DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2015 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 23 Broncos 26 Post Game Thoughts

You know this is the way it goes in EVERY market, right?

I'd rather be annoying and distract the opponent than be passive and not.

This.

so many things I want to say about this franchise, but there is one glaring thing to me:

Look how many early draft picks do not contribute AT ALL ... it's freaking disgusting

Couple that with a guy like Bowe who hasn't even been ACTIVE

We are not good enough to overcome our mistakes. Some teams are, we are not. We are not even good enough to overcome a wash. That's the difference. We cannot afford to make the same mistakes good teams can afford to make. So, those 3 turnovers did cost us.

And if it isn't poor clock management it's the unorganized D struggling to get onto the field or it's a questionable decision to go for 2. Gameday coaching can be better as well.

j/c:

FWIW

Cleveland Browns

– QB Josh McCown’s (-3.7) pass from a clean pocket at 14:19 of the second quarter was among the worst you’ll see at any level, and it was punished with a pick-six, while his decision to chuck the ball with 53 seconds remaining in the fourth quarter cost the Browns a chance at ending the game in regulation. He particularly struggled when pressured, taking a sack on a quarter of those plays and finishing with a 4.4 passer rating on 16 dropbacks.

– A season-high grade for LB Karlos Dansby (+2.4) after a pair of interceptions and decent flat coverage. He also compiled four defensive stops, though he went back-and-forth in run defense, getting sealed at the second level at times but also shedding blockers to squeeze the point of attack, including at 6:22 of overtime.

– This was another solid game for the Browns offensive line, and particularly right tackle Mitchell Schwartz, who followed up his +4.4 effort against Baltimore with a +1.9 overall grade on Sunday. He largely kept Von Miller in check, allowing just one non-nullified pressure, though he came close on a number of plays. His work resulted in Miller’s worst pass rush output of the season.

Top performers:

LT Joe Thomas (+3.4)
C Alex Mack (+3.2)
LB Karlos Dansby (+2.4)
DE Desmond Bryant (+2.0)
LB Barkevious Mingo (+1.9)

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20...tory-yet-again/

The PFT grades are just about what I expected ... our OL played well I thought

LBs played better than any other game

QB/Coaching decisions crapped the bed

My Monday morning postgame thoughts:



The coaching controversies

The decision to go for it on 4th down in the 1st quarter. I don't have a problm with this. Aggressive move. IF we make if a great call that everyone is lauding. There are a couple of questions that I have about it. 1st, how long would the fg attempt have been? 2nd, does anybody know Coons range?

The decision to not call timeouts during the Denver drive before the half. Again, I don't have a problem with this. One small play by the Denver offense and calling a timeout could result in a Denver TD as a result of the extra time. Given the way that our defense has played coming into this game, I wouldn't want to give any offense more time. As for we could have scored before the half, what did our offense show against the Denver D to suggest that it would anything. Not only do I not have a problem with this decision, I personally agree with it.

The decision to go for two instead of taking the extra point. Inconceivable. This was a total bonehead move and I can see no justification whatsoever. In my opinion, this failed 2-pt conversion cost us the game. Yes, I know the Broncos could have made the 2-pt conversion. But their making it would not have been a gimmie and is certainly much more difficult than kicking the extra point.

The only other coaching criticism I have is the play calling after the OT interception. After a slow start, Turbin looked like a bowling ball busting up the center of the line. I would have pounded Turbin at that point. FLip should have seen and recognized this. I will chalk it up to his lack of experience as an OC and that the 2nd half of this game is the 1st time all season that we had any success rushing up the gut. And what is up with that pass to the Fb? I think he outsmarted himself. Get the ball to your best playmakers. Malcolm Johnson is not one of them.



The Offense

If we learn how to use Turbin, I think he will be a big boon to the offense.

McCown, not a good day for him. 'nuff said. I don't have the patience to type all his criticisms for this game out. Let's say he has played like a Brown this season. A couple good games to get our hopes up only to turn around and crush them. Deep down we all knew those past couple games were an aberration.

The o-line showed a big improvement. Struggled at times in obvious passing downs but against this defense most olines would have too. I like the aggression they showed late in the game with Turbin running behind them.

Barnidge is the man.

At Wr, I play Benji, Hawkins and Gabriel as my top 3 then use Duke Johnson if I want to go 4 wide. We don't have a big physical receiver so let's overload with small quick guys and see if the defense can keep up. Hartline is a great locker room guy but he just isn't fast enough or big enough to be anyb type of impact player.



The Defense

Nice game by Dansby.

Desir had a nice game. He is developing nicely.

