DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2015 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 20 Oakland 27 The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly

I agree, I doubt it will happen also. I wish they would wake up and smell the coffee already.

I'm not sure Manziel can make more throws than McCown, but he should start for his development and for the long term future of this franchise. The record will likely suck no matter what but we should get a read on whether or not Manziel can play. The Raiders won 3 games last year but saw enough of Carr to decide he's the future. That allowed them to draft Cooper.

If Manziel shows anything, and Pettine survives a firing, you can go into next year's draft and address positions besides QB. Start building the team. We can't do that if Manziel doesn't play.

And one other thing I think DJ is right about. This team has gotten awfully old in a hurry. I would trade Thomas to a contender in need of a LT for an additional first. He should play well enough this year to get that in return to the right team. If we go into next year's draft with a good feeling about Manziel and we hit on our high pick, the pick for Thomas, and our high second, we can turn this around quickly.

There is zero to be gained by playing McCown. Pettine and his coaches are in way over their heads. This is as much a learning year for them as it is Manziel.

Let me repeat this...There is ZERO to gain by playing McCown. We are a bottom basement team. That's when you play and develop young guys.

Good: Ravens are 0-3
Bad: Ravens will probably beat us
Ugly: The remaining schedule

Haslam thinks he is a football man ( nope ).. Farmer and Pettine are on the same page ( nope ) Pettine is just the " next batter up " in the long line of Browns Coach's trying to put round pegs in square holes .. Pettine has a hard on for JM .. Will take an injury or ultimatum from the owner to get him on the field .. I can't imagine anyone wanting to come to Cleveland as a player or a Coach !

Unfortunately the Media in North East Ohio is a bigger bunch of Pansy's than the defense .. Sooner or later Haslam is going to have to show his face ! Can't wait to hear the Good Old Boy spin on this cluster .......

I've been saying we should play Manziel long before the season started. I started a thread about next year. Remember that one? LOL All the know-it-alls acted like I was crazy.

I do disagree w/you about Thomas, though. This guy gets no help. Zero!!! That's huge. You gotta protect the blind side, especially w/our qbs. One is young and inexperienced and the other holds the ball forever. Trading Joe would get either one killed.

I do agree w/you on an earlier point you made........who cares about appeasing the players in regards to who plays? Well.........I kinda agree. Players should play and coaches should coach. That part I agree with. On the other hand, the players often know who the better players are and if they think you are selling out....

Dang bro.......there are no easy answers here. You and I argue at times, but we both love the team. Can you freaking believe we are ALWAYS in this freaking position???

I saw an article this morning that Pet doesn't like Manziel, but the article seemed very slanted [the opposite of Kevin Jones articles] so I chose not to post it.

I hope that isn't true.

Vers, I believe that Pettine does not want Manziel as his QB, at all. Under no circumstances.

Can you post the article? I'd like to read it.

I mentioned it earlier in the day , forget where ,lol

Came from the New York Post .. They mentioned the problems between Manning and Kubiak and then said either Pettine or Johnny would be here next , not both ..

It was kinda of a BS article, Rish. Guy was just making stuff up w/out facts. I hate when Vambo posts those Kevin Jones articles that are the opposite and I don't know if it's a good idea to post an opposite type of article. If I find it.............I will send you a link.

I think there might be something going on with Johnny team wide where most just don't like him.

I just read a bunch of post game sound bites and Gabriel and Barnidge could not stop praising McCown and his "leadership". They credit McCown's leadership in the huddle for even having a chance to come back. It seemed odd to say the least. A couple were in response to a question about McCown but there were a couple where they voluntarily offered it up.

I also noticed something from last week when Manziel was making plays. I don't remember seeing a lot of guys coming up to him and congratulating him.

Then you add in Pettine's favorite word for him, the backup, and somethings going to have to give.

I noticed that his teammates did not really congratulate him when he threw those long TD passes. He was pumped up, running downfield, and no one met him. I thought that was odd and I kinda felt bad for him.

Just watched Pettine's presser. I will say this. The guy was pissed. No cliches. No catch phrases. He looked like he couldn't wait to get off the podium and go rip into someone. And he was sweating like a mad man. I hope he can channel that emotion into getting this team amped up to play.

As to Johnny, if these guys don't like him because of what happened last year, then they need to get over it. If it's something else, I'd like to see a report on it.

But I think Pettine is going to go down with the McCown ship so it probably doesn't matter. We will have a new HC, new coordinators, new systems and all new players, including QB. The new guys will want their guys.

