DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Continuity---Take Two

Yeah, that is a valuable thought.

I'm all for keeping Pett and his staff. Game management blunders aside, he has us looking like a bonafide NFL team, unlike what we've seen the past few years. The plays and drives for the most part look like they're executed by professionals...crisp routes, quick execution, most of the time the players look like they know what they're doing, IMO, with an aged career backup qb. Even when we were winning last year, our big plays looked like they were drawn up in a sandlot (first Cincy game the exception). The "fair catch" comments on most of Hoyer's long passes were warranted. On the other side of the LOS, I think the problems are more with talent level than scheme. Most of the big plays given up look like they were due to player choices/blunders and poor techniqe vs. scheme.

As far as Farmer goes, I don't think we can afford to take a chance on another blown draft. He sure hasn't shown a knack for talent evaluation or that he's going to get better.

So basically, I agree with most of the other posts in this thread.

Farmer and the scouting staff probably need to be looked at, if Farmer is ignoring his staff and picking rogue, then he needs to go, if he's using their suggestions, then maybe everything needs blown up in there...We could have used Kiper's mock draft and done 100x better than what these guys get paid millions to do

This is a reasonable thought, but wouldn't it primarily be Farmer's job to perform that review? Could we reasonably expect that he's going to come back with, "Well, they got it right and I didn't listen to them."

Because if Farmer doesn't do it, then we are at Scheiner and/or Haslam doing it and are they really going to know what to look for?

jf, love most of your posts, but you're premise is completely wrong.

We are always competitive 6, 7, 8 games into every season with every regime. Every year (sans Mangini's first year). The wheels always fall the second half of the season.

And I continue to be surprised by the "I'm ok with Farmer going, Pettine staying" mantra that continues to live on here. These guys are equally at fault in this whole debacle. Pettine does not have this team on some magical uphill swing. His handpicked DC is the worst in the league and he won't address it. His QB of the future is a 36 year old journeyman. His in game decision making is awful. His team can't close games.

Not one of those has to do with Farmer. Not one single one.

This is not a pro-Farmer post as his mistakes are the same mile long. But this Pettine getting a pass stuff needs to stop.

We need an experienced voice in this organization that both of these men report to. Without that, I fear we will not make any progress at all.

To me Vers, the question is, "What could Pettine be accomplishing had the drafting been better?"

It's obvious to me that since Pettine isn't hands on with the D this year, the D is stumbling greatly. To me that's an indictment of O'Neil. As Cleve alluded to, I think O'Neil is out of his league. Yet at the same time, Pettine can't be holding his hand with a rookie at the OC position.

Farmer has failed miserably at improving this team via the draft and in the FA market. Lots of moves on D, but the same weaknesses and worse production this year.

I believe if we had a GM that could have some success with his top draft picks, it would be much easier to gauge Pettine's progress. But when your GM keeps striking out, what do we have to gauge Pettine on?

Sure he's not nearly a finished product as an NFL HC, and he makes some basic mistakes at times. Yet until we have the talent in the FO to give him the talent needed to win, I'm for giving him some time to grow,

Now I know I'll get Farmer apologists saying he has found talent, and he has. But it's lunch pail talent and not playmaker, difference makers that are often found at the top of the draft. He misses on playmakers and hits on journeymen, sometimes.

I would love to find replacements for O'Neil and Farmer. I don't trust Farmer in the draft and I think O'Neil is in WAY over his head.

Unfortunately, that's usually not the way things work. Usually the baby gets thrown out with the bath water.

Is O'Neil not an indictment of Pettine?

Man, Pettine is like the Teflon man on this board.

Given your track record of seeing Chud for what he was long before anyone else, I'll respect that....though I hope you're wrong about Pettine. I think he has these guys playing above their talent level.

Then why does the defense suck so bad?

jf, keep in mind I don't want Pettine fired. If I could go back in time I would have fought for Chud even though he was awful. Plus, Chud lost the team which is really hard to come back from.

I don't want Pettine or Farmer fired. I want to give them help.