Overall good game by the defense.

That Sanders TD was an abomination. Way to give all the momentum right back to Denver. No excuse for Poyer on that one.

We have no pass rush. Did Armonty Bryant play? Can we come up with any kind of creative blitz to confuse the oline and get a sack that way?

How do you stop an off-tackle run?

Our linebackers are slow. Kruger is slow. Orchard is even slower.

Our Db's play well for 2/3 to 3/4 of every game. Unfortunately, the bad plays occur at the worst times.



Special Teams

A+ to Coons and Lee. Can Coons not kick it out of the back of the endzone? Why don't they let him?

Teams are afraid to punt it to Benji.

Draughn needs to let Gilbert come up and catch the short kickoff.




The Team in General

We need more team speed on defense.

Why do other teams have players who come into the NFL and get bigger and stronger? Are we the only team not using anabolic steroids or is there some other issue?

We need a pass rush.

As per the norm, our Qb room is a mess. How long do we stay with McCown? And I don't ask this because he played a poor game. But we lost and we are now 2-4. His playing serves no purpose. He won't develop with playing time. He's not helping us learn what it takes to become a winner. And when that switch happens, who do you turn to? I would move to Austin Davis as soon as he learns enough of the playbook. I liked his promise coming out of college. I liked what I saw from him with the Rams. As for Manziel, I wouldn't have drafted him in the 1st place. I am tired of his crap. I have no hope that he will develop into a decent Qb let alone a good one.

The front office is a mess. I love the idea of continuity but there has to be some modicum of success of indication of improvement. I have seen neither from Farmer. He has one A move (drafting Bitonio in the 2nd). A couple of B moves (drafting Kirksey, signing Dansby). As for the number of moves that grade an F, I don't have enough time to outline all those moves and any regular on this message board has read about those moves ad nauseum already. I hate hate hate the idea of blowing things up yet again but I don't see how this guy keeps his job after the end of the season.

As for Pettine, I like the guy as a person and as a coach. This team does pretty well for what he has to work with. Having said that he makes some head scratching moves. I wish he would have come out and said he screwed up going for two but that he would learn from it. I could live with that. Instead it sounds like he feels he made the right decision and would do it again. IF Farmer goes, I can't see the new GM keeping this coaching staff. But what top candidate would want to come here and take this team over given the quick trigger finger exhibited by the organization if we fire Farmer and Pettine after 2 years.

This is kind of where I'm at. Actually I've been at this point for a while, but I really just look at Browns games as an opportunity to go out and have some drinks with friends now. Really, I can always have fun doing that (it doesn't have to be a football game), but if it takes a Browns game to get people out, great.

I've noticed that I don't even really post about football anymore on here. I've posted more about the Cavs, politics, and even side issues in football than actual football. The thing is is that I actually love football, I've spent way too much time watching it (not as much recently of course)... I just don't really care enough to post about it or argue about it or whatever. Call it apathy. It doesn't bother me much when the Browns lose anymore.

Apologies to those who would rather read something about actual football. I know posts like this aren't constructive or enjoyable to read.

I'm right here. The Browns played the best D in the league and came within a gnats eyelash of winning.

all in all, I'm pretty pleased. Yeah, there were a few things that I didn't get. Like why go for 2 when, as it turns out, 1 would have won the game in regulation.

And for all the dansby haters, how's two INT's and one for a Pick 6 for you.

Was happy to see Mingo do something good.. Too little for a 1st round pick for my money..

That Denver D line sure disrupted everything but still, we moved the ball pretty well.

One thing for sure, Manning isn't the manning of old, but still, he's pretty effective in the clutch. And he had a ton of clutch moments yesterday..

I was disappointed in the loss for sure, but I wasn't disappointed in the team.

Unlike some folks, I try to take an even look at things and not overreact to one or two bad plays.

There are no medals for second place, we did some good things, we are just a couple pieces away or moral victories. That crap is been said for years now. The Browns lost and losing SUCKS!

Final grade: D

McCown's touchdown passes capped impressive second-half drives (eight plays, 74 yards; eight plays, 80 yards). He deserves plenty of credit for those drives, especially because the points came against an elite defense that entered the day having allowed one TD pass.

McCown's other work, though, was decidedly ugly. Bottom line: He spent far too much of the game under-performing.

Two TD possessions: 8-of-9 for 125 yards, two touchdowns; one scramble for 11 yards.

