DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Question for the board.

I have been milling this over for a few days and wanted to throw it out for general discussion.

Having 2 first round selections this past draft was great, but will it make it hard to sign our guys? Here is the issue I have.

Is the Thomas camp going to wait until Quinn is signed to see where the peg is, or is the Quinn camp going to wait for Thomas to be signed so they can gauge where they need to be??

My thinking is Thomas is going to wait for the Quinn details before he signs. I think it is pretty sure Quinn is going to seek and get better than 22 money.....it is just a question of how much.


But....I can see it the other way too.

What do you think??

If there is a problem it will be with BQ. ... Joe is going to get # 3 money , period ! That will be what ever it will be ! .

i think we got 2 guys with good heads on their shoulders. i think we'll get both of them in camp on time. i dont see quinn holding out for better than #22 money, either. jmo.

Personally, I don't think the Thomas camp will be waiting on Quinn, but instead trying to get a similar contract to Vince Young's ridiculous #3 contract from last year. That is where I see the hold up being on that one. With that said, I'd expect no more than a 6-7 day holdout.

Now Quinn on the other hand has the anti-Christ Tom Condon calling his shots. He'll make the argument he was a top 5 pick, and will try to get a contract probably similar to Leinhart's last year (#10). I see the Quinn holdout lasting into the 2-3 week zone, unfortunately.

Good question, Peen.

I agree with ya. Thomas will sign after Quinn because they want to see how much he's getting. But I don't see Quinn signing too late. He said right after he was drafted that he wants to get in there immediately and told his agent to get a deal done quickly so he's in camp. If that happens, hopefully Thomas quickly follows suit.

Nah...They're too far seperated Peen...

The Thomas camp is going to want to see the details of 1-5 ..... and the Quinn camp is going to want to see the details of 18-24, as well as the Russel deal for comparison sake. (difference between QB and other positions)

They already have some idea of what they are going to want ...... and other "comparison deals" are only going to be used to try and increase their expectations.

It's easy to be fooled by the comments new draftees make when picked,,, things like, I'll be in camp on time and such.. But putting that aside, I get the feeling that Thomas will be in camp and I doubt that Quinns contract has any bearing on what he signs for.

The risk, as I see it is Quinn. Mostly I think it depends on the stance his agent takes..

Quinn was, by all predraft thinking, a top 10 pick.. most thought he was a Top 5 pick in fact. Reality bites in a way,, because he ended up being the 22nd pick.. with that comes a certain or expected level of compensation. Perhaps normally, whatever the 22nd pick of the draft received last year plus a little more.

But we have a different situation here.. we have a guy that was supposed to be drafted higher and he may hold out for more than that normally associated with the 22nd pick. He may want more like number 10 money or something..

That's the rub I think.. Will Savage fall for it or will he look at the situation with Aaron Rodger in Green Bay.. Here's a guy that was also supposed to go in the top 10 and he ended up being drafted 24th instead.

Myself, I don't think it matters where you were PROJECTED to be drafted. All that matters is where you were ACTUALLY drafted. But I could see his agent trying to make a case otherwise..

That I think leads to a hold out and in the end, costs Brady Quinn the starting job.. at least in the beginning of the year...

They are too far separated for one to wait for the other. I think Thomas will peg his contract to last years # 3, as well as numbers 1 and 2 this year. Quinn, with Condon as his agent won't be in Camp.

Condon has already said that Quinn was a top 5 pick.... Condon will try for top 5 money and Quinn will go for the ride. It will be a long drawn out process and will probably not conclude until numbers 1 through 20 have signed...

No Peen , Thomas will want top five money..Quinn's camp knows he can't get that ..
The target they will aim at is probably where Phil first started to try to get him..at 11...
The one thing both said..and I don't put full weight into it, was that neither had any kind of money before so they may not be as money-hungry as others we have seen..now the agents, thats a different story..

You could be right as could anybody.

But i do see a comparison between our players and not just to the players slotted around their draft position.

