DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Declining Student Resilience: A Serious Problem for Colleges

You know what I've noticed about kids these days? There are a lot of lazy parents who don't have the stomach to do their job properly.

One example: awhile ago I was at a convenience store one morning, and there was this overweight kid with his mom - who was wearing pajama bottoms in public - and she bought him a bag of potato chips and a chocolate bar and said " there's your lunch for school."

I said to self: "can't you make him a healthier lunch?"

I completely agree with this part of your post, the rest of it was wrong.

As a responsible ADULT you need to look at yourself and consider everything you know and believe. You need to fix the things holding you back or down and you need to grasp the things that are best for your life. This is your responsibility as an ADULT. Take stock of yourself!

As an ADULT, I learned the inner workings of the Stock Market, I learned how to run a Business. I was raised as an Atheist and as you know, I rethought that. I raised 3 kids to ADULTHOOD and taught them to be responsible for themselves at 18. They failed, they succeeded, they taught themselves what they needed to add and subtract to their lives so they could succeed. They all have succeeded and continue to grow.

I raised them to be complete and hating Racists but as young ADULTS they looked at my teachings for themselves and their own lives and unfortunately chose to see us all as seeds planted and growing into a wide variety of wonderful colors, all different but the same, creating something beautiful to behold.

Blame no one for who you are, it is all on you once you reach adulthood. Choose wisely!

I haven't read most of the posts on this but....From the story it seems to me that it could just be the pressure from trying so hard to be a good student. Could be acting out in a different way. My girl is in her last year and shares an apartment with 3 others. The other night a girl came back after dark and started crying because she had to walk around a group of boys to get back to the apt. My girl said she felt bad because she didn't know what to say to her. What can you say? I just think it's the pressure of school.

Two words. Face Book.

Actually it's Facebook,a one word title.

See here's the thing, it basically comes down to two things: Parents and Will/Determination.

As someone who teaches at a prestigious, and expensive university, this is what I've come to learn

Parenting: Can be broken down to two categories (in the population that I serve). 1) Those who entitle their kids. These kids are used to the world being handed to them on a silver platter. All problems can be fixed with some money. Some of these kids I feel as though their parents paid their way through their education, literally. The average GPA of our students on a 4.0 scale is a 4.2. These students certainly do not seem to meet these requirements. Simple comprehension just doesn't seem to line up and these students are always the ones who ask if projects/tests will be graded on a curve. When the answer given is a NO, they are floored. These students usually will ask what it will take to grade theirs more generously than their peers.

Now with that being said, these students are in the minority however they are usually the ones who get the most publicity.

Now on the positive side, I've had students who could have had this same scenario as their parents are equally loaded, however their parents make them "earn their keep". Usually, to stereotype, these parents are self made parents and don't come from a long line of money. Yes, you could do anything you want, but you better prove to me that you want it because otherwise you aren't getting it. This becomes the student who has a passion for what they want to do. Now, I'm sure Clem surely agrees with this but coming from a background of money certainly helps in the arts. There are plenty of opportunities to make great money but you aren't going to get there overnight. It takes a lot of work, and usually a second job at the beginning to make ends meet. Those with the means to not need a second job can (not necessarily saying they do) spend more time practicing and get to that success much quicker.

Of course, there are always exceptions to these.

Now on to that Will/Determination. I've seen too many students who just didn't have this will. No matter the means that you come from, you need this to succeed in any avenue. I started teaching at an open enrollment HBCU. Certainly the wealth backgrounds of these students does not match my current students. However, those who are motivated to succeed and willing to put in the work often do. Granted of course, in our profession, at the end of the day the arts have certain requirements that you just can't teach. Some people can succeed without these skills, others can't. This gets back to the will and determination. Surrounding yourself with people who can help you succeed. One of my favorite examples of this is Frank Gehry, one of the most famous living architects. Cleveland has one of his buildings at Case Western. He has risen to so much fame as an architect but he can't draw. He has surrounded himself with people who helped him get there. Here are some examples of his sketches. Had he not had the will to succeed, he certainly had all of the makings of a failure. Instead he refused that path and found a way to make it work.