13 other possessions (not including kneel-down at end of regulation): 12-of-30 for 88 yards, two interceptions, four sacks, one fumble.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/10/cleveland_browns_denver_bronco.html#incart_river

I don't agree w/all of it, but that was an excellent post. You made a ton of great points and your writing was very good.

j/c

Here's my take on going for 2:

I wish I could draw a table on this site to show the matrix of possibilities. It's hard to describe by words.

Traditionally, being up by either 4 or 5 points is generally a wash. 2 FGs beat you and any TD combination beats you. These are both negative outcomes.

Being up by 6 means that 2 FGs only TIE you and a TD puts the pressure on the opposing kicker to make the extra point. In this scenario, one is a neutral outcome (a tie) and one is a negative outcome (a TD plus a made extra point). A missed extra point is a neutral outcome.

In that moment, without knowing if any team will score after that, I think you go for 2, go up 6 and put the pressure on them. Pettine chose the ONLY scenario where a neutral outcome was a possibility.

You need to remember, up to that point in the game, we hadn't given up a TD on defense. We were giving up FGs.

We all have the advantage of criticizing Pettine after the fact because we know how it played out. But honestly, I think it was the right call at the time.

Just think about it this way...
We kick the extra point and go up by 5. Denver scores 2 more FGs and we lose by one. Or worse, Denver scores a TD and misses the extra point and still wins by 1. How many of you would be screaming at Pettine for NOT going for 2? Hindsight truly is 20/20 here.

I'm not 100% sold on Pettine in any way, shape or form but I'll never criticize a head coach for being aggressive and trying to win.

j/c

One more thing I'll say, I really enjoy watching Joe Thomas play. Who was it that he was blocking? Whoever it was, he'd take two steps, and that was the end of his involvement in the play. Thomas just gobbles those guys up. It's amazing.

Call it a hunch, or call it my Browns pessimism, but I think this is his last year in Cleveland. I think he's either going to demand a trade or do the Carson Palmer "retire until you're ready to move me." I don't know why I feel that way, but I just have this feeling.

It'd be hard to blame him.

I agree w/ Fouts that Manning isn't comfortable in Denver's system.|
(Also that he's a shell of the old Manning)
I'm used to seeing him read D adjust, then adjust, then tweak, then attack.
Didn't happen yesterday.
If Manning were playing in a system geared for him we would have been killed.

McCowan puts the loss on his own shoulders. Good on him for stepping up but it obviously wasn't all his. I think we can see why he's been on so many different teams. He makes bad decisions and reads at the worst of times.
That said he did do well, when he worked thru the reads and his progressions, against the best D in football.

We need to hire a Clock Management Coach/Specialist or if we have one Fire Him. Pettine is learning as he goes.... his words.... GET A TEACHER/TUDOR!
Flip needs to learn WHEN it's OK to just bang it up the middle and WHEN to get cute w/ the play calling. HE lost the OT Battle.

Gary Barnidge is something special. He's a very patient, smart route runner.
Hard to hid a 6' 5" guy in the open field and he just gets open.
Turbin looks like he may be a find.
Early to tell but we needed a short yardage bruiser to compliment Duke and Crowell. THEN we need to use him in those situations. (Hint Hint to Flip)
Duke Johnson needs to be used as he was used in Miami. (Flip watch the tapes of his 2014 season)

The Jockey Club are really starting to pick it up. These little guys can MOVE! Benjamin looked Great!
Hawkins needs to be used more.

WHY OH WHY Can't we stop the run?
Why Oh Why Can't we pressure a QB?

1st, there is no 2nd guessing going on. If you were in following the gameday chat thread you would have seen this criticism of going for 2 in live time as it was happening.

I understand your argument. But you are assuming that we will keep Denver from scoring an offensive TD all game. And you are assuming that we won't even be able to score another FG. If the offense isn't good enough to at least score another FG then what makes you think it is good enough to covert the 2 pt attempt.

If we kick the extra point and go up 5 then a fg gives us an 8 pt lead. If Denver scores a quick TD like they did then they might just kick the extra point. But regardless they would be forced to make the 2 pt conversion.

Your way of thinking is the epitome of playing not to lose. That is a classic loser's mentality. Play for the win, don't play for a tie.

Here's mine:

Defense still can't rush the passer, stop the run or prevent being passed on all day. Think we're getting worse as games pass.

Desir had a bad game. Most excitement I had for him put back on hold because Thomas destroyed him.

Manning threw up floating ducks all game, and still connected.

We're just a very bad team and our coach has no clue about time management and this is yet another, of many, examples.

Just curious. In overtime, Mingo intercepted the ball and returned it to the 36 yardline, why did we get the ball on the 39? If it's on the 36, just run up the middle 3 times, get 6 yards and kick a 47 yd FG. Game over.

