DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Continuity---Take Two

DC had a line in another forum that got me to thinking. Thought it was worthy of discussion. We'll see. LOL



Good question. I'm sure we all have our opinions on this. I will give my opinion and I don't expect anyone to agree. It's simply MY opinion.

--I believe in continuity, but I do not believe in continuity for continuities sake.

--I have defended numerous front offices and coaches over the years. The only one I never liked was H and H. Mainly because I knew that The Big Show was stealing money. I was one of the first to criticize Butch, but one of the last to defend him. Hated the Mangini hire, but he won me over and was upset that he was fired. I defended Arians when almost everyone was blaming him--in part--for Timid's failures. I defended Mo. LOL. I defended Daboll. I loved RAC at first, but Camp Cupcake kinda bothered me. I didn't rampage against him, but I was not very zealous in defending him once the mob got going.

--I was all for giving Banner time. I really do think he was the smartest guy in the room. People say that as an insult, but I am not intimidated by smart people. I admire them. He had one year. Made some great moves. His only draft was not successful, but one has to remember that it was the worst draft class of the last 20 to 30 years. He made two trades in that draft to get higher draft picks in the next draft, which was one of the best of all time. He brought in guys like Kruger, Hoyer, D. Bryant, A. Bryant, and Lewis. He got a first round pick for the bust that is TRich. He clearly stated it would take some time and he wasn't into quick fixes. 99% of the board were unwilling to give him 2 years, never mind real time. Yet, now we wanna give guys who have been far more incompetent all the time they need????

--Regarding the current regime: It seems to me that the biggest argument for retaining them is to maintain "continuity" and blowing things up has never worked before. I get that, but if that is THEE best argument people can make for keeping them, then there is really something wrong w/the picture.

--I look at the drafts. 4 first round picks in one excellent draft class and one below average class. All four are disappointing at best and pretty darn shabby if looked at realistically.

--We give Bowe and McCown big money in free agency, but don't want to pay Gipson, Skrine, Sheard, etc.

--We hire a defensive coach, but our defense has actually regressed.

--We have the highest paid defense in the league, yet we rank at--or near--the bottom of the league statistically.

--Each week, there is a new reason why we lose. I think good teams find a way to win and bad teams always have an excuse. If only we hadn't went for two. If only the defense would have played better. If only we hadn't thrown a pick six. If only, if only, if only......

--I find it embarrassing that our GM had to sit out for breaking league rules. I am furious that his interference drove out a great offensive mind. It's upsetting that the marketing face of our franchise makes the news for all the wrong reasons. I don't like that they raised season ticket prices while not improving the product on the field. I am upset that we let some good players get away and their replacements are worse. I am confused why our HC, who has a defensive background, would rather coach offense than defense, despite the defense being ranked at the bottom of the league.

Here is the bottom line for me. Yes, I am worried that blowing things up again will not work and may put us farter behind. However, I am even more afraid that keeping this regime for no other reason than to maintain continuity will backfire in our face because they seem absolutely clueless in my eyes. Let's say they continue to stumble around, making blunder after blunder for the next 3 years. Where the hell does that leave us?

I'm sorry, but their moves thus far make me think that they don't get it. I don't see them improving much. I don't like their plan. I don't like their drafts or FA moves. I don't like the attitude of the team. I don't see a tough-minded team on the field each week.

Do you?

Again, this is only my opinion and am not trying to change anyone's mind. So please, don't resort to name calling. Thanks in advance.

I like our coach, but I'm not sure on the GM.

You bring up very good points but I think we have to take into account that a rookie head coach and GM were hired. Whether we agreed with that decision or not, it was the one that was made and for that reason, if nothing else I think the Browns should stick it out. They need to learn and if anyone thought that wasn't going to be the case they're naive at best. I think these guys ARE learning (case in point, after drafting two knuckleheads in '14, we got good citizens in '15). The book is still out on whether those good citizens are the players we need them to be given their draft status but there's progress.

On the coaching side, while you're right that Pettine is working with the offense, that's the side of the ball that's improved, so last year when he was working with the defense, it was top 10. This year, working with the offense they're at least respectably ranked. Maybe he's a good coach and just has to get his staff and organization gelled. I'm hoping he gets that chance.

