DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pet on the QB Situation

I know alot of people on the West Coast, many who are the fans of the Oakland Radiers including my son. Heard many of them say they were very relieved to hear JM was not starting Sunday.

jc

Offense points by game:

Week 1: 10p vs Jets, QB Manziel
Week 2: 21p vs Titans, QB Manziel
Week 3: 20p vs Raiders, QB McCown

QB position is still a problem, but it wasn't the main reason the Browns lost yesterday. Lack of a run game and lack of a run defense, or defense at all, were the main one's.

This.

If we go into next season not knowing a lot more about JFF than we do now, then it is a completely wasted season. We are not making the playoffs, we need to get something out of this season. Even if it just knowing how bad we need a different QB.

Missed Travis three times. Each of the three looked like Travis had steps and would've put up six points. First one Josh underthrew, second he overthrew and the third, the final one INT at the end, well you all know.

Then he missed Gary a bunch, one of those was a totally open pass in the endzone. I can literally go on.

Please Mike, explain to us how Josh *gives us the best chance to win?*

I think we're dying to hear it...

McCown didn't lose the game yesterday, but a better QB performance could have won it. He had a lot over inaccurate throws. But, like you said, the rest of the team was miserable.

If you can't throw the deep ball in the NFL, you will not be successful, on top of the horrible deep balls, he couldn't throw another staple nfl throw with the slant...he might throw the worst slant of any qb we've had in recent memory...those are the throws that you can get your little guys with the ball with a chance to gets some YAC, but none of that happened. I didn't see a single throw or read that made me think, oh yeah i can see why we stayed with him over manziel, I did see several scenarios where JM would have more than likely made the play.

I know it sounds like it but I'm not a huge JM fan, I'm proud of the kid for putting in the work and he did some amazing things in college, I want him to be the guy, but its still early. I think I would have went with a bigger guy in our division, but to watch what he have, I rather take my lumps with a guy who has upside.

I would be glad to if I could have taped the game. It was not on in this area and I had to watch it at a bar. I do remember a lot of bad passes and I mean A LOT of them. I will be glad to point out his mistakes after his next game that is on in this area Vers.

WE don't need to know anything. But the Coaching staff needs to know and they need to get it right.

Because Mike thinks so. Case closed. LOL

Problem is, we already know. We know that McCown is not the long term answer and it's seriously debatable if he even gives us the best chance to win in the short term.

If the staff is 100% certain that Manziel is NOT the answer, then put him in the game, let him crash and burn so the fans will shut up and we can all get excited about our shiny new QB toy next year... maybe we can get Luke McCown in FA...

The coaching staff doesn't care about the fans shutting up, nor should they. Otherwise, they would have put Manziel in yesterday when many of the fans were chanting for him. The coaching staff sees Manziel in practice every day and know what he is and isn't capable of. They have a plan in place and are sticking to it. They know what they want to see from Johnny and clearly haven't seen it yet.

They can't get it right if they don't know that Manziel has more of a highlight reel already in just a hand full of starts then Josh McCown has in a 12 year career now can they?

I kept saying to myself, "Those should have been Johnny's throws!" ...He would have probably made them. (Grrr! )

Thank you I know. And to add to our defense woes, our Oline is inconsistent and give up on plays way too early and too often.

JM can extend the play and throw deep to end the constant insanity of opposing defenses stacking the box week in and week out.

It's the same as it was last year after Mack went down.

I was a afraid of this scenario going into this season, but have been told by most posters here our oline is fine with no concerns, so they most know.

Our offensive line has been excellent at pass blocking and average (at best) at run blocking for awhile now.

J/C ....

I am not going to go haywire after only one game, but one of the reasons given for McCown over Manziel is the fumbles Manziel had. However, McCown fumbled yesterday, and has 2 fumbles in one game and one drive.

