DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Why didn't Farmer follow the Steelers/Bengals draft blueprint?

I was trying to see if the 2 teams atop the AFC North had anything in common
in regards to their recent success.
I went back and looked at the recent drafts of both teams.
Both teams have drafted heavily at the skill positions on offense and LBers and DBs on defense

The Steelers in the last 3 seasons have drafted 3 WRs and 2 RBs
Coates,Bryant and Wheaton
Archer and Bell. all mid RD picks

The Bengals going back to 2012 have drafted 4 WRs 2 RBs 3 TEs
Jones,Sanu,Wright,Alford
Hill,Benard
Eifert,Kroft,Uzomah....only Eifert was a 1st RD pick

On defense the Steelers have drafted 3 LBers
Dupree
Shazier
Jones...all 1st RDers

On defense the Bengals drafted 2 CBs
Dennard
Kirkpatrick...1st RD picks.

and to boot the Steelers and Bengals draft real roadgraders at the interior o-line positions.

Its seems like Farmer walked into his GM role thinking he was too good follow the success of the Bengals/Steelers drafts.

any thoughts?

I'm guessing that both of those franchises had committed to their QBs -obviously Ben R. had been in Pitt since 2004(?) and Bengals were going with Dalton (2011) so it would seem to make sense to fill around them with skill players. Not having to waste constant first rounds with QB's does help in taking higher better skill position talent...or I would think?

Because people still believe football is won in the trenches with a running attack and neglect other positions.

because we aren't the steelers and bengals.

people keep wanting to be a clone of other teams. just because it worked for those teams doesn't mean it'll work for others.

We tried to be like the seahawks. tell me, how has that worked out so far.

I'm inclined to agree -- but then again, it's not like we're doing too well picking non-QB 1st rounders either.

I don't have strong feelings one way or the other about emphasizing skill positions, but the LB thing has always struck me as odd in the Browns' 3-4 incarnations.

I think the equation is pretty simple: whether you're a 3-4 or a 4-3, you need to be strong at all 4 and with the middle guy of the 3.

So, 4 strong LB and a strong NT, or 4 strong DL and a strong Mike.

I feel like the 3-4 Browns have always under-invested in LB.

the browns always undervalue qbs, wrs, rbs, lbs. we always wanna roll with charlie frye ,jordan norwood, jason wright, andre davis

I'm so tired of drafting OL/DL and hearing the FO say that we need to be better up front, the game is won in the trenches, we want to be the aggressor, etc ... it's all crap.

The Pats/Pack/Seattle/etc have the worst OLs in the league. It's all about the QB.

Do whatever it takes to get one.

j/c

What separates Steelers/Bengals from Cleveland is they have an identity to build around. Why does everyone think it revolves around one or two positions? If Cleveland had receivers...quarterback...play makers like so and so, they'd be great! It takes a roster and front office going in the same direction.

Bengals were not built overnight. Steelers, these last two years, are rebuilding. Ravens are doing the same.

Cleveland needs an identity. To me, Cleveland is moving toward versatile. I see them more like the Giants no one position stands out consistent play from all areas.

You need to have continuity to have an identity.

You need to have good people in place in order to achieve continuity.

You need to have a QB in place so the people look good.

The QB is the trigger point that starts the whole thing.

The Browns (or Pettine) have chosen a 36 year old journeyman QB with a losing record to get this franchise turned around. It's quite possible they want to eventually transition to a "try hard" undrafted FA QB to carry the torch.

I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.

I want continuity. I would like to give Pettine and Farmer more time, but it will be hard to feel sorry for Pettine if he gets fired. He's been handed some crap but he's also made a lot of his own bed.

I wouldn't say the Steelers are rebuilding. Every year they make the playoffs. Defensively they have had to overhaul due to age.
Funny how the Browns have the most money committed to defense and the Steelers are getting it done with youth on defense with a new DC also.
I'm not sure what kind blueprint Farmer has used when it comes to drafting.
I just know he's getting zero production out 75% of his 1st RD picks.
Shelton was drafted to be a lynch pin and be a beast at the point of attack.
he hasn't done too much. The run defense is still the worst in the NFL.

j.c. I think a real good coach with the power to have input on personnel ,and actually knows how to be a gametime coach not the jokes we keep on getting,actually when they let Shanny walk it was another huge blunder IMO.