We have Poyer starting and Bademosi playing a lot of snaps because Haden and Gipson are injured. Outside LB's that aren't and never will be capable of getting to the qb. Dansby's showing his age, Robertson's injured. We let vet NT's Kitchen and Rubin go and replaced them with an unproven rookie....yet we took the undefeated Bronco's to OT and picked off Manning 3 times.

It could be. I just wonder what choices he had in candidates willing to come to Cleveland?



I can understand how you may see it this way.

But look at where he had been. Look in the improvements in the units he worked with prior to coming to Cleveland.

Then look at this. Pettine worked along side O'Neil last year and our D improved.

This year Pettine is working with Flip and our O is improved.

While that may not be a selling point to you, for me that's reason enough to give him some more time. I don't believe he's a finished product no doubt. But it does seem to me that anything he's hands on with shows improvement. IMO, that's reason enough to see if he improves.

He's not teflon, he's the person most people hold less accountable. Either Farmer is getting him good players and he's not using them (like Gilbert, Manziel, Shelton, and Erving)... or Farmer is not getting him guys that can contribute and turn into real play makers.

At this point, Farmer is taking more heat because his track record is more clear.

I think there is also an aversion to "blow it all up and start over".. so people are clinging to Pettine for some kind of stability.

What about before those guys were injured?



Kruger had 11 sacks last season, this season he has 0.5.



Kitchen, who was unsigned until 10/8/15.



Manning is among the worst QBs in the league this year (and was pretty bad the end of last year). This is like saying, "We picked off Blake Bortles three times."

The defense stinks. All the excuses stink worse.

I think its the opposite, my biggest peeve with this coaching staff is there isn't any player development..Noone is getting better where they should be.

My point was that Pettine's getting the most of the lack of talent we have, not saying they're good. Who knows when Haden was injured, he sure wasn't playing up to par when he was in there. Kruger most definitely looks slower this year. Kitchen's a head scratcher, I always like his motor. No one else has picked off Manning 3 times.

I would talk with Scott Pioli. He is currently listed as assistant GM with the Atlanta Falcons.

He did a really good job in KC. A couple years ago they had what 11 pro bowl players despite a losing record. The only issue with him here was inability to find a premier Qb. I don't know who he may have passed on.

In NE he did quite well too. It seems as if the NE drafts have been less successful since he left. Hard to really eval because it's unclear how much he was in control of the selections. I suspect near the end he had less than a few years earlier.

If I was Haslam, I would give him all the power he wanted and stand back. If he wants to bring in his own HC, fine. If he wants to keep Pettine, fine.

I get the gripes about our defense, but in this game, we gift wrapped a pick 6 and gave them a short field to a FG.. other than that, the defense gave up 13 points in regulation.

As a defense in regulation, you pick a guy off twice, run one back for a TD, give up 13 points (heck say 16 because they did move the ball to kick the FG)... you expect to win.

then you get to OT and pick them off giving your team the ball 6 yards from FG range... you expect to win again..

Really? I don't recall anyone in the organization ever saying anything other than McCown is here to teach and hold the line til Manziel (or someone else) is ready to take over.

They didn't have fall-outs with former disciple D-Coordinators who now sulk, nor did they run Camp Cupcake.

We gave up 4.6 yards per carry to a team that had been averaging 3.3 yards per carry. We got no pressure on a team that had been giving up consistent pressure all season.

Never said we played great, just that the defense did enough to win... Just like in week 4 the offense did enough to expect to win and the defense let them down... it's always something.

Continuity? What is this thing you speak of grasshopper?

If Farmer had not whiffed on four first round picks (I know, that may not be totally fair to Shelton, but to date, none are helping), Pettine could be reasonably expected to have a wining record. You don't have to redraft with 20-20 hindsight. Just make two of those picks plus starters, one an average starter and one a bust. How much better is the team? What if Ozzie Newsome had had four first-round picks in two years?
And now I'm thinking about Phil Taylor, Barkevious Mingo and Trent Richardson. We ALWAYS choke with the first round picks. It is so painful.

j/c:

I am very pleased w/the responses. No name calling. No attacks. Pretty darn good football talk.

I would rather facilitate this discussion rather than champion my own opinions.