In some respects, McCown had an OK game for a guy returning from injury ..... but the lack of an ability to hit the available big plays is a major concern. It is great to grind out long drives, but you must hit those big plays over the top when they present themselves. Long drives are hard to sustain over the course of a game. Generally speaking, a team has been successful if they have a couple of 80 yard, 15 yard plays .... but it is hard to do that over the course of 3, 4, or more drives. One mistake derails your entire drive, and can bring it to an early end. I understand, and approve of the idea of being able to physically impose our will on the other team, but we also much hit those big plays. I look at how Manziel was able to see, and connect with Benjamin, on plays that really broke the Titans' backs. I do not see that with McCown. (I know, observation of the week there)

I am stunned that the veterans are said to prefer McCown to Manziel. I understand that McCown has experience, and knows the offense, but he just does not have the physical ability and skills that Manziel has already shown. I also don't get the whole "McCown gives us the best chance to win", because while he can get hot, his hot is making short throws, not game changers. McCown has, as many have said, had one good season in his career. I understood the reasons for bringing him in, as we had no idea what growth Manziel would show this year, but it is apparent that Manziel has, indeed, grown. Unless he is some kind of total ..... umm ..... different player and teammate (not wanting to use a really rude word) in practice and such than he is on the field, then I just don't get it.

Man, I seem to recall that the Raiders came into yesterday's game with the worst defense in the NFL. They had no sacks coming into yesterday's game. They might be the league leader now. (an intentional overstatement for the sake of irony) This was the perfect game to allow Manziel to continue his growth. Unfortunately, Pettine went with McCown, and like I said earlier, I understood his reasons ...... but I think that the coaches need to look at what McCown actually brings to the field, and what Manziel could bring if they play him.

By excellent I think you mean the best they can with 8 in the box. And with run blocking it's the same by average you must mean the best they can with no real lead out run blocking RB to speak of on the team.

IMO the Oline get's exhausted and dejected as the game goes on.

No. More often than not, our offensive line gives the QB plenty of time to throw the ball.

Peyton Manning. Nuff said.

You're right, we already know Manziel is terrible. We also know McCown is NOT our long term answer either, but we had to have SOMEBODY QB the team this year. It wasn't going to be pretty any way we sliced it. Might as well go with a journeyman vet who can at least be a professional and understands he's only keeping the seat warm.



You do realize the #1 goal of the coaches/team is NOT so the "fans will shut up and get excited" right? I mean...right? It's about the men in the locker room and their livelihoods. Fans are great and all but the team doesn't exist to please the whims/fancies of the fans.

Great. Now we're supposed to make franchise defining decisions based on our YouTube / ESPN highlight / instant gratification culture we live in? No thanks.

I couldn't care less about "highlight reel" plays. I want a professional. A student of the game. A leader. A competitor. Somebody the team can get behind and rally around.

McCown checks all those boxes. He just, unfortunately, isn't very good. It is what it is.

When the team plays the way it did yesterday, that has nothing to do with locker room and livelihoods.

And what locker room exactly? This team is the worst team in the NFL, 32 out of 32. What locker room are we talking about? You guys with your locker room stuff. You act like the locker room is some untouchable thing. Don't upset the locker room or you might not make the playoffs! Not on a team that is the 32nd best team in the league out of 32.

It can't get worse than it is. But let's worry about the locker room of which most of the players likely don't give a damn anyway.

The "locker room" is for all the anti-Manziel guys. You guys should be begging Pettine to put Manziel in. Begging. If you are as right as you think you are, you'll get to have the last laugh.

Why aren't the anti-Manziel guys begging for this?

What?

This is an awful team. They played awful for the first 2.5-3 quarters yesterday. That wasn't (or at least shouldn't have been) shocking to anyone. At least they battled and came back and made a game of it. Enjoy the small victories.

Yesterday's game doesn't mean anything with respect to personnel and playing decisions. Those are still made based on the people in the building, the men in the locker room and the livelihood of all individuals involved.

The coaches are going to play the guys who put in the work and excel in the weight room, in meetings, in film sessions and on the practice field. They're going to play the guys who they like, respect and trust. And ultimately they're going to play the guys who will do their jobs on Sundays as best as possible so that they all remain employed. No doubt in my mind McCown is the answer to all the above criteria.

But no, the fans clamoring or internet boards blowing up or call-in shows going crazy.....means literally nothing (as it should).

Thankfully we haven't succumbed to the fan "pressure" so far or this franchise is so much worse than even I give it credit for.

