DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Do Browns see light at end of tunnel?

But then again, if there isn't at least SOME improvement this year, Opie won't be here to see what happens in '08 and beyond... and if you don't understand that Opie realizes that, then it is YOUR logic that is flawed.

There will be improvement but you won't see it instantly..nor is Rac outta here this early..
That would mean Randy doesn't understand(nor the fans) that when you add rookies, and new FA's it take a bit of time to gell..

In that your logic isn't sound..we were already young and inexperienced ..now how many more youngsters were added?
And Peen citing NO's is not logical as they added a lot of FA's..low cost FA's not ton of draft choices..nor did they have the injuries we had..

Suppose Bentley never got hurt?
What would that Oline look like now?
What if Baxter never got hurt?
U know Phil could have addressed the Dline in the draft instead of moving a pick to get a starting CB..
He coulda taken a CB but he wouldn't have HAD to trade back up to get one.

Diam, what you and ddubia say is all true. I cannot dispute what has happened to the Browns since '99. Nor would I try. That does not change the fact that, in my opinion, (and I am far from the only person who thinks this) if the Browns do not hit the .500 mark this year Romeo will be gone by February 2008. And, honestly, I doubt I would be griping about that decision. I am not a lifelong Browns fan like some on here. But I've been a fan long enough to be tired of the losing. And I don't expect miracles. Hell, just winning 6 home games would make me ecstatic.

Romeo wins and he stays. We fall lower than 7-9 this year and I guarantee you he'll get fired. Fair or not. It's fish or cut bait time. I like Romeo. I think he's a good coach. The jury is still out on whether he's a good Head coach. This year will give us the answer, I hope.

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And I don't expect miracles. Hell, just winning 6 home games would make me ecstatic.

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6 home wins .. is that all??? *LOL* ...

and those two sentances back to back are very soup or menZa esque my friend .. they don't correalate real well .. *L*

u may be right he may be gone without 7 or 8 wins ..,, i think basing it on wins and losses at this point is the WRONG WAY TO GO . we dotn have the TALENT YET to compete .. actually we more than likely for the first time since our return have the talent but it needs to get some EXPERIENCE first ...

personally we could win 8 games and i may think he should be fired and he could win 4 games and i could think he should stay ... it depends on what happens and how the team is prepared and plays more than its about w's and l's ..

if i were Randy barring unforseen circumstances or a complete loss of control
hed definetly be given another year ...

were ALL SICK OF LOSING MY FRIEND ... but that shouldn't have SQUAT TO DO with RAC's fate ... this team is not ready to WIN JUST QUITE YET .. sorry but its true ...

Hey, I know 6 home wins is a lot to ask. For any team. I'm allowed to be optimistic. And I did say that would make me ecstatic. (I was also assuming we'd lose most of our away games, sadly). Suffice it to say I don't expect 6 wins. But IMO they have to start winning more home games than they lose or we run the risk of becoming the AZ Cardinals. *shudder*

Look, I know we probably won't win more than we lose this year. I don't like it but I understand it. I'm just saying that what I understand won't save Romeo's job. Only 7 or more wins will do that. No ifs, and, or buts. I don't think Phil is in a position to let Romeo stay if we don't win at least 7 games (actually I'd bet Lerner's break point is 8 games but I think Phil has slightly more wiggle room than Romeo and would let RAC stay at 7 wins and be OK).

I'm not saying that you guys are wrong in anything you've posted. I'm saying that in the FO they don't care what guys like us (hardcore fans) think. We'll always be here. And at CBS. They care what all those other people in the stadium think. And I believe that less than 8 (possibly 7) wins gets Romeo canned.

And I'll throw this out there just to stir the pot......if RAC does bite the bullet it would not surprise me in the least to see them hire Marty back. Nor would it upset me. OK, time for my sedatives now......

No matter the debate on the level of tear-down as compared to other teams, this is the year the team better start winning some games.

