DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Who Goes First Jimmie?

This roster looks more like it's ready for a knife fight than a gun fight. To me, that is on Farmer. Goodbye Ray. Take Bowe with you. I'd rather keep the coaching staff (I know they have made their mistakes) and get a GM that understands talent evaluation and how to work WITH a coach to meet their personnel needs. Not saying Farmer has failed to work with Pettine but CLEARLY his evaluation of talent is lacking. Severely. I don't think the Browns can afford ANOTHER wasted draft. They are already 2-3 years away from being a playoff contender IMO.

I would still say that they are not immune to the drama that comes with the territory when talking about players like Manziel. They hear the fans chanting whenever McCown's offense goes 3-and-out, they are subjected to the magnified media scrutiny that surrounds Manziel, and they are aware of the rift between the coaching staff and the front office when it comes to who starts at QB. Even with that said, the coach can't let players dictate who plays, because they are not as concerned with the team's long term well-being, while it is his job to be.

I think Pettine should take Haslam at his word that he won't "blow things up" if we have a bad season, because I believe that was Jimmy telling him to play Manziel. The way to get fired, IMO, is to go 3-13, 4-12 and to still not know about whether Manziel is viable or not.

Genuine curiosity, Dave. I understand the need to know about JM.

Where are you at, if, whether by choice or injury, JM does play and the record is, say 4 wins or less. He has played as many fans wanted him to do; he has "proved" something with that, and we "know what we've got" as a result. What happens then in terms of the thread?

Some here puzzle me. On the one hand they are automatically giving JM high marks and superior play, placing him above McKown who has stats and losses admittedly. But we need to play Manziel, taking some losses or a lot of them, because we do not know what we have. Seems contradictory to me, and how many losses to determine the Johnny and satisfy our curiosity may be required?

Trying not to be argumentative. Where's Dave at in any of that?

I said earlier that I thought our ceiling with McCown is 6 wins, although I personally picked them at 5-11. (I also had us at 3-1 at this point in the season - yikes.) But when it comes to judging Manziel, wins and losses wouldn't be my criteria to decide if he deserves to be our starter going into TC next year. I would hope that the Browns would evaluate him on how he progresses with shortcomings and flashes that special-ness that they, along with a lot of fans, thought he brought to the game. I'm talking about the "eyeball test", the "It" factor. I want to see it.

Haha, my bad. Clearly, a brain fart.

I understand how everyone on this board feels(I pretty much feel the same frustration) but we could easily be 3-1 right now if a play or 2 went in our favor. I realize it didn't and it usually doesn't but changing it all again is not the way to go IMO. Now if we just changed the GM that might make a difference without disrupting everything else if JH feels a change has to be made at all. For now I hope we win as many games as possible and play tough in the losses. Build a foundation for next year.

i was wondering why you brought up a baseball player. lol.

His suspension already ended.

This last page and a half hurts my head.

Only in Cleveland do we lose because of poor Defense and penalties - and to fix it, everybody wants to change the QB to make things better.

We're scoring an average of 23.5 points per game over the last 2 weeks, but somehow it is the offense that needs addressed even though the defense is giving up 28.5 points per game in that same span.


smh

Perhaps it's hurting your head because you struggle with reading comprehension?

No one said McCown played poorly or said he was the reason the Browns lost. The context of starting Manziel has nothing to do with any specific game.

Is that easy to comprehend?

It looks like Farmer is setting up his coach to hop on the sacrificial table by his silence. Pettine is out their trying to justify mistakes and poor play in his pressors while Farmer and Jimmie lay low. By the way, as an aside, the guy Farmer ran out of town, Shanny, is tearing up the league with his offense in Atlanta.

josh McCown 0 wins 3 loss as a starter for the browns...........just sayin.........

Wouldn't you agree that one of the main reasons a team stinks is because the QB is bad? Also, aren't we one of those bad teams that he's one?

Also, no one says McCown's short stretch with the Bears doesn't count. It's just an aberration.

It is comical that people are making any arguments that McCown could even be average with all the mountains of evidence against him.

I believe the questions run deeper than that.

One obvious fact is that McCown isn't the problem right now. McCown is spreading the ball around well, is having productive games and I don't believe anyone can bring this up as a bone of contention. We can all ascribe what we believe the future holds, but as of now, McCown and this O is producing well enough to win games.

