DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Who Goes First Jimmie?

I would say that the expectations before next season begin would have to be tempered. Aside from the fact that an Expectation is really just a fancy word for a premeditated resentment, I think that the expectations would (& should) grow & evolve as we get to see more of him in game situations based upon what he does well and doesn't do well.

This is provided that he gets all of the basics down before then.


The only way to get experience in anything is to do it... experience is that thing you get right after you needed it. Things like reading defenses can be learned and developed now. Whether we want to admit/believe it or not, we have our own NFL defense as well as a scout team that mimics what each opponent is likely to show us each week. Manziel is in those meetings and in those practices. He may not be taking reps with the 1's, but he is taking reps.



Million dollar question. Probably even he cannot answer this.

Okay, I'm not Purp, but I'm going to take a stab anyway. What one has to believe if they want JFF to start, is that this coaching staff has no clue as to where JFF is from a learning and execution standpoint. I don't believe a timetable has anything to do with where JFF is in the maturation process. A player can either win his position and be prepared or not. The season is far from over and just because JFF isn't starting this week, doesn't mean that he won't be starting at some point this season.



Once again, some seem to feel that just because JFF isn't starting in week 5, he won't get playing time this season. Maybe he won't. But I believe if he can't overtake McCown at some point this season, it will speak volumes in how we approach the QB position in the draft.

Now I don't know if you need to make "all the throws and sight adjustments", but you have to have a very good grasp of your offense and be prepared to run the entire playbook before you can start if you already have a QB who can. You can't simply throw away part of your playbook for a look see.



I believe the point you made quite well is "IF he is the future". In two seasons, he hasn't been able to surpass either Hoyer or McCown to this point. If by the end of this year he is still behind the learning curve, we may very well see another high draft pick at QB next year.

And yes, that can be seen as a reboot. But that's a funny thing. While some will see it as this FO and coaching staff realizing JFF was a mistake and they are moving on from it, some will see it as a reboot. A lot of it's about perception.

I believe we will see JFF start at some point this season. Maybe it won't be as soon as some would like, but if JFF can't get starts against journeymen QB's by the end of his second year in the league, it certainly points to signs we need to look at the QB situation again, long term.

All I can hope that if Manziel isn't the guy..

That he plays well enough for Jerry Jones to sneak off into the bathroom and trade a 1st for him..

You hit the nail on the head.

What it boils down to is the inmates are running the asylum. Pettine is afraid to upset the veterans, which is why he won't start Manziel. No one in the organization is thinking long-term. I think that's an awful way to run a business.

Andy Dalton was not ready to start his first year in the league. Blake Bortles wasn't ready. Derek Carr wasn't ready. They were not better than the guys in front of them. But those teams had the long-term interest of the organization in mind and knew there would be some lumps. Not a single one of those quarterbacks I just mentioned had perfected their craft. In fact, when they got the starting jobs, they were having similar issues that Manziel is having. That's what playing and getting the experience is all about.

They keep saying they have a plan for Manziel. The organization hasn't said what that plan is. I asked GM what they are doing to help Manziel overcome his deficiencies...to graduate to calculus as he puts it. Nothing from what I've read. He's the 2nd string QB, he gets treated like the second string QB, including prep and rep time. And we are supposed to believe that he can actually win the job during the week. LOL.

Here's the bottom line. McCown is not the future. All the organization is doing is treading water right now by starting him. That may be what the veterans want, but the veterans are paid to play football while the leadership of the organization is expected to manage both short-term and long-term goals.

The inmates are running the asylum. And it's incredibly sad. I'm not sure if this is a fortunate thing or an unfortunate thing, but there is probably a greater chance right now that Pett, McCown, and Manziel are all gone next year than any other scenario I can think of right now. Pett's going to ride his stubbornness and unwillingness to make tough decisions as a leader right out of town and we are going to get another reboot.

As this season carries on and gets uglier, I would expect reports coming out around week 11 or week 12 that Haslam is seeking "advice" from others around the league at what to do. These will be the first signs of cracks in the foundation. Once a crack starts, they progressively get bigger. Bank on it.

If Manziel isn't good enough to outright take the job from McCown, I strongly question any logic that purports Pett would lose his job for not starting Manziel.




And what bugs you most about all of this is that you don't know what the plan is and you can't/won't/don't trust that they know what they are doing. You think that you know better than them.





Given how much he has progressed since last season to this season by doing exactly what he is doing right now, I don't see how this is laughable in any way. If he doesn't have the mental side of the game down, he IS going to sink. Period.

In other words - if he can't handle the mental side of things and handle all of the learning, his on-field stuff doesn't matter, because he'll NEVER be able to run an offense well.