Whether it is justification or excuse rendering, the level of play in your division doesn't matter, close games don't matter, injuries don't matter.

All that really matters is winning some games, and 4-5-6 again this year will will bring some swift changes.

Reality Sucks....

We all have to realize that....Yes...we did have two first round draft picks...both offensive players, but we had a very poor run defense, and a below average D Line, and very little was done to improve it. We helped our pass D, but unless the D Line steps up, (QB pressures, sacks and run stopping) we won't be able to stop many teams.

I would love to look at things through Orange colored glasses, but we have to think of 7 wins as a successful season....

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Do Browns see light at end of tunnel?

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Yeah..............it's a rampaging Freight Train headed in their direction.

There have been some good posts in this thread. More realistic than most threads. That is a good thing.

Many of you are looking at all kinds of things.......I am going to be concentrating on two main areas:

1] Can we run the ball? And I'm talking about on first down. I'm talking on 3rd and short. Fourth and short. I am not talking about getting a 6 yd. gain on 3rd and 13. I'm talking about the run as a weapon. And no, we don't have to be among the league leaders in rushing. But, did anyone notice what Indy did to Baltimore in the playoffs? It was a close game and Indy ran the ball right down the throats of the Ravens late in the fourth quater. Grinding out first down after first down. Baltimore knew Indy was going to run it, but could do nothing to stop it. Say what you will, but that is one helluva an offensive line. I have more hope for our offensive line than I have ever had. We have improved, but there are still some question marks. RG...RT. There are also concerns at RB. We'll see.

2] Can the Browns stop the run? We must be able to stop teams from shoving it down our throats. Teams play conservatively against us because they know we won't score much and we can't stop the run. Football is a macho game and damn it............you can't let teams pound you right up the middle all the time. It's embarrassing.......it's humiliating, and it is one of the major reasons we suck. I question whether we have done enough to beef up the run D, and save the S. Smith BS. The Bengals didn't want him and they cut Adams anyway..........what's that tell ya'?

I hope to see improvements in those two areas. If not............I will still maintain that this franchise has a long way to go. If so, I might even jump on the bandwagon. *L*

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I hope to see improvements in those two areas.

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I'm not sure we will see much improvement on the Dline. Robaire seems to be an upgrade over McKinley and Shaun Smith might be an upgrade at backup NT. The problem I see is Roye and Washington are another year older and our backup DEs has gotten worse. The way I see it Fraiser is now our primary backup DE and he is poor against the run. S. Smith is a big wide body but has poor lateral movement. I don't see him backing up at end. I think the fact that we only signed Kelley to a one year contract speaks volumes of how we feel about him.

Lots of good posts, good reads this morning.

I'm tired of the Browns losing. On posters mentioned how embarrassing it is to have the ball run down our throats. It IS humiliating. I'm tired of that, too.

Of the two points you mention, stopping the run could be our biggest problem. I am not sure the line has improved much...or enough to see any real change.

But....we did make some changes, so we will just have to wait and see if the new guys can brings some needed juice in that area.

As to running the ball, I would hope that isn't going to be a problem.

We just drafted the proclaimed best LT in the draft with our 1st pick. Signed the best OL prospect in FA. Brought in a proven NFL runner who still has enough gas to bring the 5 yard inside run back into the mix. I don't see any reason why we can't run...except for one.

If teams don't respect more than 5 yard passes, they will play everyone up closer to the LOS which could jam things up for the backs. We have to be able to pass the ball if we want any hope of running the ball.

As it was, teams could cover deep with the two safties in a zone, knowing anything over 15-20 yards was going to be thrown in such a manner it was going to give the safties time to cover the 25 yards to bat the pass down down.

I hear you Vers and see what your saying .... and when those two things happen we will be ready to be a very very good football team .. but we can only do so much in an off season ... were not where we need to be ... we needed major help on both lines ... and we did all we could ..

our biggest FA pick up was Stieny ... then we drafted Joe with the #3 pick .... thats our two biggest ASSETS used to adress the line ... we also picked up a quality DE that is known for his ability to help stop the run ...

how much more could we have done??? i know where your gonna go and your WRONG ... QB is the most imoprtant position on the team .. and we needed one of those ..

as for your two major concerns (and their mine also ... ) ..

we will run the ball better than we ever have(witch isnt saying much) for two reasons ....