I might be talked into supporting bringinig in a new, experienced GM, if I thought that individual would give Pettine time but since that never happens I think these guys still need another 2 years at the least.

I don't like the idea of changing every year or two, but it makes no sense to keep going once you think you are headed in the wrong direction.
I think Farmer has got to go. Four first round picks in two years and NOT ONE is helping us. That is just huge. There is no defending that.
Pettine I kind of like and can see him getting better. He is tough and projects a no-nonsense attitude. But ... we brought him in because he was a defensive minded guy, and our defense, especially up front, is pitiful. His game decisions are brutal (going for two on Sunday???)
I would be okay giving Pettine another year. Not Farmer.

I don't like your Manziel takes, but I think this was a very good post. I liked how you debated me w/logic instead of insults.

Well done.

So far, so good...guys. Thanks.

I have concerns with both the coach and GM.

For the coach, Why can't his defense no matter the DE/OLB playing can set an edge? Clock management in games, poor decisions like when to kick field goals or go for first downs (Jax game last year) and when to go for 2 (yesterday).

For the GM, Why does this defense not have a pass rusher? Free Agent pick ups, and top draft picks.

But, I do not know if we can do better at this time. No big time name coach or GM will want to come here when Josh McCown is your QB. I like the way he has played so far this year the problem is his age. If the Browns have a promising QB with our cap room and draft picks this would be an interesting job. As it sits now this job is a long shot at best.

With that said Pettine and Farmer are our best shots at turning this around Why?

Despite the flaws and the loss of our best play maker Josh Gordon the team seems to play hard for Pettine. He does not just hand over starting jobs to Farmer's top draft picks/ free agents. He makes them earn it. Could be why the team plays hard. They are competitive in all games.

Until this team stops playing hard for Pettine I want to give them more time to turn the ship around.

I think fundamentally we are flawed from a coaching and a player development standpoint, we don't draft well, we don't fill in gaps with FA well. We don't make those in game adjustments that mean winning or losing. I think the staff is incompetent from top to bottom. It starts with haslam, he should have kept a guy like Banner to run the team, have him hire the GM, coaches etc. We ended up in desperation mode and basically took whoever would accept the job. Pettine doesn't have the pedigree or the success at this level to warrant a HC position. Same with Farmer as a GM..So if you're going to go out on a limb on rookie coaches and Gm's, you better have a proven football guy as president. When you don't, this is what you get. If they decide to bring in one of those, I'd be more inclined to keep the coaches than I would Farmer, Farmer is a bad evaluator of talent, he cannot be allowed to have any more drafts. Pettine and the staff can learn I believe if guided by someone with the knowledge. Right now its blind leading the blind. Regardless, something needs to happen in the offseason. If I was to blow anything up it would be the defense, get rid of all the high dollar players and fire Oneil. Bring in a legit DC and have him run his defense. Pettine is as much a defense guy as Shurmer was offense. Get a qualified guy in and rebuild the defense.

I do think we were just 1 or 2 plays from winning games...however that is what I say to myself every week for many years. They re-posted a Cribbs quote today on twitter from a while ago.."every week we almost always find a way to almost win"...man if that is not the case.

We currently rank 30th in total Defense and 11th in total Offense. Since Johnny has 2 years left on his contract, no way we keep him so he is gone after next year and probably won't play this year. that means we have to draft another QB and go through a few years of 'learning' again -unless they get a FA QB and who would that be? If we keep continuity with this group [which I think we should], we are still 5 years out from being a .500 team. I posted on a different thread that of the latest true expansion teams, it took each team's coach 8 years to be a .500 team.

I keep cringing when I hear 'the FO and coaching staff are learning' ...each learning with players keeps costing us talent and bad player change-outs. When does a coaching staff begin to 'gel and win'?

So it looks like when Pet has his hands in O or D, that group does well. That bodes well for him as a coach. Flip - seems to be Ok and he seems to work with what he has...we almost have a top 10 O after 5 weeks so he must be doing something right...shoot, we got a career year from Josh so he has the ability.

O'Neil - not sure why the D is so bad with last years moves as he has a history of good D's with the Jets. It's like the O and D swapped from last year.