This category doesn't matter where you came from. You either have it or you don't. All wealth backgrounds have those who do or don't have that will.


Now, onto the other problem with higher education. This is a category that I currently fall into and is a hot button issue with a lot of people on both sides. I do not have, nor do I have the possibility of tenure. Higher Education is moving away from the tenure track model and moving towards the lecturer line. They are cheaper, and easier to get a rid of. Not having tenure hurts the students. I know a lot of people would disagree but it does and I'll tell you why. 100% of my job stability comes from student teaching reviews. 0% comes from my professional work, research, or service. I'm not kidding. If I don't cater and fold to my students, I won't be invited back. The students have all of the power, and they aren't stupid. They know they have the power. It is a VERY FINE line being fair and just while not losing favor with the students. Very early on here, I was instructed by a higher up that I should ultimately fold to the student vs. teaching reality. I have not honored this device but I must admit it is an extremely difficult juggling act. It is also the main reason why I am starting to look for new employment. The good of tenure: It protects the professor. Tenured professors have the clout to be fair. They don't depend on these student reviews. Sadly, and I'm not kidding here, I can have a class of 30 students and 28 of these student reviews are extremely positive and several students even checkmark the box nominating the teacher for the teacher of the year award. Now about those other 2, they said that the professor was terrible and shouldn't stay on as a professor. Ironically, these students have missed most of their classes and are justly failing but feel as though they should be entitled to not be held to the same standards of their peers. There is perfect documentation of this fact and potentially even written statements from other students inquiring about their absences. Even with all of this, my faculty evaluation might say most students "liked" this professor but these two students stated that ________________________. No mention of the positives, but the negatives get spelled out in detail no matter if they were just or not. All I can do is present the documentation in a rebuttal and hope that they agree. Usually, nothing is ever heard back. Likewise, a tenured professor is free to experiment with new ways of reaching students. Every year the student population changes and we must change with them. Tenured professors can take more risks versus teaching just basics to the masses. Now clearly, there are negative sides of it allowing professors to not care. These people are in the minority in Higher Ed and the negatives of eliminating tenure far outweigh the positives of eliminating it.

Now lastly I have to say that most students are far more observant than we give them credit for. Most students you can sit down and say "you did __________" and they will instantly jump in and explain that they realize they messed up and what they hope to do to fix it. Follow through on this isn't always there but they at least notice their mistakes.

Wow, that is a tough situation you are in. Who in the H set up such a system? Catch22 at its worst.

As far a the New money vs Old money thingy, If you are born a Rothschild, you will succeed no matter what. You will be rich all of your life and have people to teach you the ins and outs of Money. Wasn't the head of the Dupont family insane for most of his life? Few new, money fixes much.

New money knows what poor is and they demand more of their kids. Their kids must be able to stand on their own feet and have their heads together.

Good luck with your situation and don't hesitate to seek Counciling if needed.

I hear this crap about how taking tests doesn't show what children learn and that we should be teaching by the old methods of trying to teach a more critical thinking basis. That taking so many tests is why kids can't think or make decisions any more.

All I can say to that is what a load of horse crap! I mean seriously, your trying to say that because a student is asked to gain a certain amount of BASIC knowledge that they can no longer use their brains? That gaining knowledge will make them stupider? Seriously?!

Standardized tests are there to make make sure that we can make sure that even lazy worthless teachers are held accountable for poor teaching. This tests are there to make SURE the students are actually learning something. The only teachers that need to be afraid are the ones who don't know how to teach and are used to being lazy and doing the bare minimum to get by.

Any competent teacher can teach their kids to learn the information AND teach it while improving critical thinking skills by using interactive lessons that are well planned and executed. The problem is too many teachers and especially new and young teachers don't have good lesson plans and even worse time management and organization skills so they end up doing a boring lecture style lesson that puts the kids to sleep and doesn't spark and kind of interests or they go to the other extreme and try to be the students' friends and worry more about being fun and liked than teaching actual content.

GOOD teachers know how to find lesson resources, keep the children on a firm time schedule, keep strict classroom discipline, and challenge their students to achieve.

BAD teachers show up to work, whine about what they need to get taught, whine about being asked to prove they taught something by having their students tested to prove they were taught something, or come up with a long list of excuses why their kids are unteachable.

