DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Farmer's draft picks, game by game

I had the same concerns about Shelton (they were also well documented).

I am also a person who knows players develop as the season moves along and that they are not a finished product in week three.

What comes to mind is, can organizations do background work to learn if a potential player has issues?

Can they investigate to determine if the player has a "football mentality" a competitive mentality, a determined work ethic, a mean streak, a focus, ... does their personality lead us to believe they will probably be a real professional? Some teams do a real good job in this area. I think we talk a good game.

How many of us think that Gilbert had a reputation as a hard nosed, hard working guy who loves football? What comes to mind is an article I read where a team was looking at drafting Justin Blackmon. So they sent their scout and he just hung out at the popular bar near OK State. After a couple days they had all the info they needed on him.

We did draft the wrong guys, but was it because we were "unlucky"? Did we do our homework?

What comes to mind... This is an organization that showed up to work out Johnny Manziel and didn't have a football with them. (Fact. Its in that QB book The Making of Modern Quarterbacks.)

In sports, we often make our own luck through being prepared. I like you and DC bringing up the "McKenzie has bounced back" angle, but... I'm uneasy with giving Farmer another draft.

Earlier I posted that thought "our talent is better than it was a few years ago"

I should have thought that out a little more.

I want to retract that.

Uneasy is how I would put it as well. I'm just not willing to throw Farmer under the bus during week three. The evidence we have as of right now is not in his favor, but many things can change over the course of the next fourteen weeks.

As far as Manziel. We all knew the red flags. The organization chose to ignore them. I don't think anyone could have predicted Gilbert's problems off the field.

I'm willing to give Danny Shelton more time, his effort is always at 110% and he seems to occupy blockers as advertised...remember Chiefs DT Poe only looked rather poor his rookie year...Hard to gauge those really big massive fatties...Simply because you will never see them getting 15 sacks a year or nothing too flashy...Thus far our defense seems to be the same as last years...that's not good

I predicted this year Dansby was going to fall flat this year...Guy has a ton of football wear and tear on his body...Kruger is stiff and slow and so far isn't getting tot he QB, then again I haven't seen him rush a lot either? Robertson/Kirksey regressed...Mingo is an absolute bust...theres our invisible LB crew...I cant say I've studied the defensive line front...but they seem to be invisible as well....Heck nearly every play the tackle is being made by our secondary....We have a horribly in effective and slow front 7 (Shelton, Kruger, Hughes, Mingo, Dansby...are awfully slow...Shelton to his defense is nearly 360 lbs, Kruger cant run nor change directions, Hughes looks two steps slower than Desmond Bryant...Dansby has lost a couple steps since I watched him religiously with the Dolphins, Mingo is so lost and indecisive that his speed is slowed severely...Not saying speed is our biggest problem, but think about it we have a slow stiff near invisible front 7...Secondary cant cover because we cant give them a break by applying pressure.

I think you make a good point about the secondary. They are getting ripped a lot. I think somewhat unfairly.

They are being put in some tough situations schematically. Asking Whit to cover Cooper in the slot is idiotic. Of course he is going to get fried. What SS wouldn't?

We are not only asking our secondary to cover one on one for long periods of time, we are also then asking them to come and stop the RBs who have a full head of steam because our d-line and Lbers are not slowing them down.

Farmer has made our DL worse. The secondary is taking the blame for it.

j/c:

State of the Cleveland Browns: Ray Farmer

With Cleveland Browns fans feeling disappointed, our OBR staff came together to give our thoughts on the State of the Browns. We started with HC Mike Pettine now we move on to GM Ray Farmer.

Ray Farmer has had 2 offseasons to develop the team via free agency and the NFL Draft. What do you think he has done well? What is your concern about Farmer the GM?

Jared - I still believe in the model that Farmer is building around. Build the interior of the team and the defense first. I also think he and I agree that getting “playmakers” doesn’t really matter if you don’t have a QB to throw to them. However, I do have some concern that he overreacted to character issues from last year and went safe this year. Neither extreme is a good one. He can see talent certainly but finding complete stars is another question.