Next year will solidify the next 3-4 years wins/losses, which means this our last draft and FA period. I vote we keep them all as long as we lost the 'they are learning' mantra..imho

Didn't Banner higher Pettine?

My problem with Banner was his background. He was the business manager in Philly. Player decisions, draft, Free Agents, as well as coaching was all handled my Andy Reid. Banner's job was to handle the business end, and I thought he was brought to Cleveland for that purpose.

Banner felt that he was the Czar over everything. Something I do not think he was qualified for.

I have not been in favor of many of the coaching decisions. You have to have RBs with vision to run a zone blocking scheme. Too many times over the past two seasons I have seen our backs run to a hole that wasn't there. In zone blocking a back is supposed to look for and see a crease to exploit as the line moves, and I have not seen this happen a great deal.

I do however, think it takes time for a Front Office and coaching staff to find and develop the players for their scheme. I know they felt that Dansby, Kruger, Williams and Whitner were a better fit for their scheme than Jackson, Skrine and Sheard. By what I've seen, it appears to be a wash. I know that this years signings and who they let leave were meant to build compensation picks for next year's draft. So I am willing to give them time to see if this system, one that the Browns have never really tried before, has a chance to succeed.

Yes.. I was upset about out GM being suspended for texting. I do feel he was covering for Haslam, that Haslam had a question, wanted an answer.. and wanted it NOW. I think that in a Billionaire's League, with men who have money and want the info they need now, this happens all the time, but it took Shanahan wanting to head to greener pastures that brought the Brown's situation to light. Perhaps I am naïve, but I can not see the difference between Farmer or Haslam texting the sidelines and Jerry Jones on the sidelines, walking right up to the coach and asking the same questions.

JMHO

J/C

Continuity for continuity sake. Whenever I hear that I think of this thread in days past and the comparison to the Lions regime under Millen. As others have alluded to, this regime simply has to start showing some improvement both on the roster and on the field. If they don't, despite Jimmys assurances on continuity I don't think he's the sort of dude to tolerate the product and the circus around it. It's been embarrassing at times.

The last 4 first rounders are not contributing and given the ones that preceded it, well, it's like we haven't had a first round pick of any quality for about 6 yrs or something.

As far as predictions, nothing will happen on the coaching side until seasons end at least. If the trigger is pulled on Pett, who on the staff would replace him? I'm wary on this move, I think Pett is on a warm seat and he needs to show something. He's still green and making mistakes he just has to learn from them and it starts with stepping in on the D. I think back to the staff Belichick assembled in Cleveland and how the pin was pulled and how things fell apart and what he became after cutting his teeth. We have to be sure before making that call. I'd like to see us keep Pet. I'm concerned about the D co ordinator. I'm liking Flip even though he is making mistakes he has done some good things. I'm certainly more confident in him and the QB coach than I was before the season started. The fact we aren't discussing them can only say good things.

Also, watch Austin Davies man, this dude is the wild card in any future QB discussion. Could be the future placeholder for a new QB drafted next year if Manziel gets the bullet. Ugh....

One thing to bear in mind in this discussion is that coaching jobs in Cleveland are seen as undesirable around the league. 3 years ago the management of Haslam, Banner, and Lombardi went all in on Chip Kelly, only to be rebuffed, leaving them scrambling to came up with a plan B while the other desirable candidates were hired elsewhere. They hired Chud, and, wrong or right, fired him after 1 year. In the second straight year of HC shopping, they had a list; Dan Quinn, Josh McDaniels, Gus Malzahn, Nick Saban, Bill O'Brien, etc...the only one who showed any interest in the job was McDaniels, and that after first saying he wasn't interested. That's when Haslam tired of Banner and Lombardi, fired them and hired Pettine and promoted Farmer.

So talking about whether we should move on from Pettine begs the question, who would take the job? The reason, or at least part of the reason, we have such an inexperienced coaching staff is that nobody with experience who has other options wants to coach in Cleveland.

As for the GM, I have defended Farmer's first draft due to his inexperience and the very short time he had as GM to prepare for that draft. I have counseled patience to allow him to learn and improve. That said, the lack of any impact players drafted with 4 first round picks in 2 drafts has me feeling less supportive. I'm still not ready to give up on him, but my patience is wearing thin.