McCown, the future of the Cleveland Browns.

That's really sad.

Freaking depressing.

I was really hoping I was wrong.

Maybe I am. Maybe they will turn it around.

San Diego isn't very good. They got drilled today. If we can pressure Rivers into turnovers......we have a good chance.

I don't think they will turn it around because I don't think Pettine knows what he's doing. He's in way over his head. He doesn't know how to prepare or motivate a team. He needs this year to learn and gain experience as much as Johnny.

Man, if I were Haslam, I'd tell Pettine to play Johnny and no matter what he's safe.

I have a feeling the ups and downs of a young quarterback probably scared him into starting McCown. Pettine probably knows that he's gotta get to at least 7 wins to survive. For the record I don't buy that Jimmy said he isn't going to blow things up after the season, it's pretty easy to say that in July.

Another ugly game like today and it may be up to Johnny to save his job. Sad to say.

The Good: I did not get to see the game because it wasn't on in Youngstown, and I didn't feel like going to a bar and sipping Diet Pepsi.

Anyone else notice Bademosi got time at CB over an active Justin Gilbert? Good grief this team has problems.

I have heard that Mike is still pissed about how Johnny acted last year and wants no part of Johnny. Mike is an old school type coach and Johnny is still way in his dog house. If Johnny gets the start in the future he will most likely be handcuffed (playbook wise) because Mike has already made up his mind about him. Instead of molding the offense around Johnny's attributes they will try to fit a square peg in a round hole and then throw their hands up and say "see we knew all the time".

I have no faith right now in this franchise, and when they fire Mike who can we get to replace him? Another Coordinator that would not get a shot anywhere else.

Rinse...Repeat.

I would certainly hope that is not the case. I would hope that Pettine is smarter than that.

One thing that stuck out for me was when one of the reporters asked Pettine about whether the team has played up to "words into action", and Pettine said, simply, "based on today, no."

You think I LIKE this? You think I like changing GM's and HC's every year or two? I don't. Not one damned bit. But until we find a GM that knows his ass from a hole in the ground, and until we find a HC that can light a fire under some of these guys, it is what it is. Pettine has done nothing at all to impress me. He's supposed to know defense. If that were true one would think the Browns could actually PLAY defense. I sure haven't seen that to the be the case....

I would LOVE for us to find a GM that can build a championship team and keep him in the job for decades. I would kill for a HC that can get the most out of his guys and can out think the other guy. Sign him to a ten year deal and be done with it....

Unfortunately, we aren't there. Unfortunately, we are a LONG way from that. About as far as is possible....

Yup.

Maybe it's because Bademosi is doing really well and not because Gilbert is doing really bad.

When Bademosi is not your last option to put in at CB, then there are issues. Another great draft pick in Gilbert. Hitting on a few of your low round picks and some UDFAs do not offset blowing all of those picks in rounds 1-3. These team will never get better at this rate. I hope we find someone new to handle the #1 overall pick this next draft.

how sad is it when recalling our 1st round draft picks lately:

Phil Taylor (yeah Julio Jones doesn't look good)
Trent Richardson
Brandon Weeden
Barkevious Mingo
Justin Gilbert (yeah Odell Beckham doesn't look good)
Johnny Manziel (yeah Derek Carr doesn't look good)
Danny Shelton
Cam Erving ("74 has reported as eligible")

GOOD:

-Eh, not a whole lot... but

-Second half we started to open the playbook up. Seemed like we had some pretty big gains on 1st down passing...
-McCown was able to make some really good reads and throws for 3rd down conversions
-Hartline had an AWESOME catch!
-Nice TD by Barnidge

BAD:
-Joe Haden
-No pressure from the DEF
-Too many easy long gains for the RAiders

UGLY:
-With the exception of 1or 2 players, we have the SAME DAMN defense as last year.. in the SAME damn scheme... and they look worse! How is that possible??!!


Touching on a couple points in this thread:
-McCown vs. Manziel: MAYBE Johnny hits a couple more long balls, but does Johnny hit those key 3rd down completions?

-McCowns poorer pocket awareness I think had more to do with him actually listening when he was told not to run. He looked good on the roll out throw to BArnidge for the TD. But past that, he didn't move around too much for most of the game. I think more bootlegs or at least moving the pocket would have been better.

-As to the "buying in to their own hype" comment by Pet... I don't think he was talking about any press clippings or news reports. I think he was talking about the player's own comments about themselves and the defense, and probably things he's heard from them behind the scenes.