1. we have the best OL we will have had since our return ... witch again isnt saying much ... but this OL in 08 if La comes back will be one of the best ol's in football .. PERIOD ... Joe/Stieny/La (if hes back to even 90% pre injury) will be one of tghe most DOMINANT SIDES OF A LINE IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL ... ) ....

this year ... its going to better than we've ever had but its still GOING TO STRUGGLE ... Joe is a rookie ... he will STRUGGLE this year .... and the right side has ?? marks and BUMS all over it ... but if McKinnie can play RG and tuck plays RT we will at least be able to run right this year ...

2. we have the best RB we've had since our return (again not saying much .. .god what a horrible theme this is .. *L*) ....

even though hes a very old 27 and not what he used to be hes better than Rube who was way better than anything else we ever had .... except maybe Rhett but we only had him for like 3 weeks before he was done for the season ..

so were going to run better .... NO DOUBT ... but were still a year away from having a chance of grinding it down the throats of the rats ... maybe .. and i mean maybe next year if we get La back ..

for the first time since our return 3rd and 4th and 1 will be RUNNING FORMATIONS for us ... something i have been preaching for years .... and we will have a legite chance to get it running left and if Mckinnie/Tuck are the right side we can run right also and pick up a yard more often than not ..

don't forget Vers our STUD LT is going to only be a rookie .... he needs EXPERIENCE ....

on D as on O we will be better than last year (once again .. whippie doooo ... *L* .. ) .. we have IMPROVED on the DL but we will still struggle with it ... and hopefully we have the future at NT in Smith ... that would be HUGE NEXT YEAR ....

if your going to base this season's success on weatehr we can run or stop the run with the best teams in the league its going to be a failure .. were just not ready yet .. but we TOOK MAJOR STRIDES in running the ball and took POSITIVE STEPS in trying to stop it ...

WERE MUCH IMPORVED IN BOTH AREAS .... are we where we need to be yet in either .. NOPE ... but we could be next year ... and thats the first time we've ever been able to say were so close ...

GREAT JOB OPIE ....

PDawg, homer, Peen, and DnD-------you all raised good points and got me thinking about this a little more.

Savage couldn't fix both as well as he needed to in just this year. He correctly drafted an offensive lineman and brought in another through FA. It's usually easier and safer to upgrade the DL through FA, but there were slim pickings this year. I think Savage did a good job this off-season although I think he should have started this process two years earlier. The only thing that concerns me this year is that he didn't have to gamble. I kinda wish we would have played it safe and kept the # 36 pick. However, if The Mighty Quinn is anywhere near where Diam says he is, then I guess it is the right move. I just have a funny feeling about him, though.


Running the ball: I wonder how much our run blocking will improve? I think the right side may still be sort of weak. If Shaffer can't play over there, we have to rely on Tucker and McKinney staying healthy, which is something neither have been able to do lately. Other than a few teams such as Seattle, most teams run to their strong side, which is the right side....especially in short yardage situations.

Furthermore, I think Thomas and Steinbach excel more in pass blocking than run blocking at this point in time. I think Joe will be great at the second level, but it might take him a year or two to be dominant at the LOS. For example, if a play is run through the 0, 1, or even the 2 hole, Joe's blocking at the second level could pay huge dividends.

Joe and Steinbach will really help in the passing game. And that is one of the reasons I listed us being able to run the ball as one of my questions for this team. Guys..........this may sound crazy, but it is imperative that Ryan Tucker stay healthy and play all season. LOL......he is going to be the key to the line in general and the running game specifically.