I am warming nicely to the coaching staff. Yeah, a few mistakes were made this sunday and before, but tell me what coaching staff doesn't make a few in-game mistakes. This offense is really coming together. As an example, look at what they did to the best D in the league. I was impressed, I really thought this was going to be a blow out.

Not as sold on Farmer. I have given it time for some of the talent he brought in to mature and improve, but honestly, I'm not seeing anything from our top picks like Gilbert, Manziel, Erving and Shelton. Although, I still think Shelton will be pretty good. He's young, he's a rook and I suspect he's the one that will really shine.

We better hope that Erving shines next season because odds are, Mack will leave.

It's almost like he's trying to "out-smart" the league and it's not working.

Anyway, when it comes to continuity, I do like this coaching staff and I'm very anxious to see what they could do with a few more playmakers. I see what they do with 2nd class talent (with few exceptions) and wonder, what if?

I know folks get tired of me referring to the Steelers and Chuck Noll and I'm sorry for that, but it's true, back then (and I lived outside Pittsburgh at that time) the feelings among fans was that Noll had to go.

But that wasn't Rooneys way. (Art that is) They got Noll the talent and the next thing you know, 4 superbowl wins in the 70's.

It paid off big for him and the Steelers.

There was another discussion on this subject in another thread where we discussed what made a team successful, Players or Coaching?

I'm convinced that A great coach can get quality performance from mediocre talent, but he won't win a SB with that level of talent. I'm convinced a bad coach can take a team with great talent and never find a way to get the best out of them.

So, If I were Jimmy Haslam, I'm at the point where I'd dump Farmer, get someone in here that you feel can do a better job of getting the BEST talent out our draft position(s) allow for, and keep the coaching staff intact.

I think then we'll see what we want, a winner.

Just My Opinion.

j/c:

I think the discussion has been very good, w/a lot of valid points made on both sides of the issue.

I'm not sure what the answer/answers is/are right now. I do think it's worth discussing.

My mind is not made up at all, but as of this exact moment, I am leaning in this direction:

Keep Pet and give him time to develop that elusive thing we call continuity.

Replace Farmer. Just too many bad moves w/not nearly enough good ones. I somewhat want to keep him, but I am really worried about him continuing to blow picks and bringing in more guys like Bowe and letting guys like Skrine go. Heck, did anyone watch Billy Winn the other night?

I don't think replacing the GM affects the team's continuity issue like replacing the coaching staff.

Speaking of the staff, I have been pleasantly surprised by Flip. O'Neil is not doing a very god job, however.

Once again, I really do appreciate the logical and rational points that you guys are making. No name calling or belittling. Just solid points to back-up your point of view. I think it's so much more enjoyable to read the type of posts that all of you have submitted thus far.

Win and "excuses" aren't necessary, just reasons.

We can turn this around but if we learn from other teams in this division, it takes continuity. Marvin Lewis would have been long gone in Cleveland (and by most of our standards) and look where his team sits right now.

Pettine is still within the learning curve as a head coach. He will make mistakes but must learn from them as they all need to. I believe they will.

With that said, Farmer needs to go. He has proven his inability to evaluate talent and bring in players that fit what the Browns need (at least players who can/will play for 9 mill). Too many misses leaving this team with too many needs once again.

What really drives it home is the superior talent we are witnessing from those we passed on to take our bench warmers.

Continuity in the presence of incompetence is no virtue. Seeing the results of Farmer's drafts, hearing his comments on the relative importance of WRs on the outcome of a game, and his stated belief that there is a secret formula to turn athletic, spread QBs into Aaron Rodgers, along with his demonstrated disdain for using early picks on skill positions - I don't want Ray Farmer conducting our next draft. Its too important.

Pettine is harder. I thought he did a pretty good job last year, getting us to 7-9. I thought the future looked bright, despite the ever present shadow of our not having a QB. I have been disappointed this year at the failure to maintain that upward trend. The offense has shown some recent improvement, but its not as good as last years'. The defense has regressed badly, and I think that has to be hung on Pettine. His D-Coord appears to be over his head, and Mike needs to step in and get that situation on track. Next year, if he's still here, Pettine needs to find an experienced defensive coordinator.