The better teams don't rebuild, they reload. There always seems to be a few players that we never heard of fill in and do the job when they lose a top name player. I'd love to get to that point.

Simple answer: We have had some of the worst GMs that the NFL has EVER seen EVER!

We had a guy in Heckert that passed on what is now the best receiver in the entire league to trade down and draft a fat, lazy piece of crap. Of course you can go on and on and on with our GMs awful draft picks. It just wouldn't matter what positions they are drafting WHEN YOU SUCK YOU SUCK!

I disagree. Continuity is a continuous flow of quality. I am uncertain how this suddenly appears. It starts with scouting like players who meet specifics. Getting FA who server a purpose and not simply a filler. Bottom of the roster having enough talent pushing the top.

As for the QB, I am still convinced having stability allows success while developing. Dalton, who I ragged on for years, is becoming a reliable QB. Having a journeyman QB does exactly what is designed allows the offense to move forward while developing. Regardless your opinion is of Manziel. Right now he is the future. There are millions of ways you can build a mouse trap. Sitting or starting methods both showed success.

Time? You seriously need to take a step back and look at the Browns organization. We are not talking getting the right guy over another in the draft. Browns are being built from the ground up. Ownership getting started. Farmer putting together the right staff to make better decisions. It's been three years getting the front office organized. Bringing in a new GM means reshuffling the entire FO you just hired. Haslam already done it once dumping Banner for Farmer. What makes you think he catches lightning in a bottle the third time?

Pettien is the same. He finally has his guys in place. This year they work out the kinks.

Starting next year Browns will have a near complete FO and coaching staff. Cleveland will actually have an opportunity to start working like other successful teams. Why on earth do you think starting over falling behind makes a team better?

People don't realize how far back Browns organization is compared to the others. When Haslam bought the team, I'd say Browns were near a first year expansion team level.

OK lets look at those guys you are pimping
Archer Not a single start Last season, only 10 rushes and 7 receptions for the entire yesr. To be fair you would have to call him a bust however you are bragging him up

Bell.. Great Pick I would have to be nuts to disagree with that pick.

Coates through 6 games 1 reception for 11 yards... what a bum cut him he will always suck

Wheatons entire rookie year 1 game started 6 catches for 64 yards for the ENTIRE 16 game schedule OMG I see a trend with these Steelers picks their GM should be fired missing on all these bums that many Browns fans would be saying they sucked after 6 weeks of passing judgement on a guys entire career.

Martavis Bryant wait what do you mean he never even played in the first 6 games his rookie year, damn another waisted pick,

How about the Bengals?
Sanu first 6 games his rookie year 5 receptions for 56 yards no TD's

Jones 3 receptions for 26 yards in his first 6 games

Alford DNP the first 6 games.

I am not going to waist any more of my time with this garbage. If you can't see the waist of time it is to bash or ride the jockstrap of any rookie or 1st or 2nd year player then Stevie Wonder could see it better than you.

Yeah Martavis Bryant almost has as many yards as The deadly duo of Bowe/Hartline.he already has more TDs.
Your missing my point. Not only does Farmer feel WR is a unhealthy investment he's a poor evaluator at the position.
Look at the WRS he's drafted or signed as free agents.
Void of deep speed and a threat to take the top off a defense.
The LBers he brought in are average at best.

I live near Pittsburgh, and the fans there are sick of drafting WRs and LBs. They used to draft Oline consistently, and since they got ben they went another route. If they didn't have Ben, most of these WRs would e average at best.

Except Bryant looks like a more athletic Plax.

I bet they weren't complaining with Bryants Stat line last week or his td catch ratio.
Wheaton Brown Bryant all great mid round picks

Brown I will give you, but the other two have flashed, and that is about it.

So you picked players that are producing, they have many others that aren't.

We have taken four QBs in the first round since 1999. We have taken countless WRs in the first two rounds. We have taken William Green and Trent Richardson in the first round. Mingo and Wimbley at linebacker.

What are you talking about?