I don't understand why we got the ball on the 39 when he almost returned it to the 35...?


Anyone crying about the 2 point conversion, it's irrelevant, move on.

i saw that. thought real bad spot. but wouldnt have mattered because mccown drove us backward 18 yards lol

Well, I wasn't on the game day chat because I was at the game

Second, you can't make infinite assumptions about what is going to happen after you score.

All you can do is look at the first degree of opponent scoring. We go up by 4 or 5, and they only score 1 FG, we win. They score 2 FGs, we are losing.
We go up by 6 and 2 FGs only means we are tied.
In either scenario, a Denver TD means we are losing.

Trying to assume what happens after that is complete nonsense. Denver could have scored 2 more TDs or we score 2 FGs plus another TD, etc, etc, etc. You can't make predictions beyond 1 degree of planning.

A real loser's mentality is assuming that Denver is going to score a TD and take the lead.

I mean honestly, there are pros and cons of each way. We have the advantage of knowing how this played out.

I thought we should have capitalized on AT LEAST one of those. Hard to watch. Hats off to the some who played better on D yesterday.

McCown has become a liability we can't overcome if he will not avoid taking this many sacks. Some much less predictable play calling would help. The run run pass was alive and well. Just not very effective repeatedly as limited play mix.

Boned it on the two-point. Stop over thinking so much. This loss hurts because it should have been our day again. Ready for a little furious from us. That "few things to fix going forward" hasn't happened.

All I know is that as soon as I saw Pet put up two fingers, I started yelling at the TV: "No, no, no!"

I get it at 5. That would put you up 7. I get it at 8. That puts you up 10. But 4? Ehhhhh, not so much.

I will say that there are some who believe that 4 is one of those numbers, but I have NEVER agreed w/that.

Throwing off back leg, locking in, holding it too long, picks, sounds like last year.

Also loafing drops and dodging his guys. Our drops are the shortest line to QB. Time to change the mix.

N


Nailed it, my attitude exactly.


Pretty much what I said in a letter to Mike Pettine and the Cleveland Browns after the San Diego loss. As a 25 year season ticket holder, I will not continue to represent a team that cannot/will not represent me well on the field each and every Sunday.

Removed my Browns wear, license plate, flag, phone skin and any and all decals.....for now.

Man, you can tell Dansby is hurting. That guy has some major guts.

Glad they listened to me and made Mingo a nickel linebacker. And glad I was right .

Orchard actually looked pretty good in the run game. He seals the edges and plays with good feet better in the run game than any other OLB we have (which, admittedly, isn't saying much.)

Duke and Cro are both running better the past couple games, and Turbin showed he has ability between the tackles. Cut Draughn. I'm sure he's a nice guy that tries hard, but he's useless on offense and he's not one of our 5 best special teams contributors, so why is he here?

Heck of a play by Cooper tracking down Hillman from behind. That's the kind of play that got me excited about him at Washington State.

I really like the effort Gilbert is putting into special teams. I wish he had put that into playing defense. A couple of those ducks Manning tossed should have been picked by a guy with Gilbert's physical skills, but he isn't doing the right things to make the coaches trust him on the field.

Tramon had a hack of a game. Real bummer that pass play to Sanders did what it did. I agree, that was a really bad angle by Poyer. It's tough for a single high safety to hit a guy all the way at the perimeter, but he could have kept that from being a TD.

I'm really disappointed that Hartline has done very little for this offense. I thought he, Benji, and Barnidge were going to be the go-to guys for this offense in the passing game this season and we are missing a lot with him not contributing. I don't know if it's Hartline not getting open or plays not being called for him, but whatever the reason is, the production is not there. Of course, Hawk and Gabriel aren't doing anything, either.

Paul Kruger is too slow. It's been evident all season, but no reason an NFL outside linebacker should be outrun to the sidelines by Peyton Manning. And this is the guy we are relying on to be our primary pass rusher?

Obviously it's been said over and over that McCown made some awful decisions. I'm only a little upset about that, because we knew what we were getting with McCown when we signed him. He is prone to making boneheaded plays. Even with those stupid decisions/throws that he is partially known for, the Browns players did enough to win the game against an (amazingly) undefeated team.

Bummer we didn't recover Norwood's muffed punt on the 10 in overtime. Not sure what Don Jones was doing on that one other than missing a tackle.

This loss is on the coaches, and specifically on Pettine, IMO.

To the two points that you disagree with me on:

The opening FG - As I point out, I wasn't sure thatg we were clearly in FG range. I don't know what distance that kick would have been (I have heard anywhere from 47 to 53). And I don't know Coons range. IF clearly in FG range then yes, we should have kicked it. I don't have a problem with the decision as it stands because I don't know that we definitely were in FG range.