See RGIII.
See <insert name of almost any QB rushed out there over the last 15 years>

The guys that get rushed into service (especially on bad teams) and actually do decently are - by far - the minority. The coaches are TRYING to give the kid a chance by NOT rushing him.

But, but......but, we live in a "now" society. Gotta see what the new kid can do, NOW, so we'll know if we need a new kid next year so HE can perform NOW.

Haven't we ruined enough qb's by rushing them out there to see what they could do "now"?

Luck and Wilson are outliers. (I think that's the word) Most other good qb's had an opportunity to sit and learn.

Now, take into account that technically this could be called JM's rookie season (as he pissed last year away)...why rush it?

Take into account that JM didn't have a playbook in college. Take into account that JM is now playing against the best of the best, and the quickest of the quick.........and he needs to learn how to adjust.......why the rush to shove him in the fire?

Why? Because we live in a NOW society. And that's too bad.

Tyrod Taylor's success could affect QB development across NFL

Link

Buffalo Bills quarterback Tyrod Taylor is compelling for more than just the obvious reasons.

Anybody can see the skill set he possesses and the way he's ignited a Buffalo team after being a relatively obscure backup in Baltimore. The more fascinating aspect of Taylor's ascent has more to do with what he might mean for the quarterback position moving forward. If he continues to succeed as he has so far, he could set the template for developing multidimensional quarterbacks in the very near future.

Taylor easily has been one of the most pleasant early surprises of the regular season. He's led the Bills to a 2-1 start and his passer rating (116.1) currently ranks fifth in the NFL. He's completed 74.4 percent of his passes and leads an offense that is averaging 33.3 points per game (third-best in the NFL). Basically, Taylor has been everything the Bills hoped he would be when they signed him as an unrestricted free agent in March. He's the epitome of a diamond in the rough.

His rise in Buffalo also suggests something else: That he has benefited from the kind of apprenticeship that it would behoove many raw quarterbacks to serve as they enter the NFL.

"You can see the accuracy, the poise in the pocket, the way he makes plays on the move now," Bills general manager Doug Whaley said. "When he came out of school, he was a 'run-read' guy who had to get on the edge to make plays. But with the broad difference between the college and pro game today, you're probably going to see more guys sitting for four or five years before they start. The higher a quarterback gets taken and has to play, the shorter the time he has to develop. If Tyrod had to play early, he might be out of the league by now."

That is the important thing to note about Taylor, along with nearly every other quarterback who thrived in a spread offense in college. There have been constant debates about how players in those systems are supposed to transition into a league that asks far more of signal callers than they were ever expected to handle at lower levels. It's one thing for quarterbacks to never enter a huddle, take a snap under center or change a play without looking to mini-billboards on a sideline. It's an entirely different situation when those same quarterbacks move into a league where they have to decipher complicated coverages, recognize exotic blitz packages and pray that defenders like J.J. Watt don't end their careers.

Taylor is an early success story in 2015 largely because he was given the time to figure out how to play the position correctly. He had plenty of nice accomplishments at Virginia Tech -- he was the 2010 ACC Player of the Year and a four-year starter who passed for 7,017 yards and ran for another 2,196 -- but he wasn't a user-friendly product by the league's standards. Taylor was a raw passer -- at best -- when the Ravens selected him in the sixth round of the 2011 NFL Draft. He was a project who needed quality time to become a quarterback a team could trust, the kind of time that is harder to come by in a league where players have limited exposure to coaches in the offseason.

We now can see that Taylor's route is a far better path for young quarterbacks who blossomed in the spread. There are some players who have revealed the ability to blow us away with their skills early -- such as Washington's Robert Griffin III, Carolina's Cam Newton and San Francisco's Colin Kaepernick -- but we also have watched many of them struggle mightily, as well. There's little doubt that the Jets' Geno Smith and Browns' Johnny Manziel weren't nearly as ready for prime time as they might have thought coming out of college. For every former spread quarterback who shows promise (like Minnesota's Teddy Bridgewater), there are three or four others who bottom out quickly (think Blaine Gabbert, Colt McCoy and Jake Locker).

It's appealing to point to an impressive rookie like the Titans' Marcus Mariota as a counter-argument to the notion that spread quarterbacks struggle to assimilate into the league, but even that would be a reach. What Mariota proves is that not all spread offenses are created equal. His coaches in Tennessee say that he had far more exposure to pro-style principles during his All-American career at Oregon than outsiders realize. By being asked to go through progressions on passing plays, understand pass-protection schemes and throw with anticipation, Mariota had the opportunity to learn vital fundamentals that assist him today.