Pretty much what I dedcuted going into this week. There's a lot of rift in the entire org once again

Pettine vs Farmer
Johnny vs most of the team
Haslam vs (I guess) all

Pretty much the definition of dysfunctional. Pettine isn't playing A LOT of Farmer's picks. No Manziel, no Gilbert, no Orchard, no Erving.
Manziel is a BIG locker room divider, which could have been anticipated. If he was selected by Haslam, then you know where the source of the problem is.
Bad owner, bad GM, bad HC, not even the coordinators look like anything worth keeping. this might be the lowest of lows, and thats saying something.

definitely agree with you here ... Pettine and Farmer have a clear divide (whether or not it originated with the texting I don't know).

Haslem is basically in over his head, as is Farmer, as is Pettine, as are the coordinators, as are the QBs, etc.

It's a pretty bad situation IMO

I think there is definitely a divide in the locker room over Manziel, but that's the organization's fault, not Manziel's. They need to get behind the guy, tell the vets to shut the eff up, and if they don't like it, hit the bricks. I'm tired of Joe Thomas being our GM and coach.

The problems with Pettine run very deep. He's in way over his head. He thinks talking about something will just automatically make it happen. And the vets know Pettine is a vet friendly coach and they take advantage of that. He actually told his players they missed an opportunity yesterday just because they were playing at home and it was the Raiders. He talked like if they just showed up, that would be enough.

It is all so silly and dysfunctional. At least with Farmer you, in black and white, can list his good and bad. It's a little harder to see with Pettine.

If I were running the team, I'd force them to start Manziel and guarantee to Pettine that he will be the coach next year. Farmer, I'd take a wait and see approach. I don't think these guys want to do poorly, they're just learning on the job. That's what happens when you hire first time guys. But if it came to light that Pettine isn't playing Manziel because of his own personal dislike for him or because the vets don't want him to, I'd consider making a change.

I just don't want to start all over again. Although it's tough to see what exactly we are building. When you lose to the Raiders in week 3 after the Raiders traveled three time zones, and look bad doing it, it's tough to see a foundation that's being laid. For me, it's not that we lost, it's the way we lost. Uninspired team playing uninspired football. With a journeyman QB as the future of the franchise.

McCown did a nice job of spreading the ball around getting lots of targets involved.

Haden got owned yesterday by a rookie WR.

THIS OLINE IS THE SOFTEST IN THE AFC NORTH.
you can't have a power running game when your over rated enter and LT are getting stood up and blown backwards.

Defense has zero physical presence.
The Browns LBS are as a whole not very intimidating
Or agile.

I get that you don't want to start over yet again, but to me you're forcing "continuity" where there just isn't any common ground left. You're backing the wrong horse for the sake of continuity.

And with Manziel, while we dont know even half the stories, there HAS TO be something up with his character/pesonality/work ethic. It's not just Joe Thomas or Pettine, who btw, I consider both to be fair characters with a backbone, we aren't talkning hypocrits here. And again, it's not only them, so you saying it's the org's fault and not Manziel's is really stretching the fanboy thing, and again, I think your mixing up victim and offender.

Me thinks the only one's backing Manziel at this point are Haslam and/or Farmer, or who ever was behind the pick. There were rumblings that they were close to flat out release Manziel in the offseason, then he was retained. The rift was already there and don't think team mates don't get word of stuff like this. Where there's smoke...
A big part of the locker room was done with Johnny last season, and there are reasons for it. We don't know them, but if the majority of the vets and coaches, who were/are closest to him, felt that way...man Rish, it's hard to defend the guy anymore, isn't it?

I'll be frank and honest. I think Manziel's a spoiled, smart-arse hypocrit with a forked tongue and the locker room has picked up on that. He's ME above the TEAM. He says all the right things in front of the camera and then he lets his guys down by not putting in the time to learn the play book? What a douche. How do you think some of those late round guys making 500k for the season take to this? Or vets who needed 5 years to collect what Manziel got on signing day? You guessed right: ZERO respect and tons of disrespect.

Consider this, when the fans chanted for his name, it seemed some of those vets toughed it out to keep it from happening. Guys like Hartline and Barnidge stepped up in critical situations and took hard hits all of a sudden. Normally, when those chants start, you see a comical downward spiral in performance, kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. But it seemed to spark them, that was very strange to witness.

If and ONLY IF Haslam truly will let Pettine grow over time and has privately told him he's safe this year and even next...then maybe this all starts to make sense.