Like you guys, I am not as optimistic about the run defense. I don't think S. Smith is going to help too much and I just haven't seen enough of R. Smith to get a handle on him. I just need to see him play more before I can say anything. Hopefully, he will surprise me the way Russell did a couple of years ago when he came over from Minnni.

Speaking of Russell........One key to the run D that you may not have considered is losing Russell and how that will affect the run defense. S. Jones was probably our best run stopper last year. Will he still be able to crowd the LOS and commit to the running game like he did last year? I know most of the board loves Pool, but the guy does nothing for me. He stands around a lot. He watches. Will Jones have to help patrol down field more? Will he have to cover more areas now that Russell is not back there. Say what you will, but our D went downhill big-time after Russell was injured last year.

The brass believes in Pool. The fans believe in Pool. Let's hope he can step up his game, but I'm telling you, he could really hurt this defense a lot this year, and most people wouldn't even recognize it, because, you won't see him getting burnt a lot. One other thing you won't see........how the defense is compromised to protect him. I'm really hoping he elevates his game and actually sniffs the ball. I'll be watching closely and let you know what I see.

LOL..........did you guys ever think that I would have mentioned Ryan Tucker and Brodney Pool as two keys to being able to run the ball and stop the run?

jc

very good posts...a nice thread

my thoughts:

I don´t know if the improvement on papr will translate to the field THIS season....actually I´m doubting it and I just hope Crennel gets another year from Lerner even if we go 4-6 wins again (which I would expect folks)...why?

1. new Offense
2. maybe rookie QB
3. 3-4 new starters on OL + new RB....needs time
4. Winslow health concerns

That said, I thin we had a good Off-season...and improved our running game AND run stopping....how?

J.Lewis > Droughns (as a runner, maybe a wash overall....considering blocking, receiving)

R.Smith > McKinley

S.Smith > backup NT we did not have in 2006 (Kelley? was injured)

Steinbach >>> Andruzzi

Thomas > Shaffer

McKinney > Coleman

Wimbley and D.Jackson in year 2 > Wimbley and Jackson as Rookies


Many on here forget how many injuries we had last year, esp. on defense....the last 2 games over 50% of our starters couldnt play...we had very poor depth I think we improved there

We had a stretch of 3-4 games where nobody could run on us (KC, PIT...)...coincidentally those were the only games our front 7 was COMPLETELY healthy....McGinnest, Roye were banged up all season but in those games I remember they were near 100%...and it showed

on Pool: Vers, the guy is 23yo and may be still a little immature and clueless...but he is around the ball a lot and has already made some big plays in little playing time....I think you are underestimating him....(playing) time will tell

Robaire Smith is very underrated. I think he is about what we got with Roye 2 seasons ago. Doesnt play to get famous but he will do his job and not be pushed around. I think he is good enough to start for half the teams in the NFL which is a huge upgrade over Alvin.

Shawn Smith is the one that has me very curious. Phil gave him a big check for some one that really hasnt been tested but he may see something.


I think this could be an exceptional running team if we scheme around what we have. Frankly I look at Thomas, Steinbach, Fraley, Tucker and Shaffer and I see a team that is made for a lot of zone blocking along with alot of pulls and traps. They arent gonna man up and beat teams but they can beat them with technique. Tucker is the only one of the bunch that is just gonna line up and knock someone on their ass.

Now this will be an entirely new philosphy for Jamal Lewis but from what I am hearing Lewis is actually looking better now than he has in the last 4 years. Much leaner cut and really looks ripped and he actually has that balance back that he didnt have the last 2 years.

I really think the key may be Jerome Harrison and Lawrence Vickers ability to take those little dump downs and RB screens and stretch the field. that will help widen the field and create space.

I honestly think the biggest question on defense right now is the safety position opposite Jones. Dont be surprised if Hamilton doesnt push Pool very very hard for the remaining starting spot.

.. " I honestly think the biggest question on defense right now is the safety position opposite Jones. Dont be surprised if Hamilton doesnt push Pool very very hard for the remaining starting spot... "

.. I am high on this kid Hamilton ... I thought Poll was a reach ( at # 2 ) and am not sold on him at all ..