Have high expectations of your students and they will over achieve. have low expectations and they will always fail you because you failed to first believe in them.

I have worked with inner city schools and especially with the worst of the school's failing students. I mean the VERY worst students. Bad parents, bad principals, bad teachers, the works. Once I placed high expectations on them, showed that I believed they could reach those expectations, and then demanded their best. 100% of them improved. Many of them improved dramatically.

Did all of those students meet the goals I set for them? NO. Yet, all of them far surpassed the goals they set for themselves and what the school set for them. The goals I set are always very tough and demanding because when you aim for the top and to be the best you ALWAYS finished better that you would have if you had aimed at just getting by.

If you can't handle teaching students the basic knowledge required of them to know and learn then you don't deserve to be a teacher. At the least you need to go back and learn some new and better techniques so you can be a better teacher because the tests don't lie. Your students either know what you taught or they don't. I was never afraid to have my students tested on the things they should know. teachers should embrace it as a way to gage how well they are teaching the things their kids need to know instead of whining because they are being held accountable.

The one thing that should happen though is that for those kids who just refuse to learn they should be sent to an educational boot camp and forced to learn. We are WAY too lenient on lazy students. After all it's not always the teacher's fault. It's not always the parents' fault either. Sometimes a kid just needs to be straightened out. Boot camp is a great way to create fast attitude adjustments especially when you will never leave it until your grades improve. Society needs to stop being so darned soft.

So far, sounds like me with an education!

You guys are burning my eyeballs out of my head with these long posts!
I continue to read now...

Done reading now and I gotta say I am rooting for you when it comes to dragging the best out of those kids!

A friend of mine teaches in inner city DC schools and says the kids run wild through the place. Teachers and Principal say they are just playing, he thinks its undisciplined and does not support a learning atmosphere.

I'm not against standardized tests, but they've been shown to be way too easy to manipulate. I also find that it only hurts the very worst of teachers. Bad teachers are looked over as they fall safe within the safe graces of the testing numbers. I think a better way to get rid of unfit teachers would be to raise the requirements to get your teaching degree. There's no reason for a Law or Business degree to be harder than a teaching degree.

My effectiveness cannot be judged based off of a datapoint from a test that measure rote memorization. My job is more than just deposit knowledge into the kids. My job involves having the kids use their learning styles (not all kids...actually the majority...learn best from memorizing facts), helping them reach the goals they choose, and support them however I can.

Get that weak stuff outta here.

Nice post. What do you think of the school start times? I think most high school start unreasonably early, and it has a significant effect on how well kids learn and behave.

- Adolescents need more sleep than adults for optimum functioning. It's something like 8-9 vs 6-8 (take an hour off those figures for those lucky enough to be able to take a short power nap in the afternoon.)

- Adolescents are biologically predisposed to sleeping later in the night. It's perfectly natural for them to sleep in a bit.

- My high school started at 7:30am. Let's break that down a bit and assume that some people have to take the bus. The bus might arrive at 6:30am or sooner, which means some kids will have to get up at 5:30 or so in order to shower, get ready, eat breakfast etc.

Oh and it's even more ridiculous than that-- since daylight saving time is in effect for 7-8 months out of the year, that 5:30 is in effect more like 4:30am. Maybe we need to rethink this whole idea of waking our kids up in the middle of the subjective night with heavy alarm clock artillery in order to get them to school. You can't learn effectively in conditions of sleep deprivation.

- Modern lifestyle is such that electronic lighting is everywhere of course, and TV/computers/tablets/smart phones emit light that keep people up later. Sleep is getting compressed from both ends.

Some schools have shifted to starting school later and invariably there is an improvement in grades and behavior.

http://discover.umn.edu/news/teaching-ed...ool-start-times

http://www.telegram.com/article/20130916/NEWS/309169949

The phrase, "Burning daylight." can summarize my feelings on that.

My first grader grabs the bus at 730am. My 8th grader at 830am. It works MUCH better for the older ones sleeping habits. I'm unsure of the start time for the high school, but I do know the elementary schools start first.

It is undisciplined. Playtime if for recess. classrooms and hallways are for learning and getting to learning. I am a FIRM believer in recess by the way.