So I guess the biggest questions are, does the coaching staff know who is better suited to start at this point? Who has more to lose than this coaching staff on making a mistake about who starts now? Can we honestly feel we know better who to start at QB than the people who coach them and see them every day?

If you knew JFF isn't even close to being ready and you could only implement 30 to 40 percent of the playbook with JFF, would you think starting him is the best move right now?

There are a lot of variables we as fans have no idea about. And if we the fans don't know what we have in JFF, does that really make a difference? As long as this coaching staff and the FO knows what we do or don't have in JFF by seasons end, isn't that the only thing that really matters?

I understand the thought process of those who want to see JFF start. I'm just not convinced they know as much as our coaching staff about what the right move is right now.

I don't really care who the QB is right now. I would prefer Manziel, but I understand why McCown is starting.

I just don't get how anyone can justify saying McCown will continue to be good. We know what he is.

That's right we do know what he is... he's a guy that's been in the league 12 YRS.. I emphasize that because while he's not a franchise QB, or most teams pick to be The Guy... he's been employed that long for a reason. How many other QB's don't last that long? How many that were supposed to have more promise than McCown ended up a flash in the pan?

Right now McCown has been playing solid ball. Right now solid ball is what we need in order to get this offense installed.

Agreed...We need to know what Manziel is...Wheather he makes it as a big time QB or merely a good backup...Considering we need both for 2016, we all hope he can be more than just a back-up and playing will show what future he holds to us and or the NFL

Where is this 30 to 40 % of the play book coming from ?

It's simply a valid question IMO

The success I saw from JFF was mostly based on a few throws over the top. I didn't see many of the plays we saw last week like passes to the RB's and an overall spread production to many targets. This O has changed a lot from last year. I don't see any play action plays like we saw last year.

JFF didn't get out of rehab until when, May?

So I'm not sure how much, or how little he knows when it comes to executing the playbook. What I do know is the play calling is much more varied with McCown in the game.

I did put it in the form of a question and not stated as a fact. Because the truth is, none of us really know the answer to that question.

The irony of all this is that Pet does not give a crap what the fans think (good job Pet) He is doing what he thinks will make this team better next week, next year, and three years down the rode







_________________________

This whole "we need to know what Manziel is" cracks me up. We KNOW what he is!

He's an undersized, slower than average "running quarterback" who made his living in college on one read passes and if that wasn't there, broken plays. He's doing the exact same thing here as he was then but here he also fumbles every 10th time he drops back.

Why do YOU need to see him get beat up on Sunday for the team to know what they have? They see him the work rooms, on the practice field and yes, they've seen him in real live games. If he was merely close to McCown in terms of basic quarterbacking skills he'd be on the field as the starter so that we could benefit from his "flashes". He's clearly no where near where this journeyman, who many hear seem to thing sucks, so what's that say about Manziel? It says what we all deep down know and that's that once he's cut off the Browns he's going to have a hard time sticking in the NFL because no team that doesn't have a first round investment in him is going to keep him around for more than a cup of coffee.

How does playing McCown make the team better three years down the road?

It's an idiotic decision to play McCown. It's not even debatable.

Stetson, you sound pretty confident in your conclusions. You may end up being right, but let's see it play out on the field. You can tell everyone "told you so" after he bombs.

I don't think Pett not giving crap would be ironic. You might have said "the funny thing about that" or "the interesting thing about that" ...

Wow

lol!
Did I hit a sore spot? What's the matter... do you not enjoy having it pointed out that you want to replace the current QB even though he isn't doing anything wrong, just so you can see your boy play?

You concoct the lamest set of reasons to argue for putting Johnny in ("we have to see what he has", lol!) as if it's some urgent thing.

Heck, by your reasoning we need to just sit down Haden & Thomas so that we can see what Gilbert & Erving have.

You know what? Let's bench all the starters so we know exactly how much of our depth we need to replace next offseason. We NEED to know!

No, it would be idiotic and serve absolutely zero purpose to play Manziel, BUT, the fan-boys and armchair GM's feel THEY need to see him to know what he's got even though it is painfully obvious at this point that he doesn't even have enough to unseat a Josh McCown.