Because this team and franchise are about more than just Johnny Manziel. I don't know why so many people refuse to get that.

Too many people keep looking at the deep balls McCown missed on and say "Gee, Johnny would have hit those". He very well might have, but the game was more than 3 or 4 plays.

The real question which no one is answering is what Johnny would have done in between those big throws.

Does he make some of those long 3rd down conversions that were key in the attempted come back?

How much of the playbook does he actually have a grasp of compared with McCown? It's fine and dandy to say that you're fine with him taking his lumps and the ups and downs.. but if his command of the book is limited, he's only being set up for failure.

But to be fair, I don't know the answer to either of those questions.

One final comment before I get down, but this whole nonsense posters are trying to gin up about Pet having some sort of dislike or personal axe to grind and that's why Johnny isn't playing is just plain stupid. He may not love the kid, but it makes much more sense that he's actually looking out for Johnny's best interest more than the posters here are. The kid, and yes, he is a kid, was a raging alcoholic last year and before that. Reportedly he received quality treatment, but the last thing anyone should want to happen is that Johnny ties his sobriety to his football success.

Like the whims/fancies of winning. Yeah I get it now.

Serious question. How can this franchise get much worse?

You also seem ok with putting their season into the hands of a perennial loser because he works hard. So does my washing machine.

Do you want wins or do you want to play favorites because you don't like Manziel? Your options are a guaranteed losing season with McCown or the unknown with Manziel? If wins was your objective, which one would you choose to try and obtain that objective?

McCown checks all the boxes except winning. LOL.

Somewhere there are executives who do care about the fans showing up... and every week you read about more and more fans who just have lost the will to care...


That plan to run the ball and play good defense? Yea, how's that working out? From what I've seen in 3 games we need a QB who can create and make plays.. and I don't think that's McCown, in fact, he didn't even make a number of the plays that were there to be had.

Manziel is going to make mistakes, but I still think he gives us a fighting chance. Yesterday, McCown reminded me a lot of Brandon Weeden.

I've noticed that BOTH the QB's tend to hold the ball way too long. Lots of the attempts on longer plays downfield, they're either not seeing things soon enough or they're waiting until the receiver comes WAAAY open before they throw the ball, and this so far (more than not) has resulted in the balls being underthrown (had they been thrown "on time" it would have been the perfect distance to throw it), or the defenders have had time to recognize and close on the receiver.

The pressure on Manziel on at least the last connection to Benjamin might have been his best friend because it made him just get the ball out of his hands without overthinking things.

I think the announcer said yesterday our receivers were having trouble getting open? That may explain things.

Nonetheless, I wish they'd start Johnny Boy already. I'm done with McCown.

It just amazes me that every year it's the same stuff. You can just change out the names for the coaches, GM's and QB's and this thread would be almost identical to a thread 5 or 10 years ago.

First McCown is not the answer. He was never meant to be the answer. He was the best guy that we could pick up off the scrap pile to fill in till we find the answer. His job is to try not to screw things up too bad. That's it. Anyone expecting more than that is expecting too much.

Next, I knew the moment we drafted JFF, it was one of the worst draft picks we ever made. Not only because of the off field stuff that proved to be true, but because he is a raw, tiny, running QB that needed lots of time to develop and Cleveland fans are stupid enough to demand that he gets put in before he is ready. Now I will say that he is miles away from what he was last year, but he still has miles to go. He seems to have the right attitude now and he may turn into something.

His footwork sucks. He still can't get past the second read. His throwing motion still sucks. If you throw him into the fire, you are hurting his progress and not helping it. If the coaches can get him to a point where good footwork and a good throwing motion are instinct, then he has a chance. He'll only improve making reads on the field after he gets those two things under control first.

There is a reason that we have had 500 freakin QB's, coaches, and GM's here. It's because stupid media/fans start demanding the next one before the first one can get his seat warm.

The factory of sadness has the world's biggest revolving door.

/end-of-rant

I respect you for admitting that you don't know the answers to these questions, because nobody does... but the flip side to this question is.. are we 17 points behind and in need of a heroic comeback with Manziel? Maybe, maybe not.


