DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Continuity---Take Two

After getting to this point in this thread I'm more inclined than ever to say that Farmer needs at least another year. Even though I said it early on, but it's a stark reminder that he's only been the GM for LESS than two calendar years.

I obviously don't like the Manziel pick and am more than willing to give him all kinds of grief for the folks he didn't pick there, but Gilbert is getting out played by the other guys that were brought in. Not ideal but the goal is to get talent wherever it can be found.

I actually really like the first round of this last draft and am looking forward to seeing more. My hesitancy about him is more related to my dislike of Manziel than his other picks at thit point.

I just don't see how anyone can give Farmer ANOTHER year after WHIFFING on FOUR FIRST round picks. I'm sorry, I just don't.

Somehow..........somewhere..........there has to be a happy medium between your take and GM's.

I think people have made valid arguments on both sides.

I have wanted to really go after a couple of guy's opinions, such as Stetson's latest defense of Farmer, but I have refrained because I think it is better to see a ton of takes and then reevaluate the situation.

But man, I surely don't think there are any absolutes in this discussion, other than the team still isn't performing very well.

Keep everyone, keep no one. Those are the only two options.

you just did

Of the four first round picks, I can't say I thought they were all bad at the time, but then it isn't my job to make those picks. I thought Gilbert would be good, but I did not get to interview him like NFL teams did. Apparently, others saw some sort of problem there but Farmer did not. That pick is a disaster. I got on board with Manziel, but I didn't know he was a drunken ass. The Patriots sure did as we saw their scouting report. I loved the Shelton pick, and it might still end up just fine. But so far, he is a non-factor. And Cameron Irving, I just don't see why we need to use a first round pick to groom a center.
The point is, I am a fan. I read this board and some magazines and watch some bowl games. I need Farmer to do a little more than that before making two first-round picks every year. I don't have to prove I had 20-20 hindsight in order to say he has done a lousy job. He has done a lousy job.

How so? We could release one without the other.

If you value the pick of Alex Mack at #20, then Irving makes perfect sense at #19. Seems to show that we expect to lose Mack for next season. If however, our Oline remains intact for next season, then we will have used/wasted a valued 1st round pick on a backup/rotational/injury replacement player. IMO, I liked the pick...

Terminate Farmer's ability to sign free agents and only allow him to sign undrafted people. Don't even allow him in the war room on draft day.

He's good at finding gems in the no drafted player arena, virtually, as of this moment - a failure at anything else.

Browns should get Mattingly...at least he gets his team to the playoffs. LOL

Hiring a GM without letting him hire his own coach usually is a bad idea. I guess we could fire Pettine and not fire Farmer, but that seems like the least likely scenario.

Making changes halfway is never a good idea. It leads to the Holmgren/Mangini situation.

Except that in our structure the GM is parallel to the head coach, not above him.

If Haslam were to fire Farmer and hire a new GM, I see no reason for him to alter his authority structure.

Farmer gets to pick the players. That puts his authority over Pettine.

I can't believe people actually want to fire the GM, but not the coach. How many times has that worked?

Hickey/Philbin
Idzik/Ryan
Holmgren/Mangini

Even Farmer and Pettine has been rocky.

That's not a fact. That is an opinion.
And Haslam has said repeatedly that there will be no reboot.

Now whether he'll remain true to his word remains to be seen. I can't predict what he might do at season's end, because we really don't know him all that well. We do know that he felt the need to do some 'emergency triage' early in his ownership tenure, but has also said that he understands the need for a stable FO.


I've read a LOT of conjecture here about firings, and some members even seem convinced that dismissal(s) are a fait accompli... but for now there is only one real FACT: Haslam has not changed his tune one bit since placing these guys.

Everything else here is opinion, prediction and conjecture.

In my best Yogi Berra:
"Facts won't become facts until they become facts."

Even if Farmer is believed/seen to be weak or incompetent now - and I am starting to lean that way with the lack of progress shown with players he has drafted - your position and judgement "right after his first draft" was wrong imo. It is impossible to know what a first time GM is capable of when he was handed the reins as late as he was before Farmer's first draft. The only player that looks like an out and out bust seems to be Gilbert - JM has yet to provide enough evidence one way or another [1] whether he can get out of his own way and his own demons [2] has enough talent and mental capacity to be a starting NFL QB. . . . . Other picks are solid contributors. And unlike others I will give Farmer full credit for the drafted and undrafted rookies he signs.

A single draft in that situation is literally impossible to judge a GM on - aand dd to the rookies from last year that have yet to reach their NFL zenith - Farmers first draft included an trading for an additional first round pick this year, which would need to be included in any final analysis of farmer's performance.

Pronouncing judgement on someone's performance before there is any chance to actually see the results - - even if the forecast comes true - - is still wrong in my opinion.

I think the results on the field are a combination of both Pettine's and Farmer's failures. When a guy fails on the field, it's not all on the GM.

