objective.



It also doesn't mean the plan is wrong just because you don't agree with it. As for "These guys" are you referring to Jimmy, Ray, AND Pet or just Ray?





and you don't care if he gives us a better chance to win. All you care about is Johnny starting because you want him to.

and you call me negative and doubt my objectivity

Assuming McCown gives us a better chance to win (which is VERY debatable), what's the most wins this team could have? Maybe 6, 7? ... still no playoffs

IMO, might as well play Johnny. We need to let him learn/progress and we need to evaluate his ceiling and if we need to move on. Let's say he really struggles and we only win 3 games instead of 6. WHO CARES? At least we'll know where we stand.

I really, really don't want to go into next year not knowing Johnny's skill set and future with our team

Yeah!

It's Madden 16!

...and I'm 2-5 with Manziel as my starter.. for the record..

Maybe it's the play calling?? hehehe

I keep reading people claiming that you know what you get with Josh. The guy has played for just ONE decent team in his ENTIRE career and he took them to the playoffs. The rest is just a long stream of some very horrible teams. As Browns fans we of all people should know that if you have no o-line NO QB can do well.

I just think it's impossible to KNOW what you're going to get from Josh. I do KNOW that the players all say he is light years ahead of Manziel in running the offense.

I am looking forward to Sunday because I quite frankly have no idea how Josh is going to play but I have a good vibe about it so I think we will do ok =)

That's not true. Favre saying it wasn't his job to mentor Rodgers didn't mean that he DIDN'T mentor Rodgers. It meant that it was not his primary function. His primary function in Green Bay was to be the QB and win games, but to think that he wanted nothing to do with Aaron Rodgers is just false:

Link

My run defense is terrible..

Who knew?

haha!

That's Ok PET, once you figure it out on Madden maybe you can use it in the field ...

If we had not gone and got McCown, our QB room would have been Manziel, coming off a disastrous season, and the wreck of his personal life ......Shaw, who wound up injured ....... and Thad Lewis.

McCown was brought in to add maturity and stability to the room, and also to function as a mentor to a guy starting to turn his life around.

Handing the team over to Manziel before we signed McCown would have been idiotic.

As far as the salary, who cares? We aren't paying it. The Browns are under the cap. No one sent out a notice saying we each need to chip in to cover his paycheck.

Your position that we should have just started and played Manziel no matter what is all well and good, as long as your neck is not the one on the chopping block. I think that Pettine knows that is he just blew up this season (potentially) he could be out of a head coaching gig really quickly. I am also sure that Pettine wants to win games,and think that McCown can help us do so. Doing as you suggested is far too often a straight line to unemployment for a head coach, and Pettine knows it. Thus, he is working to develop Manziel, something we should all applaud.

You use Luck as an example but what happened to their coaching staff? Further, how many other teams have had an Andrew Luck fall into their hands? Not too many.

I wanted Manziel to continue to play, but the staff decided otherwise, and gave their reasons. They want him to continue to learn, and used the 4 fumbles as an example. I can't argue with that. It is obvious that Manziel has developed in the off-season, and into this off-season, He has already progressed past what many thought. It seems like the QB coach knows how to reach him. Let him develop, and stay hungry. He'll likely (and almost certainly will) get another shot at playing this year.

I said that I thought that we would win 9 games this year, and I see no reason to change that prediction.

I think that the coaches have a pretty good idea of many of the things that Manziel can do, but know that he needs work in others. I can't argue with that. They think that he can be a starter in the NFL, so let them continue to develop him.