I don't know if his knowledge of the playbook is limited, he has looked fine so far.... and it doesn't surprise me if McCown looks much better in practice, standing tall in the pocket with his "don't touch me" jersey on throwing darts... that's not Manziel's strength...

Through 3 games...

The Jets are #4 in the NFL in total defense, the Titans are #6, and the Raiders are #32... so after watching Manziel against 2 top 10 defenses and McCown against the worst defense.. shouldn't McCown have looked much better?... and McCown was at home?

Just a general reply, but it ties into your "shouldn't McCown have looked much better?" question.

I didnt' get to actually watch the game yesterday, minus the last 3-4 minutes of it, but I was able to listen while driving home. While listening, and after hearing that the announcers stated that McCown was either high or wide on most of his passes all day, my friend had the thought/theory that perhaps his eyes/judgement still wasn't quite right following the concussion.

The funny part after that was that McCown took another hit and after that his throwing accuracy seemed to improve, which of course drew comparisons to this guy:

Hit him and his eyes go screwy, hit him again and they straighten out


Anyway, he took some big hits yesterday, and it seemed a reasonable thought that taking those hits on the heels of recovering from a concussion might have been enough to throw off his perception a bit.

p.s. this was all just a reason to post a pic of Crazy Eyes

Understatement.
The way they answered each of our scores by simply marching down the field at will was a statement: either they are so much better than us to be able to simply toy with us, or our defense completely laid down.

#rentedMule

I think we beat San Diego. Go on a 6 game losing streak which prompts Pettine to start Manziel after the bye week and a Monday night game against Baltimore in which we win. We beat San Francisco and beat the Steelers the last week of the season. San Diego is our yearly "fluke" win. Baltimore and San Fran suck.


5-11

In his presser today, Pettine said he hoped McCown will learn from his mistakes and get better. You cannot make this stuff up.

He also said "No" when asked if he would consider switching to Manziel.

What is the long-term plan here again?

The commentary over on the OBR indicated that Pettine sounded like a broken man today. I have not personally listened to it yet myself.

I think I'm going to find something else to do with my Sundays.

He knows he is gone after the season. My theory is that he wants to push Haslam/Farmer to fire him, so that everyone sees it was them forcing Manziel on him.

But are we down 17 points because of McCown, or because of the failure of the offense as a whole to execute? And because of the lackluster defensive showing?

I don't know, should McCown have looked better against the Raider's D? Or did their D play better than the #32 D?

Yes McCown over threw a number of balls, some of the mid field throws I think had they been lower the defender had a shot at getting their hands on. But he also made some really nice reads and throws, especially while mounting the attempted comeback in the second half. The last play I think was a good playcall, McCown did his best to look it off, but even if he put a little more air under it, I think the 18yr Vet Woodson still likely makes the play on the ball.

Some are going to roast me as a McCown apologist, but I'm not. I'm just not buying in to the Manziel should play for no other reason than to "see what we got". This team has more leaky holes than any of us expected. We can't fix any of that if we shift our sole focus on Manziel's development. McCown is mediocre, but just as his detractor's state, we know what we have in him. I'd rather have continuity in the form of a HoFer QB, but we have what we have.

Well, that's pretty insane.
If that is anyone's thought process, they deserve to be fired.

Considering our remaining schedule, does McCown give us that much better chance of winning or do we stand a better than not chance of losing to most of these teams and we might as well toss Manziel in there to learn because it sure isn't going to hurt our playoff chances.

Sun, Oct 4 @ Chargers
Sun, Oct 11 @ Ravens
Sun, Oct 18 vs Broncos
Sun, Oct 25 @ Rams
Sun, Nov 1 vs Cardinals
Thu, Nov 5 @ Bengals
Sun, Nov 15@ Steelers
Mon, Nov 30 vs Ravens
Sun, Dec 6 vs Bengals
Sun, Dec 13 vs 49ers
Sun, Dec 20 @ Seahawks
Sun, Dec 27 @ Chiefs
Sun, Jan 3 vs Steelers

I think we have a good shot at the 49ers but the rest of that looks kind of hopeless.