Haslam, IMO, needs to hire a Vice President of Football Operations, who will oversee the GM and the Head Coach. Let that person, whoever it is, decide who stays and who goes. Haslam is not qualified to fill that function and neither is Alex Scheiner. We need a football guy. It could be the newly-retired Peyton Manning - although I think he'll end up in the broadcast booth come next year; it could be a Bernie Kosar; or Jimmy can hire someone like Bill Parcells as a consultant to find his VP of Football Ops. This hire will be the key to the Browns future, and to ensuring the right kind of continuity going forward.

Here are a few things going through my head right now:

--Pettine has regressed between last year and this year. He preaches accountability but refused to take any from the 2pt fiasco. Every answer is "I need to watch the tape" or "we discussed it". His timeout management is awful. I think he needs to realize he doesn't have to discuss anything. He's the head man in charge. Just make the call. I loved when he said last year that he did a lot of things wrong and was going to take stock of those and learn from his mistakes. A really, honest candid self assessment. But, he has regressed.

--I think Farmer takes a lot of flack for Pettine's shortcomings. I think Farmer has gotten a lot of the players that Pettine has wanted. Shelton has not had the impact we were hoping for but does anyone have any confidence in O'Neil? Is Pettine and his staff getting the most out of the players? On offense it appears so, but not on D. Sticking with the theme of point 1, I think there are coaching issues that make Farmer look even worse.

--That doesn't mean Farmer is without blame. How can so many fans predict what was going to happen with Bowe and a professional GM couldn't see it coming a mile away? He overcompensated between the 2014 and 2015 drafts. And his treatment of our own FAs is completely discouraging. I think he's outsmarted himself too many times.

--I think what is hurting these guys the most is there is not one single voice of football experience in the organization. There is no one to turn to for either Pettine or Farmer. Someone to tell Pettine " you don't discuss every major call in the game, you make it. You are the head man, people are looking to you to make the tough calls" and someone to tell Farmer "it is your responsibility to bring in the best players, not please others".

--What I would like to see: bring in a football guy that reports to Haslam and that both Pettine and Farmer report to. These guys need someone, anyone that can advise and guide them. We have to stay the course and live with their mistakes in the hopes that they learn from them over time. I just don't think firing them accomplishes anything unless you are bringing in established guys. All it does is start the clock over again on someone else learning on the job. Stay the course as painful as that might be. I beat the continuity drum all summer. I am not backing off of that because I think it's best for the organization. I just think a few tweaks need to be made.

--And even if you brought in established guys, without a QB the losses will always be greater than the wins. So how much have you really gained? In addition to learning on the job, you also have no QB. That's not a recipe for wins. This is why I hate the plan of going with McCown. That is, in essence, no plan at all. The goal should be working toward the future and we aren't doing that.

--I would also consider demoting but retaining O'Neil if you can bring in an experienced DC that he can learn from. Sit him down and say "kid, it was too much too soon. Let's take a step back. You are not fired but I want to bring in an experienced guy and I want you to learn from him".

Good post Vers...

I just want to touch on your first comment.

While I agree with the basic premise, I always have to wonder.

How do you determine if it's a learning curve or just bad staff, when dealing with rookie staffs like we often do?

To my untrained eyes, I see improvement in areas. And rollbacks in others, but overall I see good things with what Pettine has done. I also prefer to separate the coaching staff from the FO staff, and I'm not sold on Farmer, but again, I don't know if he's just stumbling as a slow learner, or just isn't qualified.

Good question. I don't think there are any clear-cut answers or formulas, if you will. That's why it is an interesting conversation.

Like I said earlier, I don't know the answer[s.] My opinion is to give Pet more time, but frankly, I am extremely worried that we can't afford for Farmer to continue to make so many mistakes. We are letting some of our younger talent leave and replacing them w/older guys.

With that said, I don't know if my intuition is correct or not and I have enjoyed reading all the different takes on this subject. I think everyone has made some valid points that are supported by logic and reason. Heck, even your question provokes more thought and analysis of the situation.

--And even if you brought in established guys, without a QB the losses will always be greater than the wins.