Let's keep this in mind: There probably aren't any sure fire answers here. I think just about everyone who has voiced an opinion has some very solid logic behind their opinions. So please, let's not draw lines in the sand. Instead, let's continue to discuss our varying points of view and back-up our opinions w/logic. Again, I really do not think there are right and wrong evaluations to the points that almost all of us have made.

We learn from honest debate. That's pretty freaking exciting. Keep arguing your side of the argument, but let's not get mad at each other and regress into insults and attacks.

You guys have been really great thus far. I am really enjoying reading all of the opposing opinions, even those that disagree w/mine. LOL

Some of you have got me to thinking about the consultant thing, or team president, or a guy that both are GM and HC have to answer to. I wanna discuss that further, but I need to put more thought into it. I have a bad taste in my mouth because of how Holmgren filled that role not too long ago. Do we really wanna give a guy fwho has been out of the league for years all that power again? That scares me, but I am going to think about it and will address it later. I am certainly interested in hearing both sides of that argument from you guys. I like hearing other people's opinions when I am unsure about a topic.

If we hire someone to fill the "John Elway" role or the "Mike Holmgren" role, then everyone needs to be fired. Let that person hire who they want and start from there.

I think you know my feelings on this. You give Farmer and Pet the rest of this year and all of next year. They have both done some good thing and some bad things. They are both young and still learning from their mistakes. I believe just like players they should be given at least three years to learn and develop. Right noow it does not look good BUT its way to early to blow it up and start all over again.

That scares me.

I would rather give Pet time to grow.

I think it is easier to grow as a coach as opposed to a talent evaluator.

I think the guys are playing pretty hard. He just needs to learn some of the nuances of how to manage a game. If the team quits him, I will change my current opinion.

I think this is an ongoing situation.

I get that, bro.........What worries me is that we cannot afford another terrible draft and FA period.

I don't think you "grow" into evaluating talent. You have the eye or you don't.

cant compare players to HCs and GMs. right off the bat only 32 jobs in nfl for HCs and GMs. but the biggest reason is players have coaches to teach them. who teaches a GM and HC? yea there is a learning curve but when you start at total incompetents and there is no one in the organization above you that you can learn from........

Right, but we all know what happens when a new GM (or whatever you want to call the person) is hired without hiring their own coach. The holdover coach is kept, but everyone knows that he will be fired if he screws up. Eventually the guy is going to screw up -- fired.

Everyone has to be on the same page. Either you fire everyone or you fire no one. Those are the only two options (I guess a third would be to give Pettine personnel control, but I don't see why we would ever do that).

The first draft is really looking like a bust BUT we don't know for sure yet. The second draft is still anybody's guess so its way, way to early to worry about it. Free agency didn't help us last off season, but it's didn't help us much either unless you want to jump on Josh's bandwagon LOL. As far as the eye it's not like Farmer looks at some tape then picks whoever he wants The scouts, the coaching staff, and Farmer are all in this together. Don't think for a second that the scouts and coaches say oh we hate this guy, then Farmer extends his middle finger and drafts them anyway.

After the Baltimore game I went to the Baltimore Sun Newspaper website for stories from their perspective. Baltimore fans want to get rid rid of Ozzie worse than we want to get rid of Farmer. They think Ozzie is a worthless holdover from Modell era. They want a fresh look from a fresh GM.. perhaps a younger guy .. hungry to win.

The grass is always greener from the other guy's back yard.

Then you end up with fans who have no clue trying to act like they do bro.

Farmer is responsible for the draft picks. He makes the final decision.

It is also not fair to Erving. He was drafted as a Center, for insurance in case Mack was not fully healthy or in case Mack leaves next year. Everyone complains about an insurance policy until to need to collect on it.

Come on, GM. Let's not start w/the insults on this thread. It's been good thus far. Make your argument. It's cool. No need to insult others for having an opinion.

Please?????

Did Farmer get to pick his on staff of scouts for his first draft? Did he have time to get to know them and trust them his first year" Oh Hell no. You hate Farmer and your not giving him a fair chance. It's OK to admit that bro.