.. As we have walked about in the past ; I think you could see a Lewis / Vickers back field from time to time ( Mack / Byner ) ..

Just clicking,,

Nice thread, tons of good thinking.. Some are saying that we improved on the Oline on paper,,, and I believe that's the case.. But we can't allow ourselves to forget that no matter how high Thomas is thought of, he's still a rooking and he will make rookie mistakes... Just a thought..

I like the Peak signing and this new draft pick, Wright seems to be someone we can have fun watching (saw a clip somewhere on him and he looked pretty darn fast and athletic to me),,,,

My hope is that Pool takes the same leap as Jones did last season. Tell me how cool that would be..

But the Dline, well, that still scares me a bunch.. My hope is that Savage intends to go out and get some Dline help next off season via FA and the Draft....

But like so many have said, Savage can only address a few things at a time..

Real nice thread

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Real nice thread

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Soup and menZa have a total of one post on a 2 page thread and its a good thread ..... coincidence???? .. i think not ...

Vers:] Can we run the ball? And I'm talking about on first down. I'm talking on 3rd and short. Fourth and short. I am not talking about getting a 6 yd. gain on 3rd and 13. I'm talking about the run as a weapon.

2] Can the Browns stop the run? We must be able to stop teams from shoving it down our throats.


It should be better but I don't think it will be established till about midway depending on who's lined up where..
But I think we will see improvement just not all at once..
Short yardage should also be productive as Lewis is a pounder and can get tuff yards..

Can we stop the run?
I doubt it..but we may not get pushed around as much..considering what area Phil addressed in the draft we will have to go with the defensive FA's we got and the guys from last year..
RS should be a huge upgrade over Alvin McKinley ..and my concern is Shaun Smith..for Phil to pluck himaway from the Bengals I trust he saw him as a 34 NT and not just a DT..his skill set hopefully is enough to maintain and hold his ground.
The problem we have had is that the backup NT's who come in just get manhandled...no one has the technique/power to hold their ground..
We shall see..
We have a couple more DE projects to work with although I've read some good things on Melila Purcell.

Obviously, there will be other things to monitor, but I think running the ball and stopping the run will be the most important.

I probably should clarify my original point. I don't expect the Browns to be great at either this year. What I'll be looking for is improvement in both areas. I think we will be below average in both categories this year, but we must begin the process of improving those two critical areas.

I could go on and on about these two things, but I'll try and keep it short.

Running the ball:

--Do you guys realize what it's like to not be able to run the ball between the tackles on 3rd and 1 to 2 yds to go or 4th and 1? I can't begin to give adequate justice to just how huge that is. When you have to resort to calling trick plays on short yardage situations, you are doomed. It's the kind of thing that gets OCs fired.

---Another huge concern is not being able to run effectively on first down. It is hard to sustain drives if you can't gain at least 3 to 4 yds. on 1st down w/the run. It puts too much pressure on your QB specifically and your offense in general to consistently have to make long yardage conversions. People blame the OC for being too predictable and not mixing things up. The truth is.......when you are forced to pass on first down just in hope of getting more than 1 or 2 yds, that's when you are predictable.

---Did you guys know that many teams only rushed 4 vs. the Browns last year and dropped 7 into coverage? And this began on first down. *L* Factor in having inexperienced skill players........and no wonder the Brown's offense was pathetic. They really didn't stand much of a chance and I don't give a damn what plays were called.

Bottom line: It's huge that we improve here. I'm not saying we have to have a great running game, but we have to get to the point where we can get 1 or 2 yds. on 3rd and short. And we have to get to the point where the run can be considered a viable option as a weapon on first down, instead of just a give-up play designed only to keep teams from not killing our QB.


Stopping the Run:

---Picture a scene where a schoolyard bully storms in disdainfully pushing little dweebs to the side as he makes his way to the cutest girl in the school. The Browns have been the dweebs. There is nothing more disheartening and problematic in football as when another team is able to run the ball right down your throat. It destroys the character and will of a team.