Barry - As much as I wanted to get behind Ray Farmer’s tenure as GM, some of his decisions lead to questions that may not have great answers. The most crucial question to me is whether Farmer was guided by ownership during the 2014 draft, or if he was impacted by a lack of preparation due to the lateness and chaos of the off-season. Clearly his top picks that draft have been underperforming (or in the case of Justin Gilbert not performing at all) while other available players have quickly progressed to stardom. Dwayne Bowe has essentially been a $9 million hood ornament for Farmer’s roster, and the team was swinging and missing all off-season in the chase for free agents. Some of the latter, of course, has to do with organizational dysfunction rather than Farmer’s performance specifically. To me, Johnny Manziel holds the key to Farmer’s future. If he performs this season, the 2014 draft doesn’t look like the disaster it appeared to be, and might be enough to save his job. Right now, though, his immediate future looks grim.

Lane - Farmer’s vision of wanting ‘football’ players is solid. Farmer’s methods in securing those types leaves the Browns in a precarious position. Continued subpar to failures in the selection of high draft picks leaves the cupboard rather bare -- and the GM of the Browns does not display the interest in obtaining play-maker types to enable the strength of the team. To date, the overall job done by Farmer has been mediocre and incomplete.

Andrea - I do see what Farmer is getting at, but he’s also doing the wrong things, like not stockpiling draft picks in the future and spending unnecessary money. Granted, the cash isn’t a big deal given the cap space the Browns have—and don’t have anyone to spend it on. The character issues are a big deal to me, though. No, “they can’t all be choir boys,” but do they have to be me-firsters with substance abuse problems, too?

Rick - What has he done well? That’s a pretty interesting question. I can’t say that his free agency decisions are really working out well, but free agents rarely seem to live up to expectations. Tramon Williams is the exception there. The Bowe contract is looking really bad right now. Of course I’m supposed to be looking for positives. I like that he spends late round draft picks on players that need to recover from injuries but have much more potential. Both Desir and Ifo are in that category.

Fred - You just cannot continually pass on playmakers. Fundamentally, you build through the lines but when you have five offensive lineman drafted as highly as they were, an undrafted free agent should be able to run behind them (forgot they have one). Players like Adrian Peterson and Le’Veon Bell seem to be able to run the ball no matter who is in front of them. The same goes for receivers and cannot believe the disdain for playmakers that Farmer has bypassed the last two years. The signing of Dwayne Bowe and drafting of Vince Mayle are catastrophic to date. You have to hit on your draft picks, particularly your first rounders and the two first round picks of the last two seasons there is only one of the four starting.
Hayden - It doesn’t seem as though Ray Farmer can evaluate talent… period. The Browns are one of the least talented teams in football and haven’t drafted a single player with an extremely high talent level in Farmer’s tenure. Passing on receivers left and right has left him with Brian Hartline and Andrew Hawkins as his premier pass catchers, while Dwayne Bowe sits in the locker room, counting his $9 million. Ray Farmer has been far more of an issue than Mike Pettine, but both will more than likely be shown the door at the same time when this season comes to an end.

http://www.scout.com/nfl/browns/story/1594837-state-browns-ray-farmer

They're all bozos. Farmer is building this team the right way.

So, you didn't read the article.

Farmer is out to prove he's smarter than the other 31 GMs in the NFL.
he has no idea what the league is evolving into.
yet he doesn't even know how to put together a power running game.
he has finese zone blocking o-linemen.
a starting RB who isn't a bulldozer nor is he a threat to break a long run.
he over paid for a WR who reached his ceiling 4 years ago.

In a word...GENIUS. LMAO

Farmer's seat is in nuclear meltdown.

The horror show continues...