BUT - if you ask any of them, Manziel doesn't get to play because Pet has it out for him, because CLEARLY that MUST be the reason he can't get on the field. It couldn't POSSIBLY be because he currently cannot unseat a career journeyman. Nah... that'd just be crazy.

Keeping McCown in until/unless Johnny can force the issue on merit is the ONLY thing that makes sense.

I tell you what though, I almost - almost - wish McCown would take another shot to the head just so Manziel could go in and get this answered once and for all - just so people would freaking shut up about it. The eternal "most popular play on a football team is the backup QB" thing is mighty, mighty old with this team.



p.s. Rish - read all of that twice to make sure you get it all - practice them reading skills.

The FO's original intent for the QB position this year was to surround whoever that player was with the personnel to get the job done(O-line,WR,RB,TE). McCown unfortunately had to be the guy that we brought in to bring all those pieces together. The guy is 36 years old and brings no longevitiy to the team. Manziel should of been the starter, period. As an FO/Coach, you are wasting everyones time and money placing a Journeyman QB on the field. Play the guy who might be here awhile and if it doesn't pan out get another QB. If the intent is to tank a season with McCown then don't give the guy a decent contract to play Browns football. Atleast contractually show the fan base you don't care about this season.

The idiotic decision is to throw a young QB to the Lions before he is ready. Johnny had a massive learning curve to transition from the remedial spread offense that he ran in college into an NFL offense with minute intricacies. He's never had the responsibility of setting protections, making pre snap reads, audibling or even calling plays in a huddle. He hardly even took snaps from under center. I believe it was Joe Thomas who said earlier this year Johnny pointed out the Mike" linebacker in practice and the lineman wanted to stop practice and cheer. I told everybody before the Browns knew Johnny had a hell of a lot to learn when they drafted him. Now many of you guys want to throw him in before he is ready. You want to ruin him just so you can see him play. If you throw him out there now, he's going to be overwhelmed and struggle. Than most of the people screaming that they want to see play will be screaming for his head, calling him a bust, and wanting Cleveland to cut him next year. You want to hurt his long term prospects by not letting him learn the basics before trying to learn the details. It's like you guys want him to learn calculus without knowing arithmetic.

So how will that help us three years down the road. It will help us by not ruining the kid by playing him when he is not prepaired. His best chance for long term success is to be ready to play when he gets the chance. So until then y'all can just keep doing this

He did officially start the first game, but is it his fault we lost? Seriously, he played in ONE drive.

Purps accurate about the what we score and he's correct about what we give up. We score enough to win if you have a D that does it's job. And it's simply NOT doing it's job.

If the D was what we were told it would be, we'd probably be 3-1 today and they'd be no disussion about Manziel.

Why do people get mad at others for their own deficiencies? Why is it my "sore spot" if you can't read?

Why is Manziel "my boy" because I'd rather see him in there than McCown?

What are you pointing out to me exactly? You are using insults to bolster an argument that doesn't exist. Yes, I would rather have Manziel play than McCown. It has nothing with "sore spots" and "my boy".

Only in Cleveland do we get fans backing the decision to start a career journeyman QB with an overall losing record. And it's not just arguing for it...it's things like you do...vehemently argue for it. You either really dislike Manziel on a personal level that goes beyond football (which I think is the truth) or ...and this has long been a theory of mine...the losing has become such a part of people's fabric they are actually afraid of not knowing how to react if it ever changed. If you're honest with yourself you know the Browns will not win with McCown. And you are actually advocating he play due to some made up code about "earning" his spot. You are willing to take the known of losing over the unknown so you can argue on a message board and hope people think you sound smart. That is so Cleveland Browns fan.

There is no point in playing McCown. Zero. Zilch. None. Nada.



I'm not sure I've ever used that reason, but I believe we are denying Manziel of valuable live game reps that will only help him and the Browns down the road. The longer we put it off, the further "down the road" gets. Maybe it's all moot. It's getting more and more likely Pettine doesn't survive the year. He'll be gone and he'll take McCown with him and the new guys will want their QB and none of the three will be on the team next year. That will be a dream scenario for you...you get a whole season with McCown...but that's not all that you've won...well, you've also won a fabulous losing record and a new QB not named Manziel next year. Jackpot.



At least all I did was point out the truth that you can't read. This is just more rhetoric to bolster an argument that doesn't exist because you have a problem with me pointing out the truth. This is pretty standard operating procedure on this board. I expected nothing less.