Like I said, I think it is reasonable to assume Quinn is going to get better than #22 money. With all the Browns did to get him, it would almost be stupid to sign for that.....we have to remember, this is a free market, there is no real slotting figure they have to follow....as someone pointed out...Leinart is a good example....and qbs do get more....just a fact of life.

That said, I think Thomas and his agent are going to want to make sure there is enough separation between the Quinn figures and the figures they take.

3rd overall pick vs 22nd overall pick It will go pretty much by the slotting. I do think Quinn will likely see a lot more bonuses worked into his contract.

One contract will not have anything to do with the other at all. After the 8th pick the money starts to drop considerable.

how long has the cutoff been the 8th pick Mourg .... i would imagine the #of the pick keeps getting lower every 2 or 3 years?? so by say 2012 the big dropoff will occur after the #10 pick ..

just curious as to how often the # of the pick changes on where the big dropoff in $$$ occurs ...

I predict BQ will be the bigger issue at signing, as his agent will argue that he shoudl have been a top 5 pick, I'd tell him "Yeah and I'm supposed to be a rockstar, but I'm not, and Brady wasn't picked in the top 5, life isn't fair, get over it. Is he going to sign for #22 money, or is he going to holdout then hold a clipboard all year?"

Remember last year, Wimbley was like the first pick in the Top 15 to sign and everyone started to sign shortly thereafter. It'll depend on who signs first and where the market falls around #3 for Thomas and #22 for Quinn. I can understand Quinn will want better money but he also NEEDS to get in camp if he has any shot at competing for the QB position. However, like it has been mentioned several times, Quinn was not grabbed out of the first round for next year's #1 to sit and hold a clipboard. I think that Condon will use that against Phil in negotiations. Who knows? I just hope they both get in camp on time.

First off the process as it now stands is detrimental to the team and the players and only benefits the agents. You really hit a nerve with me on this topic. The league and NFLPA needs to slot rookies. This process of holding the team hostage while the rookies lose valuable practice time is way out of hand.

However, to answer your original question The 3rd guy will get last years deal plus 10%. I don't see a holdout with Thomas. Quinn maybe a little different. He will probably get more than 22 money. The real question with Quinn is who is in control, the agent or the client? If Quinn is going to have any shot at starting he cannot miss any time. If he takes a passive position with the agent and lets the agent control the process then it may get ugly.

As I said in the beginning this is a destructive process and a holdout will hinder all parties. The good vibes will go away and if time is missed by either player it will really hurt their progress and possible ruin their rookie year. I sure hope logic prevails and both sign early and miss zero time.

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I don't think the Thomas camp will be waiting on Quinn, but instead trying to get a similar contract to Vince Young's ridiculous #3 contract from last year.

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Nah... the Thomas camp is hopefully smart enough to know that QB money and LT money aren't the same.. if anything, Thomas will be considering D'Brick money as the #4 pick, also an OT from last year... If they hold out for Vince Young money, then they are just stupid...

Quinn will likely want, and should probably get slightly better than #22 money.. my fear is that if he doesn't get more, he's going to want a shorter deal in hopes of doing well and cashing in the big pay day sooner...

it used to be after 5 the big fall started. the last few years with some holdouts the big money has been lasting to 8 it could start to slide even farther this year with the record cap.

so are u saying its falling about a slot a year???

i have no clue, thats why i asked .. i was just curious as i pay very little attention to this stuff ... but i do have a business mentality and was wondering how fast the big bucks are sliding down ..

In a perfect world, I'd like to see Quinn's contract fall under #22 money with escalations and performance based incentives to net him a lot more if he plays and if he does well.... I think both sides win in that scenario, the Browns win because they get him in camp on time and with less risk if he's not ready to go from day 1.. and Quinn benefits because if he really is ready to go from day 1 and does well, he could increase his take-home big time...

If in my earlier post I gave the impression that Quinn shouldn't expect any consideration for being projected so high in the draft, pardon me. that's not really what I meant. I worded it wrong.