90% of what they will learn and use in college will be learning vast amounts of information, memorizing it, and then figuring out how to use it the way their insane and possibly senile college professor wants them too. Simple FACT is students have a LOT of information that has to be memorized to get to the point they can start applying it. Vocabulary, math formulas, and processes just to name the basics. If they are not great at memorizing things then you need to teach them how to. If fact all schools should be teaching learning strategies so they can learn what they need to learn easier. It's one of the first things I always teach my students.

You can't assume that all kids whatever age they actually know how to study and learn. So many teachers and schools are absolutely horrible at teaching the basics of how to study, organize what your studying, self-testing, and various other learning strategies.

Saying you have to cater to various learning styles is just a cop out. You can develop a learning plan that uses all of the major learning styles and never get anywhere if you can't get your kids to put in the time to do the boring work of memorizing what they need to know so they can learn to apply it because you can't apply what you don't know.

I think it's tricky. How does a parent get their kids to school if they have to go to work before their kids do? I know I was always so dead tired until about lunch time so the classes I had in the morning always suffered even if the teachers were great.

I would prefer the school day start at 9am and end at 5pm just like a normal job. Let them have a 1 hour lunch and a 1 hour study hall. I also think shorter classes 5 times a week works a lot better than very long classes a few times a week. 45 minute classes with 15 minutes in between so kids, especially shy ones, can come up to teacher after class to ask questions before they move on and so their minds can refresh a little before the next class is ideal IMHO.

As a teacher I would then plan 2 sessions 20 minutes each with a 5 minute break in between. It's been proven in numerous studies that its hard for kids to stay focused seriously for more than 20 minutes at a time and that with long lectures they just start to forget most of what your teaching due to the limited capacity of a student's short term memory. You have to use the science along with the techniques and disciplines if you want the best results from students.

They often do that so the school district can use the same busses for different grade levels and keep the older kids from picking on the younger ones. I dated a girl once who got molested on a school bus by an older student when she was just 12 years old. Needless to say my daughters get taken to school by car.

Seems pretty reasonable. That break structure is similar enough to the Pomodoro Technique, where 3-5 minute breaks are usually taken every half hour, with the occasional longer break. I can't exactly follow it but I do follow the spirit of the technique with short breaks where appropriate. My creative effort declines significantly if I just keep barreling through (perks of working for yourself.)

I remember in middle school, we used to get a 30 minute study hall and then a 30 minute lunch. I always thought that was backwards. Lengthen that a bit and put the study hall after lunch and let the kids nap if they want to. Alertness is at the midday low and all the moreso after a meal. Better to just let the kids catch up on sleep; a 20 minute power nap can shave at least an hour off the night sleep and boost cognitive performance in the second half of the day to boot. This is why innovative tech companies like Google and Apple allow and even encourage their employees to take a nap. Yet in schools and most workplaces, doing so is a sign of weakness, laziness etc.

They are just playing, but there is a time to play and time to not play. In school, unless you are at recess or PE, is NOT usually a time to play. In between classes, during classes.. NOT a time to play.

It goes to the whole issue of discipline. Most of the "teeth" these teachers had to discipline kids is gone and kids aren't stupid... they know there is really no punishment so they have no respect. Not to mention, most parents, when I was in school, if the school called... they sided with the school. Now they side with the kid, they defend the kid, the bad mouth the school and treat the kid as if they did nothing wrong.. (assuming the parents are even involved at all)... when I got it at school, I also got it at home because my parents just assumed the school was right.

I feel bad for the kids who want to learn and get a chance at life but are denied because the adults running the school are Dinks.

I refuse to change my teaching style due to how universities work. Most college professors may be wise, but many lack in actual teaching methods.They work at the university to research, and educating young adults usually falls second to them. Most couldn't be bothered to learn how to lesson plan, adapt tough curriculum to all learners, or be bothered to learn about all the learning modalities.

I refuse to teach how to memorize. Memorization isn't learning. Memorization is being a parrot, and not learning how to apply it.



True. That's why I use class time to review with my students. Any little bit I can get accomplished offsets any that won't happen when they leave.