Danny Shelton, his latest first round bust, played only 42% of the snaps, 27 plays. He did not record a tackle, not even an assist, no pressure, nothing. That's your Ray Ray top 15 draft pick for you

His other first rounder, was perfect warming the bench. He was in on 2 plays, probably the GL plays, helping getting no push at the LOS yet again.

Nate Orchard was the next pick in the middle of the 2nd rd. He played 25 snaps, probably doubling his season total and he also doubled his output, delivering a double-nothing. Oh, he had one assisted tackle. He probably had to act as if he played football there jumping on a pile or somehting like that.

Justin Gilbert is officially the 6th CB on the depth chart, probably no7 when the genius IR-ret tagged Gaines returns. He's only still on the team, because nobody wants to hurt Ray's feelings and his contract doesn't allow to get cut, so he's probably best buds with D.Bowe by now.

And now guess who made an impact in the game, two of the picks I really liked, DT Cooper and RB Duke Johnson.
Seriously, go back to the draft archives and read my takes on this draft class. I wrote this right after the 3rd round:

"Cooper has more upside than any player we picked and along with Johnson will have the most impact"

I distinctly recall one play where they ran it right up the gut and there was only one guy on Danny, and the back blew right by him. I'm sorry, but on those plays as a nose tackle, there's no reason to give that play up ever. That should've been cake walk.

Sad to have witnessed.

Just for fun, more post-draft comments from me. This one from May 1st:

Shelton will be in a rotation, since he doesn't have the stamina and pass rush skills for three downs and Erving will be on the bench if no one gets injured. Guess how that will look like, lol. People complain about Taylor, but at least Taylor flashed talent.

Shelton is a carbon copy of Hughes. There I said it. Gives effort, will get better and be a decent player, but NOT a difference maker.

Oh and Erving, a project OL that doesn't look totally lost at all spots but hasn't mastered any yet. Has no clue of schemes in front of him playing C, complete project there. You can see numerous blitzers up the gut come in untouched on tape. Lack of experience is showing. Of course this experience will come at the Browns expense yet again and in bunches of losses, be prepared for a gigantic downgrade from Mack. And what part of you don't draft C in round one didn't you get Ray? It already got two of your predecessors fired, lol

You'll be next, rest assured, after that scared 1st round

As for day 2. RB will probably be the best value at 43, but Ray probably overrated the two minions he brought in last draft as most on here do

BPA is Ronald Darby, but that would be admitting mistake with Gilbert, so it won't happen.

---------------

Ronald Darby after four games is one of the best CBs in the entire league...

Oh what could have been...

Where's a pat myself on the back emoji when a guy needs one?

You should float your resume out to teams.

Pursue your dreams. That's what I'll be telling my kids when they get older. Pursue those dreams.

DJ, you can do this. Don't let anything stand in your way.

I'll be sending you a copy of Rudy to keep you inspired.

Best I could do.

Barry Horowitz. LOL. Classic!

Best part is the hand imprint is backwards. LOL.

Yes Danny looked like crap. However you still love rushing to judgement.

Nate did nothing, Gilbert once again seems like a waisted pick right now.

I have no problem with your assesments so far. What we disagree on is Your rush to judgement IMO, and my preaching patients IYO

jc

You know there's no hope, when an article with the headline "Reason for hope for all 32 teams" has this to say about your team

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/11/12/reason-for-hope-for-all-32-nfl-teams/

Cleveland Browns

As a receiver, rookie third-rounder Duke Johnson has caught 89.7 percent of targets, forced 10 missed tackles and has 287 YAC. He is PFF’s second-ranked receiving running back in the NFL.

Unfortunately for Browns fans there aren’t a whole lot of stats that shed positive light on 2015 or the near future. Johnson’s receiving skills are certainly a bright spot however, and should be a staple of the offense for years to come.

2 years, 2 drafts with multiple top 100 picks and our best hope is a 3rd down RB. Yikes!