I DO expect Quinn to get a lot more money than a typical 22nd pick.. Don't know if it wil be incentive/performance based or what. But it will be more.

But I don't expect Quinns contract to effect Thomas or the other way around at all..

I hope they both sign quickly.. I mean, if they are going to have any impact on this team, they gotta get in there and begin to work.. For that matter, same goes for Wright..

Despite the hoopla, Thomas still has much more leverage than Quinn.

Quinn signs first barring a catastrophic, ESPN media-blitz hold-out.

Don't forget Crennell's track record with holdouts. Both of these guys have legitimate chances to start and know a holdout could hamper that. I really think Thomas will sign around the time the other top 5 guys sign. As some have already mentioned, I'd think Quinn will want (and I believe does warrant) higher money than 22. While the agents will want them holding out for more, I really do think both of these guys will want to be in camp by the end of the first week so as to not get into Crennell's doghouse.

Well Peen,I'll wade in but most of it has been said before.

Firstly,the huge difference in #22 and #3 dictate that these two contracts won't rely on "each other" to get done.

I think JT's will be a little more cut and dry to a great extent.

Quinn's? That will in all likelihood be a little stickier. IMO- The sticky part will be based on hard #'s vs incentives. I think Quinn will be looking for more garunteed money. While Phil will be looking at a more incentive based contract to give him a chance at the big $$$.

To me,that will be the major stumbling block if one arises.

JMHO

Interesting question, 'Peen.

IMO, we're going to see both of them hold out, Thomas because he wants huge no. 3 money, and Quinn because he feels as a QB, he's worth more and should have been a top 5 pick. I just hope they see how holding out for even a week really hurt Travis Wilson last year, and how getting in to camp on time really helped Wimbley and DQwell.

Joe is going to wait until 2 signs to get an estimate of how much he can sign for.

BQ has no argument he was selected 22nd. It's not based on talent it's based on selection. He might wait until 21 adn 23 sign to get a better feeel for what he will sign for. My guess is that his contract might take a little longer because it's probably going to be incentive loaded.

it appears to stretch about every 3 years mostly due to the draft being top heavy especially with quarterbacks. That seems to set the stage for the next years group to want more. Just like with how the Browns totally screwed up the 3rd slot when they gave Braylon a contract in line with the #1 overall player.

I think the Broncos went well over the chart with Jay Cutler last year and it could make Tedd ginn Jr. a much richer man.

This discussion reminds me of the pitcher that teams bid on for THE RIGHT to negotiate with.. Give me a break.. Yea, we'll take you with our pick and pay you the slotted rate of millions of dollars. Uh ? you say you want more ? You want to see what other guys are making with other employers first ? You want to get the the best deal possible but might want to "renegotiate" later if you see other guys making more than you in a couple years ?

OK.. no problem...

Positional value yes but I still think he will generally be in range with the draftees around him.

They might even go back to Aaron Rodgers' contract and inflate that a little.

It always seem that players generally try to see what the players around them will be makign anyways.

I honestly don't think Brady will be a problem anyways. I think he will make it to camp on time, no problem. I'm sure he wants to get in here as fast as possible and with as much respect as we shown him through the draft I think he will man up and do the same for us and try to get a fair deal done. He seems like a pretty level headed guy.

hard to say what agents will try to fatten thieir wallets
but hopefully JT and BQ tell them get the best cantract you can before the start of camp because i will be there from day 1 with or without you

Quinn will probably sign first. Drafts always sign from the bottom up. I don't know for sure but I'll bet a lot of the late round draftees are already signed.

Brady Quinn will be among the first to sign. He knows he needs to be in camp to wrestle the job away from Fry. Thomas on the other hand knows he has the job. He can hold out, and so can we for a while, because of Schaffer
Quinn knows he won't make the elite money this year. But he also knows he'll get it the next contract. Maybe as early as next year.

I think Condon is going to start at no less than #12 money...because it has been reported all over the place as that was when the Browns started making phone calls. so the argument will be that they saw and were willing to pay for a #12 pick....