This is why reviewing key concepts at the onset, and at the end of a lesson works. The whole "go home and study! gets defeated once a teacher bothers to actually review in class.



This is a harsh reality all teachers need to face. We must adapt our instruction to best fit the learning modalities of each student. We must use multiple delivery methods in a single lesson. Failure to use multiple modalities ends up with us leaving students in the dust.

Students can't "apply and memorize" because we shoehorn them into a model that usually doesn't work for them. Bending students to our will isn't the purpose of education. Education is about meeting students where they're at, and pushing them to excel beyond measure.

The current tests fail to measure meaningful learning.

Yes, all school districts usually have staggered starts to reduce busing. Where I came from, high school went first, then middle, then elementary. it seems to be opposite here.

I KILLED on Trivia Night.
...and Jeopardy is the ONLY "game show" worth watching.

I agree ... I remember a comedian making fun of this one time saying how game show prizes have no correlation to the difficulty of the game. In Jeopardy you have to pass a test just to get an audition episode, in which you have to beat out a bunch of other people who passed the test just to get on the show. You then have to answer a multitude of difficult questions, just to get a few thousand dollars and a pat on the back from Alex Trebec.

Meanwhile on Price Is Right, you can get a Motorhome and a trip to Italy just for knowing the price of Windex is more than the price of Brillo Pads. And to get on the show, all you have to do is recognize your name when they call it. And if that's too hard for you, they spell it out on a name tag and put it on your shirt for you.

Thank you.

I don't take it personally. The generation before me just has more ways to tell my generation that they suck lol.

With the advent of social media (most of which was developed by *gasp* millenials) it's now really easy to tell everyone how lazy millenials are!

This is my opinion, and derived from my personal experience and observations.

While as you say, most of the social media was developed by millennials, since then, the advent of technology that has become "so simple your grandmother can use it", has created a newer generation of youth that can use technology, but are less in-depth about it's operation than the Gen-Xers and Millennials.

Basically, I think they are becoming less technologically capable.

It's just there, and has been their whole life, so they don't need to understand it, or how it works. The type of people who will bang on the remote trying to get it to work, never realizing that the batteries are probably dead.

I'm just going to throw this out there from personal observation and if anybody agrees we can get into the "why"... but has anybody else who is of that age group or spends a lot of time around that age group (teachers, coaches, parents), noticed that this lazy problem, this lack of motivation problem, this lack of problem solving ability problem... seems to be far worse among boys than it is girls?

You've probably already seen it. But, if you haven't, watch Whiplash. I get the sense you'd love it.

Encouraged by the arrival of Escape Rooms. These activities encourage creative thinking, thinking outisde the box, group cooperation and the necessity for actual communication among players.

If you have not gone to one, try it. Great fun and more difficult than one may think.

yes

Heck I notice that trend among some of my friends, most of whom are between their mid 20s and early 30s.

Philip Zimbardo (known most commonly for his Stanford Prison Experiment) has a good TED talk about this titled 'The Demise of Guys'.

fun movie.

JK Simmons is amazing.

“Does a child get a job because they can read well, write well and have competent math skills, or do they get a job for supporting gay marriage and gun control?”

- Alice Linehan, Voices Empower

I will try to find the TED talk, I've heard of those but never checked them out....

So why do you think that is happening? I have my own opinions.

Just a quick Google search

https://www.ted.com/talks/zimchallenge?language=en

I can't think of another poster at this site who would enjoy TED talks more than you. I've 'profiled' a number of other posters here who I think would enjoy them too (... simply from the way they post here in "EE"). I've been watching them for years. Any subject that might interest me- there's someone out there who has found an inspirational way to present it to me. Robotics. Human Rights. The Power of the Mind, deaf professional musicians (yes. deaf. look up Evelyn Glennie), philosophers- anything.

It's one of the coolest net resources I've found since going online in the mid '90's. Well worth your time.

Get over there, son... and start getting your 'learn' on!

Some criticisms of the TED talk:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/men-20/201205/the-demise-particular-type-guy

http://www.amazon.com/Inclusive-Masculin...0257&sr=8-1

http://www.downloadtheuniverse.com/dtu/2...d-books-ki.html