Taylor is displaying a similar savvy this season, largely because the Ravens had a smart plan for him. He sat behind Joe Flacco for four seasons. He learned from bright coordinators like Cam Cameron, Jim Caldwell and Gary Kubiak. And he grew without the weight of heavy expectations or the frustration of not being able to do everything that he needed to do to start in the NFL.

From the minute Taylor joined the Bills, he displayed a self-assurance that was undeniable. Whaley said the Bills had been tracking his progress since college and their research had reassured them that, as the GM said, "A lot of people thought Tyrod had a chance to take the next step as a passer."

Said Taylor: "Like I've said from Day 1, I've been confident in my ability, but it's never just about me. I'm definitely steadily growing, learning each and every day and the goal is to get better each and every day. Learn from your mistakes and continue to keep moving forward."

It will be interesting to see if Taylor succeeds enough for other teams to pursue a similar route with young, multidimensional passers. For example, the Green Bay Packers used a fifth-round pick on Brett Hundley in this year's draft (and some thought the UCLA product had the potential to go much higher). He could be a player who blossoms while sitting behind Aaron Rodgers. Other teams already might be monitoring how Hundley grows in that kind of environment.

The main point of all this is that we're entering a brave new world when it comes to developing quarterbacks. It used to be a simple debate when it came to handling such players: Do you start them as rookies or sit them for a few years? It almost seems like a conversation that isn't even worth having today, not unless you're selecting a quarterback from a pro-style system (like Tampa Bay's Jameis Winston, formerly of Florida State) or one who is considered a once-in-a-lifetime prospect (like Indianapolis' Andrew Luck, who also learned his craft in a pro-style offense at Stanford).

The value Taylor brought to Buffalo went beyond his skill set, by the way. He also was smart enough to see the benefit of joining a team that already had a strong defense and an improved running game (Buffalo traded for LeSean McCoy just before Taylor signed). Taylor didn't fear the idea of competing with 2013 first-round pick EJ Manuel or veteran Matt Cassel for a job. As Whaley said, "Tyrod won the job because no matter who was out there with in the preseason -- first-string, second-string, third-string -- he made the other players better."

So far, everybody is happy with how things are turning out. In fact, Taylor impressed his teammates after last Sunday's 41-14 win at Miami by wearing a three-piece suit on the team plane -- after head coach Rex Ryan had given his players the option of wearing sweats or going business-casual. When a teammate asked Taylor why he donned the fancy outfit, he told him, "If I'm going to be the starting quarterback, I'm going to carry myself like one."

It was a comment that told everybody something that more people are discovering about Taylor: He's already learned plenty about what it takes to succeed at this level.

sounds alot like da huh?

Brian Hoyer sat 3 years behind Tom Brady and one of the most prolific passing offenses in the league and he learned well didn't he. Obviously that is the only formula for success. Luck, Carr, Bridgewater, Mariotta, etc. all started out of the gate, obviously they are doomed to fail.

Making generalizations doesn't work in this situation. For every QB that started right away and was successful, there are many who started and failed.

We have to rely on the people who know more than us to make the right decision.

I didn't make any generalizations, I made the same point as you..every QB is different, some start right away some sit for years. The guys I named are first round picks and first rounders don't ride the pine for years unless your the Browns.

Now, imagine how bad he'd be if he hadn't sat behind Tom Brady.

He'd have been out of the league in under 2 years.

Comparing the situations of the QBs you selected to the Manziel is apples to oranges.

well johnny just doesnt seam like the kind of guy that learns the easy way. seams like he needs to learn the hard way. not by watching but by doing. and even then......

Now THIS I can 100% agree with!

How about bringing in a offensive cord who is good at working with young QB's and has the patients to deal with them. How about bringing in a QB coach who had worked with Johnny before and had confidence in his talent. Bringing in Kurt Roper has to help as well IMO.

Johnny has spent more time learning the play book and studying game film since OTA's started this year than he has in college and last year combined. We brought in McCown not just to start this year (which the Coaching staff thought he would do well at) but to help teach, which he has no problem doing. It drives home to Johnny the importance of knowing the offense inside and out (which includes knowing what everybody else on the offense should be doing on every play) It teaches him the importance of studying game film to learn the little things and notice tendencies in a defense and in his upcoming opponents. Johnny is watching a QB who is older, slower, and has a weaker arm than him out play him for the second time in his life. (last year was the first time) Make no mistake the Browns want to see Johnny succeed, they are doing their best to make sure that happens, and for their sakes and ours lets hope he does.

grrrrrrr Everybody in the organization has been thinking long term since we drafted Johnny. The only exception to that was Johnny himself as he drank and partied last season away. He is now on the same page with everybody else and is busting his butt to improve.

It sure sounds like you want a reboot of the coaching staff or at least part of it?

I want a reboot of Johnny for last year, and some of our fans this year lol