GM, what are the Browns doing to help prepare him?

What are they doing to help him learn calculus?

Your post was great and made a ton of sense. But you left out those critical pieces I asked about. My impression is they are hoping Manziel is learning those things from McCown through osmosis. I don't see or hear any special effort being made knowing Manziel has those deficiencies to help him overcome them. Pettine said he doesn't get much work during the week as the backup. Has that changed?

How is the team helping prepare him for down the road? What steps are they taking other than just bringing McCown in?

You tell me, you're the one who gets all uppity and throws out a "you lack reading comprehension jab" because I point out that your logic makes no sense at all.




No, this would be you.



Yes, there is. He gives us the best chance to win now, but he also lets Manziel stay OFF the field and learn. Granted, I have nothing more to back this up than you with your claim that he needs game reps, but I believe that if he had enough of a grasp on the basics (reading defenses, knowing the offense, knowing his reads & who the Hot is, etc...) that he would be able to take the job. We as fans have only the Titans game to look at for evidence, and when I look at that I see two great plays at each end of the game that bookend a completely mediocre and somewhat troubling (the fumbles, the panic, the desire to scramble) performance in the middle that shows he needs work with the fundamentals of the position. I'm more than happy to see Manziel replace McCown - IF he can TAKE the job from him, and Yes he can do that without seeing the field, and No he does not need game reps to do that.




He doesn't need game reps. He needs to be learning the basics, ingraining good habits, and learning the offense inside and out... and that is most easily done when other guys AREN'T trying to squash your head.



No, this is exactly what your argument is. Solid attempt at deflecting, however.
You say that this season doesn't matter and we need to play the backup.... well, let's use that same logic across the board for all of our backups and really evaluate all of our depth.

Weeden was our first round QB of 2012...and got alot of playing time and starts for 2 years...With Manziel being our first round pick of 2014...doesn't he deserve the same? We all know who Weeden really is, because we got to watch it first hand and knew after those two years this guy would never make it here...Not saying Manziel is going to light it up by any means...But I do think we need to play him and see what we have.

We will. Just not right now.

Just a question here, how do you know what the Browns REAL plans for Manziel are.

He's looked way better in what little we've seen him this year. maybe they simply don't believe in him and are planning on dumping him in trade for the best they can get. Perhaps it's a set up to get rid of him and don't want to expose his worthlessness. Do you know that's NOT the case?

Just asking

J/C

I think much of the "play Manziel to see what we have" reasoning is simply to know whether the team has to go all out for a QB in the draft - from the fan's perspective. It's my opinion that this team is going all out for a QB in the off season regardless of what happens the rest of this one.

I have a friend in his late 40s who is single, every time he goes on a date he thinks he has to know that night whether the woman is marriage material or not because otherwise he's wasting his time. He doesn't get that things take time to develop. (Also why he's still single!)

I mention this because I get the same sense from those insisting that Manziel MUST play now. We have to hurry up and find out so we can move on. Then we have to hurry up and find out about the next guy so we can move on.

I admit that I'm intrigued by what I saw of Manziel so far this season, but I think McCown has done nothing to warrant being pulled. If he trends back down to his career normal level of play then by all means yank him and put Manziel in. To do it now, simply sends the message that how well you're playing as a starter doesn't matter if we just want to see how the next guy might play.

Question on this comment. From what I can tell, there are good arguments on both sides. If JM sits this year as a backup with limited playing time, what would the expectation be next year as a starter - assuming he wins? It would be very frustrating for him then to take an additional 2-3 years to get mature enough as a QB to learn the game. Shoot year 3 is the year is seems new coaches really get to prove if they are on the right path...

I read where the only way to get experience in the NFL is to play in games so if he starts next year - in terms of seeing real defenses and hitting tight throws - he'd probably still make rookie mistakes and that would probably be the excuse - lack of playing time. I hear things like game speed for guys coming off IR or who sat 2-3 months. Or would the real expectation be that he make all reads and all throws without the Rookie mantra?

Maybe the bigger question become IF he is the future, WHEN does he become the future and plays like it? IF he is allotted the 'rookie lack of game time' and wins 4-5 games, I can see the same issue of 'he'll never make it', ' time to draft another QB' and this regime will be into the third year of possibly a new QB - which sounds like another reboot...IMHO