As for the pre-halftime management those timeouts can be tricky. You can call them and they backfire. You can not call them and they backfire. You can do what everyone thinks is wrong and then something funky happens to make that work out for the better. IT comes down to predicting whether you want to save time for your offense vs wanting time to run out on the opposing offense. One play (and it doesn't even need to be a big play) can quickly change which you want to do. I have a hard time criticizing those type of moves.

I don't want to see anything blown up.

McCown made one bad throw yesterday, which was the pick-6. He shouldn't have thrown that ball. His arm was hit as he threw on the 2nd INT. I won't blame him for the fumble, as that man was unblocked, and McCown never felt him coming. He hit McCown before he set his feet.

The defense played better, but the run D still needs a lot of work.

Blaming the 2 point try is foolish. That assumes the rest of the game played out as it did with the 2 point miss. We might have won if that 2pt was made, we might not have.

The broncos stepped up when they had to, the Browns did not.

This is probably the best losing team we've had.

Totally! Just pure stupidity on Pet.

Plus it's not like we're some kind of high scoring, greatest show on turf, type offense. I mean what's our redzone offense percentage? I swear Pet makes Pat look like a freaking coaching genius.

For the FG, the ball was on the 32, making it a 49 yard field goal... or one yard longer than the extra point Coons kicked week 1. Maybe there was a bad wind or something. If that's the case I can excuse it, but it didn't seem like there was much wind.

Obviously the decision to not kick the FG on the first drive and the decision to go for 2 cost us some points (or we assume they did)

But I thought the most boneheaded thing we did was run a pitch play to the short side of the field on 1 and 10 after Mingo's INT ... I mean could you get ANY dumber than that play call? I'd rather just QB sneak it 3 straight times and get 3 yards if you want to settle for a FG ... losing 3-5 yards on that play doomed us

I completely agree with this and I would have gone for 2 at that time as well.

yep.

But going up 6 is now more valuable than it has been in the past. Kickers are missing extra points now. It is not the gimme it once was, though they will still make it most of the time.

Am i under 25? I wish. ...35

The percentage of EXPs made league wide is around 94% this year and 15 teams (including Denver) have yet to miss on an EXP attempt. So, the odds of that happening are slim and the odds were even greater for us to make the 2 point conversion. Bad move on Pett's part.

jc

Both QB sucked for the most part, McCown a little less.

Here's the game for you:

Broncos RBs: 33 runs for 152yds
Browns RBs: 30 runs for 97yds

Yes, Pettine made mistakes again and he probably leads the league in TOs kept in his pocket, he's amateurish with that, playing not to lose, but I applaud Pettine (or McCown? the vets?) for having them fighting, but this team has no future. It's a bunch of underachieving merchenaries on their last retirement contract and a dozen or so mostly talentless high picks, the best of them are situational players. There are no difference makers. When your playmakers are Benjamin, Barnidge and McCown, you're going nowhere.

Danny Shelton played 25 of 82 snaps, he's a rotational dime a dozen, one dimensional fat man. Farmer wasted a high 1st to draft another I.Kitchen, nice job.
Opposing teams outsmart themselves by passing, you just can run right over the Browns. Broncos almost lost the game because of this. Manning passed three times ending in the Mingo-INT. On the next, game winning, drive they ran it 5 straight times to get from midfield to the 20 = ballgame.

I challenge to answer me this: what is the strength/identity of this Browns team? They can't stop the run, they can't rush the passer, they can't run, they suck in the RZ and their passing game consists of a journemen QB-TE vintage combo with an aligator arming no1 WR. I guess pass blocking is the strength? Kicking game? Yay. This roster is shot, the 2015 Browns have next to zero talent.

Sure, give them the rest of the season, if you're more concerned with PR, but I wouldn't mind firing Farmer and O'Neil right now to send a message. Blow this thing up, it's really inevitable

Farmer apparently also drafted the worst FB currently playing in the NFL, can't block, run or catch. Great fit. He was in on 29 plays, 4 more than Danny Shelton, similar impact:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/10/19/worst-players-at-every-position-for-week-6-2/

Fullback: Malcolm Johnson, Browns (-3.0)

Johnson is back! It’s been a couple of weeks since he’s been a part of this team, but he returns as the only fullback this week to grade below -0.5. The majority of his grade comes from poor run blocking (-2.9 grade), as he was frequently beaten inside on his lead blocks, and gave up tackles for no gain or less.