Agreed. The difference is they hit on a few more picks than we do and they allow a system and their coaches to stay around longer to give the system a chance to work.

OH NO I got your point very clear. You bitch and moan when the Browns players don't look like pro bowl players after a few games. BUT you brag up other teams players who don't look like pro bowl bowl players after a few games. Your making yourself look like a donkey so just keep on digging yourself a deeper hole.

AMEN bro you know we both live close to Pittsburgh engolfed by Pittsburgh fans

I bet your ass would have been complaining about him six games into his rookie season. You are complaining about Browns players six weeks into their rookie season so if you wouldn't do the same thing with STEELERS PLAYERS, then you prove you are acting like a hypocrite.

UMM excuse me but MB was not in his 6th game last week was he? It's ok for you to admit you were wrong. I already proved it so you can admit it or just continue to make yourself look bad.

This is a common thing that fans do.

It's low hanging fruit so they think they are making a point that just doesn't exist.

With the exception of the occasional stud, the Browns talent is on par with the rest of the league. The Browns have been bad for two reasons...no QB...and no continuity. These two things don't allow any players to develop.

Tyler Eifert is a perfect example. He did nothing, NOTHING, his first two years in the league. Cleveland fans would have labeled this guy a bust and run him out of town. Fortunately for Eifert he got drafted into a stable organization that has allowed him to develop and grow. Yet people use Eifert to show how great the Bengals are at drafting and how crappy the Browns are. It's ridiculous. We would have a poster on here starting threads that the guy was a bust after two games.

Talent gaps, for the most part, are myths.

AMEN buddy

Here is an excerpt from a story that you guys will find inspiring:

The Browns should look at the guy who behind the Bengals drafting. Bill Tobin's son Duke Tobin.
I don't see Shelton progressing as the run defense is still dead last in the NFL.
The Steelers only good pick is the OG...DeCastro? really.
They hit 3 picks in the 2014 Draft. They hit a major HR with Leveon Bell.
Their 1st RD pick Bud Dupree already has 3 sacks in his 1st 6 games.
whats Orchard done?
Farmer has gotten very little from his 1st 5 picks in his 1st 2 drafts.
Desir has been a good find. Bitonio has regressed in year 2.
Duke Johnson has had his moments.
Farmer had to hit HRs on his 1st and 2nd RD picks in order to close the gap in the AFC North.
it isn't happening when they holding a clipboard or trying a new position in practice.

I know people like to Bag on Cincy, but if we're being honest, coaching is the only thing holding them back.. The FO has done a great job of getting players.. Same thing with Pitt. Tomlin is a horrible coach, but he's been gifted some great drafts..Our problem is always both of ours sucks, so we can never tell if its personnel or coaching. Though the amount of players that actually go on to succeed is very low so I guess theres that..lol

Tapping stripper on the shoulder. Umm excuse me Mr Stripper would that be the one and only Duke Tobin. The guru who has had 7 picks in the first three rounds between 2014 and 2015. THAT Duke Tobin. The guy who has only one of those seven guys who is a starter.

He landed 2 starters out of that 2014 Draft and Dennard out of MSU who is a nickel back.
looks like his 2015 Draft is for the future.
look at his Drafts from 2011.
I just think anytime you take from a division rival it weakens them depending on what you take.
The Bengals have a luxury of being able to draft guys high and let them grow into their position.
Farmer has to draft immediate contributors to close the gap.

BTW Duke is not even the Bengals GM. He is not the one making picks in Cincy, unless things have changed.

"Cincinnati Bengals – Rarely is an owner successful as a talent evaluator and Mike Brown tops that list. He and head coach Marvin Lewis make the decisions because, not only do the Bengals not spend up to the salary cap, they don't have a general manager (Brown appointed himself to that position). Expect the unexpected."

http://www.scout.com/nfl/vikings/story/1179713-draft-week-who-makes-the-calls

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2011/4/29/214...zation-made-the

http://www.inquisitr.com/102880/draft-day-decision-makers-cincinnati-bengals/

They supposedly already have one - Bill Kuharich. But I'm not sure that he is "the guy". I was not overly pleased with his hire in the first place...