This statement makes sense but it appears to be in direct conflict with Farmer's philosophy on the importance of the QB position. Therein lies much of the issue.

I think Farmer says a lot of things that are a hedge against what he actually believes. He's made that comment about the WRs. He also tried to trade up for both Beckham and Cooks. If he really devalued the WR position he wouldn't have done that. My own personal speculation is he wanted Beckham but also wanted to make his coach happy. He thought he could do both and it didn't work out. He got burned trying to make his coach happy.

IMO, the comments on QB are a hedge against actually being able to find one since they don't grow on trees.

I agree, there are somethings that Farmer has done that I think go down as smart/good moves/picks.. Bitonio, grabbing Crowell, stuff like that.

I was unsure of the Tramon Williams pick up this year but it's turned out good. I get why he picked up Bowe. They were both in KC and he probably knew Bowe as a quality guy with skills. What I'm guessing he didn't know was that Bowe was going to be injured.

Skrine, well, I don't know what the deal was with him. Did we make a good offer? Did we just get outbid? Did we make any attempt to keep him? did he tell us not to bother? Don't know.. I can't help thinking that behind closed doors, Pettine probably said, find a way to keep him after all the praise he heaped upon him last year!

The real problem with Farmer is the Blown picks at the top of the draft. Or at least it feels that way at this very moment. you just can't keep blowing your first round picks and expect to build a solid team.

As for O'neil,it kinda looks like he's not ready to stand on his own yet. That and some injuries have done a job on the D I think. Last year, Pettine got ridden a little for saying he was going to spend more of his time with the D. That worked, I thought the D was poised for a great year this year.

Then Pet said he'd spend more time with the O this year and look at what happened. I'm not 100% sure it's all Flip although I think a lot of it is. But instead, it might be that Pet is JUST that good a coach.

WE'll see.. The D started to look better last week and if we can get our injured guys back, maybe we see the REAL D.

Hey, one can hope can't one?

EDIT: I didn't see what Happened with Winn, did he play well?

It's kind of a gamble when you're on the outside looking in. From where I stand we have a reasonable facsimile of an NFL coach in Pettine. I can remember back when the Pittsburgh homers were calling for Chuck Noll's head on a stick before he suddenly became the Smartest Man on Earth. And then later he was what held them back. Pettine gets a pass for at least another year in my book. Depending on if he loses the team in December.

Farmer? He's kind of expendable in my book. When your GM lands himself a suspension during the season that is just all sorts of bad juju. I don't know how many cigars and how much rum it takes to overcome that one. Maybe a whole bucket of chicken?

Farmer = Gone
Pettine = Made to stand on the plastic drop cloth in Jimmy's office and ponder his mortality for a wee bit. So to speak.

No doubt. I think when talking in the context of continuity, it only really matters how that impacts the players. I don't think they give a flip on who is sitting in what front office chair. They probably see Farmer in the halls of the building and walking around at practice, but other than that, Farmer doesn't mean much to them. The coaching staff is where continuity matter to them.

Pet stays, Farmer departs if changes are made. Make Scheiner the GM over all business operations . Hire a director of pro- personnel who picks players hand in hand with Pet. Give Pet more say. Then it is his bed to make or mess.

What GM would we be able to hire as a replacement knowing he doesn't get to pick his coach?

You're probably finding ANOTHER rookie GM in that case..

Unless you specifically look for a GM who has the same views as Pettine..

Honestly, from the outside looking in like we Fans always are, I don't know if we can legitimately tell aside from whether or not they are very visibly making the same blunders over and over and over again.

As long as they are growing and learning from their mistakes, it's just a learning curve. However, if that learning curve is involving Football 101 type items, then perhaps you just need to move on and let them learn back down a level before they get another shot.

Overall, while I pin this loss squarely on coaching, I like Pettine and this crew. I think that they are having their hiccups & learning curve issues, but I don't think they are in over their heads. I think they will absolutely make mistakes, but I see them adjusting and learning from them, not repeating them -- and I think that is going to have Pettine becoming a VERY good head coach for us over the next few seasons.

Ahh, the $64,000 question. Who would you get to replace Farmer that wouldn't want to bring in his own HC and what HC wouldn't want to bring in his own staff. So, to fire Farmer, you could very well be looking at a reboot.