And if the charge was to draft a franchise QB, well Farmer might not be the only who missed. Carr is a still a work in progress and Teddy is far from a franchise QB. I'm wondering if the thought process on draft day was "all of these guys are a stretch to be a franchise QB type, let's go with who we think gives us the most upside". Right, wrong, or indifferent. Report or not. From what I've read on the insider section of the OBR, I'm pretty sure Carr was their number #1 rated QB, but they went a different direction for whatever reason. And although the report might have said Teddy is the best of the three, it might have also said that none was a guarantee and the margin between the three was small. We don't know what the report actually said. Of the three, my own personal opinion, is Bridgewater has the least upside. And none is a guarantee to be a franchise QB.

I still say we need to keep the guys we have, but bring in a president of football operations. These guys are doing the best they can, but I don't even think they know how to really get things done.

The problem is you can't just fire Farmer without a plan and there is no guarantee the next guy is going to be better.

Also, less than two years is not enough evidence of the ability to be successful long-term.

After the Browns started 7-4 last year, everyone was all in on this regime. Now, less than a year later, they are bums. We have to give these guys time. There are no magic potions here.

They've made a lot of mistakes (I talk about those mistakes often). But unless you're getting some really proven guys to come in and take their place, it's pointless to start over. It will be more harmful to start over than to let these guys continue to build what they said they are going to build.

The QB situation is a bummer because you need two things to be successful in the NFL - QB and coach. We have hitched our wagons to a 36 year old journeyman and our coach is average at best at the moment. But I don't know how starting over solves either of those issues unless, like I said, Belichek is coming in as a replacement.

what makes you think there will not be a plan? there is no guarantee the next guy is going to be worse either.

I get your thought. My thought is we don't have to have a GM, at least in the traditional sense. Scheiner could fill the role with us hiring a director of scouting who knows what he is doing and has some real say in the matter.

I like the idea of having the coach in charge of the roster. It's much easier to pinpoint the problem. I have never understood why a coach who can coach isn't qualified to identify players who can help his team. Between the two, picking players is the easy part.

As I said, you do need someone dedicated to scouting players during the college year and you need to rely on the information they provide. As I see it, our scouts either suck, or come draft time their scouting reports are more or less torn up and Farmer does whatever he wants.

That is what we as fans don't know. Is it bad information, or not paying attention to the information provided?

Yeah, so what?

Are you upset because we are not making fun of people who do not just keep repeating "we need to establish continuity?" You DO realize that is an OPINION, as well, right?

Make your arguments and points. Use logic. No need to dismiss people for having opinions or talking about a subject on a freaking message board.

You might want to read his post again.

Why? I know what his point is.

He's upset because the mantra of "we need continuity" is being challenged. My point is that the point of "we need continuity" is also an opinion.

There is a reason almost no coaches have control over the roster. Being a coach is a full workload. There is not enough time in the day to do both jobs successfully (in most cases).

The best bet is to have a GM and coach who are attached at the hip and know what each other need and want.

I don't know if we should fire everyone. But if we did, I wouldn't did be mad at a Pioli/McDaniels combo platter.

I thought he did a good job expressing his stance, pointing out the difference between fact and opinion. I didn't get the sense he was upset because people don't see things his way. His debate was vs. people saying that it's a foregone conclusion that Farmer will be fired.

Based on many claiming Haslam is in over his head, what plan would you expect?

Bad plans are still plans.

Alright.........we have had a lot of responses. No clear-cut agreement. Perhaps it is time to narrow the focus a bit.

I have seen the following options [please correct me if I miss any===seriously]

--Keep everyone because continuity is the best option.

--Fire Farmer and keep Pet, because our talent is poor and while Pet has made mistakes, it's easier to grow as a coach.

--Pet should not get a free pass and needs to go.

--Both are doing a great job [tab is really the only one who said that]

--Hire someone who oversees them both because they both need help, but we don't wanna blow it up again.

--If one goes, both have to go.

--Replacing the GM really does not effect continuity, at least not nearly as much as replacing the coaching staff.

--Fire both and hire two guys that are joined at the hip.

So, here's the assignment. Choose one to three options and discuss why that option or those options are better than the others.

If you strongly oppose any of the options, please feel free to address why they are not good options.

All I ask is this: if you don't want to respect the opinions of others and think this is all nonsense.......stay off the thread. I do think there is an option for everyone, but telling people they shouldn't talk about it serves no purpose here. Thanks for your consideration.

Okay..........I was wrong. Happy?

Can we move on w/the thread now?

I am so glad Versatile Dog is here to keep us in line. The board just falls apart when he's not around.

At this point, week seven of the 2015 season, we should keep both.

Like I said, Pet wouldn't take on the full load. He would just have final say. Then it is his bed to make or mess.

Ok. Carry on critiquing other's posts unabated.

Right. But in making the decision, wouldn't he want to know who he is signing instead of just trusting some dude who he had no say in hiring?

Seriously?

You are acting like there is only 2 weeks between the end of the season and the draft. The guy would have months to sit down with his scouts and watch tape.

Picking players isn't that complicated, especially for a coach who knows what he wants in a player.

What about the weekly moves every team makes in season? This week we signed some dude off the Chiefs practice squad.

If a coach only had to scout players for the draft in the off-season I would be fine with a move like this.