With JM having a disaster of a rookie season and then going into rehab, my guess is that Pettine told him something along the lines of "Listen kid...we are going to treat this like your rookie year all over again. You get a second chance. Learn the system. Be prepared. Learn from McCown. Earn respect. Do all those things and you have a chance to earn the job in 2016. Right now, you are the backup."

Knowing how stubborn these guys are to "sticking to their plans", they are probably hell bent on letting JM sit and learn while McCown does his best out there. Maybe the original plan was for JM to sit in 2014 to compete in 2015 but that has been delayed a year.

Again, this ONLY makes sense if Haslam is all in on this plan too and has Pettine on a longer leash than we may think. If this is the case, then the team has a future vision and I'm ok with it.

Otherwise...we are going to start all over again next year. *face palm*

You want to continue to hold Manziel accoutable for last year and you want the organization to do the same as well. When can we let that go and move on? Particularly in light of the fact that he has made an effort to change. I can get it if there was no effort at all on his part to change, but there has been. Show me one report from THIS year that Manziel is still the same guy from last year. There are several reports to the contrary.

Besides, you should be in favor of playing Manziel. This team is going nowhere with McCown. Can we agree on that? Let's give Manziel his shot. It won't be worse than McCown so what's the difference? You can't blame Manziel for the unprepared, uninspied play of the entire team yesterday because they got their wish...McCown as the starter...and the entire team looked like they'd rather be watching at home. How is that Manziel's fault?

And you're ok with scrubs like Barnidge and Hartline laying down for Manziel and playing hard for McCown because the crowd was hurting his feelings and that's their guy? Play hard all the time regardless of who's out there or get the eff off the team. Pettine shouldn't condone that behavior, he should be pissed about it.

If you're right about Manziel, it will prove itself out on the field.

j\c to Arch till we get it RIGHT

Who are these Vets that are so important ? There is not a player on this roster that I wouldn't trade for a draft pick ( Vet ) not one !

One more time --- PETTINE IS THE SAME ROUND PEG / SQUARE HOLE COACH we continue to bring in .. His " D '" scheme sucks or we don't have the players to execute it , but we still run it .. Run the ball smash mouth " O " , don;t have the right players or scheme , but we do what ?

I could care less who in this Pansy locker room likes Manziel .. I , with my own eyes saw WR open deep and Josh miss them time after time .. I saw times when John would have slid out of the pocket and maybe kept a drive alive .. And this comes from a not so big Manziel fan

They say a team emulates it's Coach ; Well ?

You expect McCown to get better the more he plays?

Good thing we have no historical data to lean on.

I think Dwayne Bowe being a healthy scratch yesterday was a twist of the knife by Pettine. When (not if - when) Bowe is released, I think Farmer's fate will be sealed. As it should be.



I don't necessarily think the vets don't like Manziel. I think they don't believe in him. I think they look at him and think "No. I just can't see it." I've heard radio yackers and read posters here saying that Manziel would have drove us to the win had he played yesterday. But what I saw were some hits on McCown that would have gotten Manziel carted off the field. McCown absorbed a vicious blind-side hit yesterday and was sacked. I can almost guarantee that same shot on Manziel would have resulted in a.) an injured Manziel and b.) a fumble. These Browns' vets are pros, despite what we think of their peformances, and they are savvy enough to know that Manziel, with that small frame is not going be able to stay on the field long enough to be a viable NFL starter.

Dave, really good post, and you may be right, but let's see it with our own eyes.

Play Manziel. There's nothing to lose by doing it.

Them totally neglecting the WR in the draft, selecting someone who lead the college game with drops that year and a virtual total project while paying an astronomical bundle of guaranteed cash to a veteran who's not even practicing is just a sad story.

It's difficult, even when you put hatred and etc aside, to support Ray Farmer these days. My eyes and etc tell me he's set us back us back pretty hardcore.

Not just the horrible loss talking here, but if Farmer comes back from suspension to a termination letter, I'd support it.

Yep, I do. Make no mistake, McCown left a few plays on the field yesterday, but he was 28/49 for 341 yards, 2 td's, 1 INT. Not great stats but good, certainly good enough to win a lot games. As he continues to get to 'know" his receivers, he will get better, I'm certain...

Having said what I said, I agree with you. There's no reason to continue this charade of McCown giving us the best chance to win. We have to find out for sure what we have or don't have in Manziel so we can be prepared to move forward next draft. If the vets don't get that, too bad.