Is there someone from Pittsburgh that understands their thinking that can transfer it here? How about the Seahawks or Green Bay or Arizona or Atlanta. Not sure I want anyone from a team that isn't winning and I don't want anyone from New England because as we all know, Belichick makes the decisions for the GM there.

Is there anyone inhouse that could do it?

I doubt you get someone from the College ranks for a GM job that's worth a plug nickle.

Man, that would really be a problem.

Speaking of Belichick, let us not forget that he was fired after 5 years as Cleveland's head coach because he wasn't getting it done.

I really do think there was more to it than that. The team moving had to have some effect on his being released and for all we know, he asked to be released. It might be he'd had enough of Modell..

But yeah, it's an example of a HC getting fired that goes on to become one of the best EVER.

We've had two such head coaches.. Paul Brown and Belichick.

And I guess you could throw Marty in there even if he didn't get to a SB. He sure came close a bunch of times and nobody denies he was a helluva coach.

Boy, Modell really screwed the pooch a number of times didn't he? LOL Not to mention he screwed the fans of the Browns as well.

Could we lure Ozzie?

Why would he wanna come here?

Oh hell, not at all sure he would. But when he was inducted in the HOF, he said he'll always bleed Brown and Orange so maybe, just maybe he'd like the idea.

I do have knowledge that many of you don't about the owner of the Ravens. Stephen Bisciotti. He made his money in my industry and is respected for what he built but hated for how he built it. Tough guy to work for, Goes through staff like a hot knife through butter.

Not a pleasant man and that I got from some of his most successful management people. Just my luck, I know a lot of them.

So it could be that that is why he'd make a move.

Who knows.....

The team is competitive. We are in pretty much every game. At some point the breaks will start going our way. Stay the course.

That's where I'm pretty much at right now. But who knows for how long.

I think O'Neil has got to go. On the Cleveland Browns' own radio show, Cleveland Browns Daily, (former NFL 3-4 linebacker) Matt Wilhelm has repeatedly stated for weeks that he sees fundamental flaws in the Browns' scheme against the run. Only thing continuity will do for us on defense is provide a reliable blueprint on how to run all over us. I go back to that play against Tennessee where the titans double-teamed the outside linebacker on an outside run, and our scheme has literally no answer for that. I'd run that play 30 times a game against our defense.

O'Neil is amateur hour out there. Unfortunately, people with questionable credentials are among the most likely to "stick to their guns" when something isn't working just to prove they know what they are doing. Predictably, we are last in the league in rush defense AGAIN. Same as last year. Not only are we last, but we give up 8.8 yards per game more than the 31st-ranked team, which represents the largest gap between two rankings... so we're not just last, but last by a lot. What makes that even WORSE is that in our only 6 games, we have played two of the bottom 4 (San Diego and Denver) and 3 of the bottom 6 (+Oakland) rush offenses in the NFL, and STILL we are last. Even with the big numbers those teams put up on us, they are still at the bottom of the league. My guess is that continuity of defensive scheme will bring us a bottom-3 rush defense again next season.

This is about how I feel. Except I'm SURE I don't like Farmer.

I would give Pettine more time to take lumps and hopefully learn and improve.

I'd replace O'Neil pronto.

Before seeing Farmer released, it might be a good idea for the scouting staff to be reviewed. Not excusing Farmer, because he has to make the picks.... but a guy's (ANY guy) decisions can only be as good as the data and intel he has.

Just another angle to consider.

Farmer hired most of the scouts... just sayin'.

Which is really the debate... do you change your way out of making those mistakes or do you grow your way out of it? I'm inclined to believe you grow your way out of it.

I have a hard time seeing O'Neil getting the axe. He is Pettine's buddy and has been with him in three different places (New York, Buffalo, and Cleveland. He also played for Pettine's father). I think our only hope is that Pettine takes over the defensive playcalling and gameplanning, which would allow O'Neil to save face. Another option would be to bring in a consultant type of guy so it doesn't look like O'Neil got demoted.

In the end I would hope that Pettine is willing to put the team over his nepotism. There are a couple of good defensive coordinators out there right now that would be great, but they aren't really fits with Pettine.