A third down RB who excels at catching the ball and who doesn't play in the second half, even though we abandon the run.

thought Isiah and Johnson 1750 totals yards FIRE farmer.
Bitiono and desir two draft picks that get second contracts.
Erving insurance for when mack walks.
Not great but not FIRING material remember lombardi
How about 85,000,000 in salaries that banner payed and farmers team is judged by them.
The biggest mistake farmer made was not trading KRUEGER last year and going all in on suh.

6 pro bowlers

Kruger's contract would make it very hard to trade him. Plus, Suh has been a disaster in Miami; he would have fit even worse in our defense.

Six pro bowlers? Yeah, from a year or two ago. Name me even three on our roster that will make the probowl this year.

Kruger's contract is very easy to get rid of after this season. He will probably be cut.

duke is having a better rookie campaign than emmit smith so duke is better than Emmitt farmer must be a genius.
Projected stats isiah and duke 1700 yards for a 3rd round pick.
YOUR solution Fire farmer
BY the way this just a friendly debate I am enjoying your points
thoroughly

1 thomas
2 duke
3benji
4 barnidge
5wright
now answer my question how does a gm over come 85,000,000
against the salary cap and get 3 sacks out of them and expect to contend?

Can anyone interpret this last post of his?

It appears to be a tale of two replies in one post.




----------------------------------------------------------------

WORST PLAYERS AT EVERY POSITION THIS SEASON

Fullback: Malcolm Johnson, Browns, 30.5

There are many that call the fullback a dead position in the NFL. It’s true that many teams no longer employ a traditional fullback in their offense, aside from short-yardage plays. The Browns are one of the teams still using a fullback fairly regularly, although it’s not clear why. Johnson is our lowest-graded fullback, and it isn’t even close. He’s been essentially useless in run blocking, which is about the only thing fullbacks are really used for. In 136 snaps, he’s made just four positively-graded plays. That’s not a lot.

................

Defensive interior – ends: Xavier Cooper, Browns, 42.5, and Ricardo Mathews, San Diego Chargers, 44.1

Cooper has struggled slightly more against the run (40.8 grade) than rushing the passer (45.4), although neither grade is very good. He’s made only four run stops all year, for a very low run stop percentage of just 4.8. In terms of pass rushing, he’s recorded just two hurries all season. He’s posted below-average grades in every game except for one, in which he was exactly average.

...................

Cornerbacks: Brandon Browner, Saints, 26.7, and Joe Haden, Browns, 32.3

Haden hasn’t played in many games this year, but when he has, the Browns would have been better off with him not suiting up. Haden is averaging just 6.2 cover snaps per reception, which is the fourth-lowest in the NFL. What’s more, his 2.60 yards per cover snaps allowed is the most in the NFL. Quarterbacks targeting Haden are 24-for-31 for 387 yards and four touchdowns. That’s a QB rating of 158.2. Quarterbacks in the NFL this season have been 0.1 point off of being absolutely perfect throwing at Joe Haden.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/11/11/pro-pffs-midseason-all-worst-team/

Cooper only knows the 3 technique from college. He doesn't quite have the height to play the 5 totally, but in a hybrid D like ours he's a perfect choice to mix the two. Looks like he's struggling with two gap stuff right now and that is normal. He is a smart kid, so I'm hoping the light comes on in that department soon. His penetration skills seem to have progressed since week 1, so I see no reason why the rest won't get sorted out. It's a different skill set, so it takes time.

I'd rather have Kitchen and Winn over Cooper.

I second that. Cooper belongs on ST's at best at this point. I do agree with Deputy though, I think there is upside.

What team is Kitchen on? Winn was gone at the end of the season.

I was against drafting Shelton as well and I love all Pac-12 players irrationally.

It seems to me that no matter who we draft in the first few rounds most of them don't pan out. You think coaching has something to do with it?

I would be remiss if I did not point out Davante Parker, a lot of people including myself thought he was the guy for us. He has been a colossal failure to this point in the season, even more so than our two picks by a long shot.