---Think about how many times in recent years where the Browns are playing fairly well defensively. Finally, the offense musters a score and we get all excited only to watch the Browns defense allow a team to ram it down their throats for a score when it was imperative for them to make a stop. Seriously..........you have to remember that that scene has played out many, many times.

---Stats may be for losers, but there is one stat that is huge. Wanna guess what it is before I say?

Yep, a team's turnover ratio. Tell me, how have the Browns fared in regards to turnover ratio the last 4 years or so? Why are they consistently so bad at this all-important area of the game?

I believe that team's can play conservatively against the Browns. They can run the ball when they want to. They don't need to take chances. They don't need to gamble. They don't need to light it up. They can simply play effective offense by conservatively stuffing the rock down our throats. And please allow me to go back to offense for a moment.....think about how conversely our offense has to take more risks, pass more, try more trick plays, etc. That leads to more turnovers and shorter possessions.

Guys.......until the Browns can become at least average at running the ball and stopping the run, the media's predictions about us finishing at the bottom of the league are going to be proven true. Once again, I am not demanding that we be great or even good at both this year, but we must show some signs of improvement in both areas if we are going to make any noise in 2008 or 2009.

One peculiar thing about being able to run the ball and stop the run. Both have a lot to do w/a team's mindset. They are both in one of the rare areas where it just doesn't come down all to talent, as opposed to things like a receivers leaping ability or speed, a CBs hips, a QBs accuracy or arm strength, a RBs elusiveness or power. Yes, talent certainly plays a huge role in being able to run the ball or stop the run, but a team's will, it's want-to, it's moxie, it's attitude, it's character---which is its very being---are important factors in it's success, or lack thereof.

I agree with your point on Pool and Russell.

I am not real high on pool myself. You are right, he is going to have to step up his play and play at last as well as Russell did.

In the long run, it wouldn't surprise me to see Hamilton or the new kid McDonald eventually take Pools spot.

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Do you guys realize what it's like to not be able to run the ball between the tackles on 3rd and 1 to 2 yds to go or 4th and 1?

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You do realize your talking to Browns fans?

We know what this is like better than any team in the NFL.

First, just a wee bit OFA ADVICE to U..

but there is one stat that is huge. Wanna guess what it is before I say?

DON'T ASK for any stat unless U want TWO PEOPLE showing up from www. I DO RESEARCH ON STAT.COM..Soup/Mensa...

Seriously...running on 1st down or short yardage is simply one of several things the Browns haven't down well..and it has boiled down to the OLINE not having any talent whatsoever.
My only thoughts are how it shapes up during TC...I will not anywhere NEAR there so I will only go on what people who attend see..you're one who goes aren't U?

Even though preseason is what it is..we saw last year the intensity that was lacking from that first game..it looked like the Browns were in a practice not a game..
I EXPECT that to be different this year..not the heartless effort I saw in those games..

Did you guys know that many teams only rushed 4 vs. the Browns last year and dropped 7 into coverage? And this began on first down.
Teams blitzed when they wanted to make a statement ..like they did it just to ADD confusion or make sure the Browns were taken out of scoring range..
Not disagreeing..it just seems like it was done as a insult to the offense..

I believe that team's can play conservatively against the Browns. They can run the ball when they want to. They don't need to take chances. They don't need to gamble. They don't need to light it up. They can simply play effective offense by conservatively stuffing the rock down our throats. And please allow me to go back to offense for a moment.....think about how conversely our offense has to take more risks, pass more, try more trick plays, etc. That leads to more turnovers and shorter possessions.


This is why I pound Soup and that Mensa for posting stats..because a SHEET OF PAPER doesn't show that ..it looks like our pass D is effective when it's actually the fact that teams can run at will..

I again will be anxious to see how the new components meld during TC and those preseason games..
I